3-D Metroid VS. 2-D Metroid

[Nero 99]

what are your opinions about the new metroid games? personally i like the 2-d ones way more but im curious to know what others think.

[itobandito]

Here is a vote for 2d

[Kid Ice]

Super Metroid is one of the best games I've ever played. I liked Metroid Prime but IMO it's not at an "all time best" level.

[Guru of Time and Space]

TJ, founder of the Metroid Database, pinpoints my exact feelings on 3D Metroid titles:

The Prime series has sucked my enthusiasm for Metroid out of me like...well, a metroid.

-GoTaS

[skaar]

I loved Super Metroid and the GBA games (Zero Mission/Fusion) quite a bit.

Prime I bought a Gamecube for but never finished. I ended up enjoying Mario Sunshine more. I plan on revisiting Prime/Prime2 at some point this summer.

[diskoboy]

2-D Metroid gameplay cannot be truly duplicated in 3-D.

And the old 2-D games were more "free-roaming" than their 3-D incarnations.

Not to mention Super Metroid is the best game in the history of the universe.

(that's a vote for 2-D, if you haven't figured that out, by now..)

[Nero 99]

it looks to me that everyone else feels the same way i do.... the 3-d metroids just suck compared to the 2-d ones!!! its sad knowing that there will probably never be another 2-d metroid game again with the wii and ds out. not that i dont like the ds or wii.

[heybtbm]

2-D Metroid = absolute classic
3-D Metroid = absolute shit

There is nothing more to say.

[Damaramu]

I prefer the 2D games all the way.

Now maybe if the 3D games played more like, say for instance, Tomb Raider or God of War I might be singing a different tune.

But as a FPS? Nah, I'd rather not....

[snesrocksmysocks]

2d all they way

[MarioMania]

Super Metroid, Metroid, Metroid II is the best

[AMG]

2D Metroid for me, no contest at all.

Metroid and Super Metroid are two of my all time favorite games. Especially the masterpiece Super Metroid.

The Metroid Prime series doesn't even compare. I'm still pissed off that this amazing series has been ruined.

[djsquarewave]

Wow. I don't think I've ever seen such complete hatred for Metroid Prime. @_@

I absolutely adore Super Metroid, and I love every 2D game in the franchise (even Metroid II), but Prime is quite easily within my top five games of all time.

Echoes can suck it, though.

[ubersaurus]

Yeah, Prime rocked. Echoes, not so much. I can't even pinpoint what I don't really dig about the game...it's just not as good. And Hunters just plays more like a normal FPS than a metroid game.

I would rank Prime above Metroid and Metroid 2, as well as the gba ones. Super Metroid is better than Prime, though.

[Chris]

And I was beginning to think that I'm the only one in this world who found Metroid Prime to be a major disappointment.
I've shared some of my thoughts about the 3D titles and the excuses I get to hear, whenever I express my problems with the games, in this thread (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102501) already:

"I'm not an FPS, I'm an Adventure, so screw your tight FPS controls and playability, I can't be compared with games where you shoot at things from a first person view".




2-D Metroid gameplay cannot be truly duplicated in 3-D.


I disagree and think we just haven't seen a real serious attempt yet. Retro's titles have been a big departure and abandoned or watered down many things (mainly the platforming and shooting parts), while adding others (like all the scanning and reading).
I''m still baffled why they've not gone for a 3rd person view, but for a 1st person one instead. Platforming parts in 3D are difficult enough, but they would be way more managable with a 3rd person view. They wouldn't even have to shift cameras when morphing into a ball.

I think they just had this fancy idea about visualising the visor (water effects and such) and all this scanning stuff, with which they got carried away in the process of developing around the 1st person view. I think it was purely for the "immersion factor" and not a gameplay-driven decision, which I find really unfortunate.
They tried to counterbalance all this with incorporating story and background information, so that you're busy scanning and don't discover how shallow the actual gameplay (apart from the exploration) is, but even this scanning and reading isn't perfectly implemented and interrupts the gameflow constantly (Bungie did a better job of telling a story through text messages, while not interrupting the game, in their Marathon series years ago).
But even then, the gameplay wouldn't have suffered as much (apart from the platforming) if the Retro folks would've gone the whole way and incorporated a suited control scheme, like other 1st person games, where you happen to shoot at things.
But instead they left us with a scheme, better suited for 3rd person titles like Zelda, where you're mainly engaged in melee combat. The lock-on and auto-aim stuff, just doesn't make that much sense to me in a first person action title, from a designers point of view.

