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Thread: Onboard Audio vs dedicated sound card

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    Default Onboard Audio vs dedicated sound card

    All right, so I've officially decided on the video cards I'm going to purchase here in a couple weeks. Now I have a dilemma I've since thought decided on, but am now coming back to.

    Basically here's the deal: Do I keep one of my three GTS 250s in for PhysX (GTX 550 Ti 2-way SLI + PhysX card), or take it out, and put in a dedicated sound card (GTX 550 Ti 2-way SLI + sound card)?

    Batman: Arkham City is really the only game I own at the moment that would need the dedicated PhysX card, as Arkham Asylum and Dark Void will likely be pushing 60 FPS with everything (PhysX included) set to max settings. Though I do plan on buying Metro 2033 (another PhysX game) eventually, and I would need the dedicated PhysX card just to try to stay above 40 FPS (if even that).

    Not too mention that taking out the graphics card (currently using 3-way SLI) would put less strain on my power supply (650w).
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    Onboard sound is always going to sub par. Just about any dedicated card is going to provide better sound quality. Whether or not you'll hear the difference is another thing. You can have the highest quality sound card but if you have crap speakers you'll never hear the difference.

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    Poly is spot on. I wouldn't waste money on a dedicated sound card unless you have the means to listen to it properly. I have a 5.1 Creative Labs sound system as well as the Razor gaming headset and its pretty awesome WITHOUT a dedicated sound card. Which is because I built this machine less than a year ago and haven't gotten around to buying one. If your a big PC gamer it can make a world of difference having a dedicated sound card...especially when playing games like Counter-Strike, or Call of Duty. I can hear the direction of opponents more clearly and the sound is extremely rich.

    If you don't game much on the PC or use it as like a dedicated dvd/bluray player then I don't think I'd spend the money as it generally doesn't effect music quality.
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    I do have a Logitech 5.1 sound system for my computer, and I'm planning on buying a headset here in a couple weeks as well. Also, I almost game exclusively on my PC now.
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    Having a dedicated sound card made a considerable difference back in the days of Windows XP, but these days I wouldn't bother unless your onboard audio is giving you some kind of issue, like noticeable interference or a really bad signal to noise ratio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kedawa View Post
    Having a dedicated sound card made a considerable difference back in the days of Windows XP, but these days I wouldn't bother unless your onboard audio is giving you some kind of issue, like noticeable interference or a really bad signal to noise ratio.

    Yeah. My pc board has a built in 7.1 surround with optical out. I've had it connected to the 5.1 in my livingroom and it sounds great.

    I'd stick with using the 3rd slot for a physx card. Your power supply isn't enough to handle 3 cards and even (2) GTX 550's is really pushing it. I have a GTS 250 in one of my PCs, and it requires a 475 Watt powersupply. My other PC has a 750 watt powersupply and (2) GTX 460s in sli; it really heats up when the cards start to push it.
    Last edited by Gamevet; 01-21-2012 at 02:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kedawa View Post
    Having a dedicated sound card made a considerable difference back in the days of Windows XP, but these days I wouldn't bother unless your onboard audio is giving you some kind of issue, like noticeable interference or a really bad signal to noise ratio.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    Yeah. My pc board has a built in 7.1 surround with optical out. I've had it connected to the 5.1 in my livingroom and it sounds great.

    I'd stick with using the 3rd slot for a physx card. Your power supply isn't enough to handle 3 cards and even (2) GTX 550's is really pushing it. I have a GTS 250 in one of my PCs, and it requires a 475 Watt powersupply. My other PC has a 750 watt powersupply and (2) GTX 460s in sli; it really heats up when the cards start to push it.
    I don't really agree with that kedawa, and that really doesn't count Gamevet. The again, I guess I should have elaborated on this in my first post. If you're going to use a digital output where the sound processing is being done by an external DAC then by all means, a there is no difference between an onboard sound card and a dedicated card. However, if you're using HDMI or digital coaxial then you're still subject to possible interference. If you're using TOSlink (AKA Fiber Optic) then interference is not an issue. The largest issue with onboard sound cards are shitty DACs (Digital to Analog Converters). The second is interference from other components on the system board. If you're using analog outputs and have some half decent speakers you're most certainly going to hear the difference between a decent dedicated card and ANY onboard card.

