Rare Atari Prototype boxes?…

[Dr. Morbis]

Please make a valid point as to what "good" it will be to have a better picture. Nobody has made that point yet. Please tell me what good a better picture will be, this is driving me crazy.

Are you dense? I already said: see Bratwurst's post (#42) above. Here, I'll do the copy-paste for you. Make sure your eyelids are open when you read it, or the information might not make it onto your retina (and hence, your brain):

"That's easy, it's preservation of a very fragile medium. It's so detail can be appreciated by someone who wants to see detail."

[Buyatari]

This thread is very funny for a number of reasons.

Certain people in this thread posting don't collect this sort of thing, nor do they collect prototypes in general, yet they feel the need to explain their point of view about things and try and equate value on top of it to something they do not collect.

Who? Like the Gripe King? Ahh hes just a shark who see blood in the water when thers a forum fight. Doesn't matter if its a subject he could care less about or not.



To top this off, we also have an idiotic person stating that he does not collect "all" the 2600 games because it is "selfish?" You know what? Get out of this thread, get off these forums. Do you realize what video game site you are on? I'm getting a bit sick of seeing this guy's ragged responses and whining in general for something he knows nothing about.

See above. He just argues to argue doesn't matter if he knows the subject matter or not.



Personally, I would like to purchase the Hulk box myself, but that's up to the buyer to decide what he wants to do with it. I can say this, though. There are really neat perfect scans of Atari 2600 boxes and labels on Atari Age right now. It's no coincidence that the site with some of the best info and scans for Atari games/boxes/manuals on the net also has people that are capable of recreating copies of these boxes/games to such a perfect tee that only THEY would be able to tell the difference if they were real/counterfeit.

We are talking about easy money. These are usually not the forum regulars but someone who happens across an auction or even a website that declares an empty box is worth close to $1000.

A blingo search and POW (ala Emeril) a 1:1 high res scan of the box in question. Quick print, cut and paste (real cut and paste) and you are ready to go. Semi decent photo with little description but a decent price BIN auction. He adds that the auction only ends with completed paypal payment and the buyer is screwed.

I'm really not worried about the experts I know all them by name. I am worried about the amatures.

AA does have a ton of scans. Its been brought up several times by many people that he really needs to get them watermarked and personally I think its just a matter of time before he does. He tries he best to end the auctions that steal his pics and does a good job but after someone gets ripped off one too many times with an AA stock photo I think he will change it.



Take that with what you will, I don't see any issue with it being scanned, but I also don't see why there is a necessity for it. I mean, sure, it looks great, but I look at box scans to make sure the ones I have are NOT counterfeit these days (quality, etc). Though more and more systems have scans, and if you are doing magazine articles, a scan of something is pretty cool.


Well now that Tips and Tricks collectors corner is gone I can't see that any time soon.



One last thing, there are OTHER people behind the scenes helping acquire these games. Red Eye is just more visible with the website, but a lot of you don't know where a lot of these games came from. DRX releases, Assembler releases, etc.

Well he brings that upon himself.

[Buyatari]

Eye problems?

You guys are the ones who can't make out a clear picture and he said GOOD reason.

So to set the record straight we need a better scan for all the 2600 fans here who both like prototype boxes and have an eyesight problem and can't make out a clear photo.

Thats clearly not enough reason to post an undoctored high res scan.

The REAL reason has to do with greed. They want it just to want it but can't admit they are so much like the collectors they loathe.



Are you dense? I already said: see Bratwurst's post (#42) above. Here, I'll do the copy-paste for you. Make sure your eyelids are open when you read it, or the information might not make it onto your retina (and hence, your brain):

"That's easy, it's preservation of a very fragile medium. It's so detail can be appreciated by someone who wants to see detail."

[ProgrammingAce]

Why does this thread remind me of the Bio Force Ape thread?