So yeah, as you've probably noticed, I'm not a big fan of the 3D titles up until now, but I'm still optimistic that Prime 3 could change that. Cause they seem to improve many of my complaints, namely spot-on controls for the shooting sections (no more target-assists necessary) and streamlined visor controls.

[Aussie2B]

Whether you love Prime or hate Prime, the truth is that Metroid, Metroid II, and Super Metroid ARE Metroid, while everything after those are, well... a homage.

I think many people, myself included, can feel a very tangible sense of sadness that hangs on the series, and it's fully justified and understandable. When Gunpei Yokoi died, he took the true spirit of Metroid to the grave, and the series will never, ever be the same.

[Mayhem]

Hmmm I'd probably disagree with that. To be fair, I hate Metroid and am indifferent to M2. Super Metroid however I love to death. I also love the Prime series as well, though I felt Echoes slightly beat Prime overall for the improvements it made and the tightening up of the backtracking.

So colour me one of those who loves both 2D and 3D here :p

[Icarus Moonsight]

I'm with djsquarewave. Prime was an awesome experience. I honestly can't wait for Prime 3... I'd love to see another 2D Metroid too. 2D > 3D where Metroid is concerned but, they are making them 3D, at least for now, and 3D Metroid is a hell of alot better than none. The reasons for Nintendo going 3D with Metroid is fairly obvious. They wanted a franshise to go FPS to get into that market. At least is wasn't a Kirby FPS (First Person Sucker he hee) or Zelda FPRPG (like Morrowind/Oblivion). **shudder** Since Kid Icarus was Metroids sister game and Nintendo seems to be digging Kid I up these days... can we look forward to a Kid Icarus FPS?!? Or is a modern Kid Icarus more likely to be a God of War-esque game? :hmm: Could go either way. I'm thinking the latter is more probable... to get another franshise in a (presently) Western dominated market.

My intent is not to derail this thread into Kid Icarus... it was just a conjoined thought.

[Cryomancer]

I like the GBA ones the best, and also enjoy Metroid II. Super Metroid I have actually not played, as I've been looking for a cheap local copy so I can play on hardware, and have come up completely dry for months. Prime is ok, but I'd like it better with a mouse and keyboard for sure.

[roushimsx]

I loved Metroid, Super Metroid, and (eventually) Zero Mission...but Metroid II didn't really do it for me and Fusion was crippled by bad pacing, over linearity, and some really, truly awful (and unskippable) writing.

Prime wasn't a bad game, but the controls just never sat well with me. I understand what they were going for with the control scheme, but it just plays so cumbersome with it that I wish they'd gone with a strictly +mlook-style control scheme and/or kept it in the third person. Headhunter: Redemption's control (and viewpoint!) setup is pretty much exactly what Prime's should have been, IMO. Shame Retro Studios is doing the Prime games instead of Amuze :(

I've yet to play Prime 2, because after the initial flurry of positive reviews that caused me to pick the game up came the negative word of mouth that kept me from bothering to toss it in the ol' gamecube. Hell, I've yet to beat the first Prime, though I'm going to take another stab at it in the near future.

[Dragon Warrior Jasen]

I love the Metroid series up till the Game Cube Versions. ( I was a very disappointed 10 year old kid when I found out the Samus was a girl )

I found the first prime to be a very akward game. The controls were horrible. They did a very poor job of the FPS controls, having to stop and look around vice being able to move around at the same time (like every other great FPS) was a pain in the rear.

I played it for about 10 min, got pissed and got rid of my gamecube. Why? Because I only bought the GC for the metroid game expecting the awesomeness of the early metroids. Maybe I didnt give it enough time or didnt learn the controls all the way, but i was miserable for those 10 min. I had to pull out my Metroid II game on the SP to make me not hate metroid anymore!

