Onboard Audio vs dedicated sound card

[Cloud121]

I'm going to post my entire system specs just to try to make this easier to figure out:

XFX Core Edition 650w PSU
XFX nForce 780i Motherboard
Intel QX6700 Kentsfield 2.66GHz (OCed at 3.2 GHz)
nVidia GTS 250 (x3) in three-way SLI
8 GB Kingston HyperX T1 DDR2 RAM 800 Mhz (OCed at 1066 Mhz)
Onboard Audio (RealTek ALC88S Chip)
Western Digital Velociraptor 160 GB HDD (Master)
Western Digital Gaviar Green 2TB HDD (Slave)
LG IDE DVD-RW drive
Logitech Z506 5.1 Speaker System


This is the reason why I'm confused on the power supply thing. Going by nVidia's page, and Hardware Compare, the GTS 250 is 150 watts at idle. So with htree of them, wouldn't it theoretically be 450 watts at idle? The GTX 570 is 220 at idle. Throw in one of the GTS 250s for a PhysX card, it would be 370 at idle. That still less power consumption than my three 250s put together at idle. So even under full load, shouldn't it draw less power than my current setup?

The GTX 560 448 is 210 watts idle, according to Hardware Compare. Just in case that 10 watts really makes a difference. GTX 560 448 vs GTX 570.

I'm going to assume this has a lot to do with the fact the 570 would need two power adapters plugged in, whereas the 250 only requires one?

Actually, now that I think about it some more, I suppose I could just go a single GTX 570/560 Ti 448, and just overclock it. That would help make up for the difference in the lack of a PhysX card.

[Gamevet]

It's not the idle power you have to worry about, it's when the system is under a heavy load.

Just the other day I was running furmark on my PC. The UPS I have it plugged into provides 700 watts of power, but when my 750 Watt PC powersupply was pulling more power than the UPS was rated for, it started going into alarm. I had to shut down Furmark before the UPS gave out.


I have a very simular board to yours. I have the XFX 750i extreme edition motherboard. It only has (2) PCI-E X16 2.0 slots thought.


You can calculate your system power using this site. http://www.thermaltake.outervision.com/Power

With (1) GTX 560 ti and your GTS 250, the site shows the system power draw at 565 Watts. With the 570, the number jumps up to 628 Watts, using a 90% load. I just used it for my setup, and with (2) GTX 460s and my slight over-clock, the system would require 600 watts. My 750 Watt power supply isn't what I'd though it was and from what I've read on the internet, this unit needs to be replaced soon since it starts to show problems once is passes 650 Watts.


Here are a few shots of my PC and the results for your system with a GTX 570.

[Gamevet]

Once again I have to disagree.

For starters, sounds cards are not powerful. They actually don't put out much wattage as the signal is going to be amplified by the speakers of a separate amplifier. Second, power output and sound quality aren't mutual. In fact I would say they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I for one build computer professionally. I don't build customer systems with dedicated sound cards unless requested either. Doing it otherwise wouldn't make sense. You would increase the cost of the computer for something the customer isn't going to even notice because they're probably hooking up to a pair of $10 speakers anyhow. I also build all of my own computers. I listen to a lot of music on my main system, and thus it has pretty nice speakers and good dedicated sound card. My main system has a high end board with onboard sound. And with my headphones and my Klipsch speakers I can hear the interference and it just plain sounds like crap. Switch over to my $30 Creative 2.1 system and you can't hear the difference. They don't put high end sound cards on boards for the same reason we don't install dedicated sound cards in customer builds. It adds to the cost and the majority of people won't hear the difference.

I use my systems to demonstrate to customers. One of them was impressed with how good my speakers on my main system sounded. Without telling me he went out and bought the same speakers. Later he gave me a call thinking there was something wrong. He got the same speakers but it sounded like crap. I ordered him a dedicated card and put it in. After that it sounded great. As I said, you will never hear the difference on crappy speakers. Put on some good headphones or speakers and you will hear the difference.

My suggestion still stands that you should TOSlink to an external amp, either a surround sound reciever or maybe a T-amp to some good monitors. That way you can keep your Physx card and still have good sound quality.