Damn, i didn't bother popping in here 'cause i couldn't care less about 2600 boxes. Why didn't anyone tell me we were having the same old argument we always have? Hell, i don't even remember which side of it i'm supposed to be on anymore...

[DreamTR]

Programming Ace: That's ok, apparently half the NES community thinks I still "horde" everything anyway, so I think the misconception among information is good for those that don't pay attention these days.

[Buyatari]

Programming Ace: That's ok, apparently half the NES community thinks I still "horde" everything anyway, so I think the misconception among information is good for those that don't pay attention these days.

99/100 is not enough. Unless you dump every single prototype thats ever crossed your path and photograph every rare item they might be interested in send them the file so they can present the collection of file as their own you just haven't done enough. Theres no pleasing some people.

[TheRedEye]

My favorite part of these threads is how I explain my point of view that I don't personally need this stuff, that my concern is preserving things for the future before it's too late, and how buyatari just keeps repeating how I like to hoard things on my hard drive and "call them my own." The truth is I'm so disorganized I don't even have half of the stuff I've personally acquired over the years saved anywhere. I don't want this stuff for me, I want it around for others.

My second favorite part of this particular thread is buyatari's assumption that the only magazine usage for one of these boxes, from now until the end of time, would have been the now-defunct Tips 'N Tricks.

[ubersaurus]

Ohh its been twisted since we started.

I am saying that there are few people with an an interest bigger than a "Hurmp" <closes window>. Do you disagree?

I am also saying that its a risk to post high res scans and the better the scan the harder its going to be to detect with a low res picture on ebay. Do you disagree?

In conclussion with no benefit thats really tangible making high res scans is an unnecessary risk.

Its really a sad state we live in where scammers are everywhere from reseals to fake boxes to posting pictures of rare boxes that they do not own !

read this one !
http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108785
A watermarked photo would have prevented this scam !

There may be a small group of people interested in these historically and artistically, but there's also a small group of people interested it in monetarily, is my point. Given a choice between the two, I'd opt for the first group.

And it is a risk that there may be scammers out there. But among the collector realm, aren't these the only known copies? If this guy isn't selling them, then people are going to want proof that any others are legit. At least, for prototype stuff, they should. Personally I'd scan em with some sort of physical thing on there to denote that they're my boxes. Not an electronic watermark, or even something written on the box itself...maybe a scrap of paper slipped in front of it on the scanner that says who's this is. A lot trickier to remove that in photoshop and still have it look legit. Keep a clean scan for the owner himself, just in case anything might happen to it.

At any rate, I'm a preservationist. I like to see these sorts of things protected to some degree electronically, since down the line any historians for the medium(and you can believe there will be some) will have something.

[Griking]

My favorite part of these threads is how I explain my point of view that I don't personally need this stuff, that my concern is preserving things for the future before it's too late, and how buyatari just keeps repeating how I like to hoard things on my hard drive and "call them my own." The truth is I'm so disorganized I don't even have half of the stuff I've personally acquired over the years saved anywhere. I don't want this stuff for me, I want it around for others.

My second favorite part of this particular thread is buyatari's assumption that the only magazine usage for one of these boxes, from now until the end of time, would have been the now-defunct Tips 'N Tricks.

My favorite part is where BuyAtari makes assumptions about people he really doesn't even know.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but who are you and DreamTR referring to that doesn't collect Atari games "because it's selfish".

[Bronty-2]

So let's just keep everything under lock and key. Let's put on our tinfoil hats and treat the hobby we claim to love like cold-hearted stock investors. Let's never, ever scan/dump/rip/copy anything that might have monetary value. Let's just sell things to the highest bidder, because only people willing to spend lots of money for closet clutter deserve to enjoy anything. Whenever unwashed sewer urchin ask if we can maybe preserve a little history, let's go all out and make DAMNED SURE that it doesn't happen!



Pretty easy to say when its not your money at risk. If you did want to buy the physical items, would you look at the risk of fakes the same way? Would you be glad that a bunch of people on a forum with no real interest in the item made it easier for you to get ripped off out of YOUR $1,000? (And no I don't collect these).

