Not responsible for lost packages - does not protect you

[veronica_marsfan]

Let's try a thought experiment:

- I buy a game from you.
- You ship it to me, and for whatever reason I never get it.
- I call my Visa card and tell them, "I was charged $20 for a game I never got."

What do you think will happen next?



Answer:
- Visa reverses the $20 charge.
- Paypal asks seller (you) for proof of delivery.
- You have delivery confirmation, [and the seller typed the DC number into paypal as "proof of shipment"], but because the post office lost it & never delivered the item, the DC shows no record of delivery.
- Paypal sucks $20 out of your account & refunds it back to Visa.


You lost 20 bucks. It doesn't matter if you say, "Not responsible for lost packages." Neither Paypal nor my Visa card will care. It sucks for us sellers, but that's how it works.

[XianXi]

Are you using Paypal shipping or providing Paypal with a DC#?

[veronica_marsfan]

Answer:
- Visa reverses the $20 charge.
- Paypal asks seller (you) for proof of delivery.
- You have delivery confirmation, but because the post office lost it & never delivered the item, the DC show no record of delivery.
- Paypal sucks $20 out of your account & refunds it back to Visa.

[XianXi]

Answer:
- Visa reverses the $20 charge.
- Paypal asks seller (you) for proof of delivery.
- You have delivery confirmation, but because the post office lost it & never delivered the item, the DC show "undelivered".
- Paypal sucks $20 out of your account & refunds it back to Visa.

That still doesnt answer my question, reread it.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I think veronica_marsfan is trying to prove a hypothetical point or something.

If the package says "undelivered", then why would Paypal take the money from your account? There's proof that it was sent, even if it was never delivered.

[XianXi]

I think veronica_marsfan is trying to prove a hypothetical point or something.

If the package says "undelivered", then why would Paypal take the money from your account? There's proof that it was sent, even if it was never delivered.

Not it doesnt. There are many variables in this case. If you used paypal shipping and the post office never did an acceptance scan it looks as if you never sent the package regardless of having the assigned DC#. Meaning you're responsible.

If you shipped it in person and have a scanned receipt that it was sent along with a DC# it is better proof to paypal.

Also karma if you overcharge shipping to your customers for everythng you should be paying for.

Plus I've never seen an "Undelivered" response from the website when checking a DC#. Please do a screenshot of it.

[veronica_marsfan]

Neither have I. Please pardon my sloppiness. I corrected the first message.

Yes the seller typed the DC number into paypal as "proof", but because the DC shows the package was never delivered, paypal will refund the money to the buyer's Visa Credit card.

If the package says "undelivered", then why would Paypal take the money from your account? There's proof that it was sent, even if it was never delivered.This is not a hypothetical.
- U.S. Law requires the seller deliver the package.
- If the seller never did that, U.S. Law requires a refund.
- Paypal (and Visa) follow U.S. law.



Perhaps instead of a fake case, I should cite my own experience:
- I bought Final Fantasy 12
- Seller shipped it via paypal shipping (as shown in my transaction page)
- It never arrived
- I filed claim and seller proceeded to have a hissy fit with lots of nasty emails saying, "I shipped this item! And you know it! I have proof I shipped it! I don't owe you anything!"
-
- Well I checked the delivery confirmation number in my transaction page, and all it said was "we have received notice of a shipment....." blah blah blah. No indication that it was ever delivered to any home. So I happily got my $35 back.

Buyers are not required to
pay for items they never receive.
This is common sense.
(Also U.S. law.)

[XianXi]

I've only lost one package but it was insured so there was no problem. I always push buyers to get insurance.

[veronica_marsfan]

I never buy insurance.

There's no need when I have Paypal, my Visa card, and U.S. Law backing me. Sellers are required to delivery the item in working order.

If they don't, I get a refund; it's mandatory.

[XianXi]

I never buy insurance.

There's no need when I have Paypal, my Visa card, and U.S. Law backing me. Sellers are required to delivery the item in working order.

If they don't I get a refund; it's mandatory.

Not if its sold AS IS though but most sellers dont put AS IS in the first 2 sentences so it usually doesnt count. I dont do it either but I know about the paypal rule. weird.

