Mainstream gamers friend or foe?

[sabre2922]

I have a friend that is THE definition of mainstream gaming.

-the only games he talks about are Gears of War and Halo and of course sports games AND he thinks Tony Hawks project 8 is "like the best skating game ever"

He is 21 years old and started out on Genesis,N64 and Playstation.

The thing that bothers me is that I was playing RE4 on PS2 and tried to show him the cool extras and was telling him about the Wii edition that would have the better graphics with the PS2 extras the new controls etc.
anyway he looks at the game for about 5 seconds and says oh that game is too slow for me and adds THE WII IS FOR KIDS and that it has "no good games because Xbox has Halo and Gears of War " I could go on but im sure my point is clear.

Now the only system he plays is his Xbox360 and mostly guitar hero 2 ALL THE TIME.

Dont get me wrong Im not trying to come across an the elite gamer type or anything like that I was just curious as too how many fellow DPers also had friends or relatives like this?

You know the ones that cant see past the Maddens/GTAs/Halos and thinks that everything else "sucks".

Do mainstream gamers get on your nerves ? or do you just ignore them? do you bother trying to show them that there are many more fun and innovatibe games out there that they might enjoy and think outside of the box? or is it better to leave them in their little boxes safe and sound?

[Richter Belmount]

I despise them , not the fact im considered elite or above them. But game design has become so centered around mainstream gamers , that less traditional games are being made.

My example of a traditional game is dragon warrior 8, which seems to be centered around hardcore or everyday gamers .

A nontraditional game is splinter cell double agent which seems to be centered around mainstream gamers.

[p_b]

I know some people like your friend, and sometimes I'd just like to punch their faces for sheer stupidity. But then again, it's the mainstream which keeps the market so big, and a bigger market is better for us all. I'd rather have them rant about Halo and Fifa 12468 than not buying and playing games at all...

[Snapple]

Your friend isn't a mainstream gamer. He's just an idiot.

[evil_genius]

Doesn't really bother me. I have friends like that and I get them to download demos for games like boom boom rocket and viva pinata. I am converting them slowly.

[sabre2922]

Your friend isn't a mainstream gamer. He's just an idiot.

hmmm i must regretfully agree

whats worse is that we are renting a house so im stuck listening to guitar hero 2 70% of the time.

most of my friends wont even look at ICO or Shadow of the Colossus when I try to show them something different and I think more interesting than Madden 2000008.

Its just painful to be a real gamer sometimes hardcore/retro or whatever.
oh yea I dont care how that comes across I apologize for nothing.


......is it safe?

[Icarus Moonsight]

When I was in high school I knew a guy alot like your friend. I was reading a game mag before shop class started and he started talking games with me. Didn't take me long to realize his tastes were rather superficial (mainstream) after hearing Madden uttered for the 10th time in two minutes. My current digs, at the time, was Virtua Fighter so I wanted to talk about fighting games but, wasn't sure how to make a segway into it. Then an epiphany... Mortal Kombat. So we talked MK for a bit (he played and liked it) then I asked him if he tried any of the new 3D fighting games. Turns out he had not. From this short conversation I knew he didn't have a Saturn (killed my VF buzz) but, I knew he owned a Playstation (Madden, Tomb Raider etc.) so I suggested he try Tekken. Later on, he became a Tekken nut. Even organized a tournament once. :o

It's all in the approach I guess. The two factors being how they are being approached and how receptive they are to it. As long as your not snobbish about it and they are not complete numbskulls you should be able to find some common ground. After all, we didn't start out life as gamers did we?

[Hawksmoor]

I used to absolutely loathe mainstream gamers, most often when I was in a store and had to listen to one yammer on and on about some overhyped, crappy game or simply spout off utterly false nonsense.

However, as p_b pointed out, gaming's transition from niche hobby to mainstream entertainment option has ensured the medium's longterm survival. Ultimately, that's in the best interest of all gamers.