[Bronty-2]

The truth is I'm so disorganized I don't even have half of the stuff I've personally acquired over the years saved anywhere. I don't want this stuff for me, I want it around for others.

.

Well that really weakens your argument. If these scans are cluttered and disorganized then its really not helping anyone.

Besides, the point stands that the current pictures are plenty good enough. No one can really argue around that convincingly because its just the flat truth.

[Kid Fenris]

We need better scans to determine if the Hulk is merely punching that robot or, in fact, violently raping it.

[Bratwurst]

Hulk penetrate rubber gasket!

[ProgrammingAce]

How about instead of watermarking the picture, you do a reverse watermark on the boxes!

Take the highest resolution scan you can, then post it here on DP. Then take a sharpie and write something on the front of the box, but don't tell anyone what it is. This way, if a fake ever goes up for sale, all someone has to do is ask you what you wrote on your box!

It's the perfect plan, it gives people a high rez scan of the box AND adds a measure to keep people from being scammed by fakes.

You won't have to worry about ruining a one-of-a-kind box, since you've already taken a high rez scan!

[Buyatari]

My favorite part of these threads is how I explain my point of view that I don't personally need this stuff, that my concern is preserving things for the future before it's too late, and how buyatari just keeps repeating how I like to hoard things on my hard drive and "call them my own." The truth is I'm so disorganized I don't even have half of the stuff I've personally acquired over the years saved anywhere. I don't want this stuff for me, I want it around for others.

My second favorite part of this particular thread is buyatari's assumption that the only magazine usage for one of these boxes, from now until the end of time, would have been the now-defunct Tips 'N Tricks.

Sure you have no need for this stuff. Thats actually part of my argument. You do collect these things though reguardless of your lack of needing them.

When you obtain the game and present it to the masses you claim it as your own.

Yes this game was saved from the clutches of evil AND BROUGHT TO YOU BY REDEYE !!

Come to MY WEBSITE and download this game AT MY WEBSITE where we have 100s of others THAT I REDEYE saved from the abyss ALL ON MY WEBSITE.

See its yours now. You claimed it as your own. Its on your website the picture or file is there for download and discussion.

RIP Tips and Tricks. I have found no other with a care for the classic gamer.

[Buyatari]

My favorite part is where BuyAtari makes assumptions about people he really doesn't even know.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but who are you and DreamTR referring to that doesn't collect Atari games "because it's selfish".

I also assume he was talking about you. I guess you will have to ask him where that came from "selfish" bit came from.

I do make the assumption that you probably wouldn't be able to pick out a unreleased 2600 box in a boxed lot.

[DreamTR]

Its not that I don't care if people get ripped off or not it just that I think that it's silly to hold back quality photos of these boxes just to possibly protect a small minority of people. Yeah, I collect Atari stuff but not to the point where I selfishly feel the need to own everything. I say release them in all their hi resolution glory and let the buyer beware.


nor do others have the right to expect that every rarity unearthed should be horded away and ony appreciated by those with bulging pocketbooks


Uh yeah. Guess I better not collect everything for a system and neither should anyone else because it's pretty darn selfish.

[TheRedEye]

Sure you have no need for this stuff. Thats actually part of my argument. You do collect these things though reguardless of your lack of needing them.

When you obtain the game and present it to the masses you claim it as your own.

Yes this game was saved from the clutches of evil AND BROUGHT TO YOU BY REDEYE !!

Come to MY WEBSITE and download this game AT MY WEBSITE where we have 100s of others THAT I REDEYE saved from the abyss ALL ON MY WEBSITE.

See its yours now. You claimed it as your own. Its on your website the picture or file is there for download and discussion.

RIP Tips and Tricks. I have found no other with a care for the classic gamer.