[Kitsune Sniper]

- Well I checked the delivery confirmation number in my transaction page, and all it said was "we have received notice of a shipment....." blah blah blah. No indication that it was ever delivered to any home. So I happily got my $35 back.

Well, that's because the seller used electronic shipping. If you use that (like Paypal shipping) there won't be a record of it getting shipped, but if you're like me and use the normal DC labels, there's a record of the date, time and location where it was shipped from, even if it was not delivered.

[veronica_marsfan]

Uh huh.

You'll see. One of these days a package will disappear, you'll say to Paypal, "I have proof it was shipped with my US Postal Receipt, plus delivery confirmation."

And paypal will look at that and say, "Not good enough" and refund the money to your buyer.



And if it's a Visa/Mastercard chargeback, the results will be slightly-different but basically the same. A forced refund to the buyer.

They are enforcing U.S. Law which states a buyer MUST receive the item, and if the buyer does not, then it is the seller's responsibility to refund the cost (even if the fault lies with the shipper).

[Porksta]

I have seen "Undeliverable" before with some other traders. I forget what does it though.

[bunnyboy]

If you shipped it in person and have a scanned receipt that it was sent along with a DC# it is better proof to paypal.

I have been nailed by this before, the physical USPS receipt is useless because it does not show the full address the package was sent to. Even when I had a photograph of the Global Priority flat rate envelope with the serial number matching the receipt but PayPal would not accept it. After many weeks of emails PayPal finally agreed that the receipt means nothing.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I have been nailed by this before, the physical USPS receipt is useless because it does not show the full address the package was sent to. Even when I had a photograph of the Global Priority flat rate envelope with the serial number matching the receipt but PayPal would not accept it. After many weeks of emails PayPal finally agreed that the receipt means nothing.

Uh, but if you have the receipt and the delivery confirmation receipt? The one where you write down the address you shipped the item to?

[veronica_marsfan]

Uh, but if you have the receipt and the delivery confirmation receipt? The one where you write down the address you shipped the item to?

U.S. Law requires the item to be DELIVERED. Not shipped. Delivered.

If you can not prove the item was delivered, you're in violation of the law.

[Buyatari]

You guys are acting as if this is new.


If you don't have proof the buyer got the package you are out the money. CC or no CC you are out if the buyer doesn't get it if you use paypal.

Been like this for some time.

[ryborg]

What veronica_marsfan is saying is correct, but that doesn't mean that it's likely to happen. I've been stung by the un-scanned DC "never received item" example mentioned above exactly once out of ~10,000+ packages sent since Paypal opened.

Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe that's the actual rate it happens. Either way, when you buy or sell something online, you are taking a very minor risk. As a buyer, the item may not arrive and the seller may be covered, or as a seller, you may have done your job, but the item did not arrive and you are screwed. That is the potential price of convenience and one that I'm always willing to accept.

If you're unwilling to accept that minor risk, do what I tell potential customers who are psychotically nervous about their package not arriving -- buy your items from an actual store.

[Felixthegamer]

You got your money back, what's the big deal? Lost packages suck, but it does happen from time to time. The fault may be with your mail man. We never had a lost package until we moved. We live in the same city with the same post office, but new mail man. He does not know how to leave a package nor a notice and two packages are missing because of it.

[veronica_marsfan]

You got your money back, what's the big deal?

This thread was opened in response to _______ (a seller) who falsely claims, "If you do not buy insurance Veronica, I am not responsible for a lost or damaged item." I wanted to set the record straight.

[RugalSizzler]

veronica_marsfan has bee constantly Marge Simpson Nagging me on my shipping methods constantly messaging me ( three times ) about I need to put insurance on my item everytime.

The thing is some people lie and be theives about the item they received and try to use paypal to get back there money and the item.

I say I am not responsible for shipping and offer insurance for ony 1.35 for all items once and with my store items I allways put delivery comformation on the item.

Generally once the item leaves my hands it is no longer my item. It is the USPS dutie to deliver the item not my dutie. I am not the person who is going to drive 1000 of miles to get the item to you. They are. If you are afraid of the mail being lost then I suggest putting the insurance.

Sometimes I put insurance when I order certain items or if it is offered ( even when the sender does not really put insurance on the item ) just to be safe.

The police is not going to come to your door and tell you to have over the less then 20 dollars you owe nore is a lawayer going to sue you.

