Definitive series in Retro Gamer...worst writing/research? [Archive]

tom

07-07-2007, 07:15 AM

The definitive series in Retro Gamer:

Frogger (issue 38):
Frogger II: Threeedeep!, in the magazine it is spelled 'Frogger 2:Threedeep' throughout the article. So he didn't even look at the game (box)?
And he called Frogger (first Frogger)(Parker Bros version) a 'crude-looking' effort! What??? It's an excellent title in both graphics and sound (for the time). And a million seller too. (No comparison with Supercharger, of course, but for a cart version, Frogger was top).

Galaxian (issue 32):
No mention of Galaga on Atari 7800, nor the excellent VCS version of Galaxian, nor Gorf on Jaguar (which includes the 'Galaxians' level). Although he does mention that there is no 'official' Gorf version.

Xevious (issue 34):
No mention on (again) Atari 7800 (does he actually know this console?), A8, Apple ][, nor the VCS proto (should have been included/at least mentioned as the game was started by Tod Frye).

And that is just 3 'definitive' articles picked out at random.

I really hope the writer doesn't do the 'Definitive' series much longer, as it is not. Or am I being picky? Am I asking to much? Is proper research still so difficult, even with the internet, providing DP, AA, AM, VA and so forth?

anagrama

07-07-2007, 08:01 AM

They're written by the infamous Stuart Campbell (http://worldofstuart.co.uk/), no?

tom

07-07-2007, 08:02 AM

Well I wasn't gonna mention any names, but yes.

Mayhem

07-07-2007, 12:44 PM

Conversions generally DO NOT get listed in the articles unless they are significantly different in someway (for example Rodland on the NES) compared to the arcade.

Steve W

07-07-2007, 01:20 PM

Didn't they have a big look back at the NES in that issue? They mentioned that the 6502 processor was comparable to the 68000, which struck me as pretty inaccurate.

So much of the magazine's information is inaccurate, but I love it anyway. I couldn't take a poop without it. :)

boatofcar

07-07-2007, 03:51 PM

After the buyout, I stopped subscribing. I prefer the "dry" writing of the early days of the magazine to what I read about now. I never thought it was dry, anyway. I loved the magazine in its original incarnation, UK computer bias and all :)

tom

07-07-2007, 04:17 PM

Conversions generally DO NOT get listed in the articles unless they are significantly different in someway (for example Rodland on the NES) compared to the arcade.

Now that's just being stupid. Not an arcade game at all, but why mention the Coleco version of Frogger II: Threeedeep!, and NOT the VCS version then? Sorry, that excuse won't wash.

If not it's own column, but a mention should be a must, after all; C-64, even CPC and Spectrum conversions get at least mentioned, whilst Apple ][, VCS, 7800, A8 do not. That's just not right.

Most conversions differ from the arcades to start off with anyway.

Mayhem

07-07-2007, 07:05 PM

General thought on that? It's a UK mag with a UK writer, hence he'll most likely write on UK predominant format. Most people reading the magazine won't have played the games on those formats anyhow.

I'm not excusing it, just giving it rational.

Stu himself, by the way, would probably quote something witty or tell you fuck off btw...

idrougge

07-07-2007, 07:35 PM

Frogger II: Threeedeep!, in the magazine it is spelled 'Frogger 2:Threedeep' throughout the article. So he didn't even look at the game (box)?

It's quite normal to normalise titles with strange spelling in running text.

Otherwise I agree that RG is a haven of shoddy journalism and bad research. Its series of coverage of specific systems is repetitive and ridden with errors.

Mayhem

07-08-2007, 09:25 AM

TheRedEye

07-08-2007, 09:33 AM

Well thanks for dissing in one sentence the hard effort I put into writing the C64, N64 and Vectrex pieces then X_x

I can't speak for the other two, but I thought the C64 one was fantastic!

Mayhem

07-08-2007, 11:58 AM

Thanks :)

I always try and remember that most people only say something when it goes wrong... a lot of silent people who like what they read then I guess ;)

tom

07-08-2007, 12:16 PM

Stu himself, by the way, would probably quote something witty...

Stu, witty? I doubt it very much. As for 'fuck off' yes, I believe that would be the height of his vocabulary.

tom

07-08-2007, 12:29 PM

Well thanks for dissing in one sentence the hard effort I put into writing the C64, N64 and Vectrex pieces then X_x

Given obviously you think it's shoddy, why do you still read it, and whereas is actually, in general fact, doing better?

Perhaps we should get you to write something and then hack it pieces in front of your eyes... poor baby can't take the criticism? I've been in this game long enough to let most of it slide and just ignore it, for the only thing that really matters is why the people paying us to write it continue to do so.