You're really awesome at this whole blind assumption thing! Please, since you know so much about me, name one goddamned place on my entire website that I even bother mentioning my role in saving these games (I'll give you a hint: there's exactly one). And since I'm such a PR whore for myself, you might as well tell me the last time I even bothered promoting my website anywhere, because even I can't remember that.

[Buyatari]

You're really awesome at this whole blind assumption thing! Please, since you know so much about me, name one goddamned place on my entire website that I even bother mentioning my role in saving these games (I'll give you a hint: there's exactly one). And since I'm such a PR whore for myself, you might as well tell me the last time I even bothered promoting my website anywhere, because even I can't remember that.

I said "come to my website" not "welcome to my website". I really don't visit your website as I don't even have an emulator on my PC.

You do it here. Its what you are and what you do. You collect the pc files and you work hard at it. Its how you are known. You are the robin hood of video games to steal from the horders and give to the warez I mean the deserving.

[Buyatari]

And as we all know, Robin Hood is a total bastard...

Of course not he's the #1 public defender.

Those not willing to help even once or those who would dare question wether an action is really helping and might actually hurt the hobby are labeled traitors to the hobby.

[esquire]

Pretty easy to say when its not your money at risk. If you did want to buy the physical items, would you look at the risk of fakes the same way? Would you be glad that a bunch of people on a forum with no real interest in the item made it easier for you to get ripped off out of YOUR $1,000? (And no I don't collect these).

But he didn't pay $1,000 for them. He paid $8.

Personally, I'd never sell them. Considering the price that was paid out-of pocket, they would be more value to me to keep in my collection as I know I could never get another set at that price. I wouldn't care if other people wanted to make copies, because I know that I have the originals, and that's all that matters to me, especially because I know I'd never sell them. I am not not going to come on here and say "You can't have this, you can't have this".

Look if the guy is going to sell these, he'd should sell them now and make his money. I use to collect sports memorabilia and got out after the market started becoming flooded in the early to mid 90's. People would say, look I got this guy's autograph or rookie card and it's worth X amount of dollars. To which I'd reply, it's worth nothing but the price you paid for it until you sell it.

I will never understand why people who collect rare items use potential monetary value as an argument for collecting them in the first place. I collect rare items for the sake of them being rare and for the fact that they have personal value to me.

[DreamTR]

esquire: I don't agree with that "it's worth the price you paid" until you sell it argument. I bought an NWC for $50. That's my investment on it. I know I will make my profit on it if I ever decide to sell it. I may never do it, and I only invested $50, but whoever ends up with that cart will probably sell it and make a ton of cash. Wealth is not determined by how much you pay for something. By that argument John Homeowner's 1955 house he has that he paid 20K for is now worth 600K on the market "if" he sells it, AND he bought stock from GE for $1 a share, and it's worth $40 or so now. The guy's a bonafide millionaire. Just a hypothetical situation, but wealth is not measured by cash when dealing with things, it's measured by assets in a lot of instances. I am sure Bill Gates does not have 30 Billion in cash lying around, and they sure did not come up with that number just by his cash alone, they measured it with market value of his assets.

[TheRedEye]

I said "come to my website" not "welcome to my website". I really don't visit your website as I don't even have an emulator on my PC.

You do it here. Its what you are and what you do. You collect the pc files and you work hard at it. Its how you are known. You are the robin hood of video games to steal from the horders and give to the warez I mean the deserving.

And you still haven't told me where, exactly, I tell people to come to my website. And I'm honestly a little offended that you think of Lost Levels as a place for people with emulators to come pirate things, when I've worked hard to give it credibility as a place for research and journalism. Ever since I launched the site, I've all but hidden the sections where you can download ROMs, because that's not what I want to be known for. Hell, I don't even think the ROM download links work anymore!

I'm sorry you think I'm some kind of crusader against game collectors, or even that I consider people "hoarders" if they don't want to share what they have. Sure, maybe when I was young, but I haven't felt that way in years. I've come to understand and sympathize with private property, and I don't bother people about what I think they should do with their own things. Ask Wilson, when is the last time we butted heads over this? Six years ago? Do you want me to detail how much effort I've put into telling people to respect you guys instead of bitching?

