Are the Sachen carts "official" NES releases?

[Dr. Morbis]

theredeye said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, the word "fact" refers to something irrefutable, something objectively true beyond a shadow of a doubt. Show me where this has been proven, and I'll take these games out of the list myself

I can't prove that sachens weren't released here because you can't prove a negative! It's like saying "prove to me that there are no aliens". How do you do that? The only thing you can do is say "show me an alien". That's why, in this sachen debate, I feel the onus is on YOU (or whoever else is so adamant that they are 'US releases') to prove to us non-believers that they were in fact released here. I think some of the problem lies with the concept of what it means to be a US release. If something was available through some obscure catalog to the US market does that mean it is an official US release? Sure, an American could have searched out and bought Sachens in the early 90's, IF they knew what they were doing. Similarly, they could have searched out and bought PAL NES games or famicom games in the same way. That does not make them US releases.

The bottom line is this: the only evidence given so far that they are 'for' the US market are a couple of anecdotal stories about a few cartridges being found at flea/pawns in the US. If these 64 or 65 games were intended for the US market, how on earth would the company have survived on what probably amounts to selling a few dozen (or less) to American buyers? WHY WOULD THEY CONTINUE TO MAKE 65 CARTS??? There MUST have been an Asian or pirate NTSC market that these Carts were intended for PRIMARILY. A pirate asian market could have easily, and quite conveniently, been built using the technology of the American NES.

From the arguments that you pro-Sachen people have made so far, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that the US was their PRIMARY market for these 65 games.

Please prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. Show us the evidence, or remove them from the list of "US game releases" until you can.

Basil

[TheRedEye]

Color Dreams scavenged several titles along the way during the last few years of the NES, and some of these were from fledgeling companies located overseas. Just take a look at Mermaids of Atlantis. It's Bubble Bath Babes - plain and simple. They bought the rights to this puzzle game from the distributor, Panesian, and slightly reprogrammed it to eliminate the nudity. Panesian sold the rights to the game, to recoup some development and distribution costs, and I'd be willing to bet that Color Dreams didn't pay that much. However, they had a new game to add to their library, without the development costs and time.

First of all, Mermaids of Atlantis was published by American Video Entertainment, not Color Dreams. Second, they didn't purchase Bubble Bath Babes from Panesian, they purchased Soap Panic from Hacker International.

Any other "facts" you wish to spout?

[ArnoldRimmer83]

Arn, do you know if Gaiapolis is available as a ROM anywhere? My guess is that it is still part of the eagerly awaited Project: Sachen series.

The only Sachen games I have played so far are Magical Mathematics, Middle School English II, Olympic IQ, Poker III in I, Rocman X and Super Pang. I know there are a couple others I am missing...

It's not available yet I don't think. I still need to try the arcade version in Mame one of these days.

Hopefully Project: Sachen will continue in the future.

[orrimarrko]

Color Dreams scavenged several titles along the way during the last few years of the NES, and some of these were from fledgeling companies located overseas. Just take a look at Mermaids of Atlantis. It's Bubble Bath Babes - plain and simple. They bought the rights to this puzzle game from the distributor, Panesian, and slightly reprogrammed it to eliminate the nudity. Panesian sold the rights to the game, to recoup some development and distribution costs, and I'd be willing to bet that Color Dreams didn't pay that much. However, they had a new game to add to their library, without the development costs and time.

First of all, Mermaids of Atlantis was published by American Video Entertainment, not Color Dreams. Second, they didn't purchase Bubble Bath Babes from Panesian, they purchased Soap Panic from Hacker International.

Any other "facts" you wish to spout?

First of all, find it in there where I say "fact". You can't, because I don't. My reference to the Mermaids game was an example, and regardless of the actual company that re-released Bubble Bath Babes under a different title, it doesn't change the "fact" that it happened, and makes for a good example to use in the hypothesis.

And I couldn't remember the actual name of the company (Hacker) that made the game, so I used the distributor. Most people don't know that Panesian didn't make the games anyway.

I will "spout" this though. Nitpicking my example doesn't change the possibility that what I have said is true. Red Eye - we all know how biased you are towards the Sachen games. That's your prerogative.

However, there's no need to try and belittle me or my argument simply because I got a couple of names wrong. It was the point that mattered - and I'm pretty sure that you got it.

[GrandAmChandler]

Geez, this debate will never end! You just have to agree to disagree......


