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Thread: Volition's Jameson Durall says banning pre-owned games is "fantastic" [Escapist]

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    Yes, what a wonderful idea, let's mass produce a product that becomes completely worthless, unusable trash once the original purchaser is tired of it. Let's just fill up our landfills even more and make our society even more wasteful. That's really the path to the future. Thrift stores are just evil, what with how they encourage people to reuse and recycle and save money too.

    These developers need to grow the balls to admit the real problem here. It's not "used game sales"; it's GameStop. GameStop has a monopoly, and they have the developers bending over getting reamed. They've completely manipulated the system to make greater profits on used sales than new, which is hurting the developers and consumers alike. If they focused on selling new games as they should, game developers wouldn't care about the used sales at independent stores, thrifts, pawns, between friends, etc. I hate to turn this into another anti-GameStop discussion, but they're seriously at the root of this.

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    I'm all for attacking GameStop, but I don't see the point when they've done nothing wrong to warrant the attack. GameStop isn't the problem here. It's the publishers and developers.

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    I already explained how they ARE the problem here. They make more money off of used sales than sales of new games, which is NOT how it should be, and because of that, they put more effort into moving used goods, even if a game launched just a few days prior. This takes a huge chunk out of the sales of new copies that should be taking place. This is why developers are complaining. They're not losing money because a Goodwill is selling a copy of their game months or years later. It's all because of GameStop. If they made more money selling new games or if they had some kind of restrictions on how/when they could sell used copies (at the very least, not trying to convince customers to go with a used copy over a new one three days after launch just to save 5 bucks), we wouldn't see developers/publishers so concerned about used games.

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    If gamers would just sell their games privately instead of trading them for peanuts at Gamestop, that wouldn't even be an issue.

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    at the very least, not trying to convince customers to go with a used copy over a new one three days after launch just to save 5 bucks
    Any how many games are being traded in within days of release? The biggest sales period are the first two weeks, maybe three. If there are so many used copies coming in and going out, that's not GameStop's fault. There doesn't need to be a restriction. For $5, I'd be more willing to splurge on a new copy anyway. I'm sure many do too.

    And even if they're buying used, there are other avenues of revenue now (DLC, download spin-offs, gamerpics) so the point it moot. If used games are such a concern, then smaller companies would be fighting them too, but they're not.

    GameStop hasn't changed anything. Gamestop has grown alongside the industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyrdsalesman View Post
    Microsoft would be digging their own grave if they did this. It would show that they have lost almost all their concern for their customers in exchange for profit. Not only that but it would give competitors an extreme advantage when it comes to marketing their next gen consoles. 'Hey kids! Would you rather buy all your games new for one time use with online verification or do you just want a disc with the data that you can share freely?' I think they are too smart to try something like this
    Meh.

    All it woulds take would be a few good games released and people will forget about their boycott. It happens all the time. How many times have we heard people say that they'd never purchase another product from Microsoft, Sony, Gamestop, Best Buy, Walmart, Apple, HP, etc... yet they're all as big as ever. I know that this will upset some people but the fact is that people are weak and will break easily. When it comes to choosing between their personal standards and a hot new game or a flashy new cell phone or some other device, history has shown that standards go out the window.

    Edit: Not to mention that as soon as one console developer goes direct download only the others will soon follow. I have a feeling that both Microsoft and Sony are just kind of waiting and hoping that the other will do it first. They both want it but neither wants to be the initial bad guy
    Last edited by Griking; 02-21-2012 at 09:43 AM.

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    This is driven by sheer fucking greed. The developers see that Gamestop is making $55 selling a game used a few days after launch and I'm sure they get a few buyers (not me). The developers don't like the fact that they got the first $60 but not that second $55.

    Blaming Gamestop is like blaming a used car dealership. People trade something in and they resell it again and make a nice profit. But you don't see the auto industry up in arms.

    Game developers are just FUCKING GREEDY PIECES OF SHIT!

    While I do zero piracy of anything, I understand why people do it. It's just a nice "Fuck You!!" to the greed of the industry and in all honesty, I think piracy is a small percentage of their actual problem. The anti-consumer attitude and ideas such as this merely add fuel to the rebellion and should be a bigger concern to developers. Just let them keep biting the hand that feeds them and eventually consumers will have had enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griking View Post
    Edit: Not to mention that as soon as one console developer goes direct download only the others will soon follow.
    Like the way Nintendo and SONY did after the PSPGo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    I already explained how they ARE the problem here. They make more money off of used sales than sales of new games, which is NOT how it should be, and because of that, they put more effort into moving used goods, even if a game launched just a few days prior. This takes a huge chunk out of the sales of new copies that should be taking place. This is why developers are complaining. They're not losing money because a Goodwill is selling a copy of their game months or years later. It's all because of GameStop. If they made more money selling new games or if they had some kind of restrictions on how/when they could sell used copies (at the very least, not trying to convince customers to go with a used copy over a new one three days after launch just to save 5 bucks), we wouldn't see developers/publishers so concerned about used games.
    Why is that not how it should be? Many many things are far more profitable used for the second had seller than a new one. The margins on new product is usually significantly smaller than used, at least as far as the retailer is concerned. Any company is in business to make money in the most efficient, profitable manner which in this case, is used games at least for GS and the like (There is more than one major retailer out there that deals in used games yes?). Yes they pay peanuts to the consumer but that' s the consumer's fault for taking them up on that. GameStop hasn't manipulated the system. If anything the companies should be glad they exist to take in used games as trade and offer additional bonus credit for new pre-orders sometimes. I would wager that helps more than it hurts publishers.


