Rockstar says 360 is limiting GTA IV's progress. Is this a sign of things to come?

[agbulls]

Yes, the interview posted below doesn't point to a LOT of specifics in terms of the problems that Rockstar is apparently having. However, this got me to thinking...is this a sign of the things to come in the future? Will developers that want to create massive worlds with incredible detail be forced into developing for the PS3 --and not the 360 -- due to sheer system specifications (cell + HD)? Or, is this just totally blown out of proportions to create a good headline? Did Sony really see the future in five years and plan accordingly? Is Mircrosoft screwed? Will GTA be crippled on 360? Will I stop asking questions? Ok, here's the juicy part ;) :

An interview with the UK's Official PlayStation Magazine reveals that Rockstar's creative VP Dan Houser believes the 360 is impairing the development of Grand Theft Auto IV. According to the magazine's online partner, Computer and Videogames, Houser says the lack of a guaranteed hard drive and the smaller storage space of the DVD format is limiting the game's progress. In contrast, all PS3s have a built-in hard drive and the console's Blu-Ray format can hold about five times as much content as DVD.

Houser does admit that of the two consoles, "both have enormous challenges," and "both have their own particular pleasures and pains."

"To be honest with you we haven't solved all those riddles yet," Houser explained.

[heybtbm]

Houser says the lack of a guaranteed hard drive and the smaller storage space of the DVD format is limiting the game's progress.

I think the larger install base will always convince developers to do a 360 version of their particular game. Obviously, money talks and the cost of additional development time is minuscule compared to the increased revenue a 360 port brings.

I think the real question is, when a game comes out for PS3 and 360, will the 360 version look and play less "next-gen" than the PS3 version? Developers might have to compromise because of the lack of a guaranteed hard drive and games potentially requiring 4 -5 discs.

[Snapple]

I wonder what stuff they even have to "leave out" because of the 360. If it's like, sweating effects and superficial crap, then I couldn't care less.

[Neil Koch]

Maybe the lesser graphics are going to be the trade-off for the exclusive downloadable stuff.

[gepeto]

The way I see it we have been swapping disc for 10 years so the whole capacity point is mute. The hard drive is nice but programmers worked around it and gta is so popular they could release gt4 as a must have hard drive. N64 did with the expansion.. I think the amount of non hard drives base 360 is small.

Honestly how much space are developers going to use? Developers got a nice port of half life 2 to the xbox. So these guys have to work. When it is all said and done I will bet the farm that both are identical.

[FantasiaWHT]

I wonder what stuff they even have to "leave out" because of the 360. If it's like, sweating effects and superficial crap, then I couldn't care less.

Ne'er was a truer word spoken.

[jajaja]

The way I see it we have been swapping disc for 10 years so the whole capacity point is mute.

Games that are linear where you go from point A to B swapping is no problem, but for games like GTA where you can drive anywhere, i think swapping is pretty much out of the question. Imagine if you drive into one area and you must swap. Then you leave the area, you must swap again. Then you forgot to do one thing in the area, swap disc again, leave area, swap disc yet again.

[FantasiaWHT]

Not necessarily, I don't think the size of the gameworld was what made games multi-disc, it was the pre-rendered cinemas and voice-overs. Put the game and all the NPC's on each disc, then divide up the story-driven voice-overs and cinemas among the other discs

[jajaja]

Sure, FMV etc. are factors that increases the gamesize much, but bigger worlds = more models = bigger size. If GTA 4 is enough for a DVD9, i'm sure the developers will do everything they can to make it fit. But splitting a game like this into multi disc for whatever reason that must be is something that wont work out too good. The developers will avoid this as much as they can.

[YoshiM]

Why not just specify: "GTA4 requires a hard drive with at least XXX space available". I have a feeling the size of the "core" system ownership is pretty small next to the "premier" group, so excluding those poor souls that didn't get a hard drive wouldn't hurt earnings too much. Besides, this could lead to a massive sale of 360 hard drives and if Microsoft would have a $10 to $30 mail-in rebate if you buy GTA and a hard drive that would be a good incentive to upgrade.

However I think developers are getting more lazy as storage spaces increase. I have to check but I think the Company of Heroes PC *DEMO* took up 5GB installed. Sheesh!

[diskoboy]

I think the hard drive argument is a moot point.

I think it's safe to say 99% of all 360 owners have HD's. And now that the elites are out, I think the core will be extinct in a matter of months. Which will mean pretty much everyone from then on will have one.

And they can still make the game with the ability to stream from the HD. That will probably get those people without a HD to get one.

[gepeto]

Games that are linear where you go from point A to B swapping is no problem, but for games like GTA where you can drive anywhere, i think swapping is pretty much out of the question. Imagine if you drive into one area and you must swap. Then you leave the area, you must swap again. Then you forgot to do one thing in the area, swap disc again, leave area, swap disc yet again.