Or Fight it out..... :P

[Buyatari]

buyatari, to answer your question I thought I read earlier in the thread about where Cheetahmen II came from, I was the guy who found the original usenet post by a Sean Roche back in...I think 1996. I emailed him and at the time I was just out of college with absolutely no money. He wanted me to buy his whole inventory from him...this story kills me whenever I tell it
Anyways, I gave him a couple of names from people who I trusted at the time (Etler, Neil Gordon up in Canada) and the rest is history. Roche was nice enough to send me a couple Cheetahmen II carts AND a Sega Genesis Action 52 cart for FREE for hooking him up with the dealers. The actual box he sent the items in was a cardboard box with Action 52 stamped onto the sides. I could have had the whole lot for some obscenely low price....................idiot

OK so to set the story straight these games were NEVER released and the entire inventory was bought up by a collector (Etler?) and then sold.

They were placed on Etlers rarity list and are now considered US releases.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

But if 60+ titles which were never released (NOTE : I'm NOT saying I believe they weren't. I'm just saying IF they weren't solely to make this point) in the US and were bought up by various collectors and then sold here in the US they wouldn't count?


Why one and not the other? Well, The Cheetman II is only one game and the Sachens are many. The Cheetman II has a nice looking package and while the games suck it certainly looks nice in the box next to all the other NES games. But it was also listed on Etlers rarity list long ago and has been accepted as a US release for a long time.

We said it before the Sachens are ugly, hard to get, many in number and they just aren't worth playing.

Its like running up a hill if the hill that is too big. You give up and say you never wanted to run up that hill anyway. Logic is being over-rided.

Mind you this applies to anyone who counts Color Dreams, Cheetahman II and other unlicensed items BUT does not count Sachen. You can collect whatever you want and that's what makes collecting fun but do so honestly. Rather you should admit that the Sachen games are AS MUCH a US release as Cheetamen II but you would rather not buy them.

If it turns out that they were sold in the US (which I believe they were) then they may be EVEN MORE SO of a US release than Cheetahmen II. Ouch !!

You are not required to buy any NES game. However, if you claim you own EVERY game in a certain category then most collectors will assume you mean every game listed unless noted. "I own every US game besides the Sachens of course" or "I have every US released licensed NES game" would also be acceptable.

Now to recap and summarize my logical train of thought here.

1. The DP guide lists every item for every system into one of 5 or 6 categories. US game releases, Non US game releases, Prototypes, Rumormill, Hardware and Homebrews. This is done for easy finding of the item in question AND proper placement among collections. To change this for one system is to change this for all. NES is not the end all of game systems. It should apply to the same rules as all other systems before and after it within the same framework.

2. Following the general "guidelines" of what is considered a US release on other systems I would say its fair to assume that a US release of an NES game is .....Any program which runs on the US NES system, and no other unique system, without the aid of any device NOT INCLUDED with the program itself, which was produced with primary intent of use by the US public market during what is generally considered to be the "life cycle" of the NES 1985-1995.

3. Sachen games were produced prior to 1995. They were intended for the US market and I believe will even be proven to have been sold to US customers during the time the NES was considered "alive". They may have been unlicensed but traditionally unlicensed games have been included in the US releases of every other system covered in the DP guide. There isn't a single characteristic of Sachen games which you can point out which does not apply to some other game which IS considered a US release. So given the rules which all others abide by in #2 Sachen games should fall in the category of US releases in the DP guide.

But what do I know. I'm an Atari collector

Adam

[Buyatari]

"Did you sell a single 72 pin NES game to anyone in the United States during the time period of 1985-1995"

If they answer yes will that be enough proof for you?

Absolutely not. Just because one (or a couple) cartridges dribbled their way into the US, we are now going to count 64 (65?) games as "U.S. Game Releases"?!?!?!

FACT: the Sachen games are 72-pin NTSC NES games.
FACT: the Sachen games were NOT "released" in the US.

Either change the heading of the NES US games category (ie: replace the word 'released' with something else) or put the Sachens in their own seperate list. Take your pick. But to leave them in a list titled "U.S. game releases" is a fallacy.

Yes don't let the "FACTS" get in the way even if we do get the proof. Since when does a certain number have to be sold for a game to count? Games like Video Life and Air Raid for the Atari 2600 are believed to have sold less than 20 copies each yet they count as US releases.

While we are at it, are there any other games you don't feel like collecting which we should take off the list and put into a seperate category?

Adam

[slapdash]

You know, I've been following this thread little by little, and... I think some people need to clearly define where their issues are. If we're discussing whether Sachen games are "US releases", there are two parts here:

US or non-US?
and
released or not released?

