Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 34 of 34

Thread: Bit Rot

  1. #21
    Peach (Level 3)
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    742
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    8 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kai123 View Post
    I have a Castlevania cart for the NES that has bit rot. The character falls right through the floor and dies even in the attract scene when you just let it play it self. No amount of cleaning fixed it so that is what I assumed it was.
    Quote Originally Posted by treismac View Post
    Dude, make a video of this and post it to youtube, then drop us a link. I want to see this "bit rot" in action.
    X2. Not that I would definitely consider it bit-rot, but I would love to see this.

  2. #22
    classicus carnivorous
    digitalpress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Circling about overhead
    Posts
    26,331
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    Xbox LIVE
    Digital Press
    PSN
    digitalpress

    Default

    Wow! Thank you all so much for your input. I figured that many of you would have seen this in 80's and early 90's music CD's but I'm actually relieved to hear at least a few here have had it happen with CD-based games as well. I've seem close-ups of discs with that pinhole effect and many customers have told me about their CD's suddenly stop working but I have never had a disc "go bad" like this for me.

    As for EPROMs, I do consider that a form of bit rot but as stated above, it's true that EPROM manufacturers never guaranteed they'd last longer than 10 years and yes, simply re-writing over them will refresh the data within.

    And I'd completely forgotten about laserdiscs. Not sure if I'll be able to squeeze that into a 20-second bit rot blurb but thanks for the reminder!

  3. #23
    Great Puma (Level 12) Custom rank graphic
    Tupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    4,469
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    10
    Thanked in
    10 Posts

    Default

    Well, it was way, way, way more evident in LaserDiscs because they didn't make many compared to CDs, so when they manufactured them badly, it affected a lot of discs.

  4. #24
    Cherry (Level 1) Shulamana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    224
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Bought a sealed copy of Windows 98 Second Edition last year and the disc has a dark spot on the data side, it installs and works correctly so I imagine it must be language packs and other useless optional crap on the far edge of the disc.

  5. #25
    Alex (Level 15) Custom rank graphic
    Gameguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Richmond Hill, Ontario (Canada)
    Posts
    7,918
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    78
    Thanked in
    70 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shulamana View Post
    Bought a sealed copy of Windows 98 Second Edition last year and the disc has a dark spot on the data side, it installs and works correctly so I imagine it must be language packs and other useless optional crap on the far edge of the disc.
    I've had a few discs like that, it seems the top coat seal isn't that good and the reflective layer is oxidising. If it gets bad enough it won't be readable. I've seen this happen on water damaged discs too.

    Now I have to check the laserdiscs I have, I don't have a player but I've picked up a few discs somewhat recently. I'm hoping they're all right.

  6. #26
    Insert Coin (Level 0)
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    Posts
    71
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerfuzion View Post
    are you guys saying 25 years from now nes and snes games will be worthless?
    The mask roms used in almost all licensed production NES/SNES games do not get bit rot. It only applies to flash or eproms. However that does include many unlicensed games, prototypes, competition carts, homebrews, and repros.

  7. #27
    Pretzel (Level 4) Natty Bumppo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    850
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    12
    Thanked in
    11 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tupin View Post
    I've only ever gotten this on CD-Rs, and I would assume they are a lot more common on them than on pressed discs.

    It may not be relevant to your interests, but LaserDiscs often had laser rot, especially ones manufactured by Sony in the 90's. LaserDiscs had to be made in a very sterile environment otherwise they would be messed up.
    From what I understand the problem with the early laserdiscs was that the glue used (laserdiscs are actually two discs that are glued together) ate into the discs. Which is why virtually all of the discovision (which were the first ones made) suffer from various degrees of laser rot.
    When I come home from a long day in Hell, there's nothing I'd rather reach for than a fire-brewed bottle of Styx Beer. Made from the filthiest waters from our own River Styx. Styx Beer is a third more toxic than any other regular beer. The worst beer - the filthiest beer - the deadliest beer. It's Styx Beer!

  8. #28
    Ryu Hayabusa (Level 16) rbudrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Buying the rare ones, moments before you get there.
    Posts
    8,435
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    I have some VCS games that are Brazilian pirate carts. I carefully peeled back the labels on a couple so I could open the casings in order to better clean the contacts (getting some very odd artifacts in some games). Turned out, the carts used EEPROMS. They were suffering from bitrot for sure. I guess the Brazilian humidity did a number on the EEPROMs.

    -Rob
    The moral is, don't **** with Uncle Tim when he's been drinking!

  9. #29
    Great Puma (Level 12) jb143's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    4,246
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    69
    Thanked in
    62 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rbudrick View Post
    I guess the Brazilian humidity did a number on the EEPROMs.
    I'm not sure how much of an affect humidity would have, but heat is sure to speed up the data loss. What happens in EEROMs is that bits are held high by an electric field(or low by the lack of one). That field slowly dissipates over time as electrons escape...which is sped up the hotter it is. This is why they were only guaranteed to last 10 years or so.

