Curious why MVS isnt in the DP guide but Vectrex is?

[ClubNinja]

But I'm not sure if any other arcade system besides the NEO can be played through its home console counterpart(with a Phantom 1 converter)? That's why i thought it would be more relavant than other arcade platforms.
~bill

Then there should be a supergun section of the guide?

I have been seriously considering the pitching of this kind of idea recently, even as its own complete book. The main problem I see is that it's going to be difficult to catalog and rank (rarity/value) every arcade PCB ever. So where is the line drawn? JAMMA only? That alienates all the old stuff. Interchangeables? That eliminates the concern in splitting PCB from its full cabinet as only the cartridges would be listed (like the MVS was done). Unfortunately, it also eliminates a whole mess of games that are worth noting, but dedicated PCB-only. See how this can get complicated?

I'd love to see a guide (or section) dedicated to all cartridge-based arcade systems (MVS, ST-V, etc), as those are my favorite things to collect personally. Unfortunately, there are all sorts of complexities and worthwhile games/items are bound to be left out. Also, these things are essentially a niche within a niche, which may not even warrant attention like that. To answer a previous question, the MVS made the guide because, of all the arcade systems, MVS games have become the most accessible and popular among average home gamers/collectors. Even people who aren't interested in arcade hardware may have some MVS games, along with a motherboard or Phantom adapter for their AES at home. Even if no other arcade platform is included, the MVS has become relevant enough among home gamers and collectors in recent years to deserve inclusion.

[Geddon_jt]

But I'm not sure if any other arcade system besides the NEO can be played through its home console counterpart(with a Phantom 1 converter)? That's why i thought it would be more relavant than other arcade platforms.
~bill

Then there should be a supergun section of the guide?

I have been seriously considering the pitching of this kind of idea recently, even as its own complete book. The main problem I see is that it's going to be difficult to catalog and rank (rarity/value) every arcade PCB ever. So where is the line drawn? JAMMA only? That alienates all the old stuff. Interchangeables? That eliminates the concern in splitting PCB from its full cabinet as only the cartridges would be listed (like the MVS was done). Unfortunately, it also eliminates a whole mess of games that are worth noting, but dedicated PCB-only. See how this can get complicated?

I'd love to see a guide (or section) dedicated to all cartridge-based arcade systems (MVS, ST-V, etc), as those are my favorite things to collect personally. Unfortunately, there are all sorts of complexities and worthwhile games/items are bound to be left out. Also, these things are essentially a niche within a niche, which may not even warrant attention like that. To answer a previous question, the MVS made the guide because, of all the arcade systems, MVS games have become the most accessible and popular among average home gamers/collectors. Even people who aren't interested in arcade hardware may have some MVS games, along with a motherboard or Phantom adapter for their AES at home. Even if no other arcade platform is included, the MVS has become relevant enough among home gamers and collectors in recent years to deserve inclusion.

You bring up some great points, so I might as well share my thoughts on this.

First, let me say that the MVS cart listings you provided for the guide are fantastic. I really think they are, in general, extremely accurate.

However, I must say, I wasn't so sure about MVS stuff being included in the guide for a number of reasons. (I've always been a longtime objector to the MVS price guide on ng.com, for the same reasons).

Basically, I don't feel like the recent (ie last couple of years) MVS "craze" justifies MVS carts being treated as collectible video games in the same sense that the AES, or other consumer consoles, are. Just because they are more in demand now than they used to be, or just because they happen to be compatible with the home Neo hardware, isn't enough to me. They are arcade PCBs to me, intended solely for arcade operators, and thus should not be lumped in with consumer consoles.

Furthermore I have always had a problem, generally, with people assigning "rarity" numbers to arcade games. Unlike everything else in the guide, MVS cartridges, when new, were never really available for public purchase. It is only in very recent years that collectors have found ways to buy brand new MVS carts without having to go through a special "hookup" from a distributor. Plus MVS cartridges were sold and marketed worldwide, often with no differences in packaging. Thus, I think it is *extremely* difficult to attempt to guage rarity, solely based on what we, as collectors, observe changing hands on online sites / ebay (arcade ops sitting on stockpiles of "worthless" old MVS carts are only beginning to catch on).

Things are similar in the secondhand market as well. How often has anyone seen an MVS cart at a flea market, thrift store, or mom and pop game shop? MVS carts, just like ALL arcade PCBs, are bought/traded/sold in entirely different avenues than consumer products.