Good point. The thing that gets me is early in the 360's life cycle there were developers claiming that dvd space was so limited and I even recall one saying a unnamed company was already up to 4 dvds.

I just knew it was oblivion but that was one disc. Blue Dragon? So how much space do games really need. The last I heard the developers didn't utilize the original xbox hard disk space and all of them had hard drives and some even claimed that the most companies don't come close to maxing out on dvd with the xbox. Who is telling the truth?

I don't know who to believe. One more thing if the disc is 2 sided like dvd movies Ex a and B It might be wierd but would that help wouldn't that be 18 gigs using dual layers on both sides? Has it been done?

[ProgrammingAce]

This would all imply that 360 discs hold 9 GB... they do not.

;)

[Buyatari]

If you ask me it sounds like Rockstar is afraid they aren't going to live up to the hype and they are already making excuses. Its a pre-emptive statement before the bad press hits about yet another over-hyped sequal that can't live up to their prior GTAIII glory.

[Buyatari]

If you ask me it sounds like Rockstar is afraid they aren't going to live up to the hype and they are already making excuses. Its a pre-emptive statement before the bad press hits about yet another over-hyped sequal that can't live up to the prior glory of GTAIII.

[Melf]

Developers might have to compromise because of the lack of a guaranteed hard drive and games potentially requiring 4 -5 discs.

I don't think they should compromise anything. The three people that went and bought the core system shouldn't have any sway in release decisions at all because now it's finally hit them that they're running out of storage space. It's 2007; get a fucking hard drive.


So these guys have to work. When it is all said and done I will bet the farm that both are identical.

We're talking about Rockstar, remember? They're bitching because they need to make GTA 4 as advanced as possible so they can milk the next 6 sequels out of the same engine. Not to mention the fact that Saints Row does everything GTA does in terms of gameplay, and does it better (like actually being able to aim). They're scared shitless at the amount of pressure this game is under to deliver.

[FantasiaWHT]

Sure, FMV etc. are factors that increases the gamesize much, but bigger worlds = more models = bigger size. If GTA 4 is enough for a DVD9, i'm sure the developers will do everything they can to make it fit. But splitting a game like this into multi disc for whatever reason that must be is something that wont work out too good. The developers will avoid this as much as they can.

More models does not necessarily equal bigger size. More UNIQUE models equals bigger size. If the generic NPC's are fashioned from a certain number of variables (height, body size, hair, clothes, etc.) with a fixed number of possibilities, it doesn't take very much more space at all to include 30 people based on those possibilities than 3.

Oblivion is a great example- massive world, tons of NPC's, tons of items, tons of graphics... one DVD. But no FMV.

[djsquarewave]

I think it's safe to say 99% of all 360 owners have HD's.

I have a feeling the size of the "core" system ownership is pretty small next to the "premier" group, so excluding those poor souls that didn't get a hard drive wouldn't hurt earnings too much.

I think the amount of non hard drives base 360 is small.
I think a lot of you are underestimating how cheap the average gamer is. Microsoft wouldn't keep making the core system if it wasn't selling briskly.

Requiring the HDD would certainly bring a spike in sales for them, though.

[jajaja]

More models does not necessarily equal bigger size. More UNIQUE models equals bigger size.

Thats what i ment, more unique models and textures. If you have 50 models in a game that looks just the same you just re-use the 1 model of course. Its a waste of space to have 50 models and 50 files thats looks just alike :)

[Ed Oscuro]

I wonder what stuff they even have to "leave out" because of the 360. If it's like, sweating effects and superficial crap, then I couldn't care less.
No, more like the art assets, geometry, and voice acting to take full advantage of the 360's graphics processing ability.


They're bitching because they need to make GTA 4 as advanced as possible so they can milk the next 6 sequels out of the same engine.
Well, that's an odd way of putting it...they're bitching because the 360 is pretty far from the level of the PS3 in at least one significant aspect. Having DVDs and Blu-Ray coexisting is going to pose much more of a logistical problem than the GameCube Game Disc ever did.

We haven't gotten there yet, but some games will make use of the Cell to do things that would be far slower (or impossible) on the 360, as well. Probably will be a minor impact (relatively speaking) as most people want to play prettier games of the same type we've had this last generation.

[Cryomancer]

They didn't have a problem on the ps2, I can't imagine why the 360 is "hindering" them, unless it's all music and voiceovers and pre-rendered stuff. Filling a DVD9 with just models, textures, animations? I doubt it. Have basic music channels and free download packs for more if they're that worried about it.