You will just have to wait it out and negotiate with the post office if there is no insurance. All insurance does is just allows to buyer to get back there money and nothing more.:shameful:

PAYPAL IS OWNED BUY EBAY. EBAY IS JUST A SERVICE. GET A LIFE ALREADY.
GREAT WE KNOW THE RISKS OF USING PAYPAL.:drinking:

If somebody can't afford the money then hey guess what get a job like I have to lifting rocks at a dock and painting oats with acidtoner or servering the srvants at some dinner place.

It is not a super duper big deal.:dance: :drinking:

[veronica_marsfan]

First off, I mailed you ONCE, not three times. (You then replied. And I replied. And you replied, and so on.)
Generally once the item leaves my hands it is no longer my item. It is the USPS dutie to deliver the item not my dutie. I am not the person who is going to drive 1000 of miles to get the item to you. They are. If you are afraid of the mail being lost then I suggest putting the insurance.

My view is that I don't need insurance. Why? Because my credit card will reverse the funds & take them back from the seller, if seller fails to deliver the item.

So why do I, the buyer, need to buy insurance?
My credit card provides insurance for free,
and it doesn't cost me $1.35.

No buyer should ever need to buy insurance, because insurance is provided for free by Paypal, Visa/Mastercard, and so on.

[XianXi]

First off, I mailed you ONCE, not three times. (You then replied. And I replied. And you replied, and so on.)

My view is that I don't need insurance. Why? Because my credit card will reverse the funds & take them back from the seller, if seller fails to deliver the item.

So why do I, the buyer, need to buy insurance?
My credit card provides insurance for free,
and it doesn't cost me $1.35.

No buyer should ever need to buy insurance, because insurance is provided for free by Paypal, Visa/Mastercard, and so on.

So what if your next packaged is delivered but badly damaged?

[veronica_marsfan]

So what if your next packaged is delivered but badly damaged?
I do what I'm doing now with the damaged hard drive I received:
(1) File with paypal.com describing how item is "signifigantly not as described"

(2) And if that doesn't work, I still have my Discover card to back me up. They'll refund my money, as part of their customer service. (And the funds will be reversed back to the Seller.)

A seller is required *by law* to deliver an item, and an item that works.

[RugalSizzler]

So why do I, the buyer, need to buy insurance?
My credit card provides insurance for free,
and it doesn't cost me $1.35.
:above me:

That is not insurance that is jacking somebodies account for Child Support Marge.:drinking:

That is if the seller never did sent the item and there is no proof of this. If somebody ever did this to me I would go down to the post office find the person at the window I made the transaction with and get them to sign something indicating that I was in fact there and I did send the package. Since I go there oftem people will remember me.:lovin:

It is not insurance Marge unless you put insurance down first.:drinking:

So why do I, the buyer, need to buy insurance?
My credit card provides insurance for free,
and it doesn't cost me $1.35.


(1) File with paypal.com describing how item is "signifigantly not as described"


That means the item is not as described and does not count as insurance. That also means you are going around ebay and directly for the money and not the ebay seller.

Not a form of insurance and is entirely diffrent from the isurance the USPS offers.

[veronica_marsfan]

Did you read my last post about the damaged hard drive? If you were my seller Kitsune you would say, "Well Veronica, you didn't buy insurance, so you're out of luck."

But that's not true. I WILL get a refund for that drive (either from paypal or my credit card). And I didn't buy a single penny insurance from the Ebay seller.

There's no need for a buyer to buy insurance.
A buyer is protected by various agencies,
like credit cards, and also U.S. law.
A buyer doesn't need to buy insurance.

[RugalSizzler]

That is an entirely diffrent dispute where the person must give you back the money since the item was damaged. Not a dispute where the item was shipped to the middle of nowhere.

Of course your going to get your money back as long as you send the item back first of course. You don't need to send it as fast as possible just tell them the truth and send it back.

The post office is not responsible for packaging materials also that is the sellers job to package the item correctly.

Why not give us a link to your current purchase?

[veronica_marsfan]

That is an entirely diffrent dispute where the person must give you back the money since the item was damaged. Not a dispute where the item was shipped to the middle of nowhere.
I don't see a difference (none that matters anyway). In both cases the seller failed to deliver what he advertised. And in both cases, I'm owed a refund (by law).

