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Thread: Is there really that big of a difference between S-Video and RGB on SNES?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisbid View Post
    yes, that is the setup. the one issue is the scart > component adapter does not have audio, so i found a switchbox with an additional av port to use for audio. the switch box isnt too expensive, i believe it was around 12 dollars.

    http://www.maplin.co.uk/scart-multiw...h-switch-43158

    i have the 5-way (one port is an AV in) version with the additional a/v output
    chrisbid, do you notice any loss of picture quality by using that switch box versus connecting a console directly to your component video converter? I encountered a discussion of SCART switch boxes on Segasaturn.co.uk and there was some concern that push button switchers don't do as good a job at isolating the individual SCART sockets, potentially resulting in noise when multiple devices are connected. The audio out jacks on the switcher you linked to make it pretty appealing, hopefully there's no such signal muckery going on with it.

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    Key (Level 9) chrisbid's Avatar
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    i havent noticed, but i havent extensively tested it either

    i would imagine the degradation would be the same as using a component, s-video, or composite switchbox. ive noticed a far bigger degradation by using crappy cables, than i have with a switchbox. im sure there are videophiles out there that can scientifically measure how good a signal is and show how much degradation a switchbox produces. but the leap in quality especially for the genesis and neo geo far outpaces any loss a switchbox is responsible for.

    funny story on auto switches, my friend had an automatic scart convertor, and it would strangely power up other consoles attached to it, and then it would get a weird mixed signal. it couldve been a faulty box, but "signal muckery" (awesome term, btw) was the norm with the auto switchbox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisbid View Post
    but the leap in quality especially for the genesis and neo geo far outpaces any loss a switchbox is responsible for.
    That's an excellent point - it's fairly pointless sweating over a loss of picture quality that would be largely imperceptible when you're experiencing that jump from composite to converted RGB, but at the same time, it's nice to know that the switcher itself is doing a good job. When I decide to take the RGB plunge, I'll keep those switch boxes from Maplin in mind, they do seem pretty classy.

    There was unanimous support for a MadCatz SCART switch box in that thread I linked to in my last post. The main distinction with the MadCatz swticher is that, rather than push button selectors, it features a sliding switch which is, apparently, the superior mechanism for the noble act of signal preservation.

    http://www.consolesandgadgets.com/ca...or-p-1954.html

    No convenient audio out on that one, though.

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    This may sound obvious but the biggest boost to old console pictures won't be seen without a good CRT. I have most of my consoles running on RGB and the difference isn't that great on a cheap Mitsubishi TV I have in the bedroom and the picture looks terrible on my LCD telly.

    On the other hand, when I run any of my consoles in RGB on my Panasonic CRT the improvement is astounding. Sharp, crisp and vibrant, all my consoles look much, much nicer.

    I can't stress enough the importance of CRT for old consoles. Afterall, they were designed around this technology and some systems/games even rely on things like raster scanning etc for smoothing, extra colours and special effects.

    In short, buy a good quality RGB telly or monitor (I recommend Panasonic or Sony) and decent RGB cables.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Lambrini View Post
    This may sound obvious but the biggest boost to old console pictures won't be seen without a good CRT. I have most of my consoles running on RGB and the difference isn't that great on a cheap Mitsubishi TV I have in the bedroom and the picture looks terrible on my LCD telly.

    On the other hand, when I run any of my consoles in RGB on my Panasonic CRT the improvement is astounding. Sharp, crisp and vibrant, all my consoles look much, much nicer.

    I can't stress enough the importance of CRT for old consoles. Afterall, they were designed around this technology and some systems/games even rely on things like raster scanning etc for smoothing, extra colours and special effects.

    In short, buy a good quality RGB telly or monitor (I recommend Panasonic or Sony) and decent RGB cables.

    excellent point. NOW is the time to be on the lookout for a good quality CRT monitor/tv. thrift stores have plenty of them and they are as cheap as they ever will be. in a few years, they will be much harder to come by.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel View Post
    That's an excellent point - it's fairly pointless sweating over a loss of picture quality that would be largely imperceptible when you're experiencing that jump from composite to converted RGB, but at the same time, it's nice to know that the switcher itself is doing a good job. When I decide to take the RGB plunge, I'll keep those switch boxes from Maplin in mind, they do seem pretty classy.

    There was unanimous support for a MadCatz SCART switch box in that thread I linked to in my last post. The main distinction with the MadCatz swticher is that, rather than push button selectors, it features a sliding switch which is, apparently, the superior mechanism for the noble act of signal preservation.

    http://www.consolesandgadgets.com/ca...or-p-1954.html

    No convenient audio out on that one, though.

    besides audio out, another feature of the switch is each of the switch buttons is independent of one another. its not a device where you push one button in, and the other button pops back out. that may help avoid "signal leakage" between the various connections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c0ldb33r View Post
    I'd get in some svideo cables for snes. If you do another group purchase let us know
    I'd totally be on board too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Informationator View Post

    Whereas a couple of those cables cost me around 15 bucks, the jump to a top-notch RGB setup (XRGB-3, GCN SCART cable, and euro-to-JAP conversion...) would be 40-50x more expensive.