I don't use cheap speakers with my setups. Even when my PCs are connected at my desktop, I'm using a ($240 in 1993) RCA all-in-one stereo (2.1 surround) that has a built-in sub and Dolby NR. I decided to do a little test this evening, using a Sony headset (compared very well with my brother's studio headset he used in sound production) a CD played directly from the stereo and then from my 2009 HP media center PC. I paused the music, cranked up the volume and listened for any hiss or hum sounds; It was clean of any system interference. The music quality was about the same, be it from the PC CD player, the RCA stereo (when RCA used to be good) or a Pansonic MP3/CD player. The high range was crisp, the mid-range was clear and the bass wasn't distorted.

I ask you this. Do you think the soundchips in the Xbox 360 and PS3 are garbage?

I believe it's pretty telling, when MaximumPC lists the best of the best, and they don't even bother to mention sound cards.

http://www.maximumpc.com/best-of-the-best

And their media PC uses onboard sound as well.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fea...pc_living_room

[Polygon]

I don't use cheap speakers with my setups. Even when my PCs are connected at my desktop, I'm using a ($240 in 1993) RCA all-in-one stereo (2.1 surround) that has a built-in sub and Dolby NR. I decided to do a little test this evening, using a Sony headset (compared very well with my brother's studio headset he used in sound production) a CD played directly from the stereo and then from my 2009 HP media center PC. I paused the music, cranked up the volume and listened for any hiss or hum sounds; It was clean of any system interference. The music quality was about the same, be it from the PC CD player, the RCA stereo (when RCA used to be good) or a Pansonic MP3/CD player. The high range was crisp, the mid-range was clear and the bass wasn't distorted.

I ask you this. Do you think the soundchips in the Xbox 360 and PS3 are garbage?

I believe it's pretty telling, when MaximumPC lists the best of the best, and they don't even bother to mention sound cards.

http://www.maximumpc.com/best-of-the-best

And their media PC uses onboard sound as well.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fea...pc_living_room

1. You're using an all in one system and you're going to try and tell me that you don't use cheap speakers? I can guarantee you that you have cheap speakers and you will never hear the interference or hiss. Also, RCA hasn't been good for 40 years. And back in 1993, $230 was cheap. Just remember that a CD player was about $800. A good receiver cost about $400-$500. And you can add another $400 and up for speakers. And this was for good quality consumer end components, not even audiophile components. I hate to tell you, but you have the definition of cheap. Your speakers are most likely made out of straight paper, have poor signal to noise ratio, frequency response, and it doesn't end there. Your "sub" isn't really a sub. It's a full range speaker. I'll bet that the speaker cabinets are made out of plastic or particle board, not solid wood. Beyond the speakers, the amplifier driving them isn't a great amplifier either. Sony, also has never been known for great speakers or head phones. You think that the highs are crisp, the mids are clear. But ignorance is truly bliss. If you think that an RCA all in one system from 1993 is decent then you don't know quality.

2. Now, as for the X-Box/PS3 comment, that depends. If you're using stereo via the composite, yes. If you're using optical or HDMI then the X-Box or the PS3 aren't doing the processing. The receiver you're connecting them to is. Therefor the onboard sound has nothing to do with the sound quality.

3. Maximum PC is not any sort of authority on sound quality. And just because they don't list a sound card on that little list is not indicative of anything.

4. How many times do I have to say this? Sure, their media PC has onboard sound. My media PC has onboard sound. But, like them I'm sending the audio to the receiver via the HDMI on the video card. The onboard isn't used, just like in the case of the X-Box/PS3. The audio is processed by the receiver.

I suggest you go hang out on the Head-Fi or Audioholics forums and find out what quality is and learn more on this subject.

[Gamevet]

1. You're using an all in one system and you're going to try and tell me that you don't use cheap speakers? I can guarantee you that you have cheap speakers and you will never hear the interference or hiss. Also, RCA hasn't been good for 40 years. And back in 1993, $230 was cheap. Just remember that a CD player was about $800. A good receiver cost about $400-$500. And you can add another $400 and up for speakers. And this was for good quality consumer end components, not even audiophile components. I hate to tell you, but you have the definition of cheap. Your speakers are most likely made out of straight paper, have poor signal to noise ratio, frequency response, and it doesn't end there. Your "sub" isn't really a sub. It's a full range speaker. I'll bet that the speaker cabinets are made out of plastic or particle board, not solid wood. Beyond the speakers, the amplifier driving them isn't a great amplifier either. Sony, also has never been known for great speakers or head phones. You think that the highs are crisp, the mids are clear. But ignorance is truly bliss. If you think that an RCA all in one system from 1993 is decent then you don't know quality.