    The real problem is not the seller, its the product. Used games have become a scapegoat for the huge losses that companies suffer and I think an all to convenient one. They have to sell them for a certain price to recoup their expenses but if the consumre is not willing to pay that amount then perhaps a different business model is needed. Perhaps GS could extend an olive branch and offer to put a hold on selling pre-owned copies of a newish release for x days but they shouldn't be forced to do that. And even if they did, I expect that used games would still be the evil cause of new game problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griking View Post
    Edit: Not to mention that as soon as one console developer goes direct download only the others will soon follow. I have a feeling that both Microsoft and Sony are just kind of waiting and hoping that the other will do it first. They both want it but neither wants to be the initial bad guy
    It's more than that. ISPs will have them by the balls if they go that route. We've already seen some enforcing data limits on their customers. Now imagine something as prolific as mainstream game consoles essentially demanding tens of gigs worth of transfers per customer per month. What's Comcast going to think about that? And since people can't freely choose an ISP like any other product due to the way the infrastructure works you have a perfect storm for a crippling blow. It's not like the free market where some other ISP can swoop in and undercut the competition. We're pretty much locked down to the few ISPs that control the region in which we live. I doubt either MS or Sony wants to wake the dragon and suffer the consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Thrift stores are just evil, what with how they encourage people to reuse and recycle and save money too.
    You forgot helping charities, that's apparently another evil that needs to be stopped.

    Quote Originally Posted by AceAerosmith View Post
    Blaming Gamestop is like blaming a used car dealership. People trade something in and they resell it again and make a nice profit. But you don't see the auto industry up in arms.
    I never really got this analogy, car manufacturers still get money as they sell replacement parts for those older cars. And it's not like that 3 year old car you're trading in is still being sold new. It's like complaining that someone is trading in a copy of Halo 1 to buy a copy of Halo 3, but they're actually complaining about people selling or trading in Halo 3 when Halo 3 is still a new release. I don't think developers deserve a cut on used games but this example just doesn't work as a comparison. Used books are a better example, but I don't hear many people complaining about used book stores or libraries either.


    I read through the original blog post, I found it funny that he claimed to always buy new games off Amazon so he doesn't have to pay tax on them. Is paying developers somehow better than paying taxes? I thought taxes helped pay for infrastructure and public services, it seems like it would be better to buy a used copy locally and pay taxes than buy a new copy online without paying taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    These developers need to grow the balls to admit the real problem here. It's not "used game sales"; it's GameStop. GameStop has a monopoly, and they have the developers bending over getting reamed. They've completely manipulated the system to make greater profits on used sales than new, which is hurting the developers and consumers alike. If they focused on selling new games as they should, game developers wouldn't care about the used sales at independent stores, thrifts, pawns, between friends, etc. I hate to turn this into another anti-GameStop discussion, but they're seriously at the root of this.
    If GameStop's practices are actually a problem (which still hasn't really been established) then that's merely a symptom of the greater cause. GameStop is playing the game by the rules that were set and it just so happens that the most effective way to play the game involves stepping on the toes of publishers. Fact is, new games don't offer a substantial cut for the retailer. Notice how games work differently than DVDs. You never really hear this about movies. Disney isn't going around complaining about used Blu-ray sales.

    I'm not exactly saying that the game market should be a 1:1 match of the DVD market in terms of how pricing works. But if GameStop is so ungodly awful then why aren't more people looking at the things that allow GameStop to work that way rather than just pointing the finger at the company itself?

    For a gaming analogy, it's like how if somepony is playing a fighting game and his opponent busts out a game breaking infinite combo and instead of either moving to a better game that doesn't have that kind of bullshit or demanding better from the developers he instead complains that his opponent is being "cheap" when all he's doing is playing the game in the best way it allows. He's playing to win, which is the whole point of a fighting game. It's why banning is so frowned upon in the competitive community and only done in the most isolated cases.