    Anyone care to chime in? :P
    15 x 40 = 600...

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    Quote Originally Posted by danny_galaga View Post
    15 x 40 = 600...
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-S-NEW-Mico...#ht_3974wt_944

    The baseline price on ebay for an X-RGB3 alone is 534 bucks and just goes up from there so yeah he was actually pretty spot on with that. lol However unless your converting a ton of equipment from one signal type to another or just want teh very very best you can get for you Console-LCD transfers it seems excessive. For the of what he posted (unless he was planing on using it for the other stuff) its easy to get the Console-Scart-Converter-To settup for less then 70 bucks.

    Speaking of which I've been reading about the X-RBG3 and I am really wondering about its basic function. Is it so desired just for its ability to add scanlines to old consoles or am I missing a huge chunk of the picture here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamburglar View Post
    I've gone through about all the internal hardware revisions on the original SNES and they all have poor RGB picture quality, some are better than others, RGB on the original model SNES is very blurry for some reason. Every Super Famicom I've come across has the same problem.
    Hate to bump an old thread, but I've been thinking about this recently and I'm trying to figure out why this is. Perhaps the SFC and SNES use composite video for sync instead of a proper sync signal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApolloBoy View Post
    Hate to bump an old thread, but I've been thinking about this recently and I'm trying to figure out why this is. Perhaps the SFC and SNES use composite video for sync instead of a proper sync signal?
    I doubt it has anything to do with that, on the model 2 I have my monitor is taking sync off of the composite video line, looks great.

    In fact a while back I bypassed the RGB/Video encoder on a model 1 PCB I had laying around, and installed an RGB amplifier, the picture looked a bit better but was still soft. Looks like the PPU is outputting the video that way... didn't look at it with a scope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamburglar View Post
    I doubt it has anything to do with that, on the model 2 I have my monitor is taking sync off of the composite video line, looks great.

    In fact a while back I bypassed the RGB/Video encoder on a model 1 PCB I had laying around, and installed an RGB amplifier, the picture looked a bit better but was still soft. Looks like the PPU is outputting the video that way... didn't look at it with a scope.
    It might be. I'd suggested earler in this topic RGB quality issues could be part of the hardware for Genesis.

    I hadn't even considered SNES... But don't see a particular reason to rule out the idea, now that it's on the table.
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    I just got around to looking at the comparison images in the OP. The composite shots seem far worse than what I see on my Sony CRT using composite from a Super NES. Yes, I can see very slight rainbowing on thin white lines, but no where near as bad as in the comparison shots. The Earthbound scene in particular is much worse than what I see here.

    I suspect the comb filter in the video capture card is rather poor. I am not discounting the benefit of s-video, but the comparison shots in the OP are much worse than what a regular person will see with a Sony Wega CRT.

    I still use composite for my Super NES. I'd use s-video, but my TV only has a single s-video input, and it is in use by my PSone. I'd get a switch box, but they all seem to have flaws due to cheap build quality (crosstalk, etc). I want a switch box that is literally a switch box, as in an A/B switch with physical connections changing inside the box. Not just a passive electronic box that changes the signal path in the circuitry. I see some mentions in this thread of a "slider" switch and that sounds in line with what I want.

    Any suggestions for a true A/B switch box with s-video support?

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    s-video is just overrated. There isn't a particular flaw of note.

    I don't blame people for not wanting to invest in better. RGB can be frustrating and expensive to handle. Despite its rarely achieved BAR NONE quality that when done right stands up proud next to component.
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    On my CRT sets S-Video makes a huge difference in colors and image clarity. On some sets with really advanced comb filters the difference between Composite and S-Video can be muted, but the actual image quality between the two is actually as big as Composite to Component or RGB. I actually consider S-Video equal to RGB, and Component equal to HDMI, so long as the resolutions are the same in the comparison.

    To the OP, for years I have preferred playing SNES over Composite rather than S-Video because of all of the low resolution aliasing that S-Video exposes. Now that I have an RGB to HDMI adapter for my Genesis and Master System though, I am starting to enjoy the higher quality colors and find myself more able to overlook aliasing and dithering that is exposed by the better quality video.

    Sticking strictly to native hardware support, I tend to prefer having the following cables for these systems:

    NES: Composite
    Master System: Composite/RGB
    Genesis-Sega CD-32X: Composite/RGB (32X has very good Composite)
    TG16/DUO: Composite (requires a mod for RGB, but DUO/R has great Composite
    SNES: Composite/S-Video
    3DO: S-Video
    Jaguar: S-Video
    Saturn: S-Video
    N64: S-Video
    PS1/PS2: Component
    Dreamcast: VGA to Component
    Xbox: Component
    Gamecube: Component
    etc.
    Last edited by sheath; 02-14-2012 at 07:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theclaw View Post
    s-video is just overrated. There isn't a particular flaw of note.

