Oh, my fault, I thought Fallout 3 was an rpg.Originally Posted by Astrocade
Oh, my fault, I thought Fallout 3 was an rpg.
People have been debating this since before the game came out. You can call it an RPG all you want, but when it's in first person perspective and you run around shooting things 98% of the game, well, how is that not a FPS?
First Person + Shooter = First Person Shooter.
So Morrowind is also a FPS I guess, minus the guns. And so is Oblivion. Hmm, and Deus Ex, Mirror's Edge... shall I continue? I guess God of War is a platformer since you jump a lot throughout the game.
I think you just enjoy disagreeing with people because you think it makes you smarter than them.
ANYWAY, again to stay on topic, I'll throw out another underrated game: Final Fantasy XII. I know it sold very well so it's definitely not unknown, but the popular opinion seems to be that it took steps in the wrong direction. Personally it's my favorite in the series. I think they can definitely improve the Gambit system, and the leveling was also lacking, but the openness and the combat were very refreshing. The real star of the game was the hunters guild. They provided a consistent challenge throughout the game, no matter how much you tried to grind.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.I think you just enjoy disagreeing with people because you think it makes you smarter than them.
Look, the general consensus about Fallout 3 is that it's a FPS with RPG elements. You obviously don't feel the same way, and that's great.
And please tell me that you're not suggesting God Of War is also an RPG?
Last edited by Astrocade; 02-19-2009 at 08:27 AM.
Overrated : Halo series, Call of Duty series,
Underrated: Team ICO, Roll Away, Out of this World, Disney-movie-based SNES games (i.e. Lion King, Aladdin, Pinocchio, Toy Story.)
Underrated (edit) - Dungeons of Daggorath, The Haunting, Dinoland Pinball
Last edited by Game Freak; 02-19-2009 at 08:59 AM.
Suggesting God of War is anything but an action adventure game would be asinine right? But see, I used your logic to do that!Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
Look, the general consensus about Fallout 3 is that it's a FPS with RPG elements. You obviously don't feel the same way, and that's great.
And please tell me that you're not suggesting God Of War is also an RPG?
Fallout 3 is an RPG, first and foremost. It can be played from a first person perspective, and it does involve guns. That doesn't make it a fps. I'll agree that it can be played with fps tendencies, but you're pretty much missing the whole point if you do so.
Anyway, this isn't the thread to discuss this. Feel free to make one in modern gaming if you would like to continue arguing.
I love it when people start arguments on forums and then say "this isn't the place to argue".
You can tell yourself a game is whatever you want it to be. It's not asinine to suggest that God of War is anything more than an action adventure game, just pretentious. I'm looking at the cover to God Of War right now. It describes it as an "epic adventure" and "One of the most spectacular action titles to grace the PS2." But I guess that you're more qualified to determine what the game is than the people that created it.
I'm playing Super Mario Brothers 3. I'm no longer going to think of it as a standard platformer. Thanks to you, I realize the folly of my thinking. Mario is a character, so you're playing the role of Mario. He levels up every time he gets a mushroom or leaf. Oh, and there's secrets and puzzles. Yep, I was stupid to never think of this game as an RPG. Hell, the "turn based" fighting of hitting Bowser with a block and then retreating as he launches a counterattack is standard RPG fare. This is closer to Final Fantasy VII than any Sonic game...
You seem to have missed my point, though I'm not surprised. I know that God of War is an action adventure game, but I applied your dumbass logic and suggested that it was instead a platformer because there is jumping in it. See how that works?I love it when people start arguments on forums and then say "this isn't the place to argue".
You can tell yourself a game is whatever you want it to be. It's not asinine to suggest that God of War is anything more than an action adventure game, just pretentious. I'm looking at the cover to God Of War right now. It describes it as an "epic adventure" and "One of the most spectacular action titles to grace the PS2." But I guess that you're more qualified to determine what the game is than the people that created it.
