Digital Press /Portable/ Rarity Guide

[Bojay1997]

My post is in response to all the 'non-app' complaints people have mentioned in this thread, and how people are welcome to help out with the site. You read and even quoted my post, and yet still somehow didn't learn anything from it. Maybe YOUR time would be better spent helping out, yes? It's a simple formula - the more people that help out and contribute to something, the better the end result is.

Or you can, ya know, continue to sit back and complain like others.

That's where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think anyone other than perhaps the OP is complaining. People are just responding to the complaints of the OP that people aren't contributing by explaining why that might be. Nobody is telling him not to do anything or preventing him from continuing his fund raising efforts. Personally, I just think having a second fund raising campaign going on when the museum campaign is only 1/4 of the way funded is distracting and not a good use of resources. There's no reason this couldn't have waited for another 45 days or been structured in a different way so as not to directly compete for financial resources using the same exact Kickstarter method.

There are times when people with excess time and energy should be asked to hold back for a little while so that the timing and planning behind something can come together properly. As an example, I remember a few years ago when I was president of the local Rotary Club and we did a housing revitalization for a low income family. We had a group of kids from the local middle school who volunteered to help with the project. Having never worked with a large group of middle school kids, I failed to realize that all that energy has to be directed or it can lead to disaster. In fact, the kids happily painted the house and removed rotted boards on the porch in record time. Unfortunately, they used the interior paint on the exterior and removed most of the porch rather than just the few boards that needed to be replaced. We had to hire a professional painter and carpenter to repair the "help" they had given us. They had the best possible intentions and donated their time and gave it their all, but ultimately, they did a lot of damage because we didn't reign in and properly direct all that positive energy. Just because someone can do something doesn't necessarily mean that they should or that it has to be done right now.

I believe that people who do something as simple as participating in discussions on these forums on a daily basis provide the single most valuable contribution to DP and frankly, having an active and vibrant discussion forum in my opinion is the only way that this community can be revitalized. I have found people generally to be very generous with their time and money here at DP and elsewhere in the classic gaming community, but they are also pretty savvy and won't just jump on everything that comes along. I'm happy to help out in any way you need me to, but I would love to know specifically how I can help instead of being expected to come up with my own projects. I'm sure there are other people who are equally willing to help out, they just need some direction and structure.

[stonic]

In fact, the only time anyone has ever asked for this type of compensation up front that I can think of is when someone dumps a prototype, but even then, it's to compensate the owner for the loss of value which will be suffered once it's dumped and widely available.

Who is the prototype owner in question who feels this way? Dumping a prototype has very little - if any - affect on the value of it, any more than distributing copies of it does. Unless more than 1 prototype of the game exists, the original retains its value with collectors. Even rare, released games are not affected by having been dumped, copied, and distributed. The ROM images for such Atari VCS/2600 games like Air Raid, Cubicolor, Music Machine, and Video Life have been available for years, yet original copies of those not only are still worth thousands of dollars, their values over the past 5 years have either remained the same or increased.

That's where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think anyone other than perhaps the OP is complaining. People are just responding to the complaints of the OP that people aren't contributing by explaining why that might be. Nobody is telling him not to do anything or preventing him from continuing his fund raising efforts.

YOu JUST got done telling him his time would be better spent doing other things...
And no, complaining on forums isn't akin to contributing.

[Bojay1997]

Who is the prototype owner in question who feels this way? Dumping a prototype has very little - if any - affect on the value of it, any more than distributing copies of it does. Unless more than 1 prototype of the game exists, the original retains its value with collectors. Even rare, released games are not affected by having been dumped, copied, and distributed. The ROM images for such Atari VCS/2600 games like Air Raid, Cubicolor, Music Machine, and Video Life have been available for years, yet original copies of those not only are still worth thousands of dollars, their values over the past 5 years have either remained the same or increased.

I generally agree with you on rare released games as people generally want the original for their collection, but I have to respectfully disagree with this as it pertains to prototypes. The difference in market demand and value for a prototype before and after it's been dumped, especially for NES and later stuff, is very significant.