[Lothars]

I've said it once and I will say it again, Microsoft has really screwed up with not having the hard drive required on every game that's released,

The Core system is a bad idea and a waste of money, it's always has been and always will be, they need to have the hard drive required because This is a sign of things to come and it will bite Microsoft in the Ass

If that's one thing Sony did right it was make a hard drive standard across all Sku's

[Anthony1]

If any version of GTA IV is going to be holding back the other, it's going to be the PS3 version holding back the 360 version. I read that complete article, and Dan Houser made it extremely clear that both consoles had their issues. We all know that the PS3 is extremely difficult to program for, at least now it is. Maybe by 2009 developers will get to grips with the PS3, and it will be the opposite way around, but right now the 360 is the lead platform. Rockstar is showing the 360 build of GTA IV to the gaming press for a reason. It looks better, and it plays better. Why? Because Rockstar probably received their 360 development kits 18 months prior to receiving their PS3 dev kits. It's only natural to think that Rockstar would be much further along in development with the 360 version, and would feel much more at ease with 360 development. They did test the R.A.G.E. engine with Rockstar Table Tennis on the 360. This is their second crack at the 360 hardware, and their very first crack at the PS3 hardware.

Everybody seems to think because the PS3 is using Blu Ray disks and the 360 is using DVD-9's that the PS3 version is going to be held back because of the 360's smaller storage medium, but if we look at Oblivion, it's pretty obvious that huge games can fit on both media just fine.

I own all 3 major consoles, and I can really care less who ultimately wins this console war, but I have to say that I would be very suprised if the PS3 version of GTA IV is the better version. Why would I think that? Simply because right now, the development environment is better on the 360. The 360 is the easier platform to work on. I think GTA IV will run smoother on 360. The PS3 version could have some other advantages, but ultimately, I think the 360 version will be the better version to have. But I guess time will tell.



I've said it once and I will say it again, Microsoft has really screwed up with not having the hard drive required on every game that's released,

The Core system is a bad idea and a waste of money, it's always has been and always will be, they need to have the hard drive required because This is a sign of things to come and it will bite Microsoft in the Ass



Actually the Core system is going to turn out to be the SMARTEST thing that Microsoft ever did. If you look at the NPD numbers for console sales in the last few months, the 3 systems that are dominating (DS, PS2 and Wii) are the 3 cheapest systems to buy. Money talks and bullshit walks. Just look at the sales of the PS3. $599.99 is a helluva lotta money to ask somebody to spend on a video game system despite all the extras it provides. This Xmas, the core will be $199.99 and at that price, it will be a mass-market sensation, and it will get Microsoft to 20 million and 25 million installed much faster than Sony, and it will even get them there faster than Nintendo. This will pretty much end the war as we know it, and it will be a battle for second place between Sony and Nintendo.

[Garry Silljo]

This Xmas, the core will be $199.99 and at that price, it will be a mass-market sensation, and it will get Microsoft to 20 million and 25 million installed much faster than Sony, and it will even get them there faster than Nintendo. This will pretty much end the war as we know it, and it will be a battle for second place between Sony and Nintendo.

Ha. Place your bets everyone.

[Joker T]

I agree with Anthony1's points about the Core, the price is a big thing in the console war. Especially now that PS3 only comes in the 60gb $600 SKU. The gap is narrowed even further.

[cyberfluxor]

Make GTA IV n discs long and make the nth disc the play disc. The first 1-(n-1) are install discs for manditory HDs with X GB free space. Easy solution, it's what they'll be doing for the PC version anyhow.

[neuropolitique]

This Xmas, the core will be $199.99 and at that price, it will be a mass-market sensation, and it will get Microsoft to 20 million and 25 million installed much faster than Sony, and it will even get them there faster than Nintendo. This will pretty much end the war as we know it, and it will be a battle for second place between Sony and Nintendo.

I can not believe that You believe MS will reduce the price of the Core by $100 in the next 7 months. MS is still losing money on each 360. You really think they are willing to lose even more? They've stated before that the 360 should be profitable next year. I don't see how reducing the price of the core by $100 will accomplish that goal.

[Anthony1]

I can not believe that You believe MS will reduce the price of the Core by $100 in the next 7 months. MS is still losing money on each 360. You really think they are willing to lose even more? They've stated before that the 360 should be profitable next year. I don't see how reducing the price of the core by $100 will accomplish that goal.


Microsoft is going to have 3 skus for fall. The Elite will drop from $479.99 to $399.99 taking the place of the premium. The Premium will drop from $399.99 to $299.99 taking the place of the core, and the Core will drop to $199.99 giving them a low cost, bare bones option that will allow them to compete head to head with the Nintendo Wii. BANK ON IT.

It would be foolish to think that Sony isn't going to drop the price of the PS3 this Xmas. There is no way they can compete in this industry selling the paltry amounts of PS3's that they are selling each month. (Based on their March and February NPD numbers). Unforunately, they are losing alot on each PS3, and that is going to get even worse with the price drop to $499.99, but the alternative is even worse. The Alternative is staying at the $599.99 price all through Xmas and being so far behind in installed base that there is zero chance of being a serious factor in North America. Sony simply can't chance this. My guess is they drop the price from $599 to $499 on October 1st, which just so happens to be a few weeks prior to the release of GTA IV. Perfect timing as far as Sony is concerned.