Finally, pricing. Like I said above, arcade ops over the past few years have been catching on that old MVS games are actually worth something to someone else out there (guys like us). Generally, though, there is a great rule of thumb for arcade PCBs, MVS carts included. If the game is old enough that it no longer makes money when sitting in a machine it is basically worthless. Astronomical release price ---> certain time the game is profitable ---> worthless. Hopefully somewhere in the middle the arcade op can make his investment back. Obviously there is now a pretty sizable collectors market for these games, but MVS carts (with a few notable exceptions) still generally follow this principle.

Just my thoughts on these issues, for what it's worth.

[ClubNinja]

Lots of good stuff!

Let me start off by thanking you for the kind word on the MVS listings. I appreciate it.

Now, let me try to address what you're saying (which is totally valid stuff) from a different perspective. I'll try to be brief and to the point (unlike usual.)

MVS games, like all PCBs, were (for the most part) not available at the consumer level - I'll give you that. Neither were prototypes, competition cartridges, and others of that sort. Yet, we still include these in our guides. Last I knew, the Blockbuster Genesis cartridge was included, as were the full "Prototype/One-of-a-Kind" sections in the book. While I'm not arguing the validity of their inclusions, I do feel the MVS can fit into the same category without much of a stretch at all. Regarding the question "How often has anyone seen an MVS cart at a flea market, thrift store, or mom and pop game shop?", I can positively answer that I have found more arcade PCBs and parts for sale in such places than I've seen prototypes (for the record, I've found 1 prototype that way, as opposed to the numerous arcade items I've come across). The guide has never discriminated against "means of distribution and acquisition" in the past, so why now?

Now, if you asked the average gamer/collector of things/whoever back in 1984 if they felt the worthless Atari cartridges piled up in bargain bins would ever be identified as collectibles, I'm fairly sure they'd have told you "no way". 20 years later, they're the arguable centerpiece of our entire hobby. MVS cartridges are in more demand now in the same way that 2600 cartridges were in more demand in the mid-90s. Collecting evolves and the MVS (as well as PCBs in general) are part of the new wave. Why exclude them when we can adapt for them instead?

Finally, pricing. I turn to the previous example again. I'm sure that some of today's rarest of the rares once spent a few weeks at the bottom of a bargain bin. Old stock, worthless to the store, no one cares about that system anymore. A more recent example - a buddy of mine bought Panzer Dragoon Saga at Walmart for $4.91 back when they were clearing out those "old, worthless" Saturn games. The same can be said for this arcade stuff. MVS cartridges and PCBs are becoming collectible, which means that values are going to naturally be assigned. While these prices and values are coming from transactions in specialized online forums, eBay, etc, other vendors will eventually catch up. Chase the Chuckwagon used to be the dirty old dog food game that no one cared about. The collectors cared though, and between themselves would charge $100+, even though the average outside seller wanted 25 cents. Now, outsiders are getting smarter and prices are going up. Sometimes, warehouse stocks are found, and rares become less rare. It's the way collecting evolves. Relative to the Atari 2600, MVS collecting is still a toddler, but I believe it's following the steps that other, completely acceptable parts of the hobby have in the past.

None of this is to say that you're wrong - it's just how I see it and justify it.

[Geddon_jt]

Lots of good stuff!

MVS games, like all PCBs, were (for the most part) not available at the consumer level - I'll give you that. Neither were prototypes, competition cartridges, and others of that sort. Yet, we still include these in our guides. Last I knew, the Blockbuster Genesis cartridge was included, as were the full "Prototype/One-of-a-Kind" sections in the book. While I'm not arguing the validity of their inclusions, I do feel the MVS can fit into the same category without much of a stretch at all. Regarding the question "How often has anyone seen an MVS cart at a flea market, thrift store, or mom and pop game shop?", I can positively answer that I have found more arcade PCBs and parts for sale in such places than I've seen prototypes (for the record, I've found 1 prototype that way, as opposed to the numerous arcade items I've come across). The guide has never discriminated against "means of distribution and acquisition" in the past, so why now?

...

None of this is to say that you're wrong - it's just how I see it and justify it.

Good points.

Let me just say a few things - prototypes/demos/competition carts etc are in the guide because they are still software for consumer consoles. I think we can safely say that the guide, for the most part, features only software that interfaces with consumer-sold game hardware. MVS cartridges are just a modular form of a normal arcade PCB in my eyes.