[Bojay1997]

Who is the prototype owner in question who feels this way? Dumping a prototype has very little - if any - affect on the value of it, any more than distributing copies of it does. Unless more than 1 prototype of the game exists, the original retains its value with collectors. Even rare, released games are not affected by having been dumped, copied, and distributed. The ROM images for such Atari VCS/2600 games like Air Raid, Cubicolor, Music Machine, and Video Life have been available for years, yet original copies of those not only are still worth thousands of dollars, their values over the past 5 years have either remained the same or increased.



YOu JUST got done telling him his time would be better spent doing other things...
And no, complaining on forums isn't akin to contributing.

I did nothing of the sort. What I said is that perhaps he should take a step back to absorb the feedback and direction from the people he is complaining won't support his project financially. If he didn't want to do that, I suggested that perhaps he would be better off contributing to the community in another way and I should have further explained that by that I meant something that was not subject to such feedback or required people to support it financially. I still am not seeing any complaining here other than by the OP. People are discussing his idea and why they aren't contributing to it financially. Those aren't complaints, but rather rational statements of fact and opinion.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

There are times when people with excess time and energy should be asked to hold back for a little while so that the timing and planning behind something can come together properly. As an example, I remember a few years ago when I was president of the local Rotary Club and we did a housing revitalization for a low income family. We had a group of kids from the local middle school who volunteered to help with the project. Having never worked with a large group of middle school kids, I failed to realize that all that energy has to be directed or it can lead to disaster. In fact, the kids happily painted the house and removed rotted boards on the porch in record time. Unfortunately, they used the interior paint on the exterior and removed most of the porch rather than just the few boards that needed to be replaced. We had to hire a professional painter and carpenter to repair the "help" they had given us. They had the best possible intentions and donated their time and gave it their all, but ultimately, they did a lot of damage because we didn't reign in and properly direct all that positive energy. Just because someone can do something doesn't necessarily mean that they should or that it has to be done right now.

I don't see this project as being heavy in the risk/damage area similar to the story you described.

There's nothing to damage in this process that I can see other than (potentially) the feelings of the developer.

But even IF it doesn't reach funding goals it can continue to be "developed" technically/conceptually and funding re-started at a later, more appropriate date.

Also, while the timing of this fund-raising attempt does seem to butt-up-against and/or run directly parallel with the Video Game History Museum, which could divide some financial backing interest from those with limited funds, it doesn't look like it's taking anything away from the Museum backing.

Also also, from what I can see it does appear that nz17 solicited some good community opinions several months back:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...wpost&t=151173

So, where the need for new computer/android hardware is debatable (I genuinely have no clue what is needed when developing something like this) if anything I can only see the timing of this being a potential issue, and that may have been one that nz17 and Joe thought would work better in tandem than separately/spaced out ... but only they can confirm that.

[Gameguy]

Those of us who have our 10 year merit badges know the forum vibe isn't the same, and some of our most prolific posters from years ago have moved on. The same goes for those who used to write the DP Feature Columns. That is the nature of things. However, parts of the site continue to be updated, such as the Easter egg compendium and Library sections, and new interviews are still being posted. DP probably now hosts more printed material, such as magazines and newsletters, than anybody. If you looking for articles, the latest run of DP newsletters (2009-10) was full of new reviews and columns - all of which are online.

Also, the 8th edition of the "classic" Collector's Guide IS coming out later this year, with a full update of the online DPG info to follow. "nz17" has also revamped the interface used for updating the online rarity guide, so editors will see their changes take effect immediately.

Lastly, rather than bemoaning the fact that something hasn't been updated, why not contribute something? Write an article, or a review for a game that we don't have. Offer to take over the Mystery Sound contest or the Ebay Insanity contest. Everyone has a MILLION things to do in their lives, and nobody has ANY time do anything. Those of us who keep the site alive, whether it's maintaining the server, moderating forums, or whatever, don't get paid for our efforts. But those who'd rather complain than contribute won't find much of an audience at DPHQ.

Since most of this seems to be aimed at what I said I might as well reply to it.

I wasn't planning on replying to this at all, I only did because the OP replied how he was surprised that nobody had donated anything at that point. That's why I mentioned the things I did, that and because of one of the things he said. There's more but I'm not going to quote everything.

Why should I use the Digital Press Portable Rarity Guide instead of some other collector app?

Besides for the long and prestigious history of Digital Press as the de facto authority on games' rarity and prices and being the go-to place for all things video games and collecting...