That's my desktop. It's still better than a crappy Logitec 2.1 surround speaker system, and yes I have that setup (X-230) connected to my 32" CRT that I use for console gaming. The speakers on that RCA system are injection-molded polypropylene and yes, the sub is inside of the box; I've seen it when I opened up the case to repair the CD drive. You obviously didn't bother to look at the attached picture, because what you have described was nothing like that. And yes, I have heard poor quality analog sound, when I had a crappy 2002 HP computer connected to it.

In my livingroom, I have over $1,000 in speakers, that I paid for in the 90's. My center channel has JBL 2600 bookshelf speakers, my front channel has Technics (Pioneer) SB-CR77 speakers with a 12" subs and my rear channel has (cheap quality if you ask me) Advent Prodigy Towers. Yes, I have hooked up my gaming PC (not the crappy HP) via the fiber to my reciever in the livingroom and I hear every step behind, to the left and in front of me. Does that mean I would need an unnecessary sound card to improve my sound?

2. Now, as for the X-Box/PS3 comment, that depends. If you're using stereo via the composite, yes. If you're using optical or HDMI then the X-Box or the PS3 aren't doing the processing. The receiver you're connecting them to is. Therefor the onboard sound has nothing to do with the sound quality.

Exactly! And if you're going to build a gaming PC, don't you think your audio equipment should be up to par as well?

3. Maximum PC is not any sort of authority on sound quality. And just because they don't list a sound card on that little list is not indicative of anything.

I doubt your expertise on PC building is greater than that of a professional magazine staff that has access to the greatest hardware available.

Yeah, analog hookups aren't that great, but if it sounds clean, why would you add a sound card for slightly better analog sound?

4. How many times do I have to say this? Sure, their media PC has onboard sound. My media PC has onboard sound. But, like them I'm sending the audio to the receiver via the HDMI on the video card. The onboard isn't used, just like in the case of the X-Box/PS3. The audio is processed by the receiver.



I suggest you go hang out on the Head-Fi or Audioholics forums and find out what quality is and learn more on this subject.

Yeah, but you're saying you won't hear those sounds using cheap speakers. So, why would he need to use the additional uDAC, when his current setup really isn't going to expose those flaws?

*Edit* While loading Crysis Warhead on my gaming PC, I did hear a faint noise caused by the DVD drive, coming through my speakers. The sound did stop after about 3 seconds, but it was very faint. I had the volume turned up pretty high though.

[Cloud121]

So I decided to go the single card route, and bought a GTX 570 Superclocked. I want to say the most powerful card I can get without buying a new power supply?

[Gamevet]

Nice!
Did you check out that system power calculator I posted on the other page? You might be able to use that GTS 250, as long as you HDDs are SATA.

[Cloud121]

Yeah I did, and it looks feasible, but I don't want to risk frying my tower just for the sake of a few extra frames per second in Arkham City. Both of my HDDs are SATA though (I just realized I forgot to post that little bit in my specs above).

Appreciate all the help. I'm super pumped to get my super clocked card! (Okay, that was REALLY lame.... ).

Also, since this supports 3-way SLI, I plan on getting two more of these in the future when I get a better motherboard/processor. What would you recommend for power supply? 1000w? Or would I need to go so far as a 1200w?

[Gamevet]

Yeah I did, and it looks feasible, but I don't want to risk frying my tower just for the sake of a few extra frames per second in Arkham City. Both of my HDDs are SATA though (I just realized I forgot to post that little bit in my specs above).

Appreciate all the help. I'm super pumped to get my super clocked card! (Okay, that was REALLY lame.... ).

How's it going with the new video card? Did it exceed your expectations?

Also, since this supports 3-way SLI, I plan on getting two more of these in the future when I get a better motherboard/processor. What would you recommend for power supply? 1000w? Or would I need to go so far as a 1200w?

1200 watts is over-kill, especially with 3 way sli using the 570. I'd recommend 850 / 1000 Watt 80 + Bronze certified. Corsair seems to be highly praised for their power supplies.

http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Enthus...ies/B004MYFODS

[BetaWolf47]

Sound cards are a waste of money these days. Especially if you have a high-end motherboard. This has been the case for the last 6-8 years.

