What is the best-selling classic console?

[A Black Falcon]

Technically they are extremely similar hardware wise. It was an update, not a complete redesign. A color screen of course, a slight modification for how monochrome palettes are now treated as color palettes, and a few other minor changes. It wasn't the same leap that GBC to GBA was. Technically, an original GB could play GBC games as well, the colors showing as shades of green would generally make it look too screwy to play though so they generally blocked out that ability with the lack of a notch in the cart and a screen that's triggered saying it's only for play on a Game Boy Color.

The GBC is definitely a new system and not just aredesign. It's got exclusive games, more powerful hardware (faster CPU, more RAM, color screen)... what more do you need to make something a new system? They blocked some games from running on the original GB probably because they make use of the more powerful hardware, not just for the reason you say; dual-mode titles generally have to limit themselves to the original GB hardware only, though of course there are a few cases of dual-mode titles with big differences between the GB and GBC versions on the cart, such as R-Type DX or Conker's Pocket Tales.

And yes, the DSi is a new system as well, very similarly to how the GBC is, but with fewer dual-mode games (games enhanced for the upgraded system that also work on the original).

Also, I think some good efforts at GB/GBC sales breakdowns do exist, even if Nintendo itself has generally merged the two. Both sold very well, but separated neither one hits 100 million, obviously (given the 118 million total), so the Playstation is indeed the best selling "classic" console. I'm not sure which system is second offhand, though -- it well might be the Game Boy, not sure if GB or NES is 2nd. (Probably not GBC, but it's certainly high on the list).

Here's the most curious fact about best-sellers per console generation, and it applies to virtually all generations and regions. The console that was the most powerful in terms of hardware/processing power was NOT the best seller. This is my proof for stating that having the best machine is not going to make your console the "best" in terms of sales. How good the software library for the console is, that is a whole other matter entirely.

Quite true. The only time the most powerful even kind of won was the SNES, which was the most powerful system that generation if you ignore the Neo-Geo (and 32X, on the basis that it was an addon and released after some next-gen systems).

[tom]

Not really, the SNES had a CPU which was more 8-bit than 16-bit, and the console processing power was plaqued with slow down quite often.

[A Black Falcon]

Not really, the SNES had a CPU which was more 8-bit than 16-bit, and the console processing power was plaqued with slow down quite often.

The slow CPU is pretty unimportant compared to the great power of the system in every other way. You seriously would say that the Genesis and Turbografx are more powerful than the SNES, really? It's just not true. They have faster CPUs, but are worse in every other way, and those other ways amount to being worse in far more ways than the one that they are better at.

And plus, for games that really do need help, the system was designed for addon chips in the carts.

[Ryudo]

The slow CPU is pretty unimportant compared to the great power of the system in every other way. You seriously would say that the Genesis and Turbografx are more powerful than the SNES, really? It's just not true. They have faster CPUs, but are worse in every other way, and those other ways amount to being worse in far more ways than the one that they are better at.

And plus, for games that really do need help, the system was designed for addon chips in the carts.

Yup SNES had Sony's 8 channel sound chip to Genesis 4 Channel.
Mode-7
More colors than Genesis
Plus SNES had the carts made so if they wanted a Cart could have a chip to extend it's limits. As Shown with games with the FX chip.
=======================================
Also the sales numbers I posted are well documented.
I have many old mags and a couple books plus look around the internet. Those numbers are solid.

The thing that finally pushed SNES past Sega was Street Fighter II. It was a SNES exlusive for a s short while and had very good sales. Not to mention as few remember it was supported by Xband. So you could take it online. When the Genesis version came out it also supported by Xband

[tom]

Extending carts was already done to VCS (Atari's Sara, CBS RAM), so Megadrive could have done that if needed.....hold on Sega done that too (V.R. Virtua Racing).

The SNES colour difference wasn't noticeable when compared to Megadrive either. Same with the sound, there was no issue with that.

Mode 7. Megadrive beat that with speed.


