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Thread: HDTVs and scaling

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    Insert Coin (Level 0) Einzelherz's Avatar
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    Default HDTVs and scaling

    I finally joined the world in 2005 and bought an HDTV. As I'm sure you all know, my older consoles (which would be all of my consoles) look like crap. The Wii, running on component in 480p with the 16:9 aspect adjustment actually doesn't look too bad, but it also doesn't seem to fill the screen completely on some things (MM9, for instance). This got me thinking.

    Why doesn't there exist a TV/monitor that actually scales incoming signals rather than stretching them? Or am I thinking too digital and the older consoles don't actually work anything like a computer in the first place? What I mean is if I'm feeding a 480p 4:3 feed for instance, the TV *could* perform a 2:1 scale and have a perfect looking screen while losing only 120 vertical lines. I've done this from my PC over HDMI with emulators and it looks fantastic.

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    First step, eliminate RF and composite where avoidable. Being lossy formats they mean the TV gets sent pre-damaged video.
    Anything like s-video / component / RGB or similar can be major improvement.

    Blank overscan area is very common. Console games often don't draw to their full screen edges.

    MM9 is 480i only on Wii. Unfortunately for 480p you must buy either its PS3 or 360 version.
    Lum fan.

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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    While it would be nice, there's just no consumer demand for this functionality. Displaying at native resolutions is always the priority.

    You may have better luck getting a dedicated device for upscaling/etc. to hook up your older consoles.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

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    Quote Originally Posted by Einzelherz View Post
    I finally joined the world in 2005 and bought an HDTV. As I'm sure you all know, my older consoles (which would be all of my consoles) look like crap.
    Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

    I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob2600 View Post
    Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

    I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.
    You have an HDTV with S-Video? SNES had amazing S-Video though. NES, anything SEGA or Atari or Coleco will look like crap.

    To the OP, there are 70/80 dollar RF demodulators (check Ambery website) which clean up composite and RF signals. Beyond that you would have to look at standalone video upscalers, which cost several hundred dollars. DVDO, XRGB, are some of the manufacturers. Anything older than the Dreamcast is not going to look all that great on newer sets.

    I've personally spent a good deal of change on composite mods and RGB cables, video upscaler, etc., but I've gotten almost all my systems (other than Pong) to what I'd consider maximum picture quality. I was playing some of them last night in fact, and it's really like using an emulator on my PC, very crisp.
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    ServBot (Level 11) Rob2600's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    You have an HDTV with S-Video?
    Yes, a Toshiba 32HL66 from 2006.


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    Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

    I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.

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    I've found it worthwhile to search your TV model, or prospective model on forums like avsforum.com, which has a lot of TV techies there.
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    Great Puma (Level 12) skaar's Avatar
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    I don't know about anyone else but models of TVs don't seem to stay around more than a few months anymore and specs always change. I was trying to get a second monitor to twin with another and I had zero luck.
    <Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltone View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggyx View Post
    Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

    I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.
    No kidding. You can add the one I have to the good list as I got lucky with it. I run my NES and SNES on the thing and the image is very crisp, I don't get any lag problems, and it fills the screen except for like a 1cm border around the edges. It's a Panasonic Viera TC-26LX70 and it has 2 s-video(don't use them), component(1), composite(3), and hdmi (2). Rated at 720p, but my PS3 seems to think it is and will run at 1080p.

    http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-2...pr_product_top

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    Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

    Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

    You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.
    Last edited by Parodius Duh!; 06-08-2013 at 03:54 AM.

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    i guess I got lucky then with my HDTV....sad thing is, once it dies, I'll never find one that does the classic system. Sooner or later, we just won't be able to use them at all on HDTV or not without boxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parodius Duh! View Post
    Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

    Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

    You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.
    This is what I currently have implemented. I have my old 27" Phillips that the HDTV replaced in my bedroom. I was mostly just wondering if what I'm dreaming of is even possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parodius Duh! View Post
    Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

    Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

    You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.
    This is simply not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parodius Duh! View Post
    Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

    Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.
    And here's what I say to this: keep TWO CRT TVs for gaming period. One standard CRT for the older games and a CRT HDTV for the newer consoles. No LCD I've ever used matches the quality I get on my Sony KV-30HS420 CRT HDTV; this thing has just downright gorgeous video. Even in Composite, the video quality is actually not too bad (RF is complete crap, but no surprises here). And yes, this TV does have HDMI. It doesn't do 1080p, but quite frankly, with the quality of the video signal at 1080i, you really don't need 1080p on this TV.

    Of course, this isn't a viable option for some people, so at the minimum, you could have an LCD, LED, etc. TV and alongside that, have a decent-sized CRT with Composite and S-Video inputs (though I suggest trying to find one with Component inputs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob2600 View Post
    Yes, a Toshiba 32HL66 from 2006.

    My dad had a similar Toshiba, don't know if it's the same exact model but it was 32" and looked just like your image there. It had S-Video, but after he got a newer TV, I took this one hoping for better retro gaming than on my S-videoless Samsung, but the S-video honestly looked just as bad as the composite on the Toshiba, and both looked worse than composite on the Samsung.

    I got rid of that Toshiba (my sister wanted it for some reason even though she doesn't have an HD cable box) and instead got a cheap composite/S-video to HDMI convertor. It's not perfect, but it's about the best I can get the N64 to look on a HDTV.

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    Well that Toshiba may have a good amount of SD inputs, it has only one HDMI, which is bad, but typical for 2006.

    I wouldn't agree that you need TWO CRT's. Honestly, if possible I would get a Sony Trinitron or WEGA, or something similar with a flat CRT screen and Component video input. Games on RF will look like garbage regardless of the TV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggyx View Post
    This is simply not true.
    Your not true, cause what I said is 100% true dig up any old thread in regards to the topic at hand. Vintage games work best with what they were designed for, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parodius Duh! View Post
    Your not true, cause what I said is 100% true dig up any old thread in regards to the topic at hand. Vintage games work best with what they were designed for, period.
    It's oversimplifying the matter. Amount of effect varies by console, TV, cables...
    Lum fan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parodius Duh! View Post
    Ive said it before and Ill say it again.

    Keep a CRT television for your classic gaming! They will never look good on any HDTV! Goodwill usually has a ton of CRTs for like $5-10 bucks these days so theres no excuse. Vintage systems will function the best with the equipment they were designed for, that being the good ol' CRT.

    You may get lucky like very few have here and get a good HDTV that somehow forces the system to at least be the correct screen size. Its too rare of an occurrence however and until television companies perfect vintage gaming systems to run on new sets, every vintage gamer should have a small or medium sized CRT, or if all you do is vintage game then get a nice big CRT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parodius Duh! View Post
    Your not true, cause what I said is 100% true dig up any old thread in regards to the topic at hand. Vintage games work best with what they were designed for, period.
    First pick your argument. Which one is it?

    I don't need to dig anything up. I have 4 HDTVs in the house. 2 of them get along horribly with anything pre-PS/Saturn, one does a fair job, while the 4th is absolutely perfect as far as I'm concerned. Clearer, crisper picture than on any of the CRTs (3 analoque and one digital Sony) that I own and no noticeable lag.

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