It's unfortunate that these people and their narrowminded notions of what good games are largely dictate what new games are made, but given the amount of time, money, and other resources developers and publishers have to invest these days it's understandable that they're wary to take risks and would prefer to adhere to some prior tried and true formula.

Also, I think the same really holds true for all forms of media and entertainment. 99% of books, tv shows, and movies are garbage IMHO, and games are no different. I think a lot of us are fortunate insofar as we can distinguish between the quality and the crap and invest our time and money accordingly.

[Push Upstairs]

There are extremes at both ends of the spectrum:

Mainstream "Madden" fans

Ultra hard-core "elite gamers"

Neither one is any more tolerable than the other, but I tend to ignore both.

I'm not going to argue why there are better games than "Madden '08" and I'm not going to waste energy justifying playing "Burnout 3" to some "Elite of elite" gamer.

[Fuyukaze]

I know people like that and am even related to people like that. The thing is, people aproach gaming in different ways. There's always the people that are only interested in the most popular games. There's also people that are interested in niche titles like Animal Crossing, Harvest Moon, and Tetris, and only those titles. Do I think that makes them hard core gamers? No! Do I think that makes them any less a gamer? Not realy. I figure if you play games, reguardless of genre enough to become hooked to the point you keep coming back to it, your a gamer.

That said, I think your friend's an idiot, but that's more a personal opinion then anything. If he likes fast paced games, maybe you should introduce him to more action related games like God of War or such. Maybe even some racing games are in order? Either he'll come around to seeing the finer points of gaming, or he'll grow out of it.

Either way, continue playing what "you" want as you should disreguard what others say you should be playing. If you allow the opinions of others to control your interests in titles you play, I'd say that defines a mainstream gamer.

[Kejoriv]

There are extremes at both ends of the spectrum:

Mainstream "Madden" fans

Ultra hard-core "elite gamers"

Neither one is any more tolerable than the other, but I tend to ignore both.

I'm not going to argue why there are better games than "Madden '08" and I'm not going to waste energy justifying playing "Burnout 3" to some "Elite of elite" gamer.


Well said. Agreed.

[Nebagram]

I know a couple of people like that, and in general, I'm more on the side of 'pity' than 'despise'. I always try to identify one 'obscure' game on their chosen system to try to convert them. Case in point: my mate has a PSP he uses mainly for Madden and UMD movies. Hmm- whilst Loco Roco might be a step too far (he doesn't even own a GTA title for it), this is the same guy I frequently had some pretty heavy-duty Dreamcast sessions with back in '00/'01. Easy solution: Power Stone Collection. Broaden the horizons a little in ways he'll be able to cope with. Then chuck in some Lumines for good measure. :)

[heybtbm]

I have a friend

He is 21 years old

...didn't really have to read the rest of the post.

[Gabriel]

It's really no different from people who play nothing but Zelda and "niche game that no one in the world really gives a damn about #386" and then they bitch about Halo and Madden.

I'm one of those people who says Halo isn't a very good game, and I'd rather play just about anything than any post 1993 football game. But something to keep in mind is how the "hardcore" gamers are just as bad. The non-mainstream probably likes even more games that are just plain crappy.

[Oobgarm]

Everyone enjoys things in their own way. I wouldn't consider them friend nor foe, but as a peer.

We all enjoy games, and the advances made by the '-core' segment to expose the rich innovation of the hobby to those less inclined to seek it out on their own helps broaden horizons. Some will get it, some won't. But as long as they're having fun, all is good in my eyes.

I may poke fun at them, much like others do, but can guarantee you that they're doing the same to us. Even trade.


Either way, continue playing what "you" want as you should disreguard what others say you should be playing. If you allow the opinions of others to control your interests in titles you play, I'd say that defines a mainstream gamer.

Absolutely.

[Griking]

But then again, it's the mainstream which keeps the market so big, and a bigger market is better for us all.

I can't say I agree with that. Mainstream gamers is what keeps the industry pigeonholed. Honestly I routinely found more games that I enjoyed playing back when the Apple II was big and developers basically designed games they liked and didn't have to worry about selling millions of copies to break even.

