Super NES or Sega Genesis?

[MidnightRider]

Super Aleste / Space Megaforce (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)

Yeah, because that's a proven fact, and not an opinion in any way . That's why these things blow up like they do. You quoted something I said that, by only the context of that 3rd of the entire line, sounds bad, but at least the first 3rd of that line was stating it was in fact opinion.

Air Buster
Arrow Flash
Bio-Hazard Battle
Elemental Master
Fire Shark
Forgotten Worlds
Gaiares
Granada
Grind Stormer
Hellfire
Insector X
Lightening Force
M.U.S.H.A.: Metallic Uniframe Super Hybrid Armor
Phelios
Sagaia
Sol-Deace
Steel Empire
Sub-terrania
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Trouble Shooter
Truxton
Vapor Trail
Wings of Wor
Whip Rush

No multi-platforms(though as far as I know that's just Raiden Trad), no Europe exclusives, no Japan exclusives, and nothing that could be misconstrued as another genre(Ranger X).

It's not like I'd be making a case for Genesis RPG's against the SNES. I don't understand why you can't accept that both consoles are better at an equal amount of things.

[Tanooki]

Aww no mention of SFC Spriggan Powered, it's great and there was also Twinbee (not the same as Pop'n Twinbee.)

Also the SNES could do fine in rendering 3D without the FX chip, it just wasn't really tasked for it is all. Star Trek Starfleet Academy was nothing but 3D the entire time when you were in space through the view screen on the bridge. You can get a few ships plus the phaser shots and torpedoes which are all polygonal, as were the random planets that would pop up in some stages. No they lacked detail if you're going to ask, it was just flat colored polygons, but that was I guess the limit without special chips but that game flies around quite smoothly.

[Leo_A]

I don't know how someone can love this era and not be enthralled by both of these. They have different advantages, but that's part of the charm of the era and they complement each over nicely.

The SuperNes only barely edges it out since I prefer Nintendo as a developer over Sega (At home, at least... Sega is hard to beat in the arcade) and the SuperNes is what I had as a teen (Didn't buy a Genesis until the Genesis 3 appeared from Majesco). There are so many fine games here that I'd miss out on if I just stuck with my Super Nintendo, such as this top notch port of Roadblasters that has kept me occupied lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hFtt533unc

Minus a slightly different sounding engine note and the removal of the tiny bit of voice work in-between levels, it's virtually arcade perfect.

Also the SNES could do fine in rendering 3D without the FX chip, it just wasn't really tasked for it is all. Star Trek Starfleet Academy was nothing but 3D the entire time when you were in space through the view screen on the bridge. You can get a few ships plus the phaser shots and torpedoes which are all polygonal, as were the random planets that would pop up in some stages. No they lacked detail if you're going to ask, it was just flat colored polygons, but that was I guess the limit without special chips but that game flies around quite smoothly.

The 3D there is extremely basic and not at all a good example compared to stuff like this. I'm not even sure the space ships in there are actually composed of polygons, or just 2D sprites being scaled and rotated. And heck, look at that huge border and the tiny amount actually going on in the gameplay window, yet it still seems choppy.



It's especially impressive when you look at the game it was a conversion of on the Amiga.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVKDvLM8pKw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRnA-_UCxJU

They got remarkable close to it as shown in the former link, compared to the latter that was a dull, full 2D, sprite scaler on the SuperNes (Where as the more substantial trackside objects in the Sega version are obviously composed of polygons).

The Genesis was the place to go for 3D. I think the lineups kind of bear that out as well such as all the flight sims on the Genesis where as the Super Nintendo is devoid of any (Unless one counts something like Pilotwings or Wings 2 as flight sims... I'm thinking more along the lines of Mig-29 on the MegaDrive).

[Tanooki]

SNES was just as much if not more to go for 3D, it just needed the FX to do it more smoothly as Hard Drivin and Star Trek were as good as it got on bare hardware, but throw the FX in there and then it was a different thing for many of the games, yet still some like Stunt Race dragged. SNES did get some very very admirable flight simulator(space combat) copies of Wing Commander and the Special Operations levels on two carts, and yeah there is Pilotwings and Wings which counts and it's a really nice title, but it's not 3D persay as much as scaled sprites and mode 7 (like the others.) The only really 3D flight it had was both Starfox games and Vortex. Sega has less everything other than the faster main cpu so they could pull off quicker computations to do nicer/faster lightly detailed polygons without spare parts, but to even get at the level of what the FX chips could do they had to make that $100 cart of Virtua Racing which has that SVP chip (and that is my favorite release of the game too.) Each system has its own perks, SNES at a basic ear and eye candy level tended to win that war, but when basing it upon the actual games and not the candy or special chips tossed at it then it came really down to preference of the unique titles.