Looking through the guide as it is I can't see it as the authority on pricing like the OP describes, and while Digital Press certainly has a prestigious history I pointed out that the majority of things that set it apart from other sites or forums/communities are long dead. As for all things video games, I check out articles and reviews from other sites instead, honestly I never found the basic reviews here to be accurate in terms of my own tastes. If I was skilled at writing articles I would have contributed some of my own, I enjoyed reading the ones here but I read ones on other sites now so that void has been filled. Again I wasn't planning to complain, I just wanted to point out why people weren't donating money as much as the OP hoped.

That and the whole thing sounds like a pitch on an infomercial. If you can't contribute funds we should tell everyone we know about the app. What happens if we do? They'll check out the current guide now to see if the app is worth buying, they'll see the current guide is innaccurate and just forget about buying the app when it comes out.


Once the updated guide comes out it would be nice to check it for accuracy. Looking through the guide it seems that several errors I previously pointed out over a year ago have been corrected which is nice to see, I'm not sure when that happened but I'm happy about it. Still I see entries like Shantae listed at $5 so I can't really rely on prices, even if most are accurate how can I know if an entry is one that's accurate or one that's not? Either I already know the value of a game or I have to check another site to verify it, I could just avoid the DP listing all together and get an accurate price estimate.

Plus what about non-US games? Will those have rarities and prices added? Or part numbers? When I found a bunch of PC Engine games I couldn't find the name of them here as I can't read Japanese and the part numbers weren't listed, luckily I found a PC Engine site that had a database which included the part numbers so I could look them up. This is the type of stuff where I could use a guide on the go, I already know prices for obvious stuff like Snatcher or Panzer Dragoon Saga but not many imports. None of this stuff was mentioned in the pitch, all that was described was that the app will contain lots of rarities, prices, easter eggs, etc. I took it that the app was going to be the online rarity guide as is, the main reason described as why to use this instead of the online guide is because you won't need internet access to use it.


I still stick around because I like the forums and the people here, I haven't really checked out anything else in awhile and I don't really have a need to. I'm not into video games as much as I was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago, I just don't need to research stuff like I used to. I'll still check out the library though, I didn't know it was still being updated, on the main page the last interview listed was from 2006 which threw me off because I just kept checking the main page for updates.

[Flack]

Would we stand in the way of anybody who wants to run 12 days of Christmas, the Mystery Sound contest or the Zine? I don't think so ... at least I've never seen any such resistance from those who are in the position to say "Go for it!" ... so, why not just let this one play out on its own?

I'm all for letting this "play out on its own," but all the things you mentioned were done by people who volunteered their time. I don't believe anyone paid Kid Ice's rent while he was editing the zine, or bought Grand Am Chandler a computer for running the 12 Days of Christmas. And I know I never got a cent for running the MAME Club ... or writing for the Zine ... or writing for the DP Wire ... or writing Extended Play ... or writing MAMExpose ... or managing the articles section ... or writing the original DP Mailing List from scratch ... or getting the DP Room of Doom Gallery up and running ... or calling tech support night after night to have the DP server rebooted ... etc.

Like anyone else who's ever donated any of their talents of time to making DP a better community, I gladly did all those things for free because I felt like I was reinvesting my time into a site that I loved. To be honest I'm sure I'm not even in the top 20 list of people who have worked on this site for free in their free time. Guys like Stonic and Arcade Antics and some of those guys have put hundreds if not thousands of hours into this site.

So, sorry, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. And it feels a little awkward to donate toward an app that's using the DP collection lists, which (a) are available free here for download, and (b) were compiled by a bunch of DP forum members, none of whom were (as far as I know) compensated for their hard work.

The outcome of this specific Kickstarter (not the museum one) will be interesting, and I wonder how many people will continue to work on DP projects without being compensated?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I'm all for letting this "play out on its own," but all the things you mentioned were done by people who volunteered their time. I don't believe anyone paid Kid Ice's rent while he was editing the zine, or bought Grand Am Chandler a computer for running the 12 Days of Christmas. And I know I never got a cent for running the MAME Club ... or writing for the Zine ... or writing for the DP Wire ... or writing Extended Play ... or writing MAMExpose ... or managing the articles section ... or writing the original DP Mailing List from scratch ... or getting the DP Room of Doom Gallery up and running ... or calling tech support night after night to have the DP server rebooted ... etc.