If THEY were unhappy with it, then surely we wouldn't have jobs? :P

The C64 article was actually very good, Usually your writing is excellent, but you are in the know thanks to us at DP. (except your A8 and Apple ][ knowledge leaves a lot to be desired)
But I stress, the magazine cost GBP 4.99, I expect at least Threeedeep! to be spelled that way.
(Also in issue 34 RB questioned Mattel Aquarius: 'Downloading games in 1983?' Well, yes, that was nothing new, the VCS had been doing this in 1983 via Gameline already. This common knowledge even people at RG should know about ).

As for 'right' or 'wrong', you might wanna watch 'The Devil wears Prada' (conversation between Andrea and Nigel, when Andrea messed up). We can't worship and kiss your butt everytime you do a good job. That is your job, after all. You're supposed to get it right. You get money for this. We are here to critizise and elaborate on your mistakes.

tmc

07-08-2007, 01:05 PM

RG is a terrible, terrible magazine.

I received a subscription as a present about 7/8 months ago. I was delighted at first and thought it a great idea. But as the months go by i realise just how poor the journalism in this magazine really is.

Honestly, I also get 'edge' magazine which has had over the years some of the greatest peices and mini esseys i have ever read about videogames. After reading it each month it brings me to tears to go back to the 6th form, juvinile and just poor writing of this magazine.

I don't know if that is meant to be it's style and i don't mean to diss your work mayhem but that the way i feel about it. I honestly get better discussion and thoughts on videogames here on this forum then in that maghazine. It seems like rushed research and that the writers have just lifted all knowledge straight from the internet.

The Assembler article was pathetic, hyped and sensationalised. The thing is there was some interested bits in there but it was written with such a horrible forced style and the whole 'underground' thing felt so fake.

I would give kudos to the artwork and covers mind, they can be really great.

The last few months have become a quck flick through the pictures as they do raise a smile if i havn't played said game for a while but the writing i can take or leave.

sorry mayhem, but i won't be re-subscribing!

Edge magazine and here is my fix.

Mayhem

07-08-2007, 01:20 PM

tom

07-08-2007, 02:34 PM

Fair enough... a lot of people can't stand Edge's writing because it's so pompous, self inflated and up its arse. But I won't comment further heh... and quite often ill researched and written too. Damn, I said I'd stop. Bitter... nah? But Edge gets a lot of flack as well.

Besides most of what goes into RG doesn't come from the internet, all the Making Ofs, and behind the scenes stuff is from the actual people who were there or wrote the games... likewise the interviews.

The only real final word I generally ask is... if you think it's so bad, I'd appreciate seeing how well you can do yourself...

I could contribute, but I am not writing anymore (I ran my own fanzine in the UK for over 5 years ('87 - '92, Atari 8/16), written for many fanzines including Digital Press (USA), The 2600 Connection (USA), Retro Classix (UK), Portfolio Connection (UK), Atari Entertainment (UK), Lynx User (UK), and I was voted 'best writer of the year' by readers of Retrogames UK (late 90s), a best selling fanzine which ran over a period of 10 years. Further I contributed to one of the first Retro shows in London (wasn't even known as 'Retro' back then), attended and contributed to many UK exhibitions like AMS, held in Uttoxeter, RRL and so forth, and I am sleeping on 2500 (mostly) UK gaming magazines, starting from the early 80s. So I'd say I qualify.

Almost forgot: During the 80s/90s I used Atari XE/FDD, C128/FDD, Apple ][/FDD, all three running side by side, each on their own monitor.

Mayhem

07-08-2007, 04:03 PM

Well then a pity... because it sounds as if you'd be the perfect person to do an Atari or Apple piece then.

RG is a mostly UK, partly European centric publication by virtue of its writers and its readers. Hence it is inevitable that a lot of the content will be applicable to people in those regions. Having read many issues of DP myself, I don't think you'll be in a position to deny that the homespun fanzine here caters almost exclusively to American readers.

I see both of us as some of the few who have an expansive knowledge of a lot of different systems. Many people are not like that. Btw my previous comment was really directed at TMC, not yourself. I always say if you don't like what you read, then please have a go yourself and see if you can actually do any better. Most people shut up after that point.

I do have vague recollections of reading some issues of Retro Classix and Retrogames, as I knew both guys in charge of them and visited their shops (whilst they still existed, sadly neither any more). Maybe I read something by yourself then?

To be bluntly honest, the Atari and Apple were the merest of specs impression wise in the UK gaming market, and that I hope you concede is why neither get much mention. I've barely used an Apple II myself, maybe I'll ask the gf to hook hers up when I visit end of this month and we'll have a play through some games.

Since Imagine took over RG, I would agree the range of systems left to cover is starting to get thin. I wonder what most would make of an Apple II piece given so few people in the UK would have used one, but I figure everything deserves an equal coverage. Should it ever get to look at the Bally Astrocade or the RCA for example, then I know things are scraping the barrel ;)

japster

07-08-2007, 05:19 PM

I can't speak for the other two, but I thought the C64 one was fantastic!