[Leo_A]

SNES was just as much if not more to go for 3D, it just needed the FX to do it more smoothly as Hard Drivin and Star Trek were as good as it got on bare hardware, but throw the FX in there and then it was a different thing for many of the games, yet still some like Stunt Race dragged.

A: The stock Genesis hardware is a much more capable 3D console. Lots of games prove that out where as Mode 7 effects or straight sprite scaling, fake 3D, were the order of the day on the SuperNes if you wanted something resembling a playable game with the stock hardware.

B: North American got what, a half dozen Super FX games? The best one used it just to enhance its rotational capabilities and such, not for 3D. The others are junk, or often considered aged tech demos for the best of the lot (Although I still enjoy Stunt Race FX and Star Fox). It has about as much validity here as Virtua Racing does on the Genesis or the 32X add-on and its arcade perfect conversions of Afterburner II and Space Harrier and such.

SNES did get some very very admirable flight simulator(space combat) copies of Wing Commander and the Special Operations levels on two carts

It's not real 3D, they're scaling and rotating sprites for the space ships. Fine conversions that I've enjoyed and played to completion (The original on the real deal, and the expansion via EA Replay on my PSP), but I'm not criticizing its sprite scaling capabilities. I think games like Top Gear demonstrate that the SuperNes had the edge in this area (Although the Genesis is no slouch, either)

and yeah there is Pilotwings and Wings which counts

They're really not flight sims. Pilotwings is pure arcade action, despite gamers that never played a sim being fond of considering Pilotwings as a sim. And Wings 2 really doesn't have any sim elements of note despite the setting.

[Leo_A]

Without knowing the programming background, development schedule, and so on that could play factors, here's an example of what I'm talking about.

Race Drivin' for the Super Nintendo, unplayable by most any definition with what appears to be a single digit frame rate and poor sense of speed.



Race Drivin' for the Sega Genesis, which while not for most, performs with speed and smoothness where at least many could envision someone actually playing it. Probably pushing about 20 FPS, which while teetering precariously on the edge of playability, is significantly better than the competitor.



Neither probably should've been attempted with the stock hardware, but kids that got the Genesis port on Christmas day at least found something that provided a bit of fun.

[Tanooki]

Leo, that's your opinion on the Genesis, it just has a faster chip however you want to use it then there's the result. It's no mystery the main SNES cpu was notably slower. I think I already said that anyways that the SNES needed the FX to outdo it and it needed the SVP just to pull off Virtua Racing.

I never said WC1 or Pilotwings was 3D. I just said they were admirable flight simulators. I know what they're doing for those effects and all in all they were impressive enough in the day. Like you said neither were a slouch but SNES had the edge with this type of stuff with scaling, sprites and mode7 type things.

I know they're arcade style but they're still flight simulation, just not 'accurate' as none of it is any MS flight simulator or Falcon 3.0 by any means.

Race Drivin I just threw out there as an example of it doing some kind of 3D without the FX. I know it's terribly slow. I've played both and I think both are too slow for their own good, though the Sega one just barely skates by much like Stunt Race FX does on SNES. Neither should have been released and Stunt Race should have been optimized or shelved for the FX2 how it handles. I've seen (and played) that one overclocked to the FX2 rate and damn it's fun at that pace.

[Leo_A]

Leo, that's your opinion on the Genesis

True, but one where the evidence I think is clearly supportive of my side.

I think I already said that anyways that the SNES needed the FX to outdo it and it needed the SVP just to pull off Virtua Racing.

I think it was clear that I was talking about their stock capabilities. When it comes to polygons, only one of the two is really able to pull off a good game or at least one that's playable.

And I think it's quite fair that Virtua Racing Deluxe cost as much as it did. It seems to be able to push out more polygons and manipulate them much faster than the Super FX chip could. Without that crucial sense of speed, it would've been just a wasted effort. Instead, it did justice to a big 3D arcade hit at the time on an economical late 1980's game console.

I never said WC1 or Pilotwings was 3D. I just said they were admirable flight simulators. I know what they're doing for those effects and all in all they were impressive enough in the day.

I was talking about their true 3D games.

Regardless that it's 2D trickery being used to achieve something that seems 3D, there's nothing sim there. Pilotwings is pure arcade action. But I agree that it was an excellent effort. Heck, I just paid $8 for it just to have it on my Wii U.

For what many unfortunately write off as a mere tech demo, I think there's a fine game there that plays well and looks nice. It's smart development that played to the system's strengths rather than trying to pull something off that it just couldn't do, like Race Drivin' on a stock Super Nintendo.

I'm similarly fond of Pilotwings 64, another game that's sadly written off as a tech demo not worth bothering with now that it doesn't wow people with its graphical prowess.