The sales numbers are documented, oh well I got old mags and books too.....as I said the documented book Game Over mentioned Nintendo over exaggerated their sales figures (That book had input from NCL, Yamauchi, Miyamoto and numerous other people from Nintendo), all companies lie to make them look better.

Look around on the internet....sure, on the internet I'm a hunk with dozen girlfriends.

[Ryudo]

Extending carts was already done to VCS (Atari's Sara, CBS RAM), so Megadrive could have done that if needed.....hold on Sega done that too (V.R. Virtua Racing).

The SNES colour difference wasn't noticeable when compared to Megadrive either.

Mode 7. Megadrive beat that with speed.

I can tell you don't know much how chips works or anything to do with computing.
Speed really doesn't mean a thing. Efficiency does. Genesis allowed 64 colors and SNES 256.

Mode-7 is widely known as the most amazing feature SNES had outside it's sound chip. Genesis didn't have Mode-7 Which allowed multiple scaling moving background. Contra III & Terramigma are some good examples of using it in a unique way. Genesis had a 4 channel sound chip. Less advanced than SNES however Genesis was better with bass. SNES 8 channel sound ship from Sony allowed more well channels of sound. It also allowed and he admitted loving the SNES for the first time Nobuo's compositions sounded as intended for the first time. Skip a gen go to PSone vs N64. N64 had a 93MHz CPU yet was lousy at textures and had a lower poly count than PSone. Saturn in all technical aspects had a beast of a powerhouse. (look at the Shenmue Saturn footage to see what the system was capable of) PS2 Vs DC While DC only lasted 2 years so to devs never fully unlocked it's secrets and PS2 had a faster CPU DC was actually better with color and textures reflections and shadows than PS2. In fact just ask my buddy at R* but Shenmue would actually be impossible on PS2. PS2 could not handle it. Sure a screenshot war should show PS2 games looking better than almost any DC game but the architecture was different PS2 was Open GL & DC was Direct X 6.1(to compare Xbox was 8.1) There is another example. GCN was capable of a few things Xbox could not. It was better with load times thanks to it's TSRAM. GCN is also one of the most efficient pieces of hardware ever made in terms of consoles. Also if you go by speed alone PSP's 333MHz was more powerful than PS2? Nope not even close. (PS2 is 294 and 299 in later models)


Also don't forget Nintendo had 2 full years to work on SNES after Genesis launched. You could not pull Yoshi's Island off on Genesis Hardware. It just isn't capable. Same with StarFox(Lylat Wars)

Yeah long blabby post. Also not a fanboy as I love Sega far more.(Fave system is a Sega console and own nearly all of them)

Also that last comment had to be bad sarcasm or else comes off as desperate with a side if insecurity and false machoism.

[tom]

I can tell you don't know much how chips works or anything to do with computing.
Speed really doesn't mean a thing. Efficiency does. Genesis allowed 64 colors and SNES 256.

Mode-7 is widely known as the most amazing feature SNES had outside it's sound chip. Genesis didn't have Mode-7 Which allowed multiple scaling moving background. Contra III & Terramigma are some good examples of using it in a unique way. Genesis had a 4 channel sound chip. Less advanced than SNES however Genesis was better with bass. SNES 8 channel sound ship from Sony allowed more well channels of sound. It also allowed and he admitted loving the SNES for the first time Nobuo's compositions sounded as intended for the first time. Skip a gen go to PSone vs N64. N64 had a 93MHz CPU yet was lousy at textures and had a lower poly count than PSone. Saturn in all technical aspects had a beast of a powerhouse. (look at the Shenmue Saturn footage to see what the system was capable of) PS2 Vs DC While DC only lasted 2 years so to devs never fully unlocked it's secrets and PS2 had a faster CPU DC was actually better with color and textures reflections and shadows than PS2. In fact just ask my buddy at R* but Shenmue would actually be impossible on PS2. PS2 could not handle it. Sure a screenshot war should show PS2 games looking better than almost any DC game but the architecture was different PS2 was Open GL & DC was Direct X 6.1(to compare Xbox was 8.1) There is another example. GCN was capable of a few things Xbox could not. It was better with load times thanks to it's TSRAM. GCN is also one of the most efficient pieces of hardware ever made in terms of consoles. Also if you go by speed alone PSP's 333MHz was more powerful than PS2? Nope not even close. (PS2 is 294 and 299 in later models)