Any seller who would claim, "I'm not responsible for lost or damaged items," is making a false claim.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Did you read my last post about the damaged hard drive? If you were my seller Kitsune you would say, "Well Veronica, you didn't buy insurance, so you're out of luck."

... hey hey hey KEEP ME OUT OF THIS. O_o I pack my items quite well, thank you. o_O

[veronica_marsfan]

So did this seller.

Unfortunately the postal worker ran over it with his truck. :shameful: When I asked the post office about it, they said, "No insurance; no responsibility."

So thank god for Paypal and Discover Card - they'll get my money back.

[Cornelius]

I'll be interested to know if you do get your money back from paypal, veronica. I'm not sure one way or another what they'll decide for the dispute. Are you going to tell paypal that the item was run over by the post?

If there is no point to insurance paid by a buyer, why does ebay/paypal have an 'insurance required' option, I wonder? Of course, since most buyers go by total cost, that just eats into a seller's profits, but the option is there, and ostensibly paid for by the buyer.

[XianXi]

So did this seller.

Unfortunately the postal worker ran over it with his truck. :shameful: When I asked the post office about it, they said, "No insurance; no responsibility."

So thank god for Paypal and Discover Card - they'll protect me. And if they don't, I will hire a lawyer rather than lose $199.

You'll hire a lawyer rather than lose $199? Do you know how much it costs to hire one?

[veronica_marsfan]

In a shipping transaction there are TWO contracts:

(1) seller-to-buyer wherein the seller promises to deliver an item & in working condition
(2) shipper-to-seller wherein the shipper promises to not destroy/damage/lose the item, in exchange for receiving the seller's dollars. (Note the buyer is not a party to this contract.)

- If a seller fails to deliver a working item, Contract #1 is breached, and the seller owes the buyer a refund. Or face court charges.

- If a shipper (ups, fedex, etcetera) damages the package during transit, Contract #2 is breached. <------ This is what the insurance is for: To protect the SELLER from the postal service's carelessness.



You'll hire a lawyer rather than lose $199? Do you know how much it costs to hire one? I've never done a court case (and hopefully never will), but as I understand it, the lawyer would not only press charges for a $199 refund, but also for reimbursement of all court-induced costs. In other words, the seller would pay ALL my expenses, including my lawyer fees.

There are a number of such cases in the ebay forums, where the buyer won not only a Refund, but also all court expenses covered.



why does ebay/paypal have an 'insurance required' option For the same reason why they offer the option to charge for Shipping (or not). And the option to charge for Taxes (or not). And the option to charge for Escrow or Currency Exchange Fees (or not). It all falls under the same reason.

[Flack]

Although threads like these rarely resolve anything, they sure come in handy when I sit down to edit my "list of people to never do business with."

[badinsults]

Just to let you know, credit card companies do almost nothing to protect merchants. For instance, my roommate was reporting some transactions as being fraud as they were happening. The credit card company would do nothing, and when it was found that they were fraud, he was charged a $10 fee (even though the transaction was less than that). Nothing will change unless there are more government restrictions to protect people. So even though the items were not delivered, the credit card companies couldn't give two shits about you.

[p_b]

Although threads like these rarely resolve anything, they sure come in handy when I sit down to edit my "list of people to never do business with."

Wow, you're in my head! Or you can read my mind...

[ryborg]

Although threads like these rarely resolve anything, they sure come in handy when I sit down to edit my "list of people to never do business with."

Don't forget that they're extremely entertaining to read.

[RugalSizzler]

I don't see a difference (none that matters anyway). In both cases the seller failed to deliver what he advertised. And in both cases, I'm owed a refund (by law).

Any seller who would claim, "I'm not responsible for lost or damaged items," is making a false claim.

Even if you got the item and it was shipped in a bad condition they did do there job of sending you the item just that it was not the way it was mentioned.

That has nothing to do with insurance that has to do with packaging. Also Hard Drives is like record players. They are loose inside and if shooked enough will not work.

Have you even tried to checkout the drive in another program or reformat the drive?

[veronica_marsfan]

Even if you got the item and it was shipped in a bad condition they did do there job of sending you the item just that it was not the way it was mentioned.