[mailman187666]

my friends are either into whatever games are good, or not into games at all. ALL of my friends, however, play Samurai Shodown 2 and Metal Slug 2 cuz I got the MVS in the basement for when we have drunk nights. Then they'll play whatever has moving colors to stare at. But really I only have a couple friends who are really into games, and those ones play both mainstream and non-mainstream games....whatever they think is fun.

[Nature Boy]

Yes, I have friends whose taste in games differs from mine.

Do I think they're idiots for not sharing my opinions?

Nope. That would make *me* an idiot, no matter how much I might protest and say "I'm not being elitest, but ..."

[Wolfrider31]

This is my theory; I think most of us who've been gaming forever (I picked up my first controller at the age of 3 or 4) had to put up with the "games are for nerds" phase of the industry. Seeing jocks now eating up the hobby we were taunted for being involved in and getting no slack because of it can be really irritating.

But, I have to ask, is the conventional wisdom that casual gamers kill creativity (like mainstream moviegoers do) actually true? Consider the Final Fantasy series. We got three of them. Out of six. Thanks to the mainstream success of the PS a FF that doesn't come to our shores is an absurd notion. And what about games like WarioWare, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Trauma Center, Cooking Mama, Harvest Moon, every RPG ever made, MMOs. Yes, some of these games weren't commercially successful, but explosion in growth of the industry attributable to the mainstream gamer has allowed companies to do things a little more daring, even if it means giving up commercial success.

I mean, I still hate thick-necked frat f*cks who have Halo/Kegger parties in their dorm rooms while playing earth shaking rap music and wearing long gold chains, but they may not be stifling the industry as much as we assume.

[Wolfrider31]

...didn't really have to read the rest of the post.

Hey, I'm 21 years old. :P

[bangtango]

I guess it depends on whether the mainstream gamer is a full-blown fanboy or not. Someone doesn't have to own a Turbo Duo, Commodore 64, Sega Saturn or a bunch of Japanese imports to be considered a "gamer." As long as a person is respectful of competing systems that they may not own or some of the older companies (Sega, SNK, etc.) who have had a long history in the industry then I think they are all right.

I guess you tend to lose a little respect for a person when you have a guy bashing the Sega Saturn without having ever played it or dissing a 2D King of the Fighters game because it "looks old and isn't 3D" or something equally stupid.

I'm sure you all get the idea. That's the sort of thing I take into consideration, not what systems they own or how long they've been playing. It may sound unlikely to a few reading this but you never know when some 21-year old kid who was weaned on PS1/PS2 or XBox may become interested in signing up for a message board and using their buy-sell forum to get a Sega CD, 3DO or even an Atari computer.

[Flack]

The positive: Your friend is spending money on games, supporting consoles and gaming companies. Money from mainstream gamers may keep the console you love afloat.

The negative: Your friend is spending money on mainstream games, instead of helping support some of the more creative (and less lucrative) companies.

The neutral: Eh. Who cares what he plays. Doesn't affect the way you, I, or anyone else plays. Live and let live.

[RetroYoungen]

Casual gamers... ehh. I work in a store that sells a fair amount of games, and I've been asked by a lot of people about good games for their kids/friends/parents (and yes, they've asked for parents) to play. I show them titles like Beyond Good & Evil, or Shadow of the Colossus, or Gitaroo Man, and all I get back are blank stares and "why the hell would anyone play that?"

I figure I'll just play what I like, let everyone else play what they want, and just let it go when someone tries to tell me this game is better than that one simple because it's "prettier" or for some other aesthetic, superficial reason.

And by the way, I might not be 21, but I AM 22. Not all of us are the casual idiot gamer; some take some resentment to statements like that. :-P

[Kid Ice]

These "mainstream" gamers are the ones who put $2 Dreamcast games on the curb at yard sales. They put PSX longboxes on ebay with $5 BINs. They buy full price day-of-release games and trade them in a week later. They eat up Maddens and Tony Hawks, and leave Viewtiful Joes and Icos for the bargain bins. Their idea of collecting is to buy your Final Fantasy 7 for $80.