With the 60gb PS3 at $499.99, and considering it includes Blu Ray and the Elite doesn't, there isn't any way the Elite can stay at $479.99. The Elite is definitely going to be priced at $399.99 at some point this year. That is a given. The two options beyond that is:


Drop the Premium to $299.99 and eliminate the core

or

Drop the Premium to $299 and still have the core, but drop the core to $199



Considering that Microsoft insiders told EGM and 1up staffers that a $199.99 core is the key to the ultimate victory in this war (off the record they told them that), I'm thinking the core isn't going anywhere, and the core is actually the key to the whole mass market situation. The core makes no other sense, than to have a very bare bones, low cost option, that allows Joe Sixpack to enter into Next-Gen gaming without going broke. It's gonna happen.

[Melf]

Well, that's an odd way of putting it...they're bitching because the 360 is pretty far from the level of the PS3 in at least one significant aspect. Having DVDs and Blu-Ray coexisting is going to pose much more of a logistical problem than the GameCube Game Disc ever did.

Rockstar's just pointing out one major difference between the two, that's obviously not major enough for them to forego a 360 release. What I meant was that it's funny to hear Rockstar of all companies talk about technological restrictions, when it's basically used the same GTA 3 engine for more than half a decade. It's not known for pushing the boundaries of the consoles it works on.


We haven't gotten there yet, but some games will make use of the Cell to do things that would be far slower (or impossible) on the 360, as well. Probably will be a minor impact (relatively speaking) as most people want to play prettier games of the same type we've had this last generation.

I'm sure we'll also hear about some things that are impossible on the PS3 but not on 360, but it's all just tech talk. No one's going to snub either console this gen, due to the high costs of game development.

Rockstar can whine all it wants now, but it won't be complaining when the 360 sales numbers come in.

[Garry Silljo]

Considering that Microsoft insiders told EGM and 1up staffers that a $199.99 core is the key to the ultimate victory in this war (off the record they told them that), I'm thinking the core isn't going anywhere, and the core is actually the key to the whole mass market situation.

Help me out. If it was off the record, how do you know about it. I'm not calling you a liar (yet), I just need to know how you are so deep inside to acquire all this information. It just sounds to me like you are guessing with ludicrous amounts of confidence.

[Anthony1]

Help me out. If it was off the record, how do you know about it. I'm not calling you a liar (yet), I just need to know how you are so deep inside to acquire all this information. It just sounds to me like you are guessing with ludicrous amounts of confidence.



They talked about it in a 1upYours podcast back in the middle of 2006. What had happened, was that some Microsoft guys had come to the 1up and EGM offices to show off the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive. While there, the EGM and 1up people said something like this to the Microsoft guys:

"So, you guys are going to kill off the Core system, right?"

(not word for word, but something along those lines)

And then the Microsoft representatives responded something like this:

"Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth. The Core is our ticket to mass market. The whole reason we have a core system is to get to $199 as fast as possible. The core will allow us to do that. The core is absolutely central to our overall strategy"

(Again, not word for word, it was told second hand via Shane Bettenhausen)


Shane Bettenhausen was basically saying that we talked to the Microsoft guys off the record about the Core system, and that they said the core was a big part of the 360's future. So anyways, that was in a podcast sometime during 2006. It was prior to the official release of the HD-DVD add on in the USA. I could probably research a bit and find out the exact podcast, and you can download it and listen to it to see if I'm making this stuff up. Of course, Microsoft could have felt that way in mid 2006, and at this point they could be thinking something completely different, who knows. Personally, the core makes absolutely zero sense unless they use it to have a box at retail at the magical price of $199.99. Otherwise the Core makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As much as the core hurts the overall motus operendi of the Xbox 360 (developers having to program for 360's with the knowledge that it might not have a hard drive), it could benefit Microsoft tremendously as a Wal-Mart and Target special at $199.99. I mean just imagine it....Halo 3 and GTA IV both on store shelves, and a core system selling for $199.99. It would be pretty much game over in North America at that point.

[Anthony1]

I found it. It appears my memory was a bit off, it wasn't Shane Bettenhausen that talked about it, it was mostly Garnett Lee and Luke Smith and then Shane Bettenhausen chimed in on it. But it was Garnett Lee and Luke Smith who actually talked to the Microsoft dudes. Also, they were talking about the Core system being $150 eventually down the line...

The Podcast was the 1upYours podcast for 08-18-06. The discussion starts at around 17 minutes and 35 seconds into the podcast and is pretty short. I took some time and tried my best to transcribe it, just because I think it's a very interesting discussion that didn't get much run in the gaming press. In fact, I don't think it got any run. Anyways, here is the discussion:



Garnett Lee: That's true, but you know what's more interesting to me about price...was that we've wondered for a long time about the Core system, and..and here's the Core system spelled out for you...their plan... and the reason they have, or at least now what the reason they're saying they have the core.. is that their goal, is to sell you a Xbox 360 ultimately, for 150 bucks.