I don't care what you do with your things, and honestly admire the persistence you've shown in collecting cool stuff. My only beef with you is your strange crusade to intentionally hide things away from the public; not just your things, EVERYBODY'S things. You're on a holy crusade to make sure there's mystery left in the video game hobby, by actively convincing people to share as little information as possible.

You don't seem to realize that even if there were a hundred of me, we're never going to run out of mysteries. There are tons and tons of high profile, amazing things that are going to remain buried until the end of time, and there's nothing I can do about that. And by god, trimming the "fat" off of these mysteries by exposing what we can just makes those unattainable grails even more exciting.

This has nothing to do with you vs. me or us vs. them or whatever little feud you dreamed up. These arguments happen because you're not happy minding your business and worrying about protecting your own shit. That's just not enough, you feel the need to "protect" EVERYBODY'S shit. My hobby and my efforts are constantly stalemated by you, because whenever something interesting or important comes up, you feel the need to jump in and try to "protect" these poor, defenseless games and assets against grubby, horrible internet pirates who, heaven forbid, don't have a gigantic video game collection in their basements, and therefore are not worthy of appreciating history.

It's strange how our goals are so weirdly similar. I want to protect game history by making sure it doesn't disappear, you want to protect it by making sure it DOES.

[Vectorman0]

Come on guys, can we agree to disagree? Maybe take it to PM's or settle it over a game of Galaga at CGE. Sparky can do whatever he chooses, and he's heard plenty on each side, none of which he asked to hear.

I really don't want to lock a thread on such an amazing find, but if the back-and-forth keeps up, I will.

[DreamTR]

Vectorman: I don't think either of them ARE going to CGE unfortunately =( But that would have been a heck of a Galaga game =P

[Vectorman0]

Vectorman: I don't think either of them ARE going to CGE unfortunately =( But that would have been a heck of a Galaga game =P

Heh, I guessed they both would be. Oh well, they could always do Pac Man over Xbox Live instead.

[esquire]

esquire: I don't agree with that "it's worth the price you paid" until you sell it argument.

It's not an argument. It's my opinion. look I am not coming in here trying to pick a fight or take sides, because quite frankly, no one wins here.

All I am saying is that if the guy is going to keep it, he's only out $8, which to me the benefit of keeping the items at that price far outweighs the benefit of selling it.


Wealth is not determined by how much you pay for something.

And this is where you and I differ. As I stated in my opinion, I do not see this as "wealth". I see this as a hobby which brings me personal gratification. I am not going to stake my personal wealth on my video game collection. That's why I have a job and a retirement fund. This is my hobby, not my investment.

That's why I take the opinion that if he's going to sell them for thousands of dollars, then by all means, do so. Take the money and run.

[Buyatari]

@Redeye I don't have anything personal against you and I do appreciate some of the work you have done. IMHO I think some of it does more harm than it does good but I would say that in your heart you do believe in what you do and thats pretty important. I'm sorry if I said anything that offended you. In this case you happened to hit a raw nerve with me. I had been asked for scans of my star wars boxes years back and said no and pretty much said what I said here. The Intv website found another source and posted 1:1 high res scans with fronts and all sides. Later we had several suspect boxes and while I don't know the names of those affected, collectors getting ripped off has always deeply pissed me off (see the Nick Morgan thread). I do try to protect what I think is important even items that are not mine much the same as to try to release items which are not yours. I can back up why I feel its important but always seem to end up in a position where I feel I have to defend myself even if the item isn't mine. I'm not the only collector who feels the way I do just the only one dumb enough to express it and take the abuse for it.

As for "worth" and value and all that. When I first started actively collecting in the early to mid 90's I didn't see videogames that way either. When your physical collection is worth more than your house and you've gone without things for years to obtain that collection it starts getting worse. When your neighborhood gos to shit and you need to come up with a plan to get out of dodge your collection really starts looking like dollar signs.