Like anyone else who's ever donated any of their talents of time to making DP a better community, I gladly did all those things for free because I felt like I was reinvesting my time into a site that I loved. To be honest I'm sure I'm not even in the top 20 list of people who have worked on this site for free in their free time. Guys like Stonic and Arcade Antics and some of those guys have put hundreds if not thousands of hours into this site.

So, sorry, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. And it feels a little awkward to donate toward an app that's using the DP collection lists, which (a) are available free here for download, and (b) were compiled by a bunch of DP forum members, none of whom were (as far as I know) compensated for their hard work.

The outcome of this specific Kickstarter (not the museum one) will be interesting, and I wonder how many people will continue to work on DP projects without being compensated?

Sorry if my position was unclear ... I wasn't attempting to make a qualitative comparison of past/present DP volunteer contributers to nz17's call for donations.

I was more addressing the fact that nobody in a position to do so ever told those people not to manage the zine, not to run the xmas contests, not to organize the secret santa, make the mystery sound page, etc. because there was little/no "need" or "interest" in those things.

Maybe I'm reading into it wrong, but I just feel that there's a wicked defeatist attitude in the face of proposed new projects lately.

Where the volunteer segment of the DP community is concerned, working for free is an excellent & noble thing for sure, there's no argument there.

All of us who have contributed to DP through volunteering on the website, the guide, the forums, IRC, NAVA, the DP Store, local events, CGE, PAX, E3 all deserve a huge pat on the back ...

... however, from what little I know about ground-up software development the choice to ask for donation-based funding on this project seems reasonable to me, and in a no-risk situation like Kickstart, ultimately there's no damage to be done if it doesn't reach its goal.

But even if people do think a call for donations is not appropriate, why not - instead of offering up cash - offer some positive creative solutions like lending of materials/hardware to offset the need for monetary donations?

Isn't that what a community like this is supposed to do? Help each other where there's a common goal?

[goatdan]

Lastly, rather than bemoaning the fact that something hasn't been updated, why not contribute something? Write an article, or a review for a game that we don't have. Offer to take over the Mystery Sound contest or the Ebay Insanity contest. Everyone has a MILLION things to do in their lives, and nobody has ANY time do anything. Those of us who keep the site alive, whether it's maintaining the server, moderating forums, or whatever, don't get paid for our efforts. But those who'd rather complain than contribute won't find much of an audience at DPHQ.

I'm not sure if you were directing this at me or not, but I was offering some suggestions based on the fact that nz17 was asking for them. I wasn't trying to step on any toes or anything like that.

The fact is, I personally don't have much time to devote to much of anything nowadays. It's why I post relatively rarely on here. I spend my free time raising my young son, running the GOAT Store, and organizing the Midwest Gaming Classic. I'd love to have a bunch more hours of free time, but I don't.

I will say this though -- I learned a long time ago and still believe it to this day, the best projects that you can do are ones that you feel really strongly about. With the MGC, there have been times where other organizers have come to me with things that I don't necessarily agree with doing. If by challenging them, they can come back with a better plan and they are still convinced to do it, usually I end up agreeing with them. If by challenging them, they drop the idea right away, it means that it wasn't that great of an idea to begin with. I can sit on the phone and have discussions (or 'debates') with other organizers that from an outside standpoint would look like we were fighting, but at the end of the day, it makes for a better show and everyone knows that.

Even when I first started posting here, I thought that the price guides were off. That isn't a knock on anyone -- it's just that prices fluctuate like mad, so trying to put a price on anything for a year at a time is a tough proposition, I think. I still appreciate that the rarity guides are there, and sometimes I will use them to try to better figure out the price or rarity of a game that I just picked up for putting it up on the GOAT Store. But, if the goal is to make the DP guide the standard for pricing, I think it needs to be stepped back from and looked at.

From another hobby I have, pinball, there are some people who put out a price guide every year. In looking at that guide, there are almost always games that seem to be grossly either underpriced or overpriced. It's tough to get a guide that really works for everyone and everything, and it is something that I don't envy anyone for trying to do. Having said that, in today's day and age of Amazon, eBay and the Internet in general having seemingly one of everything for sale at any given point in time, it makes me wonder if price guides are even something you really can do any more.