I'm playing Super Mario Brothers 3. I'm no longer going to think of it as a standard platformer. Thanks to you, I realize the folly of my thinking. Mario is a character, so you're playing the role of Mario. He levels up every time he gets a mushroom or leaf. Oh, and there's secrets and puzzles. Yep, I was stupid to never think of this game as an RPG. Hell, the "turn based" fighting of hitting Bowser with a block and then retreating as he launches a counterattack is standard RPG fare. This is closer to Final Fantasy VII than any Sonic game...
Let's use your logic again shall we? Here is a quote from Pete Hines, producer on Fallout 3. You ready? "Fallout 3 is true to the Fallout series; it's an RPG." Now a quote from you, because it's fitting. "But I guess that you're more qualified to determine what the game is than the people that created it."
http://play.tm/interview/17696/peter...out-fallout-3/ to read the whole interview.
Using my dumbass logic, I've pulled up a few quotes by various developers and creators of Fallout 3 that seem to convey that this is indeed a FPS as much as it is an RPG.
From an interview with Executive producer Todd Howard:
Peter Hines interview:Criticism: “Fallout 3″ is just mediocre when judged as a first person shooter.
Howard: Agreed.
Interview with the Bethesda development team:The VATS method of attack is a throwback to the combat system in previous Fallout games. However, does the presentation of an FPS give a confusing message to the player expecting RPG action? Pete Hines thinks not, telling me, “We don’t believe in beating people over the head with the term ‘RPG’. It’s like you have something to prove, or you need to show your 20-sided dice to get in the door. The idea is that you pick up and play the game however you want to. And if you want to be a power gamer and a number cruncher you can, whether you play in VATS or in real-time those numbers are still meaningful.”
From Bethesda's FAQ Page:3dz: OK, let’s talk about the balance between role-playing and action elements in Fallout 3. It seems that RPG elements are a bit hardcore, while the action feels more like a FPS. Is this intended?
BT: Well, we want people to feel like they can play the game however they like. If you’d rather play it like a story-driven FPS and not get into the stats and role-playing, feel free. If you really want to power game and get into the stats and numbers and how best to buff out your character, or spend all your time in dialog, or however you want to roleplay, you can do that too. We don’t think it’s up to us to tell you how you should play the game. We want to give you that freedom and let you go, and do, whatever you want, however you want.
So yeah, it's a little silly to jump up and scream "It's an RPG! End of story!" Bethesda clearly went after two markets here, and to say that Fallout 3 is strictly an RPG is just a narrow view. It's almost as if you're ashamed of playing something that could be classed as a FPS. Like you feel superior in intelligence compared to the average FPS fan and so you want to believe that only by calling it an RPG can you still carry off your delusions of grandeur. I can already tell that you have an inferiority complex by the way you've childishly attacked my intelligence without provocation, so what's your beef? Me, the world, other gamers, yourself? What?Players can attack in either 3rd or 1st person perspective, leading some to suggest the term 'TPS' (third person shooter) would be at least as appropriate as FPS, while others consider that to be overly pedantic.
My beef is obviously you calling Fallout 3 an fps. And if you think those quotes point to Fallout 3 being a FPS then I think questioning your intelligence is definitely called for. It seems you have shifted your position though to admitting it is an rpg with fps elements. Look a few posts up, I already said that. We're in agreement then, we can call it a day!
And am I ashamed of being an FPS gamer? No sir, probably more than 80% of my gaming this past year has been with either Orange Box or Call of Duty 4 and "5". Rpgs are my genre of choice, but when time is tight FPSs can bring much quicker satisfaction. Having said that, my experiences online would actually point to the average fps gamer being somewhat dim, but I think you would probably agree with me on that one.
Anyway, I call a truce. I'm cranky because we're getting slammed at work, and I went overboard on a minor disagreement. I apologize. And I agree, Zombies Ate My Neighbors is a kickass game.
I picked up and played Fallout 3 out of the box as a FPS. I realize you could play it as an RPG if you wanted to, but I think that my quotes illustrate that the designers intended it to be an RPG only if you wanted to go that route. At its core, it is still a FPS with RPG elements to me.