No they did not "do their job". MY CONTRACT clearly states a "brand-new fully-operational" drive. Instead, my drive has a smashed chassis. Therefore the seller did not give me what was promised in the contract, and owes me a refund == to what I originally gave him. (And if he doesn't, I can cite U.S. law in front of a judge who WILL rule in my favor, and against the seller.)



The person at fault is the shipper (USPS). They owe the seller a refund of the shipping (~$15), since they failed to properly deliver the item. If the seller purchased insurance, USPS also owes them insurance money.

Two separate contracts.
(1) between the seller and the buyer
(2) between the shipper and the seller

Both were breached. And therefore:
(1) seller owes buyer a refund, since seller failed to meet the terms of contract #1
(2) Shipper (usps) owes the seller a refund on shipping, since the shipper failed to deliver the item in the same condition as when it was mailed (contract #2)

That is how the law works. You may not like it, but that's how it works.

[rik1138]

What most people that use PayPal fail to realize is that this is how credit cards have worked for YEARS. If I order something online from Sears, and they ship out nice new one, and the post office (or shipper) smashes it, Sears _WILL_ give me a refund. Period. If they refuse for some reason, the credit card company will do it for them. Have you ever received an item from a company that was damaged and not expected a refund or replacement item? No.

PayPal is basically making every seller a little company, with the same restrictions for using credit cards as any other company. If you ship something to someone, and it gets smashed in transit, the SELLER is still responsible for making it up to the buyer somehow. For a large corporation, this is just part of operating cost. For me and you selling one or two things for some extra cash, it can eat up 50% or more if your money from that month's Ebay dealings. Thus, we PayPal'ers notice it much more, and get even more annoyed by it... But if you don't understand that this is how credit cards work, then you simply shouldn't accept them (via PayPal or any other method). Or, YOU (the seller) buy shipping insurance to cover your own ass in the case something like this happens (I have insurance, and return receipt on every item I sell. That's the proof that PayPal will accept.)

Unfortunately, people will abuse this and file claims for things they've received. I don't think it happens as often as some people want you to believe (the anti-PayPal cult), but it happens... It's just as frequent as if you send someone a money order, and they just cash it and never send your item. Jerks are out there, that's another 'cost of running a business'. If you don't like that, there's still garage sales... :)

[Buyatari]

The problem is more to do with the post office than anthing else. I am really disapointed with the quality and performance. If this were a private company things wouldn't run this way.

Adam

[RugalSizzler]

The problem has to do with filthy dirty liars who lie there pants off where it is not needed. That is the problem. Dancing dancing danish Scammers basically or anybody who is trying to take advantage of a service the wrong way the fact

THEY the scammers, lazy, no brainers, and greedy scabs , jerking, jacking, flaping off the goverment, :bad-words: think college credits make them a better person, Psychologist, Threapists, doctors, fatty whale of a tale not even elematary school teacher :bad-words:, asking if I take drugs, making me look like a fool in the :bad-words: classroom with half the people I give anything about, suggest I go to the :bad-words: butt doctor and ivestigate my :bad-words: home, make me miss my test and then have the nerve to tell me I am this and :bad-words: that race and :bad-words: throw $70000 down the drain while :bad-words: machinic delays pay :bad-words: fakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk two coming at you just DONT CARE ABOUT THE FINE PRINT

They know it is a trick and people don't get how pryimid schemes work. This is why I say take the 1.35 insurance to cover your hide or pay threw the store site to get random discount.:wink 2:

If the item is broken which I highly doubt. Contact the seller and return the item. Then again if the insurance would have covered the item damage you should not have been buying it in the first place.

Paypal is crap. All you need is trust and respect. Only if you have enough evidence the was really damaged then you can return it. Not oh noessss I don't trust this fella lets go use the almighty M word.

Only one time a item I got was slightly damaged and that was from being tossed around all day at the post office. If you want something delivered on time and not returned use UPS. They will keep redelivering your package and not send it back in the same week.

[Cornelius]

Wow... and that's after editing!

[GizmoGC]

Veronica,

Thanks, I have now added you as someone never to sell to.
However you can file all the claims you want, if I have no money in my Paypal account at the time of you filing, you won't get crap. Call your credit cards all you want, Paypal will not take a dime from me if I have no money in my account.