Also don't forget Nintendo had 2 full years to work on SNES after Genesis launched. You could not pull Yoshi's Island off on Genesis Hardware. It just isn't capable. Same with StarFox(Lylat Wars)

Yeah long blabby post. Also not a fanboy as I love Sega far more.(Fave system is a Sega console and own nearly all of them)

Also that last comment had to be bad sarcasm or else comes off as desperate with a side if insecurity and false machoism.

I also have a twelve inch penis

[j_factor]

Mode-7 is widely known as the most amazing feature SNES had outside it's sound chip. Genesis didn't have Mode-7 Which allowed multiple scaling moving background.

Mode 7 only allowed one background layer. Mode 7 is nice, but it's a feature, it does not contribute to how powerful the SNES is.

Genesis had a 4 channel sound chip.

The Genesis had two sound chips and a total of 10 channels.

The slow CPU is pretty unimportant compared to the great power of the system in every other way. You seriously would say that the Genesis and Turbografx are more powerful than the SNES, really? It's just not true. They have faster CPUs, but are worse in every other way, and those other ways amount to being worse in far more ways than the one that they are better at.

The phrase used was "more powerful", not "overall technically better". A better color palette is a technical advantage, but it does not constitute more power. The Commodore 64 is not more powerful than the original Macintosh.

Actual in-game graphics with lighting, texture effects, physics, etc. (not bogus, meaningless theoretical maximums):

PlayStation- roughly 350-500k polygons per second max.
N64- roughly 350-500k polygons per second max.

You've got to be joking. It's more like 100k on N64 and a little higher on Playstation. The Playstation's "meaningless theoretical maximum" is 360k according to Sony. It certainly wasn't doing that in-game.

Dreamcast- roughly 5-6 million polygons per second max.
PS2- roughly 12-15 million polygons per second max.
GameCube- roughly 25 million polygons per second max.
Xbox- roughly 35 million polygons per second max.

The difference between these consoles isn't that large.

DKC came out near the launch of the 32-bit consoles. It was the superior port of MKII that pushes the SNES past the Genesis. It was also around that time when AAA titles like Super Metroid and Starfox came out.

The SNES version of MKII was better, but the Genesis version still outsold it, due to more Mortal Kombat fans already owning the console. However, the difference in sales wasn't nearly as large as with the first one. I don't think it contributed to SNES gaining over Genesis.

[A Black Falcon]

Extending carts was already done to VCS (Atari's Sara, CBS RAM), so Megadrive could have done that if needed.....hold on Sega done that too (V.R. Virtua Racing).

It could somewhat, but not quite to the same extent the SNES could, and as the fact that only one game used an addon chip shows, it wasn't really planned for. In comparison, Nintendo planned for addon chips on the SNES from the beginning, as you can see from the design including those two extra sets of pins on the sides of the cart port that are initially unused.

The SNES colour difference wasn't noticeable when compared to Megadrive either. Same with the sound, there was no issue with that.

The SNES color advantage is VERY noticeable. While the Genesis is running from a small, limited palette, and can only put a small number of colors on screen, the SNES"s huge palette and 256 color graphics give it an advantage the Genesis can never match. In addition, the SNES has a significant audio advantage over the Genesis as well, with a better, higher quality, more capable sound chip.

If you dislike the SNES you're free to your opinion, but don't say things like that as facts when they are not. It's like people who say that the PSX or Saturn are more powerful than the N64 -- no, they of course are not. Don't let your dislike for the system in question blind you to the fact that it IS more powerful!

Mode 7. Megadrive beat that with speed.

Certainly not. Show me the Genesis's answer to F-Zero... oh right, it doesn't have one.

The sales numbers are documented, oh well I got old mags and books too.....as I said the documented book Game Over mentioned Nintendo over exaggerated their sales figures (That book had input from NCL, Yamauchi, Miyamoto and numerous other people from Nintendo), all companies lie to make them look better.