Yep - I liked it too - Immensely - Was obviously written by a fan of the good ol' C64 (Still got mine, with all the extras, and an MMC64.. ...oh, and another 40-50 at present :-D ...and no, I'm not Bullsh*tting - Though erm... I may have bought one or two many! @_@) - Mind you, I didn't know Mayhem had written that article!...

...However.... What was with the Screenshots montage? - AARRGH!! - The C64 has FANTASTIC colours, but the whole thing was just a wash of grey, purple, and green!!! - I doubt it did Mayhem's hard work justice, and if anything, would have turned people off the good 'ol C64!!! - Grrr... As an avid RG subscriber and regular retro event attendee, I was *soooo* close to writing in an' having a moan, especially as the Speccie article got nice, vibrant colours on it's montage! (Hmmm... Bias? -Nooooo... I'd like to think it was just that the printers got it wrong... :roll:)

Other than that - Tosh! - I still like RG for what it IS - The only dedicated source for info (Nostalgaic AND Current) on my favourite era - I may not always agree with them, but hey - I didn't agree (by far!) with the ORIGINAL RG's top 100 :argue: , and dminishing page counts... (Though I DO miss those coverdiscs! :bawling: )

The main thing I don't get get on with in the new-look/feel RG is the constant onslaught of "witty" captions for pretty much every screenshot in there! - Like my fellow forumite above, I preferred the more dry/serious feel of the original RG, but again - I appreciate that some of the new guys actually enjoy/really feel for what they're doing, instead of it just being a job - I've pretty much met all of 'em at retro events, and unlike, say "Redeye" from Edge did, they are TRULY supportive, and don't go back to their word processor and start writing utter p*ss-taking drivel in the style of a PI/Reporter, just to p*ss on whatever the scene is currently trying to do for all of the true enthusiasts out there!

Mayhem? - I for one appreciate the time and effort you've put in for everybody's enjoyment, and it was great to meet you at last year's Retro Fusion (PS - A big THANKS to Chris too!) - good to meet everyone in fact, and having a laugh and a chat with Archer M. about Dropzone, IK+ and the good times in general, not to mention a top curry, was the icing on the cake - Keep it up guys! :-D

PS - I managed to get a SNES Proto/in-house pre-release cart of Wolfenstein 3D (PAL) amonst some other stuff the other day, complete with Japanese official Nintendo blank label (obviously with Wolfenstein 3D writtern on!) - Tried it, and works fine, so unsure of *how* complete it is!

Any of you guys know the best place to punt it purleeez? :-D

Cheers, and congrats on the forum/site!

Den/Japster...

tom

07-08-2007, 06:15 PM

>>>>>japster said: Other than that - Tosh! - I still like RG for what it IS - The only dedicated source for info (Nostalgaic AND Current) on my favourite era<<<<<

To end this: Yes, here's a newbie I agree with.

Mayhem

07-08-2007, 07:11 PM

Yep - I liked it too - Immensely - Was obviously written by a fan of the good ol' C64 (Still got mine, with all the extras, and an MMC64.. ...oh, and another 40-50 at present :-D ...and no, I'm not Bullsh*tting - Though erm... I may have bought one or two many! @_@) - Mind you, I didn't know Mayhem had written that article!...

...However.... What was with the Screenshots montage? - AARRGH!! - The C64 has FANTASTIC colours, but the whole thing was just a wash of grey, purple, and green!!! - I doubt it did Mayhem's hard work justice, and if anything, would have turned people off the good 'ol C64!!! - Grrr... As an avid RG subscriber and regular retro event attendee, I was *soooo* close to writing in an' having a moan, especially as the Speccie article got nice, vibrant colours on it's montage! (Hmmm... Bias? -Nooooo... I'd like to think it was just that the printers got it wrong... :roll:)

Thanks... always nice to hear compliments on your work. Many people don't know my real name heh... though it does get included at the start of every piece I do in RG. As for the screenshots, the same fate befell them as did the ones in the Vectrex piece, the transfer from PNG/GIF over to the colour scheme used in printing didn't go very well sadly...

smork

07-08-2007, 10:16 PM

I quite liked the Vectrex piece myself -- always had a soft spot for that system.

I guess I am in the minority when I say I like the new mag better than the old. The style was fine on the old, but it seemed there was too much coverage of systems I hadn't and never would play. Of course, that's because I didn't grow up in the UK...

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 01:57 AM

(I ran my own fanzine in the UK for over 5 years ('87 - '92, Atari 8/16), written for many fanzines including Digital Press (USA), The 2600 Connection (USA), Retro Classix (UK), Portfolio Connection (UK), Atari Entertainment (UK), Lynx User (UK), and I was voted 'best writer of the year' by readers of Retrogames UK (late 90s), a best selling fanzine which ran over a period of 10 years.