Can I have your ebay username? I'd like to ban you, Mrs. Sunday Lawyer. A quick search of your posts show you like to be the person that quotes all these laws and such, and I'd just like to make sure you never buy anything from me.

[veronica_marsfan]

if I have no money in my Paypal account at the tme of you filing, you won't get crap. Call your credit cards all you want, Paypal will not take a dime from me if I have no money in my account.
True. If you empty out your account, I can not recover money from you, however I can still do a credit card reversal & get the money from Paypal. (As I did last year when a seller refused to refund $40 for an un-delivered item, so Visa took the $40 directly from Paypal.)

And Paypal will just suspend your account until you pay them back for the credit reversal. And I'll be laughing, because you mailed me a broken item but refused to refund the money, so you got what you deserved - a suspension.

You can NOT ship non-working items to a buyer; doesn't matter who caused the damage; what matters is that YOU the seller violated the contract. You didn't deliver a working item as promised.

[GizmoGC]

True. If you empty out your account, I can not recover money from you, however I can still do a credit card reversal & get the money from Paypal.

And Paypal will just suspend your account until you pay them back for the credit reversal. And I'll be laughing, because you mailed me a broken item but refused to refund the money, so you got what you deserved - a suspension.

You can NOT ship non-working items to a buyer; doesn't matter who caused the damage; what matters is that YOU the seller violated the contract. You didn't deliver a working item as promised.

Incorrect. Its not MY fault if the post office decided to play basketball with the package that has left my hands. That is the Post Offices fault and the reason why Insurance is around. Your just a buyer with way to many issues. As asked before, I'd like your ebay username so I can block you from any of my auctions.

[veronica_marsfan]

Incorrect. Its not MY fault if the post office decided to play basketball with the package that has left my hands. U.S. Law states otherwise.

U.S. Law states you MUST give a refund to a buyer, no matter who caused the damage, because if you don't the Buyer can drag you in front of a judge & the court will order a judgment against you.

I guess it's like speeding.
You can choose to disobey the law,
but eventually the gov't will catch you,
and then you'll be punished.

[Damion]

Ok I need to ask...

what are your sources for all these "laws" you keep bringing up.

and since when is it on the sellers dime when usps/ups/dhl or fed-ex botches the delivery. I always assumed that when I buy something I assume the risk of shipment.

if your mail carrier admittedly backed over your package theres a bigger issue here then your hard drive and you need to contact your local post master general regardless of whos "supposed" to give you back your money.

after reading this I just may go with ups or something usps doesn't feel like a good risk anymore.

[veronica_marsfan]

Court judgments form the basis for the law.

The judges always assume that the seller has formed a contract w/ the buyer, and if the buyer receives a broken item, then the seller has broken that contract.

Thus the judges offer the buyers a refund, payable by the seller.

[lurpak]

So did this seller.

Unfortunately the postal worker ran over it with his truck. :shameful: When I asked the post office about it, they said, "No insurance; no responsibility."

So thank god for Paypal and Discover Card - they'll get my money back.

yes but at the sellers expense, when it was not there fault either, you should take out insurance. It is my opinion that if you do not then any loss or damage is your problem, as the seller has completed his obligation to you the minute he sent the item in the method you have chosen.

paypal have an internal ruling that they require "TRACKED" shipping...proof of delivery is insufficient even !!! and the seller can get scammed.

sellers avoid people like veronica_marsfan by making all buyers pay for tracked delivery with no option but enforced insurance, when they pay with paypal.

[Felixthegamer]

veronica_marsfan
What is your feedback like?

[lurpak]

Veronica,

Thanks, I have now added you as someone never to sell to.
However you can file all the claims you want, if I have no money in my Paypal account at the time of you filing, you won't get crap. Call your credit cards all you want, Paypal will not take a dime from me if I have no money in my account.

Can I have your ebay username? I'd like to ban you, Mrs. Sunday Lawyer. A quick search of your posts show you like to be the person that quotes all these laws and such, and I'd just like to make sure you never buy anything from me.


actualy paypal will put your account into a negative fund, then instruct debt collecting agencies (intrum justica) to harras you for it.
and it hgas just occured to me from the other side of the fence, the buyer who only recieves the ammount possitive in your account gets shafted by paypal too, I wonder if/when the funds are recoivered by the debt collecting agency does the buyer then get paid or does "as I suspect" paypal pocket it ???

example item (im english so Ill use £) £100... sellers acount after withdraw £10... buyer wins claim gets £10, paypal sell debt to debt collecting agency £50eg... does the buyer get this...I DONT THINK SO !