Off all the people I know who actively build computers (professionally and personally) NONE use separate sound cards in their rigs (unless requested). I had the same questions as you a few years ago and it was unanimous. It's costs practically nothing for motherboard manufacturers to add high-end audio (5.1 or 7.1) to their boards. Thanks to competitive pressures, they all do it now.

Umm, that makes no sense. If none of the people you know who build PC's have used dedicated sound cards, how do you know that onboard sound is actually as good? I mean, there's so much more to sound processing than the number of channels that are supported. I've seen some of my online friends get budget sound cards (Asus Xonar DG, which costs about $30 USD) and then tell me that it makes a world of difference over their onboard sound. It's the same as that person who refuses to build a computer and tells everyone that the $800 HP with a low-end GPU is "good enough" for them.

The problem with dedicated audio isn't that some don't support 5.1 or 7.1. It's crosstalk, and lack of other features. I'd never own a gaming PC without a dedicated sound card.

[Cloud121]

How's it going with the new video card? Did it exceed your expectations?

Have not received it yet. I should be getting it on Friday. Now, I want to say that the power connectors are the same as my GTS 250s, only it requires two of them?

[Gamevet]

Umm, that makes no sense. If none of the people you know who build PC's have used dedicated sound cards, how do you know that onboard sound is actually as good? I mean, there's so much more to sound processing than the number of channels that are supported. I've seen some of my online friends get budget sound cards (Asus Xonar DG, which costs about $30 USD) and then tell me that it makes a world of difference over their onboard sound. It's the same as that person who refuses to build a computer and tells everyone that the $800 HP with a low-end GPU is "good enough" for them.

The problem with dedicated audio isn't that some don't support 5.1 or 7.1. It's crosstalk, and lack of other features. I'd never own a gaming PC without a dedicated sound card.

Don't you think it's kind of odd that a publication like Maximum PC builds all kinds of gaming rigs, yet they don't bother with sound cards?

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fea...d_best_pc_ever

[Kitsune Sniper]

That could be because many of the newer video cards already -have- audio output built in.

The card that just died on me had it, and it disabled my normal sound card. I had to manually turn that off since I don't use HDMI.

[Zing]

I always used a dedicated sound card due to the CPU overhead of the on-board audio. I used software specifically intended to test and benchmark sound cards and their drivers, and the on-board audio was pushing 9% CPU usage with "hardware" streams. The dedicated card only used 4% and had more features.

[Gamevet]

9% seems awful high. What CPU were you using?

I know when I was checking out the option, because of the idea that onboard audio was taking up CPU resources. After checking out many websites, most agreed that it was no longer an issue.

[Zing]

Intel P4 3.4Ghz…

[heybtbm]

Umm, that makes no sense. If none of the people you know who build PC's have used dedicated sound cards, how do you know that onboard sound is actually as good?

Is this a serious question?

These aren't high school kids building their first rig, I'm talking about people who do this professionally. Sure, they'll stick in a sound card if you tell them you want one (more money for them)...but when you seek their knowledge and expertise, they all say the same thing. High-end motherboards have high-end sound built in. It costs motherboard manufacturers practically nothing to add these features. A stand-alone sound card is redundant in these setups.

Does this mean sound cards are always equal (or inferior) to on-board sound? Of course not. I'm sure there are plenty of kick-ass sound cards out there. Nice motherboards just have them now too.

[Gamevet]

Intel P4 3.4Ghz…

I guessing that was the reason why the numbers were so high.

Most decent motherboards in the past 7 or 8 years have onboard soundchips that take the load off of the CPU.

[kedawa]

Soundcards used to be way better for people who wanted to drive their speakers directly from the PC, without any sort of external amp.
I have no idea if that's still the case.

[Gamevet]

Soundcards used to be way better for people who wanted to drive their speakers directly from the PC, without any sort of external amp.
I have no idea if that's still the case.

That makes sense, since a lot of people used cheap line-out speakers back in the day. Companies like Logitech have been selling inexpensive 2.1 surround-sound setups, that have their own power for a good while now. Why buy a $50 soundcard, when you could get a decent (power driven) speaker setup for a few dollars more?