Then you've really got no excuse for making groundless and offensive insults against a professional writer. I'm afraid the problem you've identified here isn't so much "bad research" as "idiot reader syndrome" - you've kinda already proved that point for me by being the sort of anal-retentive spungo who gives a crap about the difference between "II" and "2" (Roman numerals look rubbish in print, confuse readers and should normally be avoided unless there's a specific and important reason for their use. Same goes for stupid affected spellings like "Threeedeep").

However, more pertinently on this occasion, you've failed to either read (the numerous times it's been explained) or figure out for yourself (as anyone with an IQ over double figures could do from reading any one of the Definitive pieces) the fact that The Definitive... doesn't even attempt to cover every single release in a series on every single format. Such a feature would be 20 pages long and incredibly dull to read. (Nor do we cover unofficial homebrew releases like Jaguar Gorf, or the features would be 50 pages long, Or about 200 in the case of Lode Runner.)

The Definitive... has two purposes, oft stated. One is to clear up the tangled mess of confusion and misinformation that surrounds series like Wonder Boy, Gradius and Bubble Bobble. The other is to catalogue interesting developments in gameplay and design throughout a franchise's history, often in obscure releases that nobody's heard of. To appear in the Definitive articles, a version of a game has to either have some unique gameplay feature, or at a pinch something particularly interesting about the story of its development.

Magazine space is finite, and nobody needs or wants to waste half a precious page hearing about 10 conversions of the first Frogger on 10 different formats that all play exactly the same, when the space could be used to tell them something vastly more informative and entertaining instead, like a prototype sequel that was never released but can now be played on emulators. I have nothing against Atari formats - the forthcoming Definitive Space Invaders, for example, includes extremely extensive coverage of Atari-format versions of the game because there's something interesting about them, not because some spoddy, whiny fanboy wants to have his personal favourites acknowledged/vindicated.

I'm perfectly aware of the Atari 7800 versions of Galaga and Xevious, indeed I own the original carts of both. However, the very fact that they're excellent, faithful conversions means they're of no interest to The Definitive, because there's nothing about them that isn't already covered by the entry on the original coin-op. If all you want is a product list, there are plenty of places to find one. (The very website you're posting this on isn't a bad start, though its standards fall well short of what's acceptable to The Definitive.) At RG we prefer to spend our time telling people things they don't already know. The Definitive... has been doing that for the last 17 months, and everyone but you seems to be extremely happy with it, which is why it keeps getting re-commissioned.

Oh, and as for "proper research"? I devote weeks of research to Definitive pieces, rather than just cut-and-pasting from Wikipedia and crappy fansites like most idiot gaming hacks (including those of Edge, which makes more factual errors in an average issue than RG has in its entire history), which is why they're called Definitive. If you can find ONE SINGLE FACTUAL ERROR (ie not some ridiculously pathetic Roman-numerals gripe) in the 100+ pages of Definitives published so far - just ONE - then come back here and share it with us, and maybe your views will be worth half an atom of respect. Until then, Comic Book Guy, as someone's already so wisely suggested: fuck off.

Cheerio!
RSC.

Ed Oscuro

07-09-2007, 02:15 AM

Hey, Stuart uses parens as much as I do, so I'm in good company.

*high fives*

If anybody wants to see some writing that really needs some work, check this Shmups Forum thread (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=15097) out.

Maybe some people don't like that I usually stuck up for Zach M. and others, but I always find it refreshing when somebody who knows the writer's craft pays a little attention to our forlorn hobby - compare your local Barnes & Overpriced stocks of Depression Glass and video game buying guides. Knowing stuff...that's a bonus.

Anyway, I intended to write this earlier, but: people are being really harsh on this one. Is the Threeedeep -> Threedeep criticism the major thing levied against the article? That's not a lot to go on.

For my part I always try to stay as close to the often silly originals with game titles, but I think Stuart's explanation holds water (and boils it too).

p.s. let's all smoke a bowl...er forget this anger, and move onto playing for the same team again, please?

smork

07-09-2007, 02:47 AM

If anybody wants to see some writing that really needs some work, check this Shmups Forum thread (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=15097) out.

Wow, I can't even make it through that article.

Ed Oscuro

07-09-2007, 03:31 AM

tom

07-09-2007, 04:32 AM

Same goes for stupid affected spellings like "Threeedeep").

Cheerio!
RSC.

And there's where your professionalism goes right down the pan. And it's your first posting too. Shame.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 04:41 AM

And there's where your professionalism goes right down the pan. And it's your first posting too. Shame.

What on Earth are you gibbering about now?

tom

07-09-2007, 04:59 AM

Difficult to grasp? You're not one of those then:>>>(anyone with an IQ over double figures<<<

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 05:06 AM

smork

07-09-2007, 06:17 AM

Note, that article doesn't reflect on the intelligence of the SHMUPS Forum regular, come join the fun ;)

Great avatar, smork! George C. Scott/Gen. Turgidson, RIP. A bit off the subject, but I did a search and turned this (http://greg.org/archive/2006/08/21/but_hell_hell_see_the_big_board.html) up, funny stuff.