    I don't blame people for not wanting to invest in better. RGB can be frustrating and expensive to handle. Despite its rarely achieved BAR NONE quality that when done right stands up proud next to component.
    S-video isn't overrated at all if you have a good TV that supports it. The leap from composite to s-video on any system I've used it with have been well worth the cost of the cables. Even made the text that was unreadable over composite in a few PS3 games readable before I got my HDTV.

    And I'm sure RGB is better than s-video, but sets supporting RGB just haven't been common in the US, so for most of us that's why s-video was the way to go before systems started using component and HDMI.

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    I think it's overrated. I'm also not interested in comparing still pictures. Video games are moving images, that's what has to be compared. Watching this one I still can't notice a big difference.

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    Wow, the dot crawl in that video with composite is far worse than what I see on my TV. It must be the capture cards these people are using. There are visible diagonal lines! S-video is vastly sharper than composite, but composite with a digital comb filter looks much better than what these examples are showing.

    There was a time that I preferred the composite look, but I switched to s-video for my PSone and I quickly became used to it. Dithering and fake-transparency have a more pronounced checkerboard pattern, but after seeing the checkerboard, I couldn't un-see it even with composite. The increase in color clarity and sharpness are worth the effort. I just had to turn down the sharpness setting of my TV. Sharpness is just there to artificially boost edge clarity with composite sources, anyway.

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    I can see the difference between the S-video composite. I'm actually in the process of finding S-video cables for my N64, SNES, Jaguar, Dreamcast, Saturn, and PlayStation 1. I still need to get component cables for my PlayStation 2 and X-Box.

    I'm trying to decide if $75 is worth it for a Genesis with S-video, stereo, and a region free switch.

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    I have official Sony PS2 component cables in their retail package that I would sell for $10 plus shipping if you, or anyone, is interested. I don't anticipate owning another PS2 in my lifetime.

    I can't seem to find a decent a/b s-video switch box. I can find plenty of s-video only switches, but none with s-video and audio. If I have to have a separate switch for video and audio, I may as well just physically swap cables every time.

    *edit* Actually, I managed to find one. http://studio1productions.com/switch-boxes.htm
    Last edited by Zing; 02-15-2012 at 03:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    I think it's overrated.
    In what context? Svideo is overrated in general, or in this specific case on the SNES?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zing View Post
    I have official Sony PS2 component cables in their retail package that I would sell for $10 plus shipping if you, or anyone, is interested. I don't anticipate owning another PS2 in my lifetime.

    I can't seem to find a decent a/b s-video switch box. I can find plenty of s-video only switches, but none with s-video and audio. If I have to have a separate switch for video and audio, I may as well just physically swap cables every time.

    *edit* Actually, I managed to find one. http://studio1productions.com/switch-boxes.htm
    This is what I've been using as a video switcher for my systems on composite. It does composite as well as S-video. I haven't tried out the S-video to see how well it works. I was going to pick up another one of these since I've had to double up my systems on the one I have.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pelican-Vide...item4600e5e38c

    As for those component cables, you have a PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polygon View Post
    This is what I've been using as a video switcher for my systems on composite. It does composite as well as S-video. I haven't tried out the S-video to see how well it works. I was going to pick up another one of these since I've had to double up my systems on the one I have.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pelican-Vide...item4600e5e38c
    I have a Hip Gear branded "System Selector" which looks remarkably similar only it has space for 5 inputs, composite & s-video. It's worked like a charm for years on an old Samsung CRT and, at least on the composite side, I've never noticed any negative effect on signal quality although, like Polygon, I haven't ran s-video through it. It was something like $10 from a local Blockbuster, found in one of those bins of random accessories.

    Here's the one: http://www.estarland.com/DefaultPage.product.30696.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    On my CRT sets S-Video makes a huge difference in colors and image clarity. On some sets with really advanced comb filters the difference between Composite and S-Video can be muted, but the actual image quality between the two is actually as big as Composite to Component or RGB. I actually consider S-Video equal to RGB, and Component equal to HDMI, so long as the resolutions are the same in the comparison.

    To the OP, for years I have preferred playing SNES over Composite rather than S-Video because of all of the low resolution aliasing that S-Video exposes. Now that I have an RGB to HDMI adapter for my Genesis and Master System though, I am starting to enjoy the higher quality colors and find myself more able to overlook aliasing and dithering that is exposed by the better quality video.

    Sticking strictly to native hardware support, I tend to prefer having the following cables for these systems:

    NES: Composite
    Master System: Composite/RGB
    Genesis-Sega CD-32X: Composite/RGB (32X has very good Composite)
    TG16/DUO: Composite (requires a mod for RGB, but DUO/R has great Composite
    SNES: Composite/S-Video
    3DO: S-Video
    Jaguar: S-Video
    Saturn: S-Video
    N64: S-Video
    PS1/PS2: Component
    Dreamcast: VGA to Component
    Xbox: Component
    Gamecube: Component
    etc.
    That's just a sampling of the best consoles have to offer. Wait until you see TG16/DUO in RGB. An amazing sight! From what I understand, it factually has superior image clarity than SNES and Genesis. Not a question of setup or opinion differences.
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