[mailman187666]

I honestly loved the Metroid Prime games on the cube. They are actually my favorite games for the cube, and I've been playing Metroid till it first came out on NES in the 80s. However, I will still always feel that 2D games in general are more fun than 3D. Metroid Prime GC games....classics.

[James8BitStar]

I didn't like Metroid Prime, but not because it was in 3D. Honestly I thought being in 3D would be a GOOD thing for the series. Exploration games really work in 3D (proof: King's Field and Daggerfall).

I wrote a rant elsewhere (http://hg101.proboards92.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=games&thread=1148997230&page=1) on why I didn't like MP, and I never bothered with any of the Metroids after it.

[kainemaxwell]

Have to say the classic 2-D. As others have said, Super Metroid is one of the top SNES titles and probably the peak of the Metroid franchise.

[calthaer]

I honestly didn't like some of the 2D games because of the annoying "shoot and / or stand on every single block until you find the one that you can go through" gameplay. I played and beat Metroid II, but not the first one, and Super Metroid...started, but meh.

Prime, however, I played all the way through. And Prime 2 - all the way until the end guy, who is tough and that vertical passageway and the jumping annoyed me. But I really enjoyed Prime / Prime 2. It's not the SAME as Metroid, but it's worthy in its own right. Then again, I generally hate playing FPSes with a controller (WSAD FTW), so the lock-on was something I liked, and made it not only tolerable, but enjoyable for me. Plus all the hidden items and things were fun. BUT - not being able to "bookmark" places so that I could check them on the map and come back to them when I got the requisite item to get the powerup...not fun.

[Neo Rasa]

I did find this somewhat annoying, though honestly, a couple of random notes on a scrap of paper beats the sheets of graph paper from my Wizardry days.

The cool thing about the maps in the Metroid Prime games is that every single room and corridor has a unique name. Usually between partially remembering that and some sort of landmark near the area I'd have no trouble remembering where I meant to go with an item or where to try exploring next. This is a little harder in Prime 2 because you have the Dark World versions of some areas to keep track of along with a slightly more dungeon like design (hubs with a few small rooms coming off each) but it still works. The first Metroid Prime's level design is top notch though for fun exploration.

[Pilotwings]

Backtracking in 3d games is horrific compared to 2d.

I liked prime as a 3d game but the sequal echos was a purple cash in im afraid with pointless new weapons and some horrible map layout.

[agbulls]

Wow. I'm a little surpised here. I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and absolutely agree that Super Metroid is a masterpiece -- and probably my favorite game of all time.

However, I don't understand the absolute hate for Metroid Prime. I can understand disliking the second Prime game, but I adored the first. I know I'm going to get slammed for saying it, but I really felt it was as close to Super Metroid in 3D as possible. Innovative controls, great music, great graphics, great gameplay, great boss fights, backtracking, secrets and everything.

In terms of a game moving from 2D to 3D, I can't think how it could have been done any better. I've finished the first Prime twice, and could easily run through it again just for the experience like I do Super Metroid.

So, my questions is...what specifically -- outside of it not being in 2D did you not like? I know the first person thing is a deal breaker for many, and can understand that viewpoint. But beyond that, what's wrong? And, if you were going to make a 3D Metroid game what would you have done differently? Like I said, I'll take Super Metroid over Prime any day of the week but Prime is still a modern classic in my book.

[nationgamesdepot]

I prefer the 2-D ones as well. But I do the Prime and Echoes as well, just not as much. The 3-D ones fall into the FPS styel which I am not a huge fan, but I do appreciate them for what the are. If it were up to me though, it would be 2-D from now on though.
~~NGD

[StakeRaiser]

I also vote for 2-D

second that for Castlevania and Mega Man as well

[Chris]

Wow. I'm a little surpised here. I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and absolutely agree that Super Metroid is a masterpiece -- and probably my favorite game of all time.

However
So, my questions is...what specifically -- outside of it not being in 2D did you not like? I know the first person thing is a deal breaker for many, and can understand that viewpoint. But beyond that, what's wrong? And, if you were going to make a 3D Metroid game what would you have done differently?

There are many things to poke a finger at, or two, or three.
My biggest gripe are the controls. You could call them innovative I guess, but I'd rather call 'em a Zelda-like mutation that has somehow found it's way into a first person game, albeit clearly better suited for the melee-orientated combat and awkardly unadequate for a game where combat revolves around shooting at things.