Before the rise of online sales, I feel like the Funcoland papers were a great way to price things -- you could pick one up, and theoretically at least find that game for that price at a Funcoland. But, with the online marketplace being a free marketplace, it makes it a lot more difficult. A rarity guide I think is a lot easier to do, and potentially more useful too.

Having said that, I see a lot of games go through my hands every year, and even I don't think I would be comfortable trying to write up a rarity guide for many consoles. It is a massive, massive task, and one which sadly I do think lends itself more to having people challenge each other to figure out which things are wrong and slowly working itself out right than anything else.

I'd love to help improve those guides -- I've talked with Joe in the past about how I'd like to eventually have the DP rarity on each product page so people knew right there, and I do for the most part feel like the rarity is pretty much spot on -- but I really don't know how much I would feel comfortable doing.

Again though, I like the idea -- but if it could be tweaked to be a rarity guide with checklist, with the option for me to make the checklists custom to be the things that I am interested in collecting, it would be awesome for me. I have not (and don't want to) spend the time to add the PAL Dreamcast games to my PDA one at a time, but I'd be all over it (and paying for it!) as an app for a device, if I had said device. I hope we can use constructive criticism to make the device even better.

[ProgrammingAce]

If you're asking for a salary for the app up front, the app should be free in the marketplace. You're asking for the community to pay you to produce the app, then asking them to pay again to use it.

I don't find myself agreeing with a lot of directions DP has gone the last few years, this one just seems insulting. You're taking 10 years of work volunteered by other individuals and using that to make a profit for yourself.

Instead of using the app as read-only, make it actually useful and interesting. If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone. People are complaining about the database inaccurate, you're not thinking of ways to help fix it. Granted, someone will have to verify the changes, but that's why you're making $5 a copy. Justify your paycheck somehow.

[stonic]

If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone.

There's never been a consensus over prices or rarity values, and you want to give everyone the ability to change them?! Not just no, but hell no.

[ProgrammingAce]

I've said for years that prices should be removed from the database anyway. rarity is subjective, but at least let people edit missing games, spelling errors, etc... People complain about the guide being wrong, give them a way to fix it.

[Nz17]

Preface: this is going to be a long post.

I don't think anyone other than perhaps the OP is complaining.

Just like everyone else here, "I'm not complaining." I'm just lamenting the state of things and acknowledging those who have vowed to contribute to give them thanks.

Personally, I just think having a second fund raising campaign going on when the museum campaign is only 1/4 of the way funded is distracting and not a good use of resources.

I'm sure that as I have Joe's direct approval on this matter that he is fine and dandy with it. Actually, from his perspective he is worried that the Museum project is overshadowing the App project! Personally I see them as two very different things for different audiences so there should be little danger of "toe stepping" but rather a positive synergy. I hope the app actually brings attention to all of the other facets of Digital Press to a new audience to help grow the existing audience.

There's no reason this couldn't have waited for another 45 days or been structured in a different way so as not to directly compete for financial resources using the same exact Kickstarter method.

Behind the scenes, there are very good reasons for this project happening now.

I'm happy to help out in any way you need me to, but I would love to know specifically how I can help instead of being expected to come up with my own projects. I'm sure there are other people who are equally willing to help out, they just need some direction and structure.

Just take the initiative like I did back around October 2010 or so and send a Private Message to The Leader, Joe Santulli (DigitalPress on the forum) and ask how and where you can help.

This is the greatest idea ever. Let's hope the prices get updated frequently though, some of the prices on the old digitpress guide are very out of date.

Yes, those online and printed copies are quite old for the most part. However I have personally crafted and already deployed software which, when mass utilized this summer/fall, will cause the Guide to be as up-to-date as the Master Copy and then some! Plus with its ease-of-use, the Guide will be kept as recent as digitally possible by its Trusted Contributors.

do you think you might support barcode scan support like eBay redlight eventually? I would be great to find a boxed game, take a picture of the barcode, and then know exactly what the game is worth/what rarity it is just from that.

Exactly, we will eventually have this feature + 1... for you see, many games are missing boxes or UPC codes, so this app will recognize games from the cover alone as well!