If you also enjoy these arcade "flight sims" with varied challenges, check out Sky Odyssey sometime for the PS2.

[MidnightRider]

SNES had the edge with this type of stuff with scaling, sprites and mode7 type things.

On stock hardware, the Genesis had the edge with sprites. On paper the SNES' spec sheets say it handles more, but in practice you often see much more on a Genesis screen. Again that one most likely came down to the processors. Sprite scaling and rotation happened on the Genesis, the one time it did on the SNES, in Mario Kart, was due to the DSP chip. That said, the SNES had those effects built into it, for backgrounds(bosses that had those effects were unused background layers). The spriting capabilities of the Genesis also led to better animations, with a couple games even having had animation studio's involved in the development process. It's all software for the Genesis, but it's well known processor was so much easier to program for, that a great deal of developers still took the time to program it all in.

[celerystalker]

Am I wrong to love how similar this thread is getting to the lunchroom conversations from the era?

I think a lot of adults have found a nice home on the Genesis because of its acessible arcade and Amiga ports. I'll love my SNES all the same, even if its arcade ports don't get the same recognition as Shinobi. Games like Magic Sword, King of Dragons, and Cybernator are every bit the equal, though, but 16 bit shooter fans are screwing themselves by not having Turbografx or PC Engine Duo. Yep, Musha, Axelay, and ThunderForce are great. Play the Star Soldiers, Blazing Lazers, Gate of Thunder, Spriggan, Gradius II, Salamander, R-Type Complete, Air Zonk, L Dis, Sapphire, etc. and then try to tell me how good Sol Deace and Sub Terrania really are.

They all suck truck nuts at 3D out of the box. All of them. If that is why you play a 16 bit console, you might be confused.

[Leo_A]

I'll leave tech specs to others to debate, but from experience, I don't picture the Genesis being able to rival something like this.



If the Genesis hardware indeed is the superior of the two where sprite scaling is concerned, I never saw evidence of that in the final product. Especially in the racing game genre where sprite scaling was so commonplace during the 16 bit era.

Something like the Super Monaco games on the Genesis or Domark's fine racers that I've brought up in this thread, don't push nearly so many 2D sprites as Top Gear does for the competitors and the trackside objects.

But toss in some polygons into the mix, like the elevated freeways and on-ramps in Outrun 2019, and it's Genesis all the way.

[Niku-Sama]

Without knowing the programming background, development schedule, and so on that could play factors, here's an example of what I'm talking about.

Race Drivin' for the Super Nintendo, unplayable by most any definition with what appears to be a single digit frame rate and poor sense of speed.



Race Drivin' for the Sega Genesis, which while not for most, performs with speed and smoothness where at least many could envision someone actually playing it. Probably pushing about 20 FPS, which while teetering precariously on the edge of playability, is significantly better than the competitor.



Neither probably should've been attempted with the stock hardware, but kids that got the Genesis port on Christmas day at least found something that provided a bit of fun.

I tried playing that on snes the other day. It definitely needs an over clock. Wonder if there's a way to do that

[Leo_A]

Via emulation such as the Retron 5, it is.

And not a bad idea, I bet speeding it up would do wonders for it.

[WCP]

The Genesis does have a much better selection of shmups. A much bigger selection, and probably stronger overall titles as well. I kinda forgot about all the great shooters that hit the Genesis.

Ok, so the Genesis has sports games and shooters locked up. I'll definitely give it those two categories without argument.

[Alianger]

Couple of threads that might be of interest here;

Polygon/Ray-casting based graphics on MD:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...-Drive-Genesis

Scaling and rotation on MD:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...g-and-rotation

[MidnightRider]

I'll leave tech specs to others to debate, but from experience, I don't picture the Genesis being able to rival something like this.

I'll admit racers aren't something I've paid attention to, but whereas Koranot from Super Castlevania IV is a background object, the growing/shrinking(when taking a hit) final form of Dracula on the Genesis, with a background with effects, was a sprite. That kind of scaling you never saw in SNES sprites during action games. There's a lot more examples, but that's the only one fresh on my mind, plus being games from the same series made that comparison easier. Alianger's 2nd link shows off some of the others.

but 16 bit shooter fans are screwing themselves by not having Turbografx or PC Engine Duo. Yep, Musha, Axelay, and ThunderForce are great. Play the Star Soldiers, Blazing Lazers, Gate of Thunder, Spriggan, Gradius II, Salamander, R-Type Complete, Air Zonk, L Dis, Sapphire, etc. and then try to tell me how good Sol Deace and Sub Terrania really are.

Not exactly relevant to the conversation at hand, but again how much of that is Japan exclusive, from the disc add-on(for the record it's not like the Sega CD doesn't add anything to the genre either), or both? The list I made was specific to the console without add-ons, or from non-NA regions, about half of which of which still made it to Europe.