Look around on the internet....sure, on the internet I'm a hunk with dozen girlfriends.

I think it's probably safe to assume that everyone exaggerates their sales figures. Is there any reason to belive that Sega's are any more accurate? I mean, particularly considering that Sega never even GAVE an overall worldwide sales number, and the number we have ("low 40 million range, probably") is far from specific.

N64 had a 93MHz CPU yet was lousy at textures and had a lower poly count than PSone.

That's not really true, when pushed the N64 could do as many polygons as most anything on the PSX. The issue is that the N64 was actually doing effects on its polygons, like Z-buffering, triple buffering, etc., so of course it had a reduced maximum. Its vastly superior polygons more than make up for their slightly reduced number in most titles.

Saturn in all technical aspects had a beast of a powerhouse. (look at the Shenmue Saturn footage to see what the system was capable of)

The Saturn had power, sure, and I like the system quite a bit, but it clearly wasn't as powerful overall as the Playstation, much less the N64.

While DC only lasted 2 years so to devs never fully unlocked it's secrets and PS2 had a faster CPU DC was actually better with color and textures reflections and shadows than PS2.

The Dreamcast IS less powerful than the PS2, and though you're right that the overall graphics level on the system would have gotten better with time -- the system has far too many games ported from the PS1, most notably -- it could never have matched the PS2 overall, much less the Gamecube or Xbox. I do agree that the DC does do some things better than the PS2 (it has better image quality, most notably), but the PS2 is the more powerful system overall.

Oh, and because of how easy the DC is to develop for, a lot of its power WAS pushed by games, much more so than was true for the Saturn on average. At least Sega did learn that lesson.

There is another example. GCN was capable of a few things Xbox could not. It was better with load times thanks to it's TSRAM. GCN is also one of the most efficient pieces of hardware ever made in terms of consoles. Also if you go by speed alone PSP's 333MHz was more powerful than PS2? Nope not even close. (PS2 is 294 and 299 in later models)

That's true, and the Gamecube is pretty close to the Xbox overall for sure... not quite its match, but not far behind! It's closer to the Xbox than the PS1 or Saturn are to the N64, certainly.

That doesn't even make sense. The 65816 is a 16-bit CPU. It's not more 8-bit than 16-bit. It's 16-bit.

Good point, that's true. It's the Turbografx that has the 8-bit CPU.

[Ryudo]

I was just saying Saturn was more powerful than often credited for. Again Check Shenmue footage for it.
Also I know that about PS2 & DC however I was just saying due to different architecture and some limits PS2 had Shenmue would be impossible to put on PS2. Shenmue IIx was more of a remake than a port as they had to do almost everything all over again. However even though Xbox was a PC in a console shell it had a couple familiar things for Sega.
However yes DC I think with full effects in terms of raw power it's limit was 7 million polys. One of the better cases hown what DC could do is again Shenmue but it's Passport disc. GCN was I think 12 million with full effects. I only mention the game as it's just good for technical examples

PS2 I don't know as Sony way inflated the numbers to over 60. I'm only making a total guess but maybe 9-10.
Xbox not sure maybe close to GCN but Xbox was better with shaders I believe. Actually don't think GCN or Wii has shaders.

[chrisbid]

The thing that finally pushed SNES past Sega was Street Fighter II. It was a SNES exlusive for a s short while and had very good sales. Not to mention as few remember it was supported by Xband. So you could take it online. When the Genesis version came out it also supported by Xband

That's not quite right, Sega was number one in sixteen bit sales in 91, 92, and 93. Nintendo took a small lead in 94, and Sega effectively killed the genesis in 95 and handed the still robust 16 bit market over to Nintendo.

The 91 SNES launch was mediocre... Super Mario World did not light the industry on fire like Nintendo had hoped. Meanwhile Sega dropped the price of the Genesis and released Sonic the Hedgehog. You can argue about whether Sonic or SMW was a better game, but at the time Sonic was fresh/new/original/exciting and Mario was getting a bit stale.