That's a pretty funny article. I sure hope we aren't allowing a mine shaft gap, either.

You know, I was going to join SHMUPS last year or so when there was a Judgement Silversword discussion ongoing, but they didn't like my Yahoo mail account so I got discouraged. I should go register again...

Ed Oscuro

07-09-2007, 06:35 AM

Actually, one of the questions I sent to the Contra 4 devs mentions a gap - eh, you'll have to see it; nothing too spectacular but I think the reference is a good one.

Tom: Let up on the guy already! I'm not saying you don't have a right to fixate on the number of letter Es in a row be correct each time the title appears, but damned if I can't think of a number of better ways to communicate that concern...

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with refusing to play along with the marketing game (even if Threeedeep is older) - witness STALKER. Hell, writing it as all caps is annoying enough, but I refuse to put a period after every first letter. The game's already had enough of my time and money, I'm not going the extra mile every time I want to write about it (which is actually rather often).

Anyway, we have our answer to that question.

tom

07-09-2007, 06:47 AM

[QUOTE=Rev. Stuart Campbell;1210045]Do YOU even know what you're talking about?

I don't have all day to waste with your desperate attempts to cover up the idiocy of your first post. "Threeedeep" IS a stupid affected spelling, and most grown-up magazines wouldn't indulge it. Crappy fanzines written by anal fanboys, maybe, but no respectable newsstand publication. And seriously, if one nitpicking spelling quibble is the best evidence you've got to accuse someone of "worst writing/research", then you really do need to fuck off before you embarrass yourself any further.QUOTE]

I'm not embarrassing myself (Haven't done so from the start if you'd care to pay attention). You're the one having to resort to abuse.

Anyway, Ed's right as usual. I let up on the (poor) guy before he sinks even further.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 07:26 AM

So YOU don't know what you're going on about either? Splendid.

Ta-ra!

anagrama

07-09-2007, 07:50 AM

Heh. Funny shit.
Must admit, I quite liked Matt's articles & the 'Definitive...' articles that I've read. Other areas of the mag are somewhat lacking though (case in point: the 10-page price guide in every issue isn't worth the paper it's written on).

blue lander

07-09-2007, 08:56 AM

An article that just rattles through every unremarkable port of a game would probably make for pretty boring read, especially if you start throwing in every obscure Japanese computer they were ported to. If you really wanted a definitive list of a game like Galaxian, you'd have to throw in stuff like the PC-6001/PC-88/PC-98/MSX/SMC-777/FM-7/MZ-700/MZ-1500/X1/JR-100/etc ad nauseum.

I didn't read the column in question, but speaking of Galaxian, One of my favorite versions is the Cassette Vision one. The graphics are incredibly crude (as with all Cassette Vision games), but I find it keeps my interest far longer than one of the more accurate ports.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/cvs/odyssey/videogames/cv/soft/galaxian/cv_g_02.jpg

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 09:28 AM

If you really wanted a definitive list of a game like Galaxian, you'd have to throw in stuff like the PC-6001/PC-88/PC-98/MSX/SMC-777/FM-7/MZ-700/MZ-1500/X1/JR-100/etc ad nauseum.

Dude, I totally hope you haven't got the wrong punctuation in any of those, or Tom will be mad.

blue lander

07-09-2007, 09:55 AM

Now that I think about it, I think I used unicode symbol U+002D for the dash in SMC-777 when everybody knows the correct dash is U+208B! Please disregard my comments, everyone, I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 10:09 AM

You scum.

fishsandwich

07-09-2007, 12:42 PM

I love this mag and look forward to getting it at my local Barnes & Noble. I don't know exactly when it comes in so I check once a week... it's almost like Christmas when I see a new one on the shelf (a small Christmas, anyway.)

I knew NOTHING about the UK computer scene until I starting reading it... it's gaming from a new perspective. That price guide that's always in there could use some updating but that's the only real issue I have with the magazine.

I still like EGM ok and PLAY is decent enough except you can't trust PLAY's reviews worth a shit.

GamePro is juvenile and I don't like it or read it.

I'm done now.

blue lander

07-09-2007, 01:24 PM

I knew NOTHING about the UK computer scene until I starting reading it... it's gaming from a new perspective.

I used to love reading Games(tm) for the same reason. It got me into collecting Spectrum, Amstrad, and Acorn games. At first I thought "what's so great about a computer with pre-Commodore 64 graphics, no floppy drive, virtually no sound/music, puny color palette a chicklet keyboard, and no standard joystick?" But after playing great games by Hewson (especially anything by Raffaele Cecco) and Ultimate PTG, it really blows away most of the C64 games I've played.