But I agree to a truce- I know all about shitty work environments. And I also agree with your assessment of Guerilla War and Snow Bros. Very playable and rarely mentioned.
You can get a bow and arrow in Oblivion. You shoot these, and you can play the game from a first-person perspective. Does this make it an FPS?
Hell, Morrowind had crossbows...
(I'm in the 'Fallout 3 is first and foremost an RPG' camp if you hadn't guessed ;-)
Send me that stack of GamesTM and I'll agree with whatever you say.
Overrated:
Fallout 3
I mean whats so great about it. ok at the begining I also thought "Hey great game" but after some hours of playing I realized that it is nothing special. It is the same like every other boring RPG from Europe or US. IT is allways the same.
Thats why I don't like RPG from the west. Because you just run arround in a too big world but infact nearly every corner looks similar. Then just leveling up and beating monster and collecting items..thats it. And it is allways the same.
And Story? Mostly none or just so simple that is ridiculous.
And beside that the world of Fallout 3 reminds me a lot of Hellgate London..even the monster looks sometimes quite the same. After over 15 Hours playing it I stoped because it was f...ing boring. I can't see something special in all those non japanese RPG's.
Thats why I prefer japanese Rpg with a great touching story, big emotions and real characters not just "Made them yourself no personality characters" from European or US RPG's.
Thats my opinion.
From Densha's public profile:
"Biography:
I love videogames mostly all stuff from Japan. I love Japan. I hope I can live there in the future."
Gee, he's not biased or anything.
A lot of the problems you're citing with Fallout 3 are subjective. You don't like it, that's cool. But the whole world doesn't look the same and if you invest some time, you'll find that the story is very rich and multifaceted--but it's not a detailed narrative with intense character development and heavy-handed cinematic story-telling. It's more of a detailed description of an alternate world with an alternate history. You don't care for it, and that's cool. I admit that Japanese RPG designers are chasing after a totally different idea than those in the West, but just because it's not Japanese doesn't make it "nothing special". It is special to some people.
It is nothing special and thats my opinion.
If someone things that it is special then please tell me whats so GREAT about it...and whats so unique about it compare to other games. Infact there is nothing and this has nothing to do with my taste this is a fact.
I am sure many like this games because they enjoy this end time setting and the great graphics but also other games got great graphic so what ?
Please tell me whats so different to other games from the west in this genre?
If it is Two World, Hellgate London, Elders Scroll or Fallout 3 infact they are all the same. Sure different settings (not in the case of Fallout 3 because it looks quite similar to hellgate london even the enemies does) and other times in history but thats all infact. These are the only differences between all these west oriented rpg/action Rpg games.
Common don't tell me that there is a great stroy behind fallout 3. Wow..your father is gone and you search for him and later you can deside which side you choose. If you want to blew up everything or not. Wow what a great story line.
It is not that I played this game just 4 hours and then I said "It sucks".
I am played it arround 15 to 20 hours or maybe more but not less.
And there is no story. Just unimportant blabbering with some npc's about their plans and if you want to join them or to find a new place to live for them.
Common how awsome ==" this was ironic~~
All the games I wrote are the same in this was.
To big worlds..everytime just running arround until you don't even now where you are and why in hells name you do this. Doing quests then get new skills, kill enemies, level up and thats it. In all this cases.
And sure I am a big Japan fan but not only.
There are a lot great Games from the West but not RPG's or Action RPG's.
I really like Mirror's Edge,Uncharted,Gears of War or Bioshock which really was awsome and some kind of cinematic. And I really love point and click adventures because there is really story telling important and most of them are also quite funny.
But I really tried a lot of these western rpg's and everytime after spending hours over hours on playing them and was dissapointed. Because of the fact that there was nothing behind it. It is the same like online rpgs. Just walking arround, collecting Items, lv up, kill monser, skills...gain better weapons, earn money..wow how innovative.
I really played a very long time Ragnarok but then I ask my self "why do you do this?" After some time you loose the point in playing those games because it doesn't satisfy you.
Thats why I love japanese RPG's after I finish a game I really feel that I really did something. I was living a story with awsome cinematic changes and great and deep characters and this satisfy my self.
Sure I don't say that it is a bad thing if you like those games like Fallout 3.
I am just telling you my opinion and this is my own right to do this.
Because this thread is called "What Games are overrated to YOU?" or am I wrong?
So this is my opinion and I don't say that everyone should have the same thinking. It is just mine.
What is so great about Elder Scrolls games? Freedom. The freedom to play your character how you want, go where you want, and do what you want. I find details about the games interesting too. The books, for example which contain lots of stories about the game's world. I haven't played Hellgate or Fallout 3, so I can't defend those titles.
What if I told you all Japanese style RPGs were the same? Same railroad story*, same four to seven archatype characters, and the same basics of the story "You must save the world from evil/darkness/sin/clowns."
*A railroad story is a term pen and paper role-players use to describe a game where everytime they try to do something that ignores the main story something the game master does blocks them from doing so. (The game master in this case being the video game's designers)
If the formula in "Western" RPGs is "kill monsters to collect items and level up" the formula in "Japanese" RPGs is "go to temple/cave/dungeon/town and kill boss to gain access to next temple/cave/dungeon/town." If you remove the story from the Japanese RPGs they play just as similiarly as the Western RPGs.
If you took a Japanese RPG and played it on pen and paper (or with random stock graphics) and changed the details (Character names, place names and locations, and plot device names) and changed slight elements of the story my bet is you wouldn't be able to tell which one you were playing.
I enjoy good games from everywhere. I do not share your sense of accomplishment when beating a Japanese RPG. I find them more like reading a book. They take a lot of time, but anyone with a little dedication can do it.
I think the debate between a series like Elder Scrolls and more traditional RPGs is one of freedom versus story. The more freedom the player has, the less control the designer is going to have over the story (or characters or whatever). The more control the designer has over the story, the less freedom the player is going to have during gameplay.
If you like story you will like Japanese RPGs. If you like freedom and control you'll like Western RPGs. If you like freedom and story you will like them both.
I do not think that disliking a genre is the same as thinking a title is "overrated". There is nothing wrong with disliking a genre. We all probably have a genre we dislike, but labeling a game or series as "overrated" just because you don't like the genre is not fair.
I don't mean to single you out, I feel the same way about people who say things like "Madden is overrated. I don't even like sports games". If you don't like a genre how do you know which ones are overrated? If a game is the best in its genre and you still hate it...how is it overrated?
Densha, you would probably be a great candidate to tell us which Japanese RPG titles are overrated or underrated. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
My list:
Overrated:
Final Fantasy Tactics series: To me there better tactical RPGs out there. Disgaea series stands out (I love how the Disgaea games don't take themselves too seriously). I liked Vandal Hearts II much more than I liked Final Fantasy Tactics. The Shining Force series also stands above the Final Fantasy Tactics series, which is still pretty good I admit. The story and gameplay is fun, but there are better Tactical RPGs out there. I don't understand why so many people prefer this game to other titles (I suspect because it has "Final Fantasy" in the title)
Diablo: I've always hated this series. It isn't a good third person RPG. It isn't a good dungeon crawler. It's just "click, click, click". Button mashers do not work well on a mouse. Some of the classes in the expansion of Diablo 2 made it playable, but it still wasn't very much fun. I don't understand why so many people were crazy about this series.
Guitar Hero/Rock Band: I do not get these games. The guitar controller and the music act as a novelty so you don't notice you are just pushing buttons when the game tells you to. It's like Space Channel 5 or PaRappa the Rappa without the rhythm part or like Simon (the little toy with the colors) without the memory part. I don't understand why people like the game or why it is even considered a game. You are just pushing the buttons when the machine tells you to. That isn't a game, that's working in a factory.
Underrated:
NHL '97 (Playstation): This was a great simple hockey game. Playing against a friend in two player mode required a sense of timing and finese that seem lost in modern hockey titles.
NCAA Football 98 (Playstation): This is the best football title that EA sports has ever released. It is fun and doesn't get caught up in "realism" yet still keeps from playing too arcadey. It was the first college football title with dynasty mode and it had every NCAA team (in D-I or Bowl Subdivison or whatever they called it at the time).
Guardian Heroes (Saturn): I always loved the style of Guardian Heroes and thought that it was an overlooked title. If titles like this had gotten better exposure the Saturn might have lasted longer.
Crystal Warriors (Genesis): This is a great little tactical RPG for the Genesis and is often ignored. It is dwarfed by the more popular Shining Force titles.
Capcom Disney Titles (NES): Ducktales, Chip 'n Dale, and Darkwing Duck all got great platformers for the NES. Ducktales and Chip 'n Dale even got sequels. Even that Talespin game wasn't bad. In my opinion these were some of the best titles for the NES and they have been largerly ignored by history. You always hear people talk about Contra and Blaster Master, but never about these games.
Team Buddies (Playstation): I think the fact that it is hard to find and was released late in the Playstation's life time has hurt this title. I cannot express the fun that you have when you and three of your friends are playing against each other. I just wouldn't recommend paying a ton of money for the title. The single player missions aren't that great, just the multiplayer mayhem.
Ramma 1/2: Hard Battle (SNES): I would recommend getting Ramma 1/2 Hard Battle if only for the music. One of the best video game scores ever.
pokemon is highly over rated
First of all. I just want to say that I am not against any game from the start.
Like I wrote in my text "I give every game a chance" but it is sadly a fact that I allways got dissapointed by playing all those west-Rpg's. It was not on purpose. I really wanted to play these games because I also was interested in them but I really played every of these games (Hell Gate Londen,Fall Out 3,Elder Scrolls, Fable,Two Worlds, The Witcher (by the way. The witcher was the best of all these ones)) for more then 10 hours. Most of them I spend arround 20-30 hours playing them..so really a lot of time. But they really bored me after some time. Because I missed the flow..the dynamic Story telling. Sure there are books, or papers or data files in all those games where you can find out some background infos about the world you are wandering arround but thats not story telling for me. Infact this is more like reading a book for me...but not a fantasy book more like a pen and paper book.
Sure if you cut the story parts out of the japanese games and turn arround some things then it would be the "same" like western rpg's but thats exactly the point.
Because of the story telling, because of these japanese touch in telling stories and because of the emotions and funny parts because of all that I like them so much. Sure the core is allways ..or nearly a similar one but it is important what they create with it. Some stories stay plain but others touches you and you will allways remember them forever. I am sure everyone will remember Final Fantasy VII (the ones who played it) because this game was awsome. But I am sure that in 20 years no one will talk about fall out 3 anymore but final fantasy VII I am sure will always be there.
This is exactly the point. Sure it is a matter of taste and I just say that it is not mine but everyone should play what they like and whats the most fun for them to play.
Oh and by the way here are my underrated and overrated japanese RPG Games:
Overrated:
Final Fantasy XII
I think that this part lost all his typical Final Fantasy feeling. Sure the graphic was awsome but it didn't cought my attention. I missed the deep story line. It was to political and not much feeling in it. Fighting was a little bit hard sometimes and the battle system was not my fav one.
Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King
Also overrated. Maybe it is not that bad but I really wasn't able to like it that much in the end. After some time I wasn't interested in it anymore. Maybe it was the artwork/design of the game...I am not sure. So many says its great but in my case I didn't felt this point inside myself that it is something special.
Mabye I will give it a chance in the future again.
For example the ultimative prototype of a perfect japnese RPG in my case is Tales of the Abyss. This was and is one of the best RPG's I have ever played.
Great Story, Deep characters, touching moments, Awsome music, great cinematic flow..this was really perfect for me.
And underrated:
Shining Force EXA (Sure it is not a world changing game but I really liked it)
Last edited by ~日本~Densha~; 03-05-2009 at 04:49 PM.
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