    If you really want to keep the Physx card and have better sound I would suggest an external sound device like the Extigy form Creative. However, a better option would be TOSlink to a good surround receiver with some good speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polygon View Post
    I don't really agree with that kedawa, and that really doesn't count Gamevet. The again, I guess I should have elaborated on this in my first post. If you're going to use a digital output where the sound processing is being done by an external DAC then by all means, a there is no difference between an onboard sound card and a dedicated card. However, if you're using HDMI or digital coaxial then you're still subject to possible interference. If you're using TOSlink (AKA Fiber Optic) then interference is not an issue. The largest issue with onboard sound cards are shitty DACs (Digital to Analog Converters). The second is interference from other components on the system board. If you're using analog outputs and have some half decent speakers you're most certainly going to hear the difference between a decent dedicated card and ANY onboard card.

    If you really want to keep the Physx card and have better sound I would suggest an external sound device like the Extigy form Creative. However, a better option would be TOSlink to a good surround receiver with some good speakers.
    Unless you're getting some uber powerful soundcard, it's not an issue on today's (decent) motherboards.

    My old LGA775 board has a Realtek ALC888S HD audio chipset that works very well, even with line out and it also supports S/SDIF. I don't run my sound through my video cards. I run it directly from the audio outputs of my PC board, even when I'm using 2.1 surround (line-out) on my desktop.

    http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/p...n=4&ProdID=141
    Last edited by Gamevet; 01-22-2012 at 09:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    Yeah. My pc board has a built in 7.1 surround with optical out. I've had it connected to the 5.1 in my livingroom and it sounds great.

    I'd stick with using the 3rd slot for a physx card. Your power supply isn't enough to handle 3 cards and even (2) GTX 550's is really pushing it. I have a GTS 250 in one of my PCs, and it requires a 475 Watt powersupply. My other PC has a 750 watt powersupply and (2) GTX 460s in sli; it really heats up when the cards start to push it.
    My current setup is a 650 watt power supply with three GTS 250s set in 3-way SLI mode. The 550 Tis have less power requirements than the GTS 250s (110 watts vs 150 watts).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    My old LGA775 board has a Realtek ALC888S HD audio codec chipset that works very well, even with line out and it also supports S/SDIF. I don't run my sound through my video cards. I run it directly from the audio outputs of my PC board, even when I'm using 2.1 surround (line-out) on my desktop.

    http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/p...n=4&ProdID=141
    That's mine as well. LGA 775 socket with the exact same Realtek chip.
    Last edited by Cloud121; 01-22-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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    Created a new post, when I meant to add to my above post.
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    Sound cards are a waste of money these days. Especially if you have a high-end motherboard. This has been the case for the last 6-8 years.

    Off all the people I know who actively build computers (professionally and personally) NONE use separate sound cards in their rigs (unless requested). I had the same questions as you a few years ago and it was unanimous. It's costs practically nothing for motherboard manufacturers to add high-end audio (5.1 or 7.1) to their boards. Thanks to competitive pressures, they all do it now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud121 View Post
    My current setup is a 650 watt power supply with three GTS 250s set in 3-way SLI mode. The 550 Tis have less power requirements than the GTS 250s (110 watts vs 150 watts).



    That's mine as well. LGA 775 socket with the exact same Realtek chip.
    Why not just get a GTX 560 Ti card? It blows the doors off of a 550 ti, overclocks very well and is only about $80 more. The price of (2) 550 Ti cards is going to be more than the single 560 Ti and the performance won't be that much better.
    http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html