It's funny when they make grandiose statements about games like Ant Attack 3D or Chuckie Egg being among "the most influential games of all time" when most gamers worldwide have never even heard of them. One article I read went as far as to suggest that Manic Miner was a direct inspiration for Super Mario Bros! Sometimes I don't think they realize how isolated the UK gaming scene was.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 01:55 PM

It's funny when they make grandiose statements about games like Ant Attack 3D or Chuckie Egg being among "the most influential games of all time" when most gamers worldwide have never even heard of them.

What do those two statements have to do with each other? Gamers don't write the games, man.

Vectorman0

07-09-2007, 02:22 PM

Tom, you're being pretty harsh over one normalized name. I do think that a paragraph could be used to mention the multitude of releases any series has seen.

That said, I think the magazine is great (infinitely better than any North American magazine) and I can't complain about a single thing other than the subscription cost in the US ($160). It isn't overly unreasonable, but beyond my means.

If all you want is a product list, there are plenty of places to find one. (The very website you're posting this on isn't a bad start, though its standards fall well short of what's acceptable to The Definitive.) What would be an acceptable alternative?

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 02:31 PM

What would be an acceptable alternative?

I haven't found a single totally reliable one. DP is pretty good, but misses a lot of stuff (at least three Space Invaders games on the Playstation 1, for example), Mobygames catches some of the gaps but makes glaring errors of its own (you wouldn't believe the number of games they have me down as co-author of), Wikipedia is often very good but almost as often full of repeated fallacies from elsewhere, and so on and so forth. Ultimately, all you can do it try to gather information from many different sources and see how they tie up with each other, and the only way to be absolutely sure is to buy the games for yourself and then write features about them in Retro Gamer for everyone except Tom to enjoy.

blue lander

07-09-2007, 02:35 PM

I have a hard time imagining how developers in Japan and the US, where the majority of games are developed today, could be directly influenced by games that were developed for computers that weren't released outside of Europe. There are exceptions, of course. Jet Set Willy was released for on MSX by Hudson on a Beecard, and a handful of Ultimate PTG and Synapse games were released on the MSX and Famicom Disk System, but if you do a google search of the Japanese titles they were released under you'll find one or two hits tops. I really doubt someone like Miyamoto was even dimly aware of them.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather play the early 80's Spectrum games from the UK or some of the trippy stuff that came out of France and Spain for the Amstrad CPC than the garbage that was being released in the US at the time, but from what I understand the British game industry died out with the Amiga, and claims to being "influential" along with it.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 02:48 PM

So is Grand Theft Auto not "influential", to name the first example that comes to my mind?

blue lander

07-09-2007, 03:12 PM

Unfortunately it is, but I don't know if one or two games by British developers really qualify the entire British game industry as influential, at least not the way it used to be...

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 03:23 PM

Well, you're shifting the goalposts now. The comment I replied to was "It's funny when they make grandiose statements about games like Ant Attack 3D or Chuckie Egg being among "the most influential games of all time" when most gamers worldwide have never even heard of them."

I just pointed out that gamers not having heard of something is no barrier whatsoever to it being influential. I'm not especially interested in arguing whether British developers are still influential now, because I don't care anywhere near enough to investigate. A game's a game.

Mayhem

07-09-2007, 03:37 PM

DP is pretty good, but misses a lot of stuff (at least three Space Invaders games on the Playstation 1, for example)

DP is primarily a US website, and hopefully everything released in that country should be complete. The other regions are still working their way towards that, after all a list is only as good as the person(s) putting it together and the amount of time they can devote...

blue lander

07-09-2007, 03:39 PM

Fair enough. For a second there I thought you were implying that Chuckie Egg influenced GTA. I wouldn't call the original GTA one of the most influential games of all time just because it influenced a genuinely influential game like GTA3, though. Nor would I call Atic Attack one of the most influential games of all time just because it may have influenced Rare's later work like Donkey Kong Country that people outside the UK actually played. But arguing about it is about as entertaining as arguing about the correct spelling of an obscure Frogger game.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 04:03 PM

Um, GTA3 was made by a British team too. (The same one, in fact.)

blue lander

07-09-2007, 04:16 PM

I know, but I thought your point was that a game doesn't have to be played by a bunch of people to be influential, such as GTA. The game itself wasn't that popular, but it was influential since lead to GTA3, which people did play and lead to all sorts of sequels and spinoffs and copycats. The same way nobody over here played Chuckie Egg, but it may have influenced games that influenced other games that ultimately influenced a game that somebody over here actually played.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-09-2007, 04:44 PM

I know, but I thought your point was that a game doesn't have to be played by a bunch of people to be influential,

That was (and still is) my point, yes. The mention of GTA was in connection with a somewhat separate point.

fennec fox

07-12-2007, 11:30 AM

Wow, this is the second Retro Gamer writer to meltdown on the DP forums, isn't it? We must be doing something right.