[Tanooki]

Good point on the retron5, it does do turbo with a button pushed down though I think it's on the roster if it wasn't added since i lost mine to have an on/off switch in the menus. Beyond that, I doubt the game could get overclocked on the stock hardware cartridge, yet an oc mod of the total system would probably do something to it. Drakon did some OC work on FX chip games bringing them up to some very smooth and fast/fluid motion in particular with both Starfox games, Stunt Race and DOOM and they ran amazing, with proof of concept videos up on youtube if they're still there.

The Genesis had the SNES with the main CPU, it also by preference of the buyer had them in total quality if you were a space shooter junky as they got a heap of them both in quantity and quality. SNES had a lot too but nothing on the level of Sega, yet both got spanked by NEC with the PC ENgine/CD setup. Yet much of that also didn't come to the US and unless you got a mod cart slot or bought a Duo and just imported JP discs you were out of luck.

[genesisguy]

Genesis probably did have a better variety of games.

Doesn't mean the games were better though. Sure, there are all the common SNES games that everybody points to, and with good reason, but there are many more games that don't always get mentioned, that should be mentioned:


Contra 3 - Amazingly, I don't always see this game mentioned among the SNES classics

Castlevania 4 - Sometimes this game is included with Metroid and such, sometimes not

F-Zero - some people don't think F-Zero is all that great. I think it's a masterpiece.

Super Ghouls & Ghosts - this one definitely isn't mentioned as much as it probably should be

U.N. Squadron - Another sensational classic SNES game that doesn't get mentioned with the Mario Worlds...

Super Smash TV - excellent SNES cart that doesn't get it's fair share of props

TMNT: Turtles in Time - Genesis version is good, but I think SNES version is better

Starfox - Honestly, the tech of Nintendo was way beyond Genesis in regards to this game. Even the 32X games don't seem as good as Starfox

Axelay - Another shooter that I don't think gets anywhere the level of praise it should get

Pilotwings - Hasn't aged too well, but I think this game is still damn good

Actraiser - This game was magical when it first arrived.

Donkey Kong Country - Yes, I know this game is nowhere near as good as most people think, but it's still pretty damn solid.

NBA Live Series - This started with NBA Live '95 on the Super Nintendo. Genesis versions are very good, but I like the SNES versions better. So much more color and better sound.

Final Fight - I still think the original Final Fight on SNES is pretty amazing. Yeah, I know it's missing a two player option, etc, etc...

Yoshi's Island - This game is sometimes mentioned with the all-time classic SNES games, but sometimes it's left out

I understand you're just mentioning great games on the SNES. A lot of those titles you mentioned have what I'd think better counterparts on the Genesis. But again I don't think you we're looking for that sort of argument, and that would totally bring this back to the 6th grade lunch room.

But I have to bring up one thing...

If you're going to mention the NBA Live series and hand it to the SNES you have to mention the EA NHL series and hand that one to the Genesis. Take any year and compare Genesis to SNES. The SNES version will always feel sluggish and the frame rate on the SNES is terrible. It's easy to tell that some of the frames of animation are cut from the SNES.

[mario-fan]

The age-old question. I dunno, for me this is a tough one - I had a Super NES as a kid but my best friend down the street had a Genny - so I played tons of Genesis games (but mostly Sonic) over his house. So based on gaming times 'way back when,' I'd have to say tie, since I had so much fun with each. But these days I have to give the nod to the SNES - I just think it has a much deeper catalog, and there are so many games for it that I love. Fire Emblem 4/5, Super Aleste, Mario All-Stars, all the old classic Square games - Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy IV/VI, Super Metroid, Mario Kart, on and on and on. At this point Genesis is mostly nostalgia factor for me. Probably the one Genesis gem that I remember: I got my buddy a copy of 'Mazin Saga' from the bargain bin for his birthday one year... Turned out to be this classic game neither of us could stop playing, great combination of beat-'em-up and big Street Fighter style boss battles at the end of each stage. Awesome.

[Tanooki]

Genesis that's a given, EA halfassed every single game they put on the SNES. I think they did it only out of necessity to make some cash, they didn't care otherwise as they had the most sloppiest halfassed ports I think of any notable developer which was sad. NHL94 still among many 20 years later is the king of the non-3D(if not overall) hockey games they made and the SNES one was just sad, worse than the PC version too. I've had all 3 releases and it's just shameless how EA did Nintendo across the board from sports, to their 'Strike' series and others. EA has always had that game they played to screw people in each generation, you just have to look and see how they decided to screw with such as their public baby behavior with the Dreamcast and sandbagging the Saturn though that one was Sega's fault.