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Thread: RetroN5: Hands on first look

  1. #1221
    Key (Level 9) Satoshi_Matrix's Avatar
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    it's probably frameskipping. I've noticed that happens a lot in slightly advanced SNES games. In particular I find Super FX games to be unplayable due to the frame skipping, from Star Fox to Yoshi's Island.

    These are issues I hope Hyperkin fixes soon.
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    I have no idea. I just played it on a micro and I never could pull off the combos with the crappy random rhythm you have to pick up I think almost instantly or you fail to make contact so I walked away from it. Maybe it's the emulator, maybe it's input lag caused by the tv, maybe it's a hair of a delay from the bluetooth controller. I don't think the emulator actually does frame skip. I think it does have sync errors with some games, they're working to clear those out. Supposedly beta5 fixed the sync problem with DKC some people are saying so far.

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    It's definitely not frameskipping - you can tell by how smooth the psychedelic animated backgrounds are during battle. There's some kind of weird sync issue happening in battle that I can't really wrap my head around. I have noticed weird issues with Donkey Kong Country where if I play for a bit, it starts to drop frames like it's struggling to keep up, but saving state, closing, then re-opening usually fixes it. Can't explain any of this... I just want to be able to play Mother 3 with my Retron 5, whether it's with my JP cart or Piko's repro.

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    That's what I said before from what the tech and I were talking about. There is a sync error which is causing the eventual skipping effect one sees thinking it is the framerate with DKC, Yoshis Island and a few others so I imagine Mother 3 falls into the same family and it is a bug being addressed and will in time be fixed.

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    As I am fairly certain of what your reply would be if I asked you if you prefer the Ouya to the Retron 5, I won't bother, but, Satoshi, how does the Retron 5 stack up to the Super Retro Trio? Also, what kind of tv(s) have you played the Super Retro Trio with? I've read that the clone plays much better on CRTs, and I was wondering if you could confirm or deny this.
    Last edited by treismac; 09-17-2014 at 12:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by treismac View Post
    As I am fairly certain of what your reply would be if I asked you if you prefer the Ouya to the Retron 5, I won't bother, but, Satoshi, how does the Retron 5 stack up to the Super Retro Trio? Also, what kind of tv(s) have you played the Super Retro Trio with? I've read that the clone plays much better on CRTs, and I was wondering if you could confirm or deny this.
    First, you gotta understand I'm not a hater of the Retron5. I bought the thing. I want the thing. I have a huge collection of carts and the Retron5 makes them actually relevant on my HDTV as I have zero plans to spend hundreds on an xRGB. My anger at Hyperkin is mostly at the three month delay from the time I expected my Retron5 to ship to the time it actually did. That delay was bullshit to the nth degree. Imagine if it were made in Canada and it were Americans that had to wait three months post the Canadian release.

    The other source of my anger comes from the fact that the Retron5 lacks basic emulation features that the Ouya -and emulators on every other device- come with stock. I can't assign turbo fire buttons? I can't map fastforward to a single button using an original controller like SNES? Screenshots are in JPEG format? These oversights are baffling. How is it the Retron5 can be so barebones when its singular purpose is emulation of these 10 specific formats and the Ouya nailed it right away when emulators are just one of many things that it does?


    Now to answer your question....I won't answer your question. At least not directly. The Ouya vs Retron5? That's a fair debate. Retron5 vs Super Retro Trio? Emulator vs Reverse Engineered hardware clone? Nope, not gonna do that. The two exist in different worlds, are intended for different types of tvs, and are for different kinds of retro gamers. They're also $50 apart. The SRT is best used with an SDTV, a CRT. You don't want to be rocking that on an HDTV because of native resolutions and all that. The Retron5 is HDTV only, although you could run it on an SD display with some crazy adapter.
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    I don't think anyone here believes you're a Retron hater, but I think it's a safe bet enough feel that you're so pro-Ouya that it creates an unfair slant against the R5. That seems to keep popping up with the comments, comparisons, and really chincy nitpicks against the R5. For one you have a rubiks cube box, a catch all device which has a controller with it too but is known for lag. The emulators on the Ouya also introduce some input and sync lag inherent with Android, but also with the multi-OS ported FREE emulators that have been around for years in some form or another (some as far back as the 1990s with SNES9Xex.) You love the thing, you've gushed over it heaps and all how it's open to do this and that. To date, you've had little to nothing nice to say about the R5, it has been all feeding off others comments and being infuriated over Amazon and their delays. You seem stuck on the fact it's an US company that shipped to the US first and NEVER promised it day one in Canada, Amazon blew that one, but hey why point at them right?