    Are you running a QX9xxx processor? You're probably bottlenecking three GTS 250s if you're using a dual-core or low-end quad. I bottlenecked my (2) GTS 460s while running the Metro 2033 benchmark test; even with a Q9650 @ 3.3 Ghz. It's the first time I'd seen my videocards running at only 70%.
    Last edited by Gamevet; 01-22-2012 at 11:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heybtbm View Post
    Sound cards are a waste of money these days. Especially if you have a high-end motherboard. This has been the case for the last 6-8 years.
    I've seen motherboards that have such crappy audio it makes Windows act all wonky. And this was during the past eight years. The minute I could buy a separate sound card, I did so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    Are you running a QX9xxx processor? You're probably bottlenecking three GTS 250s if you're using a dual-core or low-end quad. I bottlenecked my (2) GTS 460s while running the Metro 2033 benchmark test; even with a Q9650 @ 3.3 Ghz. It's the first time I'd seen my videocards running at only 70%.
    I've got a Quad-core QX6700 Kentsfield chip at 2.66 GHz, overclocked at 3.2 GHz.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud121 View Post
    I've got a Quad-core QX6700 Kentsfield chip at 2.66 GHz, overclocked at 3.2 GHz.
    I'd go with the 560 Ti and use one of your 250's for Physx. You're really pushing that cpu, if you try to use two 550 Ti cards along with a GTS 250.

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    I've always wanted to know exactly how the CPU bottlenecking the GPU works? Based on some limited reading I've done, it bottlenecks when you're doing something that's more fitted for the CPU (playing at a lower resolution, turning graphical effects off, etc.), where the GPU isn't pushed that much, so the majority is dumped to the CPU.

    How would my CPU bottleneck dual 550 Tis, but not a single 560 Ti?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud121 View Post
    I've always wanted to know exactly how the CPU bottlenecking the GPU works? Based on some limited reading I've done, it bottlenecks when you're doing something that's more fitted for the CPU (playing at a lower resolution, turning graphical effects off, etc.), where the GPU isn't pushed that much, so the majority is dumped to the CPU.
    When a game is demanding a high amount of data calculations from your CPU and memory (exceeding what they can offer) to your videocards, the cards won't reach above 90% load. When I was running the Metro 2033 benchmark, I noticed that no matter what changes I made to AA and AF, the results stayed around 53 fps at 1920x1080. Disabling sli and using one card, netted results that were about 5-8 fps lower; my CPU couldn't meet the demands of those 2 cards in sli. I would keep task manager open, so I can see the load on all 4 cores of my CPU. The sli configuration was taxing my CPU at near 100%, while one card kept it around 70%. Looking at the stats in Afterburner showed that my cards were running at about 70% with sli and the single card configuration showed a load above 95%. Most of the time, the sli configuration perfomed very well, but in the case of Metro 2033, the demands for the CPU were too much.

    How would my CPU bottleneck dual 550 Tis, but not a single 560 Ti?
    You're asking the CPU to manage 2 cards vs 1. I've read reviews comparing my two GTX 460's in sli vs a single GTX 480. The 460 usually won, but games that put a demand on the CPU didn't do as well as the single card solution. Also, your current setup might not bottleneck with (3) GTS 250's, since they have GDDR3 memory (512 MB?), but you're talking about (2) videocards with 1 Gig of GDDR5.

    You will see simular results on this review for the 550 Ti in sli.

    http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/..._card_review/6

    For Metro 2033, the SLI configuration with two MSI N550GTX-Ti Cyclone II video cards turned out to be the slowest option. It was the only one that was not playable with 4X MSAA selected. We had to either turn the AA setting down to "AAA" (Analytic Anti-Aliasing) or select the "High" graphics option to make the game playable at 1920x1200. We chose to select AAA, because it had a less significant impact on the game's appearance. The NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570, the AMD Radeon HD 6950, and the MSI N560GTX-Ti Hawk all allowed us to choose 4X MSAA over AAA, which was more effective at reducing jagged edges.

    With 4X MSAA selected on the MSI N550GTX-Ti Cyclone II SLI setup at 1920x1200, the raw framerate in this game was as good as it was using the MSI N560GTX-Ti Hawk, but the gameplay was totally unacceptable. The input lag was huge, which made aiming at the enemies exceedingly difficult. There was also a jittery quality to the gameplay, which was uncomfortable to look at for most of the test procedure.
    The 550 Ti seems like a really good option vs. the 560 Ti, but you also have to take into consideration that those two cards will consume more power, create more heat and sometimes not run as smooth as a single card solution. Also, the price of two GTX 550 Ti cards, isn't better than that of a single GTX 560 Ti. Two GTX 550 Ti cards with full load will require 515 watts vs. 465 for a single GTX 560 Ti. I don't think you can add your GTS 250 into that setup.

    http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/..._card_review/9
    Last edited by Gamevet; 01-23-2012 at 12:08 AM.