Kickstarter is an amazing tool, but it should never be used as a means of notifying the vast majority of a potential audience to a project. Discussions should be had before hand to determine whether something is needed or wanted long before a fund drive is put together.

Like five months ago?

Frankly, it also seems very risky to distract energy and funds from the museum effort by launching a second project at exactly the same time.

The App project was launched eight days after the Museum project, and the App project will end twenty-one days before the Museum one. That's hardly the same. What do you want, us to wait until we know the Museum is a success? That's quite some time away!

Perhaps someone from the team at DP could do a sticky post in one of the main forums outlining which projects or aspects of the site could use some extra help so that people with relevant skills can volunteer to take them on. I think most active users on here would be happy to contribute.

I'm all for that.

I've said for years that prices should be removed from the database anyway. rarity is subjective, but at least let people edit missing games, spelling errors, etc... People complain about the guide being wrong, give them a way to fix it.

There's a site for that at http://vgcollect.com/ - feel free to help out that community project if you wish as they do appreciate contributions. But as for the DP Guide, there's a whole forum section here dedicated to pointing out needed changes. Have at it.

Just to clarify, as I read his proposal, he is going to only develop the app for Android right now and I would assume an iOS version would require a separate fund raising and development effort.

You shouldn't assume, you should reread. As noted in my initial posts on this subject, "However the underlying technology which will be used to create the app, called PhoneGap, is fundamentally cross-platform in nature and allows for easy release to additional platforms. Therefore upon the success of the Android version further versions for other popular platforms will be rapidly released."

Why "upon the success of the Android version?" Because those app purchases' revenue will be used to fund the purchase of an Intel-based Macintosh computer, as unlike Windows Phone 7, Blackberry, WebOS, Android, etc., iOS is the only one which requires a more expensive and uncommon Mac.

So no, there won't be any additional fundraisers for this app if this first fundraiser is successful. The app will be self-sustaining for future releases.

It seems like the suggestion someone else brought up to create a more universal mobile version of the DP site would better address this issue.

It might, but that wouldn't support the Guide or its Contributors. And though it hasn't been mentioned until now, proceeds from app sales will be finding their way back to the Contributors and Digital Press too to help fund the site and other projects. As for mobile site usage, I suggest Opera Mini or Tapatalk.

I think another critical issue here is that he is looking for people to pay for his investment of time up front and is asking us to buy him a new computer and Android phone which is not something I have seen other people do here or elsewhere in classic gaming communities.

I'm sorry, but I need to prototype and debug the app somehow, and a viably modern computer and actual hardware running Android OS are the most direct route. I only have a ten year old computer here which while good for basic development and Web surfing is inadequate for running the Android SDK or emulator.

And if you haven't seen people in the classic gaming community ask for money up-front for projects, you need to look harder or wider.

It's not a completely charitable effort and I'm not saying it's an inappropriate approach necessarily to expect some compensation for hard work, but it's not like he is stepping forward and assuming all of the risk or volunteering his time.

Should I assume all risk while volunteering, or should we not have a "first penguin?" I'd rather not be orca food.

Finally, I find it troubling that the OP posts several times lamenting the fact that people aren't contributing and then ignores most of those posts explaining why people aren't sold on the idea, instead focusing on the fact that in one week, only a single contribution has been made.

Most of those people did not closely read what I wrote in the first post or the Kickstarter page and are mentioning things that are not really a major dilemma. Either that, or saying they don't have a smart phone or Android device or would pay for something like this, in which case, why listen to people who aren't your customers? I am more concerned with what those who do have a smart phone and are willing to pay for this app want.

You're asking for the community to pay you to produce the app, then asking them to pay again to use it.

Stop spreading this myth and actually read the Kickstarter page. At the $5 contribution level, you get a copy of the app for your pledge. Yes, that's right, PEOPLE WILL ONLY PAY FOR THE APP ONCE. Contribute now and get the app right on day one, or sit on your thumbs and get the app down the road. Either way, same price.

You're taking 10 years of work volunteered by other individuals and using that to make a profit for yourself.

What, are you going to next bemoan about people making money from Web sites on the Internet? Clearly those are technologies created by the collaborative efforts of volunteers with others building atop them with no compensation to the original contributors. Or the fact that the printed Guides see cash go to those who organize DP's efforts and isn't distributed down the chain to all the volunteers who are Guide Contributors who choose to devote their spare time and effort at no charge? Perhaps the Printed Guides and the Online Guide and the app will all manifest themselves out of our collective good will instead of requiring work and money? Some people are willing to take that cost as a lump on the chin and try to make it back after years of effort, but I'd rather ask for the community's help.