    This R5 you keep lying and lying about saying it is 'bare bones' ...hardly. It's pitched as a console. The Ouya is pitched as a multimedia box that in turn also plays games. They're not the same. One uses emulators that have been around a LONG time, the other has been live and still in development for 3 months now (and yes I know it was developed closed for a time too.) The system is NOT barebones, wish you could get beyond your narrow love of the Ouya and fury over the delays on the thing. You clearly own one, must be easy to discount that HUGE menu there with many features on it. Audio and visual changes and filters. Save and Load states. Screen captures. Full file system manager for save data and images, and now IPS and UPS patches to run foreign games with patches to english or total conversions (which emulators in general don't do, you have to hard patch a ROM.) The screen captures you're lying about too, they do PNG now, keep up with the updates eh? The Ouya itself didn't nail shit! They didn't make the emulators, development of them, or welcome them, it was third party people who put the stuff up there, stuff that already existed on other platforms so why do you keep giving credit where it is NONE due??

    This drama queen bullshit is getting old you know it? If you're going to be a so called objective reviewer with your write-ups and videos, how about getting a start on being objective? You bring up invalid garbage, twist stories, and omit things that do exist for whatever reason. Understand you're not the center of their development world. This system is still in development on the software side and they're adding a ton of unintended features as it is already people have requested. Don't let your head get larger, but I'm sure your want of a turbo button(auto fire) and single button short cuts will happen and sooner than later, they're easy to add, just not essential compared to compatibility and stability issues. I'd think you'd care about stability, Ouya's emulators don't have it, they drop frames due to weaker hardware and fall out of sync too, and the input lag is noticeable on that one too. I did my research when I didn't buy the Ouya.

    Look I like you, you do nice reviews in general, and to this point you've come off pretty objective on stuff, but this one you're just way out of line on and it's bordering into the land of selective memory witch hunt.

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    Oy....long post. This is gonna take a while to break down.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    I don't think anyone here believes you're a Retron hater, but I think it's a safe bet enough feel that you're so pro-Ouya that it creates an unfair slant against the R5.
    I am pro-Ouya, but I am not dismissive of the Ouya's current problems. The system has but a single USB port and thus requires you to use a powered USB hub if you want to do something crazy like use a storage medium and a controller. The Ouya controller isn't well suited for most of the emulators because it's wireless. There's a lot pure junk on Ouya, and it makes finding good games difficult. Ouya changed its policy in the spring from the initial promise of "all games are free to try in some way" to letting devs get away with asking for payment before you even try their game. This does not sit right with me when it comes to indie titles from unknown developers. Let me play your game for at least a few minutes before a paywall. Everything should have a demo if not be completely free. Initial paywalls mean I probably won't ever play your game no matter how good it is, and I'm not alone in that. It's a stupid, stupid business model that does not belong on the Ouya. Another problem is non-standardized pricing. Unlike ios or the google app store, prices on Ouya games are all over the place. Some are 99 cents and some are $15. But then there are the ones that are $4, 8, or really any amount between $1-15. The prices they devs come up with in this range seem to be arbitrary. There should be a tier system based on criteria.

    The Ouya has plenty of problems. I'm "pro-Ouya" based on all that it gets right, but again, that doesn't mean I'm an Ouya fanboy or that I judge the Retron5 or anything else unfairly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    For one you have a rubiks cube box, a catch all device which has a controller with it too but is known for lag. The emulators on the Ouya also introduce some input and sync lag inherent with Android, but also with the multi-OS ported FREE emulators that have been around for years in some form or another (some as far back as the 1990s with SNES9Xex.
    Hold up. The Ouya controller's lag issues have been solved for quite some time now for the OS and most games. Some games still have lag with the controller, but that's the fault of the developer not patching their games. Ouya fixed this and I believe it is unfair to be critical of a problem that no longer exists no matter what platform it is. Lag/snyc inherent with Android... yes and no. That depends on what it is you're emulating. NES/SNES/PCE/Genesis/GB/Neo-Geo etc? No. No lag, no issues. These formats work 100% beautifully on Ouya. N64, PS1, Dreamcast? Yeah, those have issues. You cannot generalize the performance of every emulator on Ouya as the same, as that just isn't true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    You love the thing, you've gushed over it heaps and all how it's open to do this and that. To date, you've had little to nothing nice to say about the R5, it has been all feeding off others comments and being infuriated over Amazon and their delays. You seem stuck on the fact it's an US company that shipped to the US first and NEVER promised it day one in Canada, Amazon blew that one, but hey why point at them right?
    My full review of the Retron5 will be out at the end of the month. I haven't said much on it for the sake of spoilers and to give my audience something to look forward to. Rest assured....it will be positive, save for what's wrong with it and yes, the unreasonably long delay will definitely get a mention. And actually, I was promised the thing would ship when Hyperkin said so, which was supposedly June 6. Of course I'm angry at Amazon, but I was repeatedly told that they didn't have the product to ship to me. It was Hyperkin who hadn't provided them with the inventory. Hyperkin who caused the delays. This was something I looked into, and contacted both Amazon and Hyperkin about.




    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    This R5 you keep lying and lying about saying it is 'bare bones' ...hardly. It's pitched as a console. The Ouya is pitched as a multimedia box that in turn also plays games. They're not the same.
    I was referring to the features of the emulators of the Ouya, such as the .emu series vs the Retron5, not the Retron5 itself vs the Ouya. We all know the Ouya is more powerful and does a lot more. That's obvious, and for this comparison, also irreverent.

    The Retron5's emulation features are bare bones. No turbo button assignments. You can't map emulation functions to a single key using whatever controller you want. The screen options are far more limited on the Retron5 than they are on the Ouya. Screenshots were until I complained saved as JPEGs. Scanline intensity cannot be toggled. You cannot adjust the GUI. These are of course things that Hyperkin can fix with updates, but my initial reaction to these basic emulator features being absent gave me déjà vu to 2006 when I first bought a Wii and downloaded Sonic the Hedgehog 1 for $8 on Virtual Console and discovered the emulator...has no options to adjust ANYTHING. No savestates. No controller options. No screenshots. No Video options. NOTHING. Of course the Retron5 emulators aren't nearly as bad, but that's the feeling I got when I went from the Ouya to the Retron5.

    Now, with the IPS patching, the Retron5 has a feature the OUya's emulators don't, and the Ouya has to play catch up. But everything else that the Retron5 emulators do the Ouya emulators also do from the aforementioned audio/video filters, save/load states, screenshots, file manager for saves and savestates, etc. Hyperkin needs to play catch up to add in some of the basic features the Ouya's emulators have, but once they do that difference will be nullified and that will go a long way to improve the Retron5.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    This system is still in development on the software side and they're adding a ton of unintended features as it is already people have requested. Don't let your head get larger, but I'm sure your want of a turbo button(auto fire) and single button short cuts will happen and sooner than later, they're easy to add, just not essential compared to compatibility and stability issues. I'd think you'd care about stability, Ouya's emulators don't have it, they drop frames due to weaker hardware and fall out of sync too, and the input lag is noticeable on that one too. I did my research when I didn't buy the Ouya.

    Again I agree, stability and compatibility are paramount things Hyperkin needs to fix on the Retron5. I'm simply surprised core emulation features like turbo fire and emulation shortcut button mappings weren't in place from the get-go. None of these features were added to emulators on other platforms. It seems strange they would need to be for the Retron5. But as to what you said about the Ouya's emulators dropping frames and having sync issues, you're either going off info that is out of date or talking about the emulation of PS1/N64/Dreamcast, which is true. Emulation of those systems on the Ouya is garbage. But when it comes to the emulation performance of the formats the Retron5 can run on both the Retron5 and the Ouya, they both run pretty damn similar, to the point where I've noticed the same emulation issues at the same points on both and many additional emulation issues on the Retron5 that the Ouya does not have.


    The Retron5 is not a bad system and in fact is getting better all the time. My aim is to be objective. There's some things I really like about the Retron5 that Hyperkin got right and thee are things that I really like about the Ouya that they got right. The Retron5 is a lot newer so of course it'll have more kinks to work out. All I want to do is make the shortcomings of the Retron5 known so that they can be fixed and the missing features added in.

    There's no reason the Retron5 can't have turbo fire mappings or let me simply return to the menu by pressing the L button on an SNES controller when playing NES/Famicom/GB/GBC/3 button Genesis games.
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    I don't want to quote a quote and break the board with a novel.

    #1 I'm aware of what Ouya was, did, and is now, it's filthy considering their promises to the kickstarter days. NO need to quote why either, you banked it entirely with that post. My beef was also hosing over existing owners, they went through 3 iterations of the controller due to sticky buttons and input lag which they fixed the first and not all of the second but minimized it a lot, yet not enough for emulated stuff, just Ouya coded things...mostly.

    #2 I think that's up to debate if the controller was entirely fixed, at least on the stock unit. I know they did another version on their order online only 16GB unit that was white, it is lag free I do recall that, but the real fix plus the added space is an added cost which isn't right. I hate to say it but you're wrong there, there is input lag/sync/frameskipping issues on the emulators with Ouya. They on the surface to work 100% nice on Ouya, but if you're sensitive to the problem, it's not, and it's not TV based but system due to the android os itself. It's not the emulator fault, it's the OS that's hindering it.

    #3 Well I look forward whatever is in there to see it, you usually are objective. The delay, let's get this clear, were you told this by Hyperkin, or was this something Amazon said Hyperkin supposedly told them? Amazon isn't always told stuff, when they don't get into, they dig, and easily the .ca version of the us .com site likely just aped the date to fill it in. If Hyperkin specifically told you this, then yeah they deserve a hot steaming turd flung at them for that screw up. I know Hyperkin did not supply the Canadian version with supply until weeks ago, but is this Hyperkin's fault ultimately or really Amazon? Hyperkin either gave the .ca site a will ship date, or Amazon made one up using the US site and that puts them at fault for using(making up) bad info. I'd love a real answer to that.

    #4 Barebones is perspective, and I do not agree with your sentiment given all the options there are within the menus as it stands on Beta 2.0b5, in the file system, the patching, and even the core stuff since 1.0 even. What you're asking for is fluff, and you know very well it will be added, and could very well be added by the time that video/text bit is done...and if it is, would you be one of very very few reviewers willing to revise the comments? I'm very familiar having a dozen or two VC games on the Wii how barebones it was, and R5 to that is night and day. The Wii VC was hot save when paused, maybe some button meddling on a very minor scale if you were lucky, and that's it. I'm not really sure the R5 needs to catch up to Ouya, you keep saying that, but those .emu emulators are Android wide, I've got the NES one on my tablet and snes9xex on there too. I'm clear on what they can and can't do, and the R5 for playing the actual games correctly trumps them and in turn the Ouya experience.

    #5 Core emulation features I think you have a weird description of. Adding in added fluff like single button mapping and turbo buttons is not core and never will be in any sane persons mind. Those are extras, straight up. Core features, ie CORE emulation features are what make the emulator tick to make the game run as accurately if not dead accurately like if it were on real hardware. The R5 takes down the .emu (Android, Ouya, etc) packages on that one. It doesn't have as much fluff extras as of yet, but as you can see stuff is being added quickly, such as your .PNG file picture saving request. My info again isn't out of date. You can look the specs up, I have a Nexus 7 2013 32GB version tablet, I don't run crap in the background, and I can say that more intensive stuff for the old games, snes in particular on special chip titles, do not run as well dropping frames or skipping if I allow it to be entirely smooth and that causes input/visual lag problems. Using the R5 which only is Android in menu, emulator using the hardware when in game mode, they don't.

    Keep an eye out I think your requests on the mapping and turbo is on the short list and has been for a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi_Matrix View Post
    There's no reason the Retron5 can't have turbo fire mappings or let me simply return to the menu by pressing the L button on an SNES controller when playing NES/Famicom/GB/GBC/3 button Genesis games.
    I can see the objection with this and although by far I am no programmer I would assume this would be a trivial feature to implement. It wasn't too long ago that you couldn't map the mode or select buttons to anything and that issue was addressed. Hopefully both of the things you mention are done soon.

    Speaking of controller compatibility, has anyone personally had anything that wouldn't work correctly or read reports from anywhere else about things that didn't work? I ask because I have an Arcadian stick that is recognized by the unit and games as 6-button but X, Y, & Z won't actually do anything in-game. I was going to try some of my other sticks and some of Tototek's adapters tonight to see about using PS sticks on the unit.

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    We have released the RetroN 5 v2.0 BETA 6 firmware build. Please note that this release is BETA and not STABLE; those of you who do not want to risk running into bugs should stick with the stable releases only. Changes since v2.0 BETA 5 include:
    - Added ability to assign "turbo" button mappings
    - Split in-game hotkey configuration so that each combination of "system playing" / "controller used" has its own separate mapping
    - Removed requirement of at least two buttons for hotkey combinations
    - Fixed a problem preventing Genesis cheats from functioning while having fast cartridge loading enabled

    Wow, they really are reading the thread, aren't they

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    Good on Hyperkin. Seriously, good work lads.

    This weekend is when I'm going to record my review of the thing, and what was going to be a rant on missing basic features that the Ouya and other devices have will now simply be "these basic features are missing initially, but were added in the latest firmware".


    Another issue I want Hyperkin to address:

    When playing a game, if you open the emulation settings menu called the "In -Game Menu" with options such as saving/loading states and such and then choose to Return to the Main Menu in order to adjust any other settings, when you return to play, it reboots the game. There is no reason for this. It should simply resume where you where entered the "In-Game Menu", or at the very least ask the player if they want to "Return to Game or Reset" with Return to Game being the default, preselected option.
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    Anything happened yet in regard to having multiple cartridges inserted?

    Seemed like some were optimistic that a boot option would eventually be included so that if you were for instance in the middle of playing through Zelda II for the NES and wanted to take a spin in Super Mario Kart for some multiplayer action, you could keep Zelda II inserted and just select to run what was inserted into the SuperNes slot.

    Haven't noticed anything in the change logs for that yet.

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    Az and Satoshi: Yes adding those features is trivial, the tech stated as much to me before. That stuff has been on a bucket to do list and was for this set of betas so now it's there. I saw you were really humble taking credit there on the hyperkin facebook too Satoshi. I kind of fail to see a reason to even notate it was out when it is in now unless you already wrote the piece.

    Your other complaint, re-enable "auto load last save" and your entire gripe is gone. It is supposed to be on by default, so you must have disabled that. There is no reason to not have a reason for it being missing as it's there and it has been turned off. Think of it this was with you currently having it off. The pop up box ''menu" is a set of basic features you can use with the game loaded, as if it were a real hardware console like a stock SNES with like a Pro Action Replay or Naki device in it. The grander 'main menu' that is like turning off the power and removing the cartridge. There's a difference there.