I know something about this because I am currently in communiction with Paypals debt collecting agency for something similar to above ( I sent the item signed for, and with proof of posting...insufficient for paypal..so what they can decide whatever they like is insufficient).

anyway heres what the debt collecting agency who act for paypal got in return (uk laws here, dont know how US is).


Please be advised that I have no intention of paying this unfounded and I believe unlawful debt request.
I advise that the only future correspondence I expect to receive on this matter will be a confirmation that the matter has been settled.

Under section 1, article A “The Administration of Justice Act 1970 “ regulations

b) falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;

Further letters of this nature will be treated as harassment and will be filed as evidence of such.

I have these grounds for refuting your claim.

1. No credit agreement was ever made with the company you represent.
2. No credit facility was ever provided by the company you represent.
3. The negative balance contained within the Paypal account was funds taken by the Paypal company without my consent, and passed to a third party, I was not in receipt of them.
4. A dispute was raised with the Paypal company at the time, although they rejected my dispute, that was an internal decision and not one of law. I still dispute the matter and am happy to proceed to court on the matter as I have documented evidence of my completion of a contract to the third party, and although apparently, insufficient for the “Paypal company” I am confident UK Post office proof of postings are sufficient in law.

No previous letter (as you suggest) was ever received the one dated 3rd May 2007 is the first, Please treat this letter as the beginning of our correspondence.

If you are suggesting that Paypal provided me with a credit service the
“Consumer Credit Act 1974” requires that the company have a credit licence registered with the DTI, and that a written credit agreement has been made between myself and the company.
While I am unaware of the former licence situation, I am positive that no such written agreement was ever made between myself and Paypal, and as such Paypal have no grounds to claim recovery of a credit not supplied.




To continue…

If the credit was supplied by form of a distance agreement then..

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 as amended by the 2004 Amendment Regulations..
Section 97(1) provides that the creditor must, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing from the debtor (the one that does not exist), give the debtor a statement in the prescribed form indicating:

• the amount of the payment required to discharge his indebtedness under the agreement; and

• the prescribed particulars showing how that amount is arrived at.

The form and content of such statements is prescribed by the Settlement Information Regulations, as amended by the Early Settlement Regulations.
Office of Fair Trading Consumer Credit (Agreements etc) Regs draft FAQs 7
If the creditor fails to comply with section 97(1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement. If the default continues for one month he commits a criminal offence.

I’m sure with a little more research I could find lots more breaches in codes of conduct of how Paypal are unfounded in this claim.
Including the “The Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971 (Electronic Commerce) (Amendment) Regulations 2005”
As no credit service was request, in fact it was quite clearly rejected at the time of the dispute.

On a personal communication, just so you understand what you are dealing with here, I will give you some brief background.

3rd party buys a laptop from through eBay from myself., they pay by Paypal.
I withdraw the payment to my bank account and send the laptop computer, I obtain legal proof of posting through the Royal Mail post office.
I have a highly recommended history with eBay and previously with Paypal, and their feedback system and have always acted honourably there is no suggestion that this case should be any different.
At this point I have completed my contract with the third party as no delivery insurance (which is optional was taken or purchased).

3rd party in Ireland claim never to receive the item (in fact the claim was made before a reasonable time for delivery, but that is insubstantial), and claim money back through Paypal a dispute is opened, I inform Paypal that I have legal proof of posting and that no delivery insurance was taken.
Paypal request from myself a delivery tracking number, I then inform Paypal that I have no tracking number since the 3rd party did not purchase this service.
Paypal make the decision that they find against me and withdraw the funds from the account to pay to the third party placing my account in a negative balance.
I dispute this and threaten court action as I believe that Paypal had no lawful right to this action. No more is heard, and I decide to simply not use Paypal services anymore until your letter.

I hope that you will see the futility of pursuit of this case, and will advise Paypal the same.