Do these carts work in any other 72-pin machines? If not, then they're definitely US, right? First, they're NTSC, so that takes out Europe and a few other regions. Then, do these get around lockouts?

As to releases, that's the real question, but I tend to lean toward "yes, these are". But until we get some definitive proof, collectors can decide whether they collect "released for sure", "certainly and probably released", or "released or not released, I don't care" for themselves. The DP Guide isn't there to tell you what you have to collect, after all...

(and didn't someone say something to that effect on the first page? :-)

[Dr. Morbis]

I find it unbelievable that there is even an argument about sachen games. Sachens are similar to the SMS situation. There are many, many SMS games that were not released in the US, but work perfectly on a US SMS anyway. However, these games are NOT listed in the dp guide because they are not "US games releases".

The sachen case is just the same. They are an ASIAN company that made cartridges for an ASIAN market. The kicker is that these games work perfectly on a US NES. So they are listed with the US releases because of this! WTF?

I am not going to dispute the fact that they have sold games to Americans. I am also not going to dispute the fact that Cheetahmen II should not be on the list either (technically). What I do dispute is that Sachen is in the same boat as Color Dreams or AVE or any other unliscenced company. Color Dreams (as one example) was a NORTH AMERICAN company that made cartridges for a NORTH AMERICAN market. Sachen is an ASIAN company that made cartridges for an ASIAN market. Look at the list of Sachen games. These were made for Americans? Come on.

Sachen games SHOULD be in the guide (as should the European SMS releases but that is a different story). But they should NOT be listed with the US released games. Why not put them in a seperate list with a special note: ***while not released in the US, these games work perfectly on the NTSC NES and, as such, have been included for completeness***. This way, people who want to collect them have the list right there, while people who only want the games released in the US have the main list.

I'm dying for an explanation here as to why these things are in the list of US releases.

[TheRedEye]

First of all, orri, as anyone who has argued with me on these boards knows, my nitpicking and being an ass is just a tactic. It's nothing personal. I'm sure you know that, but I just want it clarified. You're still a-ok in my book, I'm just a prick.

Second of all, I just want to point out to buyatari that some of Sachen's packaging is rather attractive. I don't have any examples on me at the moment, but I'll try to do so soon. I'd argue that Sachen's releases circa 1993 are far better looking than anything Color Dreams did.

I'm going to skip right to the most recent reply. Dr. Morbis, we're still questioning what you consider a "release." Yes, they're an Asian company that made games for an Asian market. This was their primary business. They also expanded internationally, and at the absolute worst case scenario ATTEMPTED to sell their games to American retailers.

I've often theorized that Panesian was nothing more than a pseudonym for Hacker International, a Taiwanese company who worked closely with Sachen (we have ROM dumps of games co-credited to the two!). If such is the case, and it very well may be, the only differences between a Sachen game and a Panesian game's "legitimacy" is the number of units sold in the United States.

I will admit something that I now realize I haven't made perfectly clear: NOT ALL Sachen games were manufactured and sold prior to 1995. The multicarts, for instance, have no copyright date, and I suspect they were hand-made and labeled "American" the moment Video Game Connections ordered them.

This is 9 out of 65, however, and for me to separate these into a separate category seems kind of messy. Where would these GO? They're non-pirated, they're specifically manufactured for and sold to an American audience, and they're not "homebew" by any means. By default, I've placed them alongside everything else intended for American audiences.

By the by, if Sachen has indeed finally kicked the bucket, these handmade multicarts are the rarest NES games in existence...I'm pretty sure Mike and I only ordered a combined total of five of each, meaning there are only about ten of them out there!

Anywho. With a possible "timeframe" differentiation with the multicarts, there is absolutely nothing that can legitimately prove that Sachen games can not be included in the same list as Panesian games and Cheetahmen II.

In FACT, if we count Cheetahmen II, which was not "released" until well after the system's demise, than we have to count the multis as well.

Buyatari's right on, I really don't see how this can be proven otherwise. I'm the editor of the NES section of the Digital Press Collector's Guide, and I want to make sure these things are represented correctly, objectively, and to the best of my knowledge. If you can show me that Cheetahmen II and the three Panesian games can "count" as an American release and that the Sachen games can NOT, I'll separate them accordingly. I don't see how this is possible, however, and I really have no idea where I'd put these things if they're not American releases. "Prototypes and One-of-a-Kinds" for Cheetahmen II and "Non-US" for Panesian?