Then there's the shift from telling the story through visual cues and ingame setpieces in Super Metroid, to telling it through cutscenes and scanning, which both interrupt the gameflow and take the player out of the game.
The process of scanning itself is also a bit clumsy and requires far too many button presses and time, which hurts the pace of the game.
While we're at it, the pace really felt slower than in Super Metroid, also thx to the exclusion of many moves that allowed faster movement through the gameworld ("screw"-ing around, running real fast).
Samus lost much of her agility (maybe gained some weight, dunno), mainly appearant in the less stellar platformimg parts.

You said you know that people bring up the first person view as a deal breaker, but ever wondered why is that?
Imo it could be cause the things I've mentioned, are all more or less connected with Retro's choice to use a first person view and how they designed the gameplay around that idea.
They've incorporated the scanners as a main form of exploration, maybe they even choose the first person view, cause all the scanners could be easily implemented that way. Could also be they were just in need of a compensation for the so-so shooting and platforming, both only shadows of fomer incarnations.

So, if I would've been in charge, I would've done a remake of Super Metroid but without the suit..
.. just kidding (note to self: "Really?").
I think, even if I couldn't talk the guy who was drooling over his immersive first person view ideas (with fancy water and reflection effects on the visor) out of his idea, I would've at least added an imo better suited control scheme. I mean, I kind of understand that the folks at Nintendo were pretty pissed, as we western developers transferred one of their major franchises into something gay like an FPS, a genre which seems to be treated with ignorance or even hatred by most japanese folks, but to implement their familiar Zalda controls, just for the sake of reducing the culture shock, would've been a no-go for me.
Streamlining the process of scanning to nothing more than a click of a single button, and eliminated any wait, with instant scanning results, would've been the next on my busy schedule.
After that I would've tried to find a way not to interrupt the gameplay, for example like in the Marathon or System Shock series, or through (sexy female?) voice instead of text messages.
Stripping out any cut-scenes and other things that hurt the player's suspension of disbelief would've also been on my list, cause I mean, if you're aiming for a maximum amount of immersion (with the help of the first person view), you can go the whole way.

But oh dear, I wasn't in charge (which is for the better, for all the Prime fans I guess ^^;). I think I'd never done the game in first person to begin with. I've always had wet dreams about a 3rd person 3D Metroid (remember seeing alpha screens of the game in 3rd person). Platforming would've actually worked, shooting parts don't take a hit from the transition and you wouldn't have to change perspectives while switching to morph ball or cut-scenes.
The scanning would also take a back-seat of course, which wouldn't be a big loss in my book, as it always felt overblown to me.
Of course they couldn't show you earthshattering things like rain drops on your visor and stuff in 3rd person, but if you'd be past that, you might've been able to enjoy the broader gameplay possibilities.

Who knows, maybe in 20 or so years, when Prime's audiovisual splendor isn't anymore and we're playing the newest game in the series through the power of our minds on our Virtual DS Boys or something, maybe then people will say that Prime 1+2 have aged badly.

[agbulls]

Wow. That was almost totally illegible -- although I tried really hard to read it. Am I the only one that really liked the Prime controls? I'm totally bored of FPS games and found this refreshing. Guess I'm the only one.

You really believe that if Nintendo didn't want Retro to have created the game in first person they wouldn't have stopped them? It is THEIR franchise, and they just outsourced the development. From a business perspective, it makes complete sense when you realize that Metroid is MUCH more popular in the US than in Japan.

Here's how the thinking clearly went:
-Metroid already more popular in US than Japan
-Needs Halo type scifi brand to sell in US
-Needs Nintendo branded FPS to sell in US

I would have liked a third person game as well...I totally agree. But I think we often need to view things from a realworld perspective, and think of things from a business/corp mindset -- even if we totally disagree from a hardcore gamers mindset. Suggesting that Nintendo didn't want Metroid to be a FPS Adventure is stupid. Considering what the game COULD have been, I think it's great.

Also, you really thought the cutscenes were distracting? They were extremely short, and very rare. Just doesn't seem to be a valid complaint IMHO.

[extrarice]

I prefer the 2D Metroids over the Prime series. Platform action in FPSs is tough to do right (if it's even possible to do right). I didn't mind the scanning aspect of Prime to drive the story, but I think there were just too many things to scan. Most of the Space Pirate screens were intended to bring up a sense of suspense - OMG they were working on project X and it got out of control, I wonder if I'll run in to it! Unfortunately, the screens did not increase the tension and suspense, for me anyway, and I ended up just skipping through all that text. Aside from those complaints, I did sort-of enjoy Prime (except for the final boss - great, hover right above where I need to stand because guess what, I can't shoot straight up!)

Prime 2, on the other hand, was so bad that I don't plan to ever finish it. The "mirror world" concept is hoakey and the boss battles to gain suit enhancements require way too much precision for a 3D polygon FPS (spider ball guardian, nuff said). The world layout is too confusing when you're having to warp back and forth and backtrack all over the place. At least Prime's map layout made sense, and I think the area design was much nicer.

I'll wait to pass judgement on Prime 3 after I learn a bit more about the story and the control mechanism. If the Wiimote-Nunchuck combo can work halfway descent, I might pick it up.

Hunters? ....pass.

[BHvrd]

2-D all the way.

3-D is ok, but the game would have been much better if there wouldn't have been so many damn things to scan.

Some better cinematics and setup would have been nice too. In the 2-D versions the setup was great with a wonderful climax, very well designed. The 3-D games are kinda, shoot this, scan this, OH it's a boss, kill, repeat, no real good flow, it felt too much like a chore than a nice gaming experience.

[chicnstu]

I don't like the 2D Metroid games and I don't like FPSs so I guess I have to vote "neither". But I do think the Metroid games (ALL of them) are games of extreme quality. I'll probably enjoy Metroid Prime 3 though because the Wii pointer is fun.

I don't usually like side-scrolling character shooting games, the only series I've kind of liked is Metal Slug. I LOVE 3D actions titles (Ratchet and Clank is so addicting).

EDIT: Took out a sentence to keep people from getting off topic.

[Zork]

I love the 2D Metroid games. They are a part of my childhood. Because of that reason, they will always be better then the 3D games in my eyes. That doesn't make the 3D games crap though. The 3D metroid games have great graphics and I love all the details about all the different enemies in the game you get through the scanning system. It's good stuff.

[Sanriostar]

I like both incarnations, but I don't want to see 2-D Met go away. Here's hoping the DS rumors are true.

[agbulls]

I like both incarnations, but I don't want to see 2-D Met go away. Here's hoping the DS rumors are true.

Have you read something recent about a DS Metroid? I thought that rumor was killed awhile ago. :(

Maybe Contra 4 will sell like crazy and Nintendo will see that the DS still has continued support for 2D. Here's hoping...

[calthaer]

Someone mentioned Hunters:

I do have to say that I think Hunters was abysmal and atrocious. The touchscreen was a HORRIBLE way to control a FPS, especially when I had to keep a hand on buttons on both sides of the unit. I essentially had to extend a pinkie finger and use the stylus and then use the other hand with the control pad - terrible.

[carlcarlson]

I was wondering when someone was going to mention Hunters. I just played that this morning and it sucked. that is to say, the controls sucked. the game seemed decent enough but I could not get used to using the stylus as a mouse and tapping to jump. my hands were cramping like crazy, and finally I just had to stop playing. here's hoping for a 2D metroid on the DS!

[James8BitStar]

So, my questions is...what specifically -- outside of it not being in 2D did you not like?

Personally, I actually LIKED the 3D, AND the First-Person.

As I said before, before you find the heat visor in the wrecked ship, the game is fine. After that though, the game resorts to the common cop-out of making you face the same (or very similar) enemies in each area who all take a crapload of hits to kill. Fighting the same three space pirates/chozo ghosts in each room gets very tedious, very fast, and when you're not fighting those you're fighting those huge turtle things in the arctic area who, again, take a crapload of hits. Sure, you can just avoid them, but sometimes thats almost as annoying as fighting them (trying to walk a narrow ledge and getting knocked off by that space pirate you've been ignoring...)

And the stupid artifacts.