Luke Smith: A Core Xbox 360

Garnett Lee: Right. They want to be able to eventually...because their, their thinking is, that you know, well, PS2 didn't take off untill it went to 150, and now that it's 130 they are selling tons of them again, We want a machine, that we can sell, ultimately, when we start doing price drops, eventually down the road....at 150 bucks...

Luke Smith: I just want to point out, pre Garnett forum rape....that I think the PS2 probably did okay before it got to 150..

Garnett Lee: Oh yeah, no it did great before then..right..

Luke Smith: just..just...pre....before you get raped... I just wanna..

Garnett Lee: Right, right..I mean if someone wants to rape me for that, it's ignorant.. The point is that, it went mass market at 150..but there's like... price points

Shane Bettenhausen: Right, well what's interesting, because some people think they are trying to do away with the core system, and like your saying, no, like they actually like the core system, and want to keep it around

Garnett Lee: As a matter of fact...he said that when we got to the end of this whole life sign, that there would be more people that own core, than own pro systems

Shane Bettenhausen: Right, well that's what I find interesting, that right now for PSP, the only way to buy it, is like the one, that doesn't have anything with it, like you can't get the one that has the memory card and carrying case anymore. that's gone..Like if you buy a PSP....

John Davison: You can't even get the giga pack anymore?

Shane Bettenhausen: No. All that's available now, is the one with nothing, it's the only thing that's available in America

John Davison: So...

Garnett Lee: Interesting...I, I mean, I always wrote the core pack off, I mean I'm one of the guys who to... I totally...I totally wrote the core pack off, because my argument with them is that, hey, if you're going to push, if you're going to push dowloadable content, how do you do downloadable content, if you don't have a harddrive. DONE..... And their argument was..."Well you know, there are some people that just wanna play games and, etc, etc, etc....





....................................

[Ed Oscuro]

Thanks for that transcript, Anthony1!

Yeah, this isn't making things easier for developers, but it's the right thing to do by consumers; with the Xbox 360 you might not get the totally hardc0re experience of the PS3, but you aren't going to be saddled with stuff you won't use for a while, either (I recall arguing, myself, that the PS3 was saddling users with a Blu-Ray drive, which in retrospect was totally off the mark).


Make GTA IV n discs long and make the nth disc the play disc. The first 1-(n-1) are install discs for manditory HDs with X GB free space. Easy solution, it's what they'll be doing for the PC version anyhow.
I was going to write this off, but now you've got me wondering. Will we see console games with install discs? If so, there'd better be an easy way to check how much spare drive space you have. That said, this doesn't really get to the root of Rock*'s problem, because if you fill up those 360 hard drives replacements are insanely expensive (far more than the price of a regular drive at a store).

[gepeto]

Are developers really using all the space on the current dvd format now? What game now has the dvd at the limit was it Gears that was one disc.

I need clarity on the dual layer dvd I was under the impression that dual layer dvd's meant that a single sided dvd disc could hold 8 plus gigs of data.

On the core issue. Since the launch I know of only 1 guy that owns a core and that was because it was the only one left at launch and he bought a hard drive. I think microsoft is saying the core will be availible to those that want the 360 experience cheap without the bells and whistles. How many people here knows someone with just a core and no hard drive(thats an adult)?

Also even if you have the ability to make a 55 gig game what developer is to sink that much into a game I think the cost would be astronomical. A few months ago what developer went on a rant about the overhype of developement cost and size for the next gen games.

[Ed Oscuro]

Are developers really using all the space on the current dvd format now? What game now has the dvd at the limit was it Gears that was one disc.
This is still just the beginning of this generation. Soon they will.


I need clarity on the dual layer dvd I was under the impression that dual layer dvd's meant that a single sided dvd disc could hold 8 plus gigs of data.
8.5 GB, yes.


Also even if you have the ability to make a 55 gig game what developer is to sink that much into a game I think the cost would be astronomical.
Yes, but nobody said that games in the future would be unsophisticated. Much of that space can get eaten up quickly with full voice acting and larger textures - not all that hard to make, just take time and resources.

[Garry Silljo]

O.K. You went above and beyond on that one. I just needed a source and would have done my own research, but appreciate the work being done for me. Of course even if this is their EVENTUAL plan, you are still taking a risk by predicting the dates it will occur by. Good luck on that.

[skaar]

However I think developers are getting more lazy as storage spaces increase. I have to check but I think the Company of Heroes PC *DEMO* took up 5GB installed. Sheesh!

I agree. Software and games are becoming bloated, and it seems that laziness is one of the bigger culprits. After all, why make anything efficient if you can just increase system requirements? Consoles are actually good for this in a way as it does force development to be more careful about what goes into a game title due to the constraints of the system.