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    Hm... Well how about a GTX 560 Ti 448? It's essentially a slightly crippled GTX 570. 448 core vs 480, and I believe it has just slightly less raster units than the 570. Otherwise, exact same card. Even the power consumption is the same.

    Okay, looking at the bottom link you gave me, it says that a GTX 570 is about 475 watts at full load. Hm... Would it be safe to keep one of my GTS 250s in there for PhysX? I could possibly get 60+ FPS in Arkham City everything set to max.
    Last edited by Cloud121; 01-23-2012 at 02:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud121 View Post
    Hm... Well how about a GTX 560 Ti 448? It's essentially a slightly crippled GTX 570. 448 core vs 480, and I believe it has just slightly less raster units than the 570. Otherwise, exact same card. Even the power consumption is the same.
    You could get a GTX 570 for pretty much the same price. I saw the 448 core GTX 560 Ti at Fry's; They wanted $319 for the card. You could pick up the Galaxy version of the GTX 570 for $300.

    Edit: The price went down on the 448 core. PNY has a GTX 570 for a little over $300.

    http://www.frys.com/product/6916217?...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

    http://www.frys.com/product/6486272?...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

    Okay, looking at the bottom link you gave me, it says that a GTX 570 is about 475 watts at full load. Hm... Would it be safe to keep one of my GTS 250s in there for PhysX? I could possibly get 60+ FPS in Arkham City everything set to max.
    No, you won't be able to run your GTS 250. You also have to factor in your 130 Watt CPU (under full load), system fans and HDDs. I'm amazed you could even run three GTS 250s with that power supply.
    Last edited by Gamevet; 01-23-2012 at 06:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamevet View Post
    Unless you're getting some uber powerful soundcard, it's not an issue on today's (decent) motherboards.

    My old LGA775 board has a Realtek ALC888S HD audio chipset that works very well, even with line out and it also supports S/SDIF. I don't run my sound through my video cards. I run it directly from the audio outputs of my PC board, even when I'm using 2.1 surround (line-out) on my desktop.

    http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/p...n=4&ProdID=141
    Quote Originally Posted by heybtbm View Post
    Sound cards are a waste of money these days. Especially if you have a high-end motherboard. This has been the case for the last 6-8 years.

    Off all the people I know who actively build computers (professionally and personally) NONE use separate sound cards in their rigs (unless requested). I had the same questions as you a few years ago and it was unanimous. It's costs practically nothing for motherboard manufacturers to add high-end audio (5.1 or 7.1) to their boards. Thanks to competitive pressures, they all do it now.
    Once again I have to disagree.

    For starters, sounds cards are not powerful. They actually don't put out much wattage as the signal is going to be amplified by the speakers of a separate amplifier. Second, power output and sound quality aren't mutual. In fact I would say they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I for one build computer professionally. I don't build customer systems with dedicated sound cards unless requested either. Doing it otherwise wouldn't make sense. You would increase the cost of the computer for something the customer isn't going to even notice because they're probably hooking up to a pair of $10 speakers anyhow. I also build all of my own computers. I listen to a lot of music on my main system, and thus it has pretty nice speakers and good dedicated sound card. My main system has a high end board with onboard sound. And with my headphones and my Klipsch speakers I can hear the interference and it just plain sounds like crap. Switch over to my $30 Creative 2.1 system and you can't hear the difference. They don't put high end sound cards on boards for the same reason we don't install dedicated sound cards in customer builds. It adds to the cost and the majority of people won't hear the difference.

    I use my systems to demonstrate to customers. One of them was impressed with how good my speakers on my main system sounded. Without telling me he went out and bought the same speakers. Later he gave me a call thinking there was something wrong. He got the same speakers but it sounded like crap. I ordered him a dedicated card and put it in. After that it sounded great. As I said, you will never hear the difference on crappy speakers. Put on some good headphones or speakers and you will hear the difference.

    My suggestion still stands that you should TOSlink to an external amp, either a surround sound reciever or maybe a T-amp to some good monitors. That way you can keep your Physx card and still have good sound quality.

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