Plus, doesn't it bother you that there are scores of MVS exclusives that aren't listed because they dont have AES counterparts? And if the solution to that is, create a MVS section, then why not a Crystal system / Taito F3 / Sega STV section? (or any other modular PCB) Its a can of worms that is dangeous to open.

Again, just my perspective. Yours is equally valid. And even I am coming to terms with the increasing value of the MVS cart market these days

[ClubNinja]

Plus, doesn't it bother you that there are scores of MVS exclusives that aren't listed because they dont have AES counterparts?

This is strictly due to our time restraint. Including MVS was a *very* last minute decision (like five days before the book was to be sent to press, or something along those lines), which meant I could really only include those titles that were paralleled in the existing AES section. With more time available, future editions will include all the MVS-exclusive goodies

And if the solution to that is, create a MVS section, then why not a Crystal system / Taito F3 / Sega STV section? (or any other modular PCB) Its a can of worms that is dangeous to open.

I'd actually love to open that can of worms. While I obviously wouldn't be able to field the whole project myself, I'd be filled with all kinds of joy if a full section or entire book was dedicated to modular PCBs. They're delightful!

[Flack]

I just skimmed, so someone else may have scoffed at this comment before I got a chance to, but including all arcade games and their values would be impossible, or at least pointless.

Every single arcade cabinet you look at has so many different factors into it's price. Unlike a cart, where you're basically evaluating the condition of the label and the cart, on an arcade game there are *so* many variables. The shape of the cabinet itself. Are the parts original, or aftermarket? Is it the right cabinet? Has the monitor been capped? There are literally dozens of things to look at. Different cabinets of the same game can have hundreds of dollars of difference in their price. Hell, most people can't agree on the price of a single cabinet half of the time!

Another thing that plays into arcade cab prices is location. I know for a fact that here in Oklahoma I can get games cheaper than almost anywhere else in the country.

[The Collector]

I just skimmed, so someone else may have scoffed at this comment before I got a chance to, but including all arcade games and their values would be impossible, or at least pointless.

Every single arcade cabinet you look at has so many different factors into it's price. Unlike a cart, where you're basically evaluating the condition of the label and the cart, on an arcade game there are *so* many variables. The shape of the cabinet itself. Are the parts original, or aftermarket? Is it the right cabinet? Has the monitor been capped? There are literally dozens of things to look at. Different cabinets of the same game can have hundreds of dollars of difference in their price. Hell, most people can't agree on the price of a single cabinet half of the time!

Another thing that plays into arcade cab prices is location. I know for a fact that here in Oklahoma I can get games cheaper than almost anywhere else in the country.

What if instead of including the cabs, an evaluation would just be about the PCBs? Cabs without a PCB wouldn't be an arcade game.


`bill

[ClubNinja]

I just skimmed, so someone else may have scoffed at this comment before I got a chance to, but including all arcade games and their values would be impossible, or at least pointless.

Yup, this was lost in the skim. We're only discussing PCBs, and even more specifically modular PCBs (MVS, Sega ST-V, etc). No cabinets at all, just games.

[maxlords]

See....looking through this, I'd have to say that I'd consider ALL arcade stuff completely separate from what should be in a regular DP guide. It's so far removed from the console in terms of what it is and how it is marketed that it's not really something that fits IMO.

Now....granted MVS especially, and to a lesser extent other cart based systems are becoming collectible. That's great. BUT...if we're going to list them....we should really list them in a separate volume or place. And to cover PCBs alone...we're talking hundreds or thousands of pages. It's not really a task that's feasible. Plus international variants, bootlegs and how to ID them, etc etc.

Ultimately, I'd vote to keep MVS separate due to it's limited appeal to a gamer's market (other than to be able to play AES games cheaper). I feel that while PCB collecting is becoming more popular and may end up a part of the average gamer's collection...I don't see it happening. And I think it's because it's SUCH a niche that it really doesn't warrant inclusion in a largely consumer/console based guide. Also...as Geddon mentioned...the prices for MOST arcade stuff are all over the place. There's NO real mainline price for most stuff...even MVS. You can buy it for way less, or way more, depending on who you go to. To establish a VALID median price...VERY difficult in the infancy of PCB collecting. Those are my thoughts on it.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think we might be able to wing a rarity guide...but prices are, as everybody else agrees, pretty pointless.