And further to the point, I am giving 15% of all the profits from app sales back to Joe to use as he sees fit. I was hoping the "community" would give me the benefit of the doubt and not think I would just take without giving. Mayhaps Joe will use that money to pay for the substantial hosting costs of this site, a Web site which has been nothing but a financial burden since the beginning. Perchance those funds might be used to compensate Guide Contributors, or maybe to financially back the Museum. The choice is up to him. But don't dare say I don't or won't give back.

If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone. People are complaining about the database inaccurate, you're not thinking of ways to help fix it. Granted, someone will have to verify the changes, but that's why you're making $5 a copy. Justify your paycheck somehow.

My "paycheck" doesn't need to be justified, and that isn't what's being justified here anyway. ProgrammingAce, have you ever even developed a commercial app for sale? The cost of the Price Guide app - which is not pure profit in the bank as most app stores take 10%-30% and that doesn't include investment in hardware or worker's time - is for the cost of development and continued development of the app and new features. A widespread and open contribution channel from hundreds or thousands of users would be much more work to manage than developing and improving the software itself! And as I am merely the potential developer, I don't have a call on how Guide information is handled - that is Joe's call, and he chooses to prefer a cadre of 60 trusted contributors instead of relying on the thousands of unknowns.

Again though, I like the idea -- but if it could be tweaked to be a rarity guide with checklist, with the option for me to make the checklists custom to be the things that I am interested in collecting, it would be awesome for me. I have not (and don't want to) spend the time to add the PAL Dreamcast games to my PDA one at a time, but I'd be all over it (and paying for it!) as an app for a device, if I had said device. I hope we can use constructive criticism to make the device even better.

GOATDan, read the original post again. A checklist feature to mark the games you have, want, and have for trade, as well as condition, included items, and notes for each, will be an included feature.

Thanks for your interest, everyone!

[portnoyd]

My "paycheck" doesn't need to be justified, and that isn't what's being justified here anyway. ProgrammingAce, have you ever even developed a commercial app for sale?

He has, they're called Tony Hawk Ride and Tony Hawk Shred. You may have heard of them. Not to mention working on BFA. While on a higher scale than your project, I think it's fair to say he knows what he's talking about.

I do agree that the fundraising effort for the app is poorly timed versus the museum app. It could have waited until the museum kickstarter period ended. I also agree with Flack that of all the DP initiatives, why does this one need funding?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

If you're asking for a salary for the app up front, the app should be free in the marketplace. You're asking for the community to pay you to produce the app, then asking them to pay again to use it.

I don't find myself agreeing with a lot of directions DP has gone the last few years, this one just seems insulting. You're taking 10 years of work volunteered by other individuals and using that to make a profit for yourself.

Instead of using the app as read-only, make it actually useful and interesting. If you're going to give people access to the DP database, allow them to make updates and corrections straight from their phone. People are complaining about the database inaccurate, you're not thinking of ways to help fix it. Granted, someone will have to verify the changes, but that's why you're making $5 a copy. Justify your paycheck somehow.

The fact that contributers of $5 and above don't have to pay for the app on its release aside,

you do realize that the analog guides are/were not 100% charitable projects which similarly took years of work volunteered by individuals and published them in a sale-able format?

I'm not certain what the profit margin is/was on the analog guides (if at all) but even if JUST the cost of printing was paid to the printers, A.) there were community-involved individuals who (I assume) contributed to the guide database with knowledge that it could/would be sold in some form and that they'd not be receiving any direct monetary compensation and B.) parties/contractors were involved in the production of the guide (printers) that saw some level of financial compensation for their work.

If nz17 wants to consider his work on this akin to the analog printer who printed, bound and shipped the guides to Joe, I think that's fair. He's providing a service on his own time that Joe and/or the community can not that requires some level of financial support. He's clearly detailed why he needs hardware in the process. If you don't want to donate, nobody is twisting your arm.

I don't recall any similar public outcry over the analog guides ... though, granted based on the age of those projects there may have easily been some that I'm just unaware of.

