HDTVs and scaling

[Einzelherz]

I finally joined the world in 2005 and bought an HDTV. As I'm sure you all know, my older consoles (which would be all of my consoles) look like crap. The Wii, running on component in 480p with the 16:9 aspect adjustment actually doesn't look too bad, but it also doesn't seem to fill the screen completely on some things (MM9, for instance). This got me thinking.

Why doesn't there exist a TV/monitor that actually scales incoming signals rather than stretching them? Or am I thinking too digital and the older consoles don't actually work anything like a computer in the first place? What I mean is if I'm feeding a 480p 4:3 feed for instance, the TV *could* perform a 2:1 scale and have a perfect looking screen while losing only 120 vertical lines. I've done this from my PC over HDMI with emulators and it looks fantastic.

[theclaw]

First step, eliminate RF and composite where avoidable. Being lossy formats they mean the TV gets sent pre-damaged video.
Anything like s-video / component / RGB or similar can be major improvement.

Blank overscan area is very common. Console games often don't draw to their full screen edges.

MM9 is 480i only on Wii. Unfortunately for 480p you must buy either its PS3 or 360 version.

[skaar]

While it would be nice, there's just no consumer demand for this functionality. Displaying at native resolutions is always the priority.

You may have better luck getting a dedicated device for upscaling/etc. to hook up your older consoles.

[Rob2600]

I finally joined the world in 2005 and bought an HDTV. As I'm sure you all know, my older consoles (which would be all of my consoles) look like crap.

Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.

[Greg2600]

Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.

You have an HDTV with S-Video? SNES had amazing S-Video though. NES, anything SEGA or Atari or Coleco will look like crap.

To the OP, there are 70/80 dollar RF demodulators (check Ambery website) which clean up composite and RF signals. Beyond that you would have to look at standalone video upscalers, which cost several hundred dollars. DVDO, XRGB, are some of the manufacturers. Anything older than the Dreamcast is not going to look all that great on newer sets.

I've personally spent a good deal of change on composite mods and RGB cables, video upscaler, etc., but I've gotten almost all my systems (other than Pong) to what I'd consider maximum picture quality. I was playing some of them last night in fact, and it's really like using an emulator on my PC, very crisp.

[Rob2600]

You have an HDTV with S-Video?

Yes, a Toshiba 32HL66 from 2006.

[wiggyx]

Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.

[Greg2600]

I've found it worthwhile to search your TV model, or prospective model on forums like avsforum.com, which has a lot of TV techies there.

[Tanooki]

Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.

No kidding. You can add the one I have to the good list as I got lucky with it. I run my NES and SNES on the thing and the image is very crisp, I don't get any lag problems, and it fills the screen except for like a 1cm border around the edges. It's a Panasonic Viera TC-26LX70 and it has 2 s-video(don't use them), component(1), composite(3), and hdmi (2). Rated at 720p, but my PS3 seems to think it is and will run at 1080p.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-2...pr_product_top

[Sneak613]

Finding the right TV is really key. Upscalers are great, but pricey.

I feel like this site (or some other) should have a database for stuff like this. You know, where people can post their experiences with and images of their setups in action. This question comes up ALL THE TIME, and understandably so considering how hard it is to research classic console to HDTV compatibility.

I agree wholeheartedly. It would be great if there was some sort of database/resource or "sticky-ed thread" that had people who mention what TV they have - model number, what cables they've used and the pros/cons of the TV with retro/modern consoles.

Like Wiggy mentioned, this question always seems to come up, and nobody really has a direct answer other than "go to the thrift shop and pick up a used CRT TV".

I think it would be a very helpful/useful resource to have some sort of list showing what TV's people are using, and what kind of TV should be purchased to give the best results.

Oh, and if anybody is curious, I still use a CRT TV - a 32" Sony - model kv32hs510 to be exact. Like some of have mentioned in the past, the thing is a beast - well over 150lbs.

I've been looking into buying a new LED TV (or some sort of more modern flatscreen TV), but have no idea what might be my best choice. I already realize that I'm not going to find a new TV with S-Video inputs. I primarily would be looking to run my NES/SNES on it (I don't care if the lightgun works).

It would just be nice to have some sort of resource to read over to see what's best, or what people in the past have had good results with.

[BlastProcessing402]

Yes, a Toshiba 32HL66 from 2006.

My dad had a similar Toshiba, don't know if it's the same exact model but it was 32" and looked just like your image there. It had S-Video, but after he got a newer TV, I took this one hoping for better retro gaming than on my S-videoless Samsung, but the S-video honestly looked just as bad as the composite on the Toshiba, and both looked worse than composite on the Samsung.

I got rid of that Toshiba (my sister wanted it for some reason even though she doesn't have an HD cable box) and instead got a cheap composite/S-video to HDMI convertor. It's not perfect, but it's about the best I can get the N64 to look on a HDTV.

[Greg2600]

Well that Toshiba may have a good amount of SD inputs, it has only one HDMI, which is bad, but typical for 2006.

I wouldn't agree that you need TWO CRT's. Honestly, if possible I would get a Sony Trinitron or WEGA, or something similar with a flat CRT screen and Component video input. Games on RF will look like garbage regardless of the TV.

[Zing]

Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I connect my SNES to my 32" 720p HDTV via S-video and it looks pretty much perfect, not blurry or stretched out.

I guess the results vary widely from HDTV to HDTV, which is too bad.

I can't remember where I read this, or the reasoning behind it, but 720p native panels display SD content much more accurately than higher resolution panels. I used this information back in 2006 to buy a Sony 50" 720p LCD rear projection, and yes, PlayStation and older games, even via composite, looked perfectly fine.

[Tanooki]

The older 720p native sets that don't have all the required and either non-existent or easily disabled garbage filters that cause problems probably due to the time they're made had more in mind in trying to keep older standards working to help convert people off big ass heavy old boobtubes. It would fit with the reports showing up including my tv being quite happy with the old 2D systems.

Maybe it is worth more going into it, make a poll of sorts with another thread of just people using 720p LCD tvs how the things handle old 8/16bit systems with the fluff turned off.

[Einzelherz]

The older 720p native sets that don't have all the required and either non-existent or easily disabled garbage filters that cause problems probably due to the time they're made had more in mind in trying to keep older standards working to help convert people off big ass heavy old boobtubes. It would fit with the reports showing up including my tv being quite happy with the old 2D systems.

Maybe it is worth more going into it, make a poll of sorts with another thread of just people using 720p LCD tvs how the things handle old 8/16bit systems with the fluff turned off.

It might also be that 720/3 is 240, which is both a common vertical res and very close to those that aren't 240 so if they're stretching it would only be a couple of lines.

[CRTGAMER]

Gaaah I hate rear projection TVs! When viewed from an angle, the picture is dim and then there are the expensive bulb changes. Happy with HD CRT WEGAs which I have a "spare" in the bedroom, a nice bright pic at any angle and can handle ALL consoles as well as HDMI signals just fine. No need for a SD tube TV unless one wants to use a Retro Light Gun.

@ wiggyx - Visit my Home Page concerning Lightguns, WEGAs and Rear Projection TVs. SD Wegas do work with the Light Gun, Rear Projection on the whole do not.