    Don't hate the player, hate the game. If there happens to be some fatal flaw in the system that allows GameStop to exploit a loophole then fix the goddamn loophole, whatever it is. And if everypony is content with how the system works (pricing, distribution, etc.) then they shouldn't complain when people, or entities in this case, play the game in the most efficient way possible. You know, playing to win. GameStop is the guy dominating the Street Fighter machine while publishers are the scrubs yelling how throws are cheap and how he blocks too much. Either learn to play the game, move to a different game, or keep losing. Another option, provided you're in the position to do so, is to fix the exploit if there is one or to demand it from whoever is in such a position.
    Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 02-21-2012 at 01:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calthaer View Post
    I don't care why he's making the comments, I'm a consumer - not an employee. I care about what might happen if his comments succeed in producing a marketplace like the one he describes, and what it will do to me / us. I don't want to see his business model succeed, nor do I wish to see it advocated, and I'm voting with my dollars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameguy View Post
    I never really got this analogy, car manufacturers still get money as they sell replacement parts for those older cars. And it's not like that 3 year old car you're trading in is still being sold new. It's like complaining that someone is trading in a copy of Halo 1 to buy a copy of Halo 3, but they're actually complaining about people selling or trading in Halo 3 when Halo 3 is still a new release. I don't think developers deserve a cut on used games but this example just doesn't work as a comparison. Used books are a better example, but I don't hear many people complaining about used book stores or libraries either.s.
    But the publisher sells parts for that used game. It's called DLC and online pass.

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    So Microsoft implements this, and then all of a sudden your console gets a red ring, and you're out of luck?

    So, when Microsoft stops making the console and yours dies, all of your purchased console just becomes worthless?

    If *any* company *ever* does this, I won't buy that console. Sorry. Stuff like Steam and the App store, at least there is some sort of guarantee that those games will transfer in the future.

    Yeah, THQ has been hurting. But, eliminate used titles, and you aren't going to magically fix the company. I can buy a used car, why didn't the government outlaw used car sales when Detroit was going bankrupt? Wouldn't that have solved the issue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by goatdan View Post
    So Microsoft implements this, and then all of a sudden your console gets a red ring, and you're out of luck?

    So, when Microsoft stops making the console and yours dies, all of your purchased console just becomes worthless?

    If *any* company *ever* does this, I won't buy that console. Sorry. Stuff like Steam and the App store, at least there is some sort of guarantee that those games will transfer in the future.

    Yeah, THQ has been hurting. But, eliminate used titles, and you aren't going to magically fix the company. I can buy a used car, why didn't the government outlaw used car sales when Detroit was going bankrupt? Wouldn't that have solved the issue?
    I don't think there's much danger of that happening. MS already has a system in place to migrate digital content from one console to another. Locked physical media should be no different. You just have the option of getting the data from a disc instead of the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kedawa View Post
    I don't think there's much danger of that happening. MS already has a system in place to migrate digital content from one console to another. Locked physical media should be no different. You just have the option of getting the data from a disc instead of the internet.
    So you really think that the next Xbox will be 100% backwards compatible?

    We all know how well that worked with the 360's backward compatibility. I don't think it's a priority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    I already explained how they ARE the problem here. They make more money off of used sales than sales of new games, which is NOT how it should be...
    You didn't explain anything about why they're the problem. So they make more money off used games than new and concentrate on it and have grown their business? The last I knew, that was free enterprise at work and there was nothing wrong with it.

    All that your explanation provided is a possible partial explanation of why the industry is now paying more attention to used game sales as GameStop's business has grown and they've seen the money they're raking in (And incorrectly assume that every dollar spent on a used game is a dollar they're owed and didn't get). But you've failed to explain why their focus on used games is inherently wrong and why they're to be blamed for the situation.

    Saying it should be a specific way doesn't make it so. That's not an explanation in the slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameguy View Post

    I never really got this analogy, car manufacturers still get money as they sell replacement parts for those older cars. And it's not like that 3 year old car you're trading in is still being sold new. It's like complaining that someone is trading in a copy of Halo 1 to buy a copy of Halo 3, but they're actually complaining about people selling or trading in Halo 3 when Halo 3 is still a new release. I don't think developers deserve a cut on used games but this example just doesn't work as a comparison. Used books are a better example, but I don't hear many people complaining about used book stores or libraries either.
    The situation isn't any different in the world of videogames. Microtransactions, single use unlock codes such as online passes, subscription fees, ingame advertising revenue, and I'm sure other ways have made it increasingly possible for console manufacturers, developers, and publishers to make money after the initial sale of a game. That applies to original buyers and those that bought the game second hand, just like the parts replacement business for automobile manufacturers.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 02-21-2012 at 09:24 PM.

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    I think publishers need to start trying different pricing models. They have dlc for multiplayer maps and single player add on missions but now they need to experiment more with retail prices. Once they come down from that $60 price tag I think theres a chance they can attract more early adopters.
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    There's nothing wrong with free enterprise until a company becomes a monopoly, and GameStop is darn near close to one. They're basically the only chain brick and mortar video game store in town. If they wanted to exclusively sell used games, then wonderful. Bring back the old stuff too and I'd shop there a heck of a lot more. But the problem is that, in terms of a single company, I'm sure publishers see more sales via GameStop than through any other, yet GameStop actively DISCOURAGES the sales of new games. Now that's an abusive relationship if I've ever seen one.

    I don't really care if someone thinks that's fine or not. My point is simply that it's clear as day that when developers/publishers complain about "used game sales", as they're apt to do in recent years, what they're really complaining about is GameStop. And personally, I have a little more sympathy for the people who create the games I love than the corporate bigwigs at GameStop, so I'd rather see a more fair relationship between them than to simply tell the developers to suck it up.

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