Street Fighter II was a defibrillator for the SNES. It got the machine off the mat. It was Nintendo's first strong counterpunch that turned the sixteen bit market into a full fledged war. It would be a year before SFII would come to the genesis, but by that point Mortal Kombat had become the it title, and Nintendo crapped the bed with their content restrictions, giving the genesis another boost.

[wiggyx]

The 91 SNES launch was mediocre... Super Mario World did not light the industry on fire like Nintendo had hoped. Meanwhile Sega dropped the price of the Genesis and released Sonic the Hedgehog. You can argue about whether Sonic or SMW was a better game, but at the time Sonic was fresh/new/original/exciting and Mario was getting a bit stale.

300,000 SFC units sold on launch day. The most EVER sold on launch day (at the time). I wouldn't call that mediocre. Mario may not have been revolutionary, but the other two launch titles, F-Zero and Pilotwings were very much so revolutionary.

As for Sonic, we all know how well he's aged :/

[chrisbid]

300,000 SFC units sold on launch day. The most EVER sold on launch day (at the time). I wouldn't call that mediocre. Mario may not have been revolutionary, but the other two launch titles, F-Zero and Pilotwings were very much so revolutionary.

As for Sonic, we all know how well he's aged :/

great, fanboy rhetoric...

the super nes lagged behind the sega genesis in the US market when the snes launched. it took three bitter years of battling for nintendo to edge ahead of sega. super mario world did not push snes systems off the shelf at the same rate sonic the hedgehog pushed genesis units. street fighter ii was the first killer app for the snes.


and to answer another question, sega drastically pared down their releases on all systems other than the saturn in 1995. here is a list of first party genesis games released in 1995


Adventures of Batman and Robin
Beyond Oasis
College Football National Championship II *
Comix Zone
Ecco Jr X
Garfield: Caught in the Act X
Light Crusader
Magic School Bus X
Marsupilami
NBA Action 95 *
NHL All Star Hockey 95 *
The Oooze
Prime Time NFL Football *
Ristar
Vectorman
VR Troopers X
World Series Baseball 95 *
X Men 2

* sports title, mostly recycled from previous game
X kids title

not a killer list, especially after you take away the sports games.

[Rob2600]

The thing that finally pushed SNES past Sega was Street Fighter II.

Not quite. SFII was very popular on the SNES, but what helped push it past the Genesis in terms of sales was Donkey Kong Country in late 1994.

Sega was number one in sixteen bit sales in 91, 92, and 93. Nintendo took a small lead in 94, and Sega effectively killed the genesis in 95

I thought the Genesis wasn't officially discontinued in North America until 1997?

[Gamevet]

Not quite. SFII was very popular on the SNES, but what helped push it past the Genesis in terms of sales was Donkey Kong Country.

DKC came out near the launch of the 32-bit consoles. It was the superior port of MKII that pushes the SNES past the Genesis. It was also around that time when AAA titles like Super Metroid and Starfox came out.

I thought the Genesis wasn't officially discontinued in North America until 1997?

Sega had moved software support to the Saturn. It was pretty much 3rd party from 94 on.

[Rob2600]

DKC came out near the launch of the 32-bit consoles. It was the superior port of MKII that pushes the SNES past the Genesis. It was also around that time when AAA titles like Super Metroid and Starfox came out.

Donkey Kong Country, Super Metroid, and Mortal Kombat II were all released in 1994 (and Donkey Kong Country and MKII were toward the end of '94). So again, it wasn't until late 1994 that the SNES overtook the Genesis in terms of hardware sales.

I say it was mainly because of DKC, but I'm sure MKII helped as well. According to vgchartz.com, MKII on the SNES = 1.9 million copies, while DKC = 9.3 million copies.

[j_factor]

sorry, double post

[madman77]

Not really, the SNES had a CPU which was more 8-bit than 16-bit

That doesn't even make sense. The 65816 is a 16-bit CPU. It's not more 8-bit than 16-bit. It's 16-bit.