My twised theory (based on my time with stocks I imagine) on value goes like this. If you have an item that cost you 50 cents but you turn away an offer of $10 you are now into the item for $10. You had your choice of $10 or the item and you took the item. Same results as if you bought it for $10. You may later sell it for more but you are now locked in at $10. Having a stock at $1 that skyrockets to $50 and then falls to $1 in my opinion is not breaking even.

[TheRedEye]

Come on guys, can we agree to disagree? Maybe take it to PM's or settle it over a game of Galaga at CGE. Sparky can do whatever he chooses, and he's heard plenty on each side, none of which he asked to hear.

I really don't want to lock a thread on such an amazing find, but if the back-and-forth keeps up, I will.

Hey, sure. This isn't even about the damned boxes anymore, so I agree we should all shut up, and I apologize for my part in continuing my dumb arguments.

Sparky, seriously, nice find. Here's a little more background, in case you're unfamiliar with the games:

While James Bond was indeed released for the Atari, the "As Seen in Octopussy" version is an unreleased game. This was commissioned by Parker Bros to a developer called Western Technologies. That original game, according to at least one reputable source (http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88086), was well behind schedule, and was canceled in favor of the Bond game that was eventually released. You can see a mock-up screenshot of that original game, along with a low-res version of the very box you now own, in this catalog scan (http://www.atariage.com/catalog_page.html?CatalogID=15&currentPage=12). Apparently this version of the game was displayed at at least one trade show, as vouched for by Leonard Herman.

The Incredible Hulk is, of course, among the most notorious of the lost 2600 games. Again, a low-res box scan and screenshot were published in catalogs of the time (http://www.atariage.com/catalog_page.html?CatalogID=15&currentPage=7), but to my knowledge, the game - if development was even started - was never shown to the public. I wrote a small article about this back in 2003, if you're interested (click here! (http://www.lostlevels.org/200308/200308-hulk.shtml)). No new information has turned up since then, as far as I'm aware.

Atari Age has a pretty good entry (http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=1955) on Lord of the Rings, including a pretty nice photograph of another promo box like yours.

[TheRedEye]

@Redeye I don't have anything personal against you and I do appreciate some of the work you have done.

Hey man, I don't have anything against you either, you're just fun to argue with! For the record I think you're a swell guy, we just have strongly opposed views on some things.

[idrougge]

I am saying that there are few people with an an interest bigger than a "Hurmp" <closes window>. Do you disagree?


So what do you do with a physical box? Make love to it? Eat it? If it's so amazing that people are ready to pay a lot of money for it, why is it so uninteresting in digitised form?

I think there are few people with an interest bigger than a "Hurmp" <puts away box in drawer>. Do you disagree?

(I can't believe this thread still goes on...)

[idrougge]

Besides, the point stands that the current pictures are plenty good enough. No one can really argue around that convincingly because its just the flat truth.

The pictures are good enough in the same way as a bootleg on Ebay is good enough.

[Buyatari]

(I can't believe this thread still goes on...)

I was thinking it was done till your post came along.

[portnoyd]

Watermarks wouldn't help.

ORLY?!

http://www.spaceballsthewebsite.com/yay/boxes.jpg

Let's see someone make a dupe of those.

[idrougge]

I was thinking it was done till your post came along.

Well, I did suggest a ceasefire two pages ago, if you remember.

Still, I'd like to know why someone would pay so much for an box when you say it is so uninteresting that it isn't worth scanning.

[Buyatari]

I didn't say it wasn't worth scanning. I said it wasn't worth a beter scan than what is already available because the risk outweighs the benefit.

Why would someone pay so much?

Because we are sick in the head thats why.

Ok I'm done with this thread.

[portnoyd]

Because we are sick in the head thats why.

My farts smell like roasted corn right now. Probably the 2 huge garlic knots I had with lunch.