Sure, textures and models and FMVs eat up space. But there are ways around that without compromising much if anything... just development time. Problem is - that's become the most expensive thing in games these days. Time is BIG money now. Hardcore optimization has fallen by the wayside since it's cheaper just to up the specs. :P

[Anthony1]

O.K. You went above and beyond on that one. I just needed a source and would have done my own research, but appreciate the work being done for me. Of course even if this is their EVENTUAL plan, you are still taking a risk by predicting the dates it will occur by. Good luck on that.


Thank you. Yeah, obviously making a prediction like the core will be $199.99 this Xmas is definitely sticking my neck out there as far as predictions are concerned, and if you look at my history of making bold predictions, I'm usually wrong. If I'm wrong about this one, then it's just another example of me being way off base, but I think Microsoft either needs to take a shit or get off the pot as far as the Core is concerned. Either discontinue the Core and be done with it, and allow games to come out that require hard drives, or use the Core to the full advantage and make it what it really needs to be... a very low cost, bare bones way for casuals and low income gamers to at least be able to get a 360 and be able to enjoy games like Mass Effect, BioShock, Halo 3 and All-Pro Football 2K8 and stuff like that. They can get the bare bones system for $199.99, and then pick up one game, and they can actually experience what real next-gen gaming is all about, without going too broke. Sure, they are going to need to run out and grab a memory card, just so they can save their game, but by the time the core comes out at $199.99, the cheaper memory card will probably be $19.99, so that isn't too bad, just to get up and running. Then they can add things as they go along.


Actually, after listening to that podcast again, they did say that they would "EVENTUALLY" get the core to $150, after a few price drops. So it's very possible that they won't drop all the way to $199 this Xmas, but I think if they try to do it in small increments, they aren't going to see the big sales surge that they would like to. If they drop it to say $249.99, I don't think that's going to make a huge difference. $199 would make a huge freaking difference. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[slip81]

I don't know, dropping the core to even 250 would probably make a big difference, assuming the Wii is still at 250 when they do it.

Like others have said, a big part of the Wii success is the lower price, I would think that with a 360 at 250 consumers faced with the decision would probably pick up the console with the better graphihcs/more hyped games/upgradability etc.

Though now, even though I thought it would never happen, I'm starting to think the PS will eventually dominate everything again.

I had a 360, ultimately didn't like it and sold it. Now GTA is coming up and I want a next gen system again, this time though I'll probably wait a little longer and go for a PS3.

It's the most powerfull, has the most extras, and at this point has the furthest to go in terms of developing. I personally hate the idea installing games, and would never want to do it on a colsole untill HDD's match the size and price of their PC counterparts, which probably won't happen for a long while.

Plus, even though I'm sure I'll catch flack for this, Blu-Ray will probably win thanks to the PS3. Yeah it's exspensive and the PS3 hasn't sold that well, but I'm sure it's sold better than stand alone HD-DVD players and the 360 addon.

[djsquarewave]

Are developers really using all the space on the current dvd format now? What game now has the dvd at the limit was it Gears that was one disc.
Blue Dragon is three or four discs, I believe. Mostly FMVs, though.

[Anthony1]

I don't know, dropping the core to even 250 would probably make a big difference, assuming the Wii is still at 250 when they do it.


Had Microsoft dropped the price of the core to $250 last October, I would have agreed with you. I think it was a big mistake that they didn't. But now, in 2007, I think dropping it by 50 bucks really wouldn't be that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. I mean is 50 bucks really that big of a motivator? I think if $50 was the difference between buying a system and not buying it, the person would cough up the extra $50 if they really wanted it. But you drop the price a full $100, and that's when things happen. Doesn't anybody remember when Microsoft dropped the price of the first Xbox? It launched in November 2001 for $299.99 and they dropped the price by $100 less than 7 months later. Here we are 17 months after the release of the Xbox 360, and there hasn't been any word whatsoever of a Xbox 360 price drop.



Yeah it's exspensive and the PS3 hasn't sold that well, but I'm sure it's sold better than stand alone HD-DVD players and the 360 addon.

True. PS3 sales are greater than HD-DVD stand alone and 360 add on sales combined, but... there isn't any guarantee at all that people that are buying PS3's are buying Blu Ray movies. While every person that is buying a HD-DVD drive is definitely buying it for that purpose. Also, if you compare sales for standalone players, HD-DVD stand alones are outselling Blu Ray standalones like 5 to 1.

[jajaja]

Are developers really using all the space on the current dvd format now? What game now has the dvd at the limit was it Gears that was one disc.

Gears of War is close to the 8.4GB limit ye. God of War 2 is also pretty close (like 8GB).

[Nature Boy]

It would be foolish to think that Sony isn't going to drop the price of the PS3 this Xmas.

I don't know. Let's look at last gen's first price drop:

May of 2002. Almost 19 months after the PS2 launched. And only 6 months or so after the Cube and Xbox launched. Nintendo started it didn't they, as they could afford it from a cost perspective (or so I've been led to believe) and they needed the boost in market share.

I can definitely see MS dropping the price of a 360 Core this fall, just because they've been out for awhile, they have the Elite to offer.

The Wii I don't see dropping if the demand stays where it is.

The PS3 I can see staying at it's current price point, as it is still a cheap Blu-Ray option, and they can market it as such. Even with a price drop how much cheaper would it be to buy an Elite and the HD-DVD player over a 360 anyway?

[sabre2922]

Back to the topic at hand.

I do believe in the long run that the current DVD format for the 360 could POSSIBLY result in a few restrictions in the latter half of the next-gen consoles lifespan.

Second I luv Rockstar games but NOT because of GTA but for games like Manhunt and the WARRIORS they are a one of a kind game developer/publisher that make incredible adult videogames.

Now if Rockstar wants to start dropping hints at favoring the PS3 and the Xbox360 ALREADY then they are really mislead in what the reality of the current gen race is.
The 360 version of GTA4 will sell faaaar more on 360 than the PS3 just with the facts of overall console sells. I wonder if Rockstar even wants to look at the REAL sales numbers of the PS3 since they do favor Sony and the Playstation brand to a fault just like many other popular publishers and developers.

I have a suggestion for all the bigwigs over at Rockstar if they want to see TRUE reality: simply walk over to the nearest wallmart or whatever megastore-that-sells-videogames-along-with-toiletpaper-outlet and check the shelves for the next-gen game consoles= SURPRISE! your preciouissssssss PS3s are collecting dust while the Wii is mostly sold out and the Xbox360, DS(s?) and PS2s are in constant rotation.

It will be a LOOOONG time before the PS3 even attempts to be a mass market console MUCH longer than it took the PS2 or even Xbox1 to reach mass market status and Rockstar among many other former PS2 devotees will have a reality check real damn quick if they dont realize this VERY SOON and YES the PS2 was already a mass market machine at the $199.00 price point.

[jajaja]

I have a suggestion for all the bigwigs over at Rockstar if they want to see TRUE reality: simply walk over to the nearest wallmart or whatever megastore-that-sells-videogames-along-with-toiletpaper-outlet and check the shelves for the next-gen game consoles= SURPRISE! your preciouissssssss PS3s are collecting dust while the Wii is mostly sold out and the Xbox360, DS(s?) and PS2s are in constant rotation.

It will be a LOOOONG time before the PS3 even attempts to be a mass market console MUCH longer than it took the PS2 or even Xbox1 to reach mass market status and Rockstar among many other former PS2 devotees will have a reality check real damn quick if they dont realize this VERY SOON and YES the PS2 was already a mass market machine at the $199.00 price point.

If the developers should ignore the consoles that doesnt sell top notch we would only see games for DS and possibly Wii. DS is selling like crazy and so many own it already, so this must be the ideal platform to make game for, right?

If all developers follow this, how will a system then sell? Sure, you have the 1st party games, but without 3rd party support the system is pretty much doomed. Should the 3rd party developers rely on the 1st party developers to make so many great games that alone will sell 10 million+ units before they start to make games themself?

I hope this will never be real case senario. We gamers would miss out on alot then so i'm glad 3rd party developers takes their chances on new systems even in the begining.

[Rob2600]

Sure, FMV etc. are factors that increases the gamesize much, but bigger worlds = more models = bigger size.

As far as I know, 3D polygon worlds and models are made out of vectors, which take up a very small amount of memory. Textures also take up a small amount of memory. I think what uses up the most memory is digitized speech and music and prerendered video scenes.

That said, has the GTA series ever been known for having superior graphics? Not that I can remember.

[Anthony1]

I don't know. Let's look at last gen's first price drop:

May of 2002. Almost 19 months after the PS2 launched. And only 6 months or so after the Cube and Xbox launched. Nintendo started it didn't they, as they could afford it from a cost perspective (or so I've been led to believe) and they needed the boost in market share.



True, but the PS2 was $299.99, which is very different from $599.99. The lower the price is from the beginning, the longer you can take to lower the price, and the smaller the increment of price drop it can be. Also, sales have alot to do with it. Price drops normally happen when sales stagnate to a degree. The PS2 was selling well at it's introductory price and had no need to drop the price, and only did so when they felt the time was right. They could take their sweet time with it. Much like Microsoft is doing now. Sony, unfortunately, can't take their sweet time with it. Their sales are very dissapointing in North America, and they aren't going to have any system selling software till at least September, and that means their sales will likely be lackluster till then. They defintely don't want to drop the price, but at the same time, they can't afford to get too far behind, and could be forced into it as a last hope desperate measure.

[gepeto]

I was watching g4tv and they said a report came today that says sony's ps3 machine still cost 800.00 to make including the 40.00 assembly. I forgot the 360.00 cost but it's assembly was 6.00. That being said I don't see sonys ego selling the system for 400.00 unless the titanic was sinking or they planned to ditch the product.

If I was the boss at sonys what would I do? Talk about jam. Do you sell 1 million at 400.00 and be 400 million in the hole or do you tow the line. If I know xbox there won't be a price drop anytime soon. Why should they. The core will stay 299.99 maybe 249.99 in a few years.

The xbox rarely had price drops they held firm until the end I see no difference now.

[sabre2922]

If the developers should ignore the consoles that doesnt sell top notch we would only see games for DS and possibly Wii. DS is selling like crazy and so many own it already, so this must be the ideal platform to make game for, right?

If all developers follow this, how will a system then sell? Sure, you have the 1st party games, but without 3rd party support the system is pretty much doomed. Should the 3rd party developers rely on the 1st party developers to make so many great games that alone will sell 10 million+ units before they start to make games themself?

I hope this will never be real case senario. We gamers would miss out on alot then so i'm glad 3rd party developers takes their chances on new systems even in the begining.

Agreed

wish that was the case with the Dreamcast.


My point was not as clear as I intended.

I was simply stating that Rockstar favors Sony and the Playstation brand and always have.
So yes I do believe that Rockstar simply wants to rag on the 360 without looking too biased to the PS3 ....or something of that nature.

[Anthony1]

The xbox rarely had price drops they held firm until the end I see no difference now.


The Xbox came out in mid November 2001 for $299.99 and then dropped the price a full $100 in May 2002!

[djsquarewave]

Textures also take up a small amount of memory.
Apart from streaming data like music and prerendered cutscenes, textures are easily the largest chunk of data on just about any game disc you'll find these days. This balance will only be offset more as higher resolutions and greater video memory become standard.

There's a reason you can buy video cards with half a gig or more of video memory.

[gepeto]

The Xbox came out in mid November 2001 for $299.99 and then dropped the price a full $100 in May 2002!

Well they never led the charge they matched and when the ps2 msrp went from 149.99 to 129.99 to they didn't go. This would all be a mute point if they would have included a dvd player instead of blue ray.

It's funny the more things change the more they remain the same. The cartridge format killed the n64 out the gate will blue ray do the same. Was blue ray added for us the consumer or to push the format to total domination and be the successor to dvd.

[Nature Boy]

True, but the PS2 was $299.99, which is very different from $599.99. The lower the price is from the beginning, the longer you can take to lower the price, and the smaller the increment of price drop it can be.

About $300 different according to my math.

The 3DO, which was $699, dropped to $499 after a year or so. Which is a $200 drop.

By your math, that implies Sony's price drop would be less than $200. I can't see them dropping it less than $200, but I am starting to come around to the idea that they might drop their prices this fall in order to compete with the 360 Core system (which I think too many people here discount because pretty much everybody that visits these forums would never buy something like the Core system (read all the posts about people thinking of or actually trading up to Elite's if you have doubts)).

[scooterb23]

At what point did this go from a thread talking about GTA IV...to ANOTHER thread about when / if the 360 will drop price?

FOCUS PEOPLE...FOCUS!!!

[jajaja]

I was simply stating that Rockstar favors Sony and the Playstation brand and always have.
So yes I do believe that Rockstar simply wants to rag on the 360 without looking too biased to the PS3 ....or something of that nature.

Understand what you mean now. I dunno.. they do have some valid points about 360 tho, no standard HDD sux for the developers. They must (well.. maybe "must" is more right to say) adapt their games so every SKU can play them. If they want to make the games identical it might mean that they cant take much advantage of the PS3 HDD.

[nate1749]

Most 360 games are already maxing out or coming very close to using an entire disc. I wouldn't be surprised if some developers have already cut down stuff so that it'd all fit on a single dvd-9. I just think there will be multi-disc games popping up, that's all. Not the end of the world and it's been done plenty of times in the past.

Nate

[djsquarewave]

Most 360 games are already maxing out or coming very close to using an entire disc. I wouldn't be surprised if some developers have already cut down stuff so that it'd all fit on a single dvd-9. I just think there will be multi-disc games popping up, that's all. Not the end of the world and it's been done plenty of times in the past.
As I said earlier, there's already a multi-disc game on the 360: Blue Dragon.

But regardless, when you have a single game taking up nine gigabytes or more, there's probably things in there that can be justifiably removed. A lot of games nowadays could do with some pruning, really...

[Anthony1]

At what point did this go from a thread talking about GTA IV...to ANOTHER thread about when / if the 360 will drop price?

FOCUS PEOPLE...FOCUS!!!

Actually the thread was really about whether or not the fact that Microsoft has a Xbox 360 that doesn't have a hard drive built in is hurting the development of multiplatform games for the PS3. GTA IV being one of them. So the Core system for the 360 is a very big part of that, and I argued that Microsoft has it's reasons for having the core system, and the reason is to have a very low cost alternative for those interested in going Next-Gen without going broke. On one hand, yes the Core is hurting things in a way, because games will be programed for the lowest common denominator, but at the same time, the Core is key to Microsoft winning this console war, and they are willing to live with it. So they are a bit related.