Just devil's advocate, did you make any level of profit on your BioForceApe project, or is it 100% calculated to be the cost of materials only?

[stonic]

I've said for years that prices should be removed from the database anyway. rarity is subjective, but at least let people edit missing games, spelling errors, etc... People complain about the guide being wrong, give them a way to fix it.

Personally I'm with you - I'd rather see rarity values, and the DPG did do away with prices once, actually. But people cried a river over it, so they were put back in. The DP Guide prices and values are just that - a guide. They're not stone tablets from Mount Sinai. As nz17 already mentioned, there's been a dedicated forum here for years for all DPG-related questions and concerns:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14

[skaar]

There's actually no way to give away free copies of the app in the marketplace after publication, devs get 50 codes tops for promo/etc.

Android I guess you could spread the APK around.

This really seems an odd direction to take on this whole process - unless you're buying devices to test on this seems more like something that would be taken on in someone's own time and profited from after release rather than a cash up front project. Do you have dev costs/subcontractors to pay on this?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

There's actually no way to give away free copies of the app in the marketplace after publication, devs get 50 codes tops for promo/etc.

Android I guess you could spread the APK around.

This really seems an odd direction to take on this whole process - unless you're buying devices to test on this seems more like something that would be taken on in someone's own time and profited from after release rather than a cash up front project. Do you have dev costs/subcontractors to pay on this?

Hmmm...

AFIAK unless they've changed the way that the OS functions since I was an Android user, users could easily install the app with an APK installer (no fancy jailbreaking or anything needed) if nz17 wanted to distribute the commercial release that way to those who have pledged.

The only drawback being that it won't be tied to the marketplace to recognize OTA patches/updates. But, he could just as easily send updates that way as well.

[skaar]

They could install with the APK installer, that's never a problem. It's on iOS the functionality's limited.

[ProgrammingAce]

There's a site for that at http://vgcollect.com/ - feel free to help out that community project if you wish as they do appreciate contributions. But as for the DP Guide, there's a whole forum section here dedicated to pointing out needed changes. Have at it.

So you're spending all of this time to make an app that uses and relies on the DP database and the only way to submit a correction is to go to a PC, log in to DP, post on a forum, and hope that one of the database maintainers fixes it. Instead of using the application that's already in their hand...

Why "upon the success of the Android version?" Because those app purchases' revenue will be used to fund the purchase of an Intel-based Macintosh computer, as unlike Windows Phone 7, Blackberry, WebOS, Android, etc., iOS is the only one which requires a more expensive and uncommon Mac.

Since you're asking for donations to purchase a new PC, why not buy the Mac from that? You could do the Android and iOS versions from the same system, and not require the purchase of an additional PC.

Should I assume all risk while volunteering, or should we not have a "first penguin?" I'd rather not be orca food.

How is this volunteering? You're being paid up front, and after the application is delivered. You're asking everyone else to take the risk. We have to trust that after paying you $4,600, you'll produce an app. It seems a reasonable risk, but the risk is on us, not you. Take a look at sourceforge for all the applications that started with good intentions, but were never completed.

Stop spreading this myth and actually read the Kickstarter page. At the $5 contribution level, you get a copy of the app for your pledge. Yes, that's right, PEOPLE WILL ONLY PAY FOR THE APP ONCE. Contribute now and get the app right on day one, or sit on your thumbs and get the app down the road. Either way, same price.

Maybe i wasn't clear. I'm not claiming you're charging any individual twice, but the community as a whole. Your only real audience for this app is the DP community, which is the same community you're asking for donations from. On that note, how exactly will you be giving the free copies of the iOS version to the people who donate? As Skaar said, you have a limited number of free codes for a published iOS app.

What, are you going to next bemoan about people making money from Web sites on the Internet?

This is just rude and disingenuous.

ProgrammingAce, have you ever even developed a commercial app for sale?

Yes, as any long time and active member of the community should be able to tell you...

The cost of the Price Guide app - which is not pure profit in the bank as most app stores take 10%-30% and that doesn't include investment in hardware or worker's time - is for the cost of development and continued development of the app and new features.

You're asking for DP members to pay all of your upfront costs, including the hardware and worker's time. It seems improper to use that as a justification for the cost of the app as well...