Between one writer telling readers to "fuck off" and another claiming that Americans can't understand his amazing satire, I wonder if they want any overseas readers at all.

Mayhem

07-12-2007, 11:35 AM

Ah, you mis-read my post. I was aliterating to Stu, if he had been here at that point, would tell others to... well you see that. I don't. In general :p

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-12-2007, 12:31 PM

Between one writer telling readers to "fuck off" and another claiming that Americans can't understand his amazing satire, I wonder if they want any overseas readers at all.

Told ONE reader to fuck off, because he was being an arsehole. Which is what most people do when they encounter arseholes.

Are you an arsehole? If so, you can fuck off too. Everyone else is just super as far as I'm concerned.

tom

07-12-2007, 01:56 PM

.......

Alison DeMeyer

07-12-2007, 02:00 PM

With interest I read this thread.
I think being a journalist is just like a 'normal' job, some people take pride in their work, others just don't care.
I read Mr. Campbell belongs to the latter.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-12-2007, 02:09 PM

With interest I read this thread.
I think being a journalist is just like a 'normal' job, some people take pride in their work, others just don't care.
I read Mr. Campbell belongs to the latter.

Yes, that's right. I get upset when clueless ignorant dickheads slag me off on the internet because I don't care.

What is it, International Fuckwit Day today or something? (I see GW Bush is giving a speech on the telly currently, so it's a possibility.)

horseboy

07-12-2007, 02:33 PM

(I see GW Bush is giving a speech on the telly currently, so it's a possibility.)

Are you still mad that we won that war?

tom

07-12-2007, 02:35 PM

To change the subject, (well sort of):

I reckon your Definitive....Lode Runner was excellent (and I am sorry too).

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-12-2007, 03:23 PM

Are you still mad that we won that war?

You won a war?

idrougge

07-12-2007, 03:49 PM

Well thanks for dissing in one sentence the hard effort I put into writing the C64, N64 and Vectrex pieces then X_x

I don't think I've read any one of those, except possibly the Vectrex piece, which I can't comment on because it was so long ago. But I have no bad memories of it.

Given obviously you think it's shoddy, why do you still read it, and whereas is actually, in general fact, doing better?

I don't "read" RG. I pick it up when I go by train, because the headlines seem so attractive. Then I give it away because I feel cheated. There is just so little hard content. If the magazine does better, which doesn't really surprise me, it's because your average reader isn't so hard-core, perhaps just looking for a nostalgia kick.

Perhaps we should get you to write something and then hack it pieces in front of your eyes... poor baby can't take the criticism? I've been in this game long enough to let most of it slide and just ignore it, for the only thing that really matters is why the people paying us to write it continue to do so.

I'm a full-time journalist, not some kid off the street. I've been in this game long enough to criticise other writers.

If THEY were unhappy with it, then surely we wouldn't have jobs? :P

Sadly, you can't count me to "them".

horseboy

07-12-2007, 03:53 PM

You won a war?

A couple of hundred years ago.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-12-2007, 04:02 PM

I don't "read" RG. I pick it up when I go by train, because the headlines seem so attractive. Then I give it away because I feel cheated. There is just so little hard content. If the magazine does better, which doesn't really surprise me, it's because your average reader isn't so hard-core, perhaps just looking for a nostalgia kick.

People can not like RG, not enjoy the writing style, be unhappy about the particular games or formats it chooses to cover, think it's biased towards the UK... but "so little hard content" is THE most ridiculously, self-evidently wrong thing I've ever heard anyone say about it. I research the living crap out of the Definitive features, and I'm constantly surprised by what I find out in the other pieces every month, and I've been in the games business professionally for the best part of 20 years. What on Earth do you consider "hard content"?

idrougge

07-12-2007, 04:02 PM

I don't have all day to waste with your desperate attempts to cover up the idiocy of your first post. "Threeedeep" IS a stupid affected spelling, and most grown-up magazines wouldn't indulge it. Crappy fanzines written by anal fanboys, maybe, but no respectable newsstand publication.

I agree with Campbell here. If anyone should learn to spell, it's Parker Brothers.

blue lander

07-12-2007, 04:04 PM

To change the subject, (well sort of):

I reckon your Definitive....Lode Runner was excellent (and I am sorry too).

Running with the whole "Change the subject" theme, Lode Runner does have a pretty interesting history. An article on how Lode Runner and Bomberman are interrelated would be an interesting read, too.

Kitsune Sniper

07-12-2007, 04:15 PM

... Mobygames catches some of the gaps but makes glaring errors of its own (you wouldn't believe the number of games they have me down as co-author of)

If you want to have those errors corrected, then drop us a line (I'm an approver there and a frequent contributor as well). There's lots of people with the same name, and sometimes mistakes are made when credits are contributed. If you let us know, then we'll fix the problem.

I don't really care for the rest of this post, I just don't like to see Moby get bashed. :p

Cav

07-12-2007, 04:22 PM

Do YOU even know what you're talking about?