[veronica_marsfan]

buying id == 100%
sellingid == 98%

If paypal recovers the money by debt agency, they will do one of two things (they claim)
- return the money to the buyer
- or, if buyer already did a credit reversal, thereby sucking money out of paypal's wallet, then paypal will keep the recovered funds.

yes but at the sellers expense, when it was not there fault either Oh well. If I brought a court case, the judge would find in my favor too. I bought a new hard drive, not a busted one.

The seller then sues the shipper, for refund of costs.

[Griking]

I find it funny how you've been insisting you're right all this time you still refuse to tell us your eBay account name or link to one of your auctions. Surely with all the laws of the land on your side you shouldn't have anything to hide.

[veronica_marsfan]

I'm not giving you my credit card number, or social security number either.

You don't need my private info
(unless you're an identity thief).

[Kid Ice]

My only question is: when will Veronica Mars reruns finally hit syndication?

[veronica_marsfan]

Not enough episodes for syndication.

[Kitsune Sniper]

b] You can NOT ship non-working items to a buyer; doesn't matter who caused the damage; what matters is that YOU the seller violated the contract. [/b] You didn't deliver a working item as promised.

What if you sell a broken item to be used for parts? Jeez, don't be so dramatic.

[veronica_marsfan]

Then I delivered what I advertised.
No breech of contract.

Aside:

- The item cost is the item cost.

- It shouldn't include anything "extra" like handling or credit card fees. The item cost is only the cost of the item being sold.

[skaar]

Y'know, this is kinda like watching an episode of Single Female Lawyer.

[yok-dfa]

Paypal request from myself a delivery tracking number, I then inform Paypal that I have no tracking number since the 3rd party did not purchase this service.

Here lies the problem: If you want the security that a tracking number provides, then *YOU* (as the seller) should pay for it. Since Paypal already provides the buyer with an extra level of insurance against lost/damaged items why should the buyer pay extra for tracking when it only benefits the seller?

[RugalSizzler]

A great example is this woman who used FedeX and she sent a flat TV threw and the insurance was to cover the entire TV. The TV was delivered broken
right in the center and she filed her claim. The Insurance would not grant her what she was owed at all. In fact she had to tell a news station about it to get anything done. She got a replacement of the model.

I forget if it was the FedEx insurance or the stores insurance but somebody did not want to pay the price.

Now if she placed no insurance on the item and the TV arrived broken who fault is it???????????????? and do you even think she would have gotten a refund??????????????

If insurance is not offered then your going to have to gamble on carrier like everybody else.

a business/company/seller does not have to provide anything or give a refund for a undelivered item even if they do not offer insurance. All they have to do is proof of delivery.

[veronica_marsfan]

A Judge would rule that the seller owes the woman a refund, because the seller said she would get a WORKING tv, not a broken one.

.

[ryborg]

I can't believe this thread is still active. Law suit, law suit, words words words. Who the hell cares? Even if everything dawsons_creekfan says is correct, who has time for a lawsuit over an ebay item?

MY ADVENTURES OF DINO-RIKI CART DOESN'T WORK AND YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY EMAIL! I'MA SUE YOU!

The only way I'd see an actual lawsuit being necessary is for an extremely high-end item, and in that case, you should make sure you're covered so it doesn't come to lawsuit threats. If you can't/don't want to do that, buy your expensive items in a real store.

[XianXi]

A Judge would rule that the seller owes the woman a refund, because the seller said she would get a WORKING tv, not a broken one.

.

Oh wow, so now you're a judge?

[RugalSizzler]

A Judge would rule that the seller owes the woman a refund, because the seller said she would get a WORKING tv, not a broken one.

.

No what really did occur was the insurance did not want to pay the $4000 and she had to go on tv just to get them to pay. This was real.

[veronica_marsfan]

No what really did occur was the insurance did not want to pay the $4000 and she had to go on tv just to get them to pay. This was real.

She could have just hired a lawyer. (Why are people so afraid to go to court? That's what they are there for: To provide resolution in a dispute between two people.)

If I spent $3000 and got a broken tv, and neither paypal nor Visa were helpful, I'd be hiring a lawyer. And getting the judge to rule that I'm owed a refund.

[Felixthegamer]

People are not afraid to go to court, but I don't think most people would hire a lawyer over 199$ broken hard drive like you said you would.