[adaml]

Quick comment: Prune Face (Orrimarko) stated that Color Dreams scavenged some titles to release in the States...would that not make these games "pirates" then, since they were pre-existing games rereleased by another company? Confusion ensues.

[TRM]

What Sachen titles have copyrights of 1989/1990? The reason I ask is as follows. When American Video Entertainment did their dealings with Sachen, Sachen had always sent them Famicom games to play/review and then AVE would decide what to buy the rights for/publish from there.

If Sachen was making 72 pin games at this point, why would they send American Video the 60 pin Famicom games? The guys at AVE probably didn't want to deal with designing a Famicom adapter (yes, they did make their own adapters...) but they had to since they didn't receive 72 pin versions of the Sachen games.

Also, I don't really classify the Paneasian titles as US releases, although many people do. I have different thoughts on Cheetahmen II though.

[TheRedEye]

Sachen didn't self-publish in the United States until 1992, at which time their AVE and Color Dreams-published games would have been re-releases, yes?

As for the years, use this list: http://sachen.theredeye.net/list.html . It's a bit outdated, but it does the trick.

So essentially, they began publishing their original Asian releases in 1988. It wasn't until 1992 that they decided to go international.

[orrimarrko]

Quick comment: Prune Face (Orrimarko) stated that Color Dreams scavenged some titles to release in the States...would that not make these games "pirates" then, since they were pre-existing games rereleased by another company? Confusion ensues.

Actually, no. Buying the rights to a game, and then changing it (ie: AVE changing some code to make Mermaids) is a contradiction to the definition of a pirated game.

I wasn't implying that Color Dreams would release other manufacturers games without their permission. That's what pirates are.

[orrimarrko]

The DP Guide isn't there to tell you what you have to collect, after all...

(and didn't someone say something to that effect on the first page? :-)

Yep, that was me...

[leonk]

Well,

here's my way out of this mess..

I live in Canada.. I've grew up in Canada, and I played the NES in Canada. Go prove that Cheetamen II, Sachen or Panesian games were ever sold in Canada.

As far as I'm concerned, they weren't.. so for me getting a complete NES canadian collection is nice and simple.

One more leg up for the canadians!

[orrimarrko]

The easiest solution for all of this - AND THIS GOES FOR NES, 2600, and every other system out there - is right under our nose.

Without making a "NEW" category, simply make two subcategories: Licensed and Unlicensed.

For example, under the US Releases, put a subheading of Licensed. Fairly easy to do. List them, and then another subheading - Unlicensed. List those, and voila.

Unless the lists in the guide are done through an inefficient method, they shouldbe easy to sort and filter. If so, adding these two subheadings will should make EVERYONE happy.

The Sachenists will be happy, because the games will be included with every other unlicensed title, and those who only care about the licensed games will have a list they can work off from.

Again, this would be quite easy to do, and can apply to everything from the 2600 on down.

Once again - just my opinion.

[1bigmig]

The easiest solution for all of this - AND THIS GOES FOR NES, 2600, and every other system out there - is right under our nose.

Without making a "NEW" category, simply make two subcategories: Licensed and Unlicensed.

For example, under the US Releases, put a subheading of Licensed. Fairly easy to do. List them, and then another subheading - Unlicensed. List those, and voila.

Unless the lists in the guide are done through an inefficient method, they shouldbe easy to sort and filter. If so, adding these two subheadings will should make EVERYONE happy.

The Sachenists will be happy, because the games will be included with every other unlicensed title, and those who only care about the licensed games will have a list they can work off from.

Again, this would be quite easy to do, and can apply to everything from the 2600 on down.

Once again - just my opinion.

Right, and / or along with:

: I don't believe that they should be removed from the list, just simply change the heading to imply that it's a comprehensive list of NTSC, Non-Japanese games that can be played on your US NES system.

I thought we had settled this earlier I was suprised to see the thread leap to life again.

[TheRedEye]

orri, that wouldn't solve everything. We still have people arguing that these games are not AMERICAN. There's been no debate as to whether or not they're licensed or unlicensed.

[1bigmig]

orri, that wouldn't solve everything. We still have people arguing that these games are not AMERICAN. There's been no debate as to whether or not they're licensed or unlicensed.

Changing the heading eliminates (see above post) the question of American or Communist. Then you dont even need licensed / unlicensed. But if they are accepted as American (no heading change), then grouping them with unlicensed carts classifies their standing with the rest of the carts.