God bless the mainstream gamers. These people are our food.

[mregashu]

I actually am bugged much more by gamers who refuse to believe a game like Madden can actually be good. Seriously, is there a single game in the Madden series that is under 8.0 on gamerankings? I understand game snobbery. Hell, I partake in it from time to time. But it's naive to be a snob towards a game that is consistently considered the best football game ever made.

If it's the football part, or sports games in general that you hate, so be it. But remember that over 90,000 people cram Notre Dame stadium every Saturday in October, and that doesn't leave many people in the greater South Bend area to attend Medieval festivals or sci-fi conventions. Madden sells better than a game like Morrowind not because people are a bunch of beer-swilling morons who can't comprehend the complexity and beauty of a well crafted RPG - it's because more people like quarterbacks than orcs.

Now, if you want your Madden loving friends to try something like Ico, or Animal Crossing, approach them without disdain, say you've got a cool game for them to try, but DON'T explain why this is a good game and his games are crap. Heck, maybe even compromise and try a game of Madden before breaking out Radiant Silvergun. If you aren't willing to do that, why should your friend be willing to try yours? Remember, everyone's favorite part of the Oreo is the middleground. Come to it.

[bangtango]

I actually am bugged much more by gamers who refuse to believe a game like Madden can actually be good. Seriously, is there a single game in the Madden series that is under 8.0 on gamerankings? I understand game snobbery. Hell, I partake in it from time to time. But it's naive to be a snob towards a game that is consistently considered the best football game ever made.

If it's the football part, or sports games in general that you hate, so be it. But remember that over 90,000 people cram Notre Dame stadium every Saturday in October, and that doesn't leave many people in the greater South Bend area to attend Medieval festivals or sci-fi conventions. Madden sells better than a game like Morrowind not because people are a bunch of beer-swilling morons who can't comprehend the complexity and beauty of a well crafted RPG - it's because more people like quarterbacks than orcs.

Now, if you want your Madden loving friends to try something like Ico, or Animal Crossing, approach them without disdain, say you've got a cool game for them to try, but DON'T explain why this is a good game and his games are crap. Heck, maybe even compromise and try a game of Madden before breaking out Radiant Silvergun. If you aren't willing to do that, why should your friend be willing to try yours? Remember, everyone's favorite part of the Oreo is the middleground. Come to it.

I'll pitch in and defend the Madden games a little.

I like both Madden titles and niche stuff so I fit into both categories. I'm a huge numbers and stats junkie so I love old and new sports games that let you play a season (or multiple seasons) and keep track of lots of obscure stats.

Dammit, I'll just come right out and admit it. Tracking the yardage per carry for my second string fullback on the 2002Carolina Panthers (or any other random team) interests me more than "learning" to "play" Freebird through my tv or screwing with obscure dating sims (despite being obsessed with yards-per-carry for backups on 5 year old football lineups, I can still get real dates).

I'm the guy who is always 2-4 years behind on the sports games people start threads for on this forum. Considering Madden 04 and Madden 05 on XBox now run the same price as a 15 year old Genesis sports game, I feed on those shitty sports games that people ridicule. Not bad getting games that are somewhat recent for 99 cents. Gamestop has so many friggin' copies of the EA and 2K games that it is impossible to NOT find a complete version and even if you get a bum disc from a clerk, it isn't a big investment to "replace" it.

So those mainstream gamers who dump those sports games as if they were a pet food recall, they help save me a lot of money by flooding the market with used games and driving the price down on titles I might have to pay more for otherwise. Of course, I have 2K and EA to thank for updating those every year but people still have to trade them in.

But yeah, I like plenty of lesser known stuff just like anybody else. So I get the best of both worlds.

[Icarus Moonsight]

I actually am bugged much more by gamers who refuse to believe a game like Madden can actually be good. Seriously, is there a single game in the Madden series that is under 8.0 on gamerankings? I understand game snobbery. Hell, I partake in it from time to time. But it's naive to be a snob towards a game that is consistently considered the best football game ever made.