    I would certainly hope that all proto-collectors are aware of this, though I'm pretty sure that most at least make personal ROM dumps right?
    "Game programmers are generally lazy individuals. That's right. It's true. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Since the dawn of computer games, game programmers have looked for shortcuts to coolness." Kurt Arnlund - Game programmer for Activision, Accolade...

  10. #30
    Pretzel (Level 4) rolenta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    860
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tupin View Post
    It may not be relevant to your interests, but LaserDiscs often had laser rot, especially ones manufactured by Sony in the 90's. LaserDiscs had to be made in a very sterile environment otherwise they would be messed up.
    The original LaserDiscs, those manufacturerd by DiscoVision a subsidiary of MCA) suffered from Laser Rot because laserdiscs consisted of two platters that were glued together back-to-back. The glue used in the original LaserDiscs seeped through the alumnium causing the rot. I have an original Laser Disc that I bought in 1979 and it is now unwatchable.
    Leonard Herman
    The Game Scholar
    Publisher of Historical Videogame Books
    http://www.rolentapress.com
    Phoenix 4 coming in 2014

  11. #31
    Ryu Hayabusa (Level 16) rbudrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Buying the rare ones, moments before you get there.
    Posts
    8,435
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jb143 View Post
    I'm not sure how much of an affect humidity would have, but heat is sure to speed up the data loss. What happens in EEROMs is that bits are held high by an electric field(or low by the lack of one). That field slowly dissipates over time as electrons escape...which is sped up the hotter it is. This is why they were only guaranteed to last 10 years or so.

    I would certainly hope that all proto-collectors are aware of this, though I'm pretty sure that most at least make personal ROM dumps right?
    Well, the contacts looked like total shit on these carts. I had to scrape oxidation off some of them (tin colored, not gold, heh). Once a light sanding was done and contacts checked with a multimeter, I was sure the contacts were in good shape. The two or three carts I saw this artifacting on all had EEPROMs, all came from Brazil, all had oxidized contacts. Coincidence? Well, possibly, I guess, but they seemed to have something to do with each other.

    I would like to hear someone's opinion on how humidity could affect an EEPROM, because jb143 is right, it is unlikely when thinking intuitively, but as I've stated, I've been witness to such phenomena, um, maybe, heh.

    -Rob
    The moral is, don't **** with Uncle Tim when he's been drinking!

  12. #32
    ServBot (Level 11)
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    3,239
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    I have one copy of Mega Man 2 that works worse than another. The "bad" copy is the one I grew up with, and it's more likely to garble the graphics while playing. I've always wondered if it's a result of the ROM chips degrading or the connectors, but the connectors are pretty clean. At any rate, it's always funny to see the CHRROM calls get offset and all the text get cyphered. Then, the intro text often contains strong profanity. Considering how hard it was to get games to boot properly back then, I'm surprised there was never a controversy over kids seeing profanity in damaged games.

    Theoretically, could data held on ROM chips be damaged by electrical spikes or overvoltage?

  13. #33
    Great Puma (Level 12) jb143's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    4,246
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    69
    Thanked in
    62 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NayusDante View Post
    Theoretically, could data held on ROM chips be damaged by electrical spikes or overvoltage?
    Not just theoretically. Most chips are designed to work right at 5V and anything over that can damage them. It's even possible to damage a ROM with the static built up from walking across a carpet. I'm not quite sure how likely it is to happen but it is possible.

    Practically though, IC's tend to be a bit tougher than over-voltage and antistatic warnings would have you believe. It's more a case of better safe than sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by rbudrick View Post
    I would like to hear someone's opinion on how humidity could affect an EEPROM, because jb143 is right, it is unlikely when thinking intuitively, but as I've stated, I've been witness to such phenomena, um, maybe, heh.
    -Rob
    Well, the EEPROM itself is sealed...at least it certainly should be, so humidity alone shouldn't effect the contents of the data directly. It could however completely screw up the outside of the chip through corrosion and the like. Erasing an EEPROM typically takes a high voltage so that's not likely to occur from accidentally shorting or breaking something either, through moisture or corrosion for example. Though possibly from voltage spikes and static but that's more likely to "fry" it then erase it.
    Last edited by jb143; 04-04-2012 at 11:51 AM.
    "Game programmers are generally lazy individuals. That's right. It's true. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Since the dawn of computer games, game programmers have looked for shortcuts to coolness." Kurt Arnlund - Game programmer for Activision, Accolade...

  14. #34
    Reticulating Splines BetaWolf47's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Naples, FL
    Posts
    2,810
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NayusDante View Post
    I have one copy of Mega Man 2 that works worse than another. The "bad" copy is the one I grew up with, and it's more likely to garble the graphics while playing. I've always wondered if it's a result of the ROM chips degrading or the connectors, but the connectors are pretty clean. At any rate, it's always funny to see the CHRROM calls get offset and all the text get cyphered. Then, the intro text often contains strong profanity. Considering how hard it was to get games to boot properly back then, I'm surprised there was never a controversy over kids seeing profanity in damaged games.
    You just reminded me, back when I was trying to get my age old NES to work again after about 12 years of inoperation, my copy of Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt DID actually display a certain four letter word. Given the title of the latter game in the compilation, you can figure out what word.
    Selling gaming accessories. Click

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •