Your experience with the Retron 5??

[Tanooki]

It might also be that it is the TV. Are HDTVs in this regard different than CRTs? Are older games played best on CRTs? I have no clue, just spculations. I should have played the original console on the HDTV as well.

Why most Genesis games don't look so blocky like the SNES games, I really don't know. When I use the filter 'Scale2x' it looks good. For all the other games a filter is not necessary, they look just fantastic!

Oh, one exception: Donkey Kong Country! I don't know why, but the first DKC (didn't plug in the other two) don't look good; might be the different rendered technology the Rare brothers developed?

To your first question - Are HDTVs different than CRTs in this regard? YES. The CRT displays what the system spits out natural 1:1, it won't lag. Any HDTV will have some form of processing time, if not from stupid built in filters, but from the fact it needs to take that 240p signal and upscale it to a level the TV can output. Each compamy, each model(which vary internally aside from panel size) can process the data differently and as it does this, it adds input lag because the more it needs to chew on it to spit it out so it can be displayed allows the game to run out of sync X amount of milliseconds which for timing pissy old CRT games can be a problem. displaylag.com will explain ti better and show TVs where they're low enough (30ms and below) where you won't feel it. Mine I researched, it's at 25ms, and I can handle those, Punchout, shooters like Gradius, etc just fine. That's why I said what I did and how I said it, IF you played the 10-15 on the same TV (which you didn't, you used a CRT.) Plug that old console into the HDTV through the RCA jack, watch it lag out too as you described it. Go into your TV, see if the HDTV has a GAME MODE or if you can manually disable every bit of processing (filters, etc) it does to iron out visuals for movie watching and the sort and it should improve. My current TV you can disable every single filter which is why it can get by just through GAME MODE, but my older one I had to manually disable all the stuff on the Panasonic Viera I had (current is a Vizio) and it was fine.

I think the Genesis games look less blocky because they don't display graphics the same way Nintendo does theirs, and they also lack the color and added filters the SNES has which I think would play a factor into them looking less chunky.

DKC (and other ACM graphics games DKC2+3, Killer Instinct) would all look like crap. They're using a higher color table than most SNES games and using display tricks to get the color quality and smoothness up to where Nintendo could back in the mid 90s gloat they could keep up with 32bit systems visually. By using the 2xsai filter or whichever you are would take those very finely tuned and blended colors and visuals and just muddy them up badly. It's kind of like when someone used AA overkill on a N64 game ported from PSX and it would look splotchy or muddy and get dinged in online reviews over it.


Try something out for yourself and the others here since the thread is active. Take your NES, pop it into your HDTV, play Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden again, see if you have problems.

[Tanooki]

That was probably the biggest issue I have with gameplay on the console, all SNES games look too blocky. Like you I'm perfectly fine playing all the other systems without any filters and I actually prefer a sharp, well defined pixel image, but their SNES output...yeesh. It's not TV size either because I've got mine hooked up to a cheap 22" 16:9 HDTV and the results are the same. A game like Mortal Kombat II with digitized images looks shockingly awful. Due to the way the SNES image is displayed I always use a filter, and none of the available ones are quite to the level I prefer. It seems like even the "weakest" filter is too much, and why anyone would even play with the stronger ones is beyond me.

I started getting into high score attacks a few carts like pinball and classic arcade era ports so I've been enjoying the automatic save states immensely here lately. It's great to be able to save high scores in Crue Ball and Jaki Crush with no effort.

Genesis and SNES (in my other post) just don't output visuals similarly at all. The SNES just fails to put out what you're looking for since it has more colors and more complexity into how it spits out an image than the more basic Genesis. Also ever notice the fine image of the Genesis in some games you'll see those vertical lines through everything almost like a vertical scanline, maybe that has a hand in it too.

And while I don't do high score attacks, I do love that auto-save feature when you bail to the menu. It's the #1 reason I got the thing because I have a little girl and she makes it hard to just play stuff. I find I can accomplish things again because I can dabble for 5min here 30min there and if someone walks in, I just menu, then power off -- and I'm right back on the high score, the stage, the world, whatever I'm in some game. I got 3 worlds into Mr Gimmick on the weekend, no battery, but on R5 it's like I have one.

[calgon]

With regard to lag on the R5,

I ran a test using a modded wii running mega man using a gamecube controller and did not notice any discernible lag. That's not to say there wasn't any, however after playing the game for years I would say it has to be under a millisecond or two.

I then used my R5 with a NES controller and noticed more prominent lag. Finally I hooked up an original NES and while the screen blurred a bit when scrolling, i did not detect any lag. That was enough to get rid of the r5 for me. Also wasn't a fan of waiting for the rom to load.

[Gameguy]

To your first question - Are HDTVs different than CRTs in this regard? YES. The CRT displays what the system spits out natural 1:1, it won't lag. Any HDTV will have some form of processing time, if not from stupid built in filters, but from the fact it needs to take that 240p signal and upscale it to a level the TV can output.

I thought the R5 output video in high definition over HDMI, if it just outputs a standard 240p signal that needs to be upscaled then I don't see much advantage to using an emulation box. If it's outputting a high definition signal like I think it is then the lag is caused by something else besides the TV.

[Leo_A]

Retron 5 upscales to 720p, as I recall.

It certainly takes time to process and by definition, can't technically be lag free. While one user reports zero lag, the Retron 5 could still be introducing just enough where suddenly it's noticeable to another user on a different television when it's combined with a slightly inferior HDTV scaling chip than the other guy has or if they just have a different sensitivity level to the issue.

He presumably doesn't notice input lag on with modern consoles outputting an image matching the set's native resolution, but his set could take slightly more time than the other person's does to process non-conforming pictures like if it's a 1080p set that can't display 720p as-is. That tv difference combined with the Retron 5's built-in post-processing delay could easily create noticeable input lag for one person on their "lag-free" tv while feeling perfectly fine for another on their tv that they also feel is free of input lag.

[Sailorneorune]

I liked my Retron 5 (Alcahest! Sailor Moon: Another Story! Both in English with actual carts! ) ...until the Famicom port went out. It's on its way back to Hyperkin, and I'm hoping they'll honor the warranty even though I didn't directly (we need a "directly" smiley because Mr. Iwata's friends still do it!) get it from them.

Stay tuned...

[Tanooki]

If you have a receipt with a date, and it's under the 1yr warranty, they'll honor it or at least should. I didn't buy mine from them when the gray one started getting pissy about NES carts. Ended up with a rocky road to replacement, but ended up with a model 2 black one that has been right ever since.

[PizzaKat]

Hi guys. Can anyone tell me if they have experienced the R5 wiping out save files? I read this somewhere before and was wondering if anyone has experienced any issues. Also have you had to clean your old games really good r else it wouldn't work more smoothly? Thanks

[otaku]

i keep seeing these at the local indie game store and thinking about it as it would be super convenient but it sounds like an expensive hassle

[calgon]

i keep seeing these at the local indie game store and thinking about it as it would be super convenient but it sounds like an expensive hassle

If you want a more accurate experience I'd go super retro trio. It's cheaper, the games load instantly and you can use the original controllers. Also plays everdrives.

[eskobar]

The problem with SNES is the Scaling ... in a CRT monitor, the electron guns leave spaces and display the image in 4:3 ratio and it looks incredible, CRT monitors don't have fixed resolution and can display a variety of resolutions natively. In LCD TVs, that have fixed resolution you only have 1 native resolution and all images are scaled.

The SNES resolution is quite low, 256 x 224, so the images were always blocky but the CRT technology made it look flawless, but the sprites of the characters and enemy always looked chubby because of this. When you scale the image it depends on the method you use to scale pixels. You can use better hardware, like Framemeister and many other upscalers/scan converters.

[lendelin]

After having hours of fun with Super Mario 3D World lately I inserted my beloved Castlevania IV for the Super NES into the Retron 5.

I got a bit mad. I had difficulties to get the jumps right on the switching platforms, and even the last fight with Dracula, certainly not a big challenge, went wrong. I played the cartridge on my CRT with my old Super NES, and voila -- no problems.

Playing the Retron 5 is a little bit like real life. When I jump, I feel slightly overweight and too old.

Now I have 8 months of experience with the Retron 5, and for difficult action platformers like Ninja Gaiden, Battletoads and the Castlevanias there is just some input lag. Also for the Mega Mans (NES and Super NES). I have the TV on game mode (which helps a bit), but the feeling is just not right, it feels just a tad sluggish, but as you all know for these kind of games it is a big difference. I even had problems with the disappearing platforms in Startropics.

I don't know if it is the Retron 5 itself or HDTVs, more accurately: MY HDTV. (50" Samsung) But I don't care. It doesn't make a difference because the Retron 5 with its HDMI output in 720p is made for HDTVs.

Nevertheless, I would buy it again. But a replacement console it is not. I play more on my old systems and the old TV than I play the Retron 5. However, for RPGs and other non-action games the Retron 5 is a fantastic system!

[Tanooki]

Blame the TV entirely. I've got the same game and it isn't an issue for me. If your TV has a display lag rating basically over 30ms you'll feel the lag when you try and stick platforms as you said in that game. I had the same problems years earlier thinking I had a broken copy of Mario Allstars Wii on a TV I once owned as the Wii was on the main TV in the place which has a poorer display lag rating. I started flipping out thinking I was losing it because I couldn't even jump on a goomba with a running hop in World 2 of SMB3 on there. I then tried the same (on cart original) game on the other TV which has my classic systems on it so I concluded the game broke and sold it. A few years later, Wii now on the good TV, it ran fine, realized it was the stupid TV and not the game so I kept that one until I sold my Wii setup off pissed at NIntendo over it and the WiiU selling both.

Funny you note it, but I've got a 46" Samsung which was the bad TV for it, a new(then) LED TV set, I got due to a work bonus. I took it back to my years older Panasonic Viera I had at the time, and its display lag was so low it was like a CRT. I recall seeing many (pretty much all in the larger sizes) Samsung TVs having some of the shittiest display lag problems even their game mode didn't clean up well. I'm actually using my deceased grandma's 32" Samsung now, found on displaylag.com it has a 1 or 2ms less rating than my solid 29" Vizio I had been using (so I stored it as a backup.) When the Viera got cracked (kid) I freaked, researched, found that Vizio (2-3 years ago now) and best buy had it local so I tested the waters and it worked.

That's the problem with any of these flat panel HDTV sets. They have no set standard between makers let alone between the internal guts from the same makers parts. Depending how the processor in there wants to handle upsampling a lower resolution 240p(CRT) signal or game made for that even converted on a device Wii Mario Allstars/Retron 5, you end up having visual lag problems seeing one thing while the game is a few frames ahead and you're screwed.

[lendelin]

Blame the TV entirely. I've got the same game and it isn't an issue for me. If your TV has a display lag rating basically over 30ms you'll feel the lag when you try and stick platforms as you said in that game. I had the same problems years earlier thinking I had a broken copy of Mario Allstars Wii on a TV I once owned as the Wii was on the main TV in the place which has a poorer display lag rating. I started flipping out thinking I was losing it because I couldn't even jump on a goomba with a running hop in World 2 of SMB3 on there. I then tried the same (on cart original) game on the other TV which has my classic systems on it so I concluded the game broke and sold it. A few years later, Wii now on the good TV, it ran fine, realized it was the stupid TV and not the game so I kept that one until I sold my Wii setup off pissed at NIntendo over it and the WiiU selling both.

Funny you note it, but I've got a 46" Samsung which was the bad TV for it, a new(then) LED TV set, I got due to a work bonus. I took it back to my years older Panasonic Viera I had at the time, and its display lag was so low it was like a CRT. I recall seeing many (pretty much all in the larger sizes) Samsung TVs having some of the shittiest display lag problems even their game mode didn't clean up well. I'm actually using my deceased grandma's 32" Samsung now, found on displaylag.com it has a 1 or 2ms less rating than my solid 29" Vizio I had been using (so I stored it as a backup.) When the Viera got cracked (kid) I freaked, researched, found that Vizio (2-3 years ago now) and best buy had it local so I tested the waters and it worked.

That's the problem with any of these flat panel HDTV sets. They have no set standard between makers let alone between the internal guts from the same makers parts. Depending how the processor in there wants to handle upsampling a lower resolution 240p(CRT) signal or game made for that even converted on a device Wii Mario Allstars/Retron 5, you end up having visual lag problems seeing one thing while the game is a few frames ahead and you're screwed.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with TVs and the Retron 5. I should have paid more attention to the input lag when I bought the new TV.

Will I have the same probs when it comes to the NES Classic Edition and the new AVS by Retro USB, the latter being not an emulator but produces the NES games in 720p with HDMI? ( I intend to buy both)

[Tanooki]

Yeah you almost positively will.

I'll widen it so it makes sense. That same huge Samsung I have, I also before I caught on to the shenanigans had a PS2, a N64, NES, and SNES along with a Wii attached to it and a PS3 as well at some time or another.

If the games were made around the earliest time of the LCD tv and beyond, they tend to respond a bit better but even then you have issues. Those Guitar Hero titles have their own lag gauge in there where you can calibrate it with a few steps to counteract it, the PS2 and Wii both had it, before doing it the games were not playable, after they were. When I was for a time trying out NES games from again Mario, or stuff like Kirby, PUnchout, etc...it wouldn't time right. The same problem happened with their SNES counterparts (and Wii counterpart with Allstars or VC downloads.) In every case it was a disaster as I tested various things after I figured out the crap that got pulled, although too late before I was pissed off and sold my original Wii Allstars package. A good year after playing with other stuff between it and my dead panasonic anything that gave me crap with timing on the big one didn't on the smaller so I moved ALL my systems short of the PS3 off the big screen and I wasn't having a presumed case of forgotten skill and stupid fingers.

The newest TV I ended up with that Vizio was solid, tested it, but even yet overly hyper sensitive stuff like Mike Tyson, Gradius 3/4 on PS2, Gitaroo Man and the sort still ran like shit, but if I threw up Game Mode which further shut down processing of the image the menu can't achieve manually -- they all got playable again, CRT playable no less. I just left my TV on Game Mode ever since, I really don't give a crap about processing as my PS4 can filter the blu rays excellently on their own not needing gimpy TV help. I've done this on the 1ms speedier TV I inherited from my Grandma fairly recently, a Samsung of all things around 4" larger. So It kind of helped really build a case against shitty internal processing on LCD/LED TVs. I just lucked out a decade ago or so when I got that old Panasonic at Circuit City as the ms rating on it was damn near LCD(PC) quality with its filters disabled.

As far as emulators go, my old consoles are just as they are and the signal was processed up to what the LED could handle, so that doesn't apply. I'd think the added work an emulator needs could add added lag perhaps, but if both have the stench of issues I doubt your emulated Classic NES vs the thing bunnyboy made will fare any better.

[BlastProcessing402]

One thing surprised me. I have a couple of German games, and they did not play so well. The input lag was there (not really bad but noticeable), and overall it was slower. I put the TV on Game Mode, and made changes to the settings (forced 50Hz, changed the region from automatic to Europe), but to no avail. I tried this with the first Castlevania and the first Mega Man. Faxanadu, however, showed no difference between the German and American Version.

This is important to me because I intend to buy the three Parodius games which came never out in the US. (I found it terrible since I first read in a game magazine in the 90s about the Parodius games) Did someone of you had similar experinces with Japanese games?

I know this is an older post, but I just want to assure you that jap region games should be fine. US SNES hardware is internally no different than a Super Famicom, only the cases are different. Eur hardware is a bit different, which is probably why your ger games weren't behaving right.

[Az]

Last night I ended up with a small bit of plastic rattling around inside the cart connector of my Retron5. After chasing it around with a pair of tweezers I ended up having to unhook all the cords and flip it upside down to get it out. When I did that I noticed a puddle of brown liquid dripping out of the side. On closer inspection the battery of the wireless controller (which sat in the rear cradle) apparently caught a case of diarrhea. There was brown battery acid all over the bottom of the controller due to the battery acid leaking out and collecting in the bottom trough of the cradle, which also spilled down into the console itself due to the air vent slots being located in the battery cradle.

I took the console apart and luckily there was minimal damage to the PCB's. Rather than sit flush with the bottom their elevated a few centimeters by sitting on plastic mounts, so the only part that actually came in contact with the liquid was the ribbon cable connecting to the P1 controller ports. It had managed to drip directly onto the ribbon cable connector. I thought I had it all cleaned out, but when I fired it back up the P1 SNES port was dead and the P2 Genesis port was going apeshit. (Now it makes sense why the SNES port was acting a bit flaky last week).

Took it back apart again and cleaned the gunk off the cable and PCB the best I could and it seems to work fine for now. I took the controller apart to clean it and remove the battery, but the battery is glued to a plastic pad with glue used on NASA space flights so I couldn't get it loose. Ended up tossing the disassembled controller in a ziplock bag and into the closet.

This might have totally been a freak accident but I'd definitely advise you NOT to keep the controller in the cradle just in case it wasn't.

[Az]

Quick follow up to this; the system is now a doorstop thanks to the battery acid. What little bit fell onto the main PCB managed to make it so neither of the two controller PCB's are recognized. System still boots but you can't start it due to no controller input. Can't use the wireless controller even when powering via the USB cable since the controller is ruined also.

Thought about ordering a replacement but head exploded when looking at prices. Did Hyperkin quit making these?

[Hwj_Chim]

Quick follow up to this; the system is now a doorstop thanks to the battery acid. What little bit fell onto the main PCB managed to make it so neither of the two controller PCB's are recognized. System still boots but you can't start it due to no controller input. Can't use the wireless controller even when powering via the USB cable since the controller is ruined also.

Thought about ordering a replacement but head exploded when looking at prices. Did Hyperkin quit making these?

Look into a retro freak as a replacement if you can't find a retron 5 at a decent price.


http://youtu.be/58Jp4d3Uqck
I don't know how to embed the video on my phone. But it is gamester81 review on the retro freak

[Tanooki]

retrofreak is famicom only going to see a NES adapter if you care about that. Also have to pay more cash to be able to plug normal controllers in as well.

As I said I might sell my mostly unused r5 but Id like to know what it would be worth to think about it.