Some would argue that Tecmo Bowl is the best football game ever made. Again, we land back in opinion-land. I have a hard time seeing how a yearly release of a franchise just for updated rosters/stats and minor gameplay tweeks to be superior over last years installment. Sometimes, such as the case with Madden 07 on 360, the franchise actually takes a backslide. Ouch!

The problem with sports games is for each sport there is the pinnacle game/version for that sport and it varys by person and taste. I love NHL 94 on Genny to this day. It got everything right, as hockey goes. Every hockey title I've played since (barring some quirkiness that makes the game more arcadey, ie Mutant League Hockey) has been inferior. It takes alot more than a yearly increment of a series to make a good game. You listening Capcom? *cough*MegaMan*cough* lol To each, his own. :)

@KidIce: *looking at a copy of FF7 on my shelf* MUST FEEEEED!!! Hungry... Itchy.... Tasteyyyy....

[JPeeples]

Mainstream gamers don't bother me, narrow-minded gamers do, however.

[Gentlegamer]

Re: Madden and Tecmo Bowl

Months ago, I picked up Madden 2005 for Xbox (for like $2.00). I recently put it in to give it a try . . . I'm fricken lost! It seems very complicated! After browsing the manual I realized that there are a lot of cool options for offense and defense that come right out of the NFL, so I look forward to mastering them and being able to play a real game.

The last football game I ever played was Super Tecmo Bowl II on the SNES. The arcade-like play didn't prepare me for the "sophistication" in modern football games. I still love Tecmo Bowl, but I look forward to learning how to use all the options in the modern games. However, I will never buy a new copy of any Madden game . . . just wait a few months and it's super cheap at GameStop! Playing "older" seasons doesn't bother me at all.

[Daltone]

I'm curious - why does no one ever bash JRPGs for barely changing over the years? Surely in a post FFVII world they must be considered fairly mainstream by now?

Sure sports sims are churned out every year with minor tweaks, but at the end of the day there's only so much innovation you can put in there. If you like the genre it's fine. Thinking everything else sucks is a bit silly, but luckily I don't have to play the same games as you. Money is going into the industry, games will evolve. In addition, the more 'mainstream' gamers, as you call them, the more people who are likely to one day dabble in non-mainstream games. If that makes any sense.

I sort of look at it this way - loads of people go to see summer blockbusters each year, but smaller independant films aren't dead.

[mregashu]

You're right about jrpgs, Daltone. I've actually made that point before as well. Personally, I see it as a roster update (different quarterback or different whiny, spiky haired hero) and a few gameplay tweaks ("new hit stick control!" or "a change in the battle system!"). Of course, in a new rpg you have a new story, so that is big. But I would argue that a new sports season is like an unfolding story...

As to Tecmo Super Bowl being the best football game of all time - I love Tecmo Bowl, but I'd say that comparison is like saying that Gran Turismo is the best racing game ever, and someone else saying it's Mario Kart. Apples and oranges.

[bangtango]

Some would argue that Tecmo Bowl is the best football game ever made. Again, we land back in opinion-land. I have a hard time seeing how a yearly release of a franchise just for updated rosters/stats and minor gameplay tweeks to be superior over last years installment. Sometimes, such as the case with Madden 07 on 360, the franchise actually takes a backslide. Ouch!

Sure, some editions are bad. Honestly, EA doesn't have much choice. You can do a patch or update online but what about people who might want a legitimate disc, manual and case? Then comes the question of what graphics and gameplay engine you use if there are already 2-3 years of Madden games released on a specific system. You can't use the most recent and assume everyone will like it and the features. Sure, that stuff could be tweaked in options but honestly, releasing an all new version each year saves more headaches than it creates. At least then people can pick and choose what year(s) are their absolute favorites. Just my opinion, I'm not saying I am right.

Just like in the old days, EA could have done smaller update cartridges for a lower cost but as I asked above what graphics and gameplay engine do they use?