    Leo I think that was addressed before that the system itself was designed, maybe not the best, but where it powers to all the cart slots, so having 2 games in causes it to read 2 games at the same time causing a conflict. I think the older retron you left whatever in, but had to flip a switch on the hardware for the unit to power one slot over the others.

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    We have speculated that it's a hardware limitation, but we don't actually know that it's not something that can't be resolved with a firmware patch. If you wouldn't mind, how about asking your contact there about it?

    Would be nice to get a definitive answer one way or another. If it can be addressed via a software change, I hope they tackle it.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 09-18-2014 at 11:30 AM.

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    It should be possible to manually tell it which cartridge port to dump the rom from rather than do it automatically, but that's hardly an issue. You don't need to have multiple carts inserted at once. There's no reason for that. It's like one of those CD players that you could put five CDs in at once and swap between them or a toaster that has eight slots for bread. Just because they have additional ports doesn't mean there is any advantage in using them. Afterall, you can only play one a game a time anyway, so what's the point in having five carts inserted at once? I see this as a very non-issue.
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    That it isn't a necessary feature doesn't make it a pointless feature. It wasn't necessary for their system to be able to read and write saves back to the original cartridges, but it's there. Just as we wouldn't argue for the removal of that, I don't see why we should argue against an added feature for convenience if it's reasonably simple to accomplish.

    Surely you must be able to see why it would be convenient to not have to get up and remove a cartridge just to play another cartridge inserted in a different cartridge port? I don't see the confusion over the demand for such a feature or the reason why it should be this way that I'd have to remove a lengthy single player adventure like a JRPG inserted in the SuperNES slot that I'm in the middle of, just because I wanted to play a NES arcade conversion like Mario Bros. for a few minutes that's inserted in a completely different cartridge port.

    Unless their hardware design dictates that it has to work this way, I'd like to see it changed. Even if you don't desire the bit of extra convenience it offers, it also would reduce wear & tear on something that isn't built to the highest standards of quality by removing the need to needlessly insert and remove cartridges from this thing.

    And I assume it would remove a bit of consumer confusion as well. I'm not sure what this spits out for an error when more than one cartridge is inserted, but I'm sure a good percentage of their customers have encountered this issue and didn't realize initially just what was happening.
    Last edited by Leo_A; 01-20-2015 at 07:26 PM.

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    Yeah good luck with those fools and their 'appears to be the same' claims. I'm curious to see if they get ignored or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they used some of their work as a basis for their own, but going by the time I've talked with the guy over the last couple months he doesn't sound like a code thief to me that had no idea what he's doing other than jacking code and taking credit for it.

    What you have here most likely is a derivative piece of work, kind of like where you can go so far making a copy of a popular item, but not so closely it's stealing. Or better yet, the classic Nintendo vs Tengen lawsuit where Tengen smoked them for breaking their 10NES chip open and making a work around chip to defeat it to sell games. They reverse engineered the code and made their own, which is what this thing is doing from what I've gathered.
    Last edited by Tanooki; 09-18-2014 at 03:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanooki View Post
    Yeah good luck with those fools and their 'appears to be the same' claims. I'm curious to see if they get ignored or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they used some of their work as a basis for their own, but going by the time I've talked with the guy over the last couple months he doesn't sound like a code thief to me that had no idea what he's doing other than jacking code and taking credit for it.

    What you have here most likely is a derivative piece of work, kind of like where you can go so far making a copy of a popular item, but not so closely it's stealing. Or better yet, the classic Nintendo vs Tengen lawsuit where Tengen smoked them for breaking their 10NES chip open and making a work around chip to defeat it to sell games. They reverse engineered the code and made their own, which is what this thing is doing from what I've gathered.
    Um, you don't understand. Even if it is a derivative work, they can't legally use the source code for anything because:

    A - The source code license requires anyone who makes a modified / derivative version to release its modified source code, and
    B - The emulators and their source code are not licensed for commercial use.

    Hyperkin should not have done this, PERIOD. Don't try to defend them. They should have known better than to do this.
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