I don't have all day to waste with your desperate attempts to cover up the idiocy of your first post. "Threeedeep" IS a stupid affected spelling, and most grown-up magazines wouldn't indulge it. Crappy fanzines written by anal fanboys, maybe, but no respectable newsstand publication. And seriously, if one nitpicking spelling quibble is the best evidence you've got to accuse someone of "worst writing/research", then you really do need to fuck off before you embarrass yourself any further.

(After all, you're hardly in a position to hairsplit other people's use of grammar - "worst writing/research"? What does that even mean? Worse than what? Worst since when? Worst out of who?)

...but....that's how it's spelled. It has nothing to do with being "affected" or fanboyism. It's how it's spelled and it's not the job of the journalist to change it. It's his or her job to be accurate. Or am I missing something here? Did you make any changes like "Cue Burt" or "Pack, Man" or "Monkey Kong"?

To mods: Please please don't ban this guy. Defensive writers are one of the greatest sources of entertainment in the world.

My advice to the good Reverend would be to grow a thicker skin and let it all roll off.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-12-2007, 04:27 PM

...but....that's how it's spelled. It has nothing to do with being "affected" or fanboyism. It's how it's spelled and it's not the job of the journalist to change it.

Iiiit isssss iffffffffffffffffffffff thhhhhhhhhhhattttt's wwwhhhatttttt iiiiiitttt saaaaaaaaayssssssssssssss iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinn tthhhhhhhhe sttttyllllllllle guuuuuuuuuiddde.

Cav

07-12-2007, 04:37 PM

Iiiit isssss iffffffffffffffffffffff thhhhhhhhhhhattttt's wwwhhhatttttt iiiiiitttt saaaaaaaaayssssssssssssss iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinn tthhhhhhhhe sttttyllllllllle guuuuuuuuuiddde.

Wow! Fantastic reply.

You are arguing two different things. If it's in the publication's style guide or the editor changes it that's one thing. But you are arguing that the word is pretentious and shouldn't even exist to begin with. Sorry, but as a writer that's not your call.

But I can play by your rule. From here on out "Digital Press" will be known as "Electronic Press" because "Digital" sounds too high-tech and is condescending. I decree this because I am a genius and what I say goes. Thank you. Anyone who calls it "Digital" from now on is a fanboy. Carry on.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

07-12-2007, 04:52 PM

Wow! Fantastic reply.

You are arguing two different things. If it's in the publication's style guide or the editor changes it that's one thing. But you are arguing that the word is pretentious and shouldn't even exist to begin with. Sorry, but as a writer that's not your call.

What is and isn't my call isn't your call. We didn't tolerate sTupIdWaNKySpeLlIngS in Amiga Power on a point of principle and unfortunately for anyone who used them, they had no control over what we did and didn't print, just like I can't actually stop them from putting "Threeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeede ep" on the game box if they want to. But as a professional language user, I'm fucked if I'm going to co-operate in its mangling by marketing dicks. If you don't like it, you're perfectly at liberty to write "ThreEEEeEeEEeEEeeEeEeEEeeeEEEeeeEEEEEEEeEeeeeeEEEe eEEeEdeep" all you want, but I won't be joining in.

horseboy

07-12-2007, 04:52 PM

...but....that's how it's spelled. It has nothing to do with being "affected" or fanboyism. It's how it's spelled and it's not the job of the journalist to change it. It's his or her job to be accurate. Or am I missing something here? Did you make any changes like "Cue Burt" or "Pack, Man" or "Monkey Kong"?

To mods: Please please don't ban this guy. Defensive writers are one of the greatest sources of entertainment in the world.

My advice to the good Reverend would be to grow a thicker skin and let it all roll off.

This is the most correct thing that has been written here yet. Either this guy is the biggest dimwit in the entire world and actually thought he was supposed to correct a misspelling in a title, or he didn't do as thorough research as he suggested and he is trying to defend himself. I am leaning towards the latter on this one. Nobody is stupid enough to actually think that you are supposed to correct an intentionally misspelled title, that is just ridiculous.

It was meant to be a witty take on the word threedeep by adding a third "e". Whether you think it is witty or stupid is up to you. Whether or not it is the actual title is not up to you.

But wait, there's more. This next tidbit will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, throw your whole arguement right out the window. I suspect it may land right next to your integrity. You say that you took the third "e" out to correct the spelling, right? This is your whole arguement here, right? Well then why didn't you actually correct it? Threedeep, with 2 e's or 3 e's is not a word. I looked in 5 dictionaries just to make sure because I figured you couldn't be that damn stupid, but, alas, you are that damn stupid. If you wanted to correct it, you should have written it "Three Deep" or "Three-Deep."

So, now you have absolutely no arguement left (I see it laying on the curb right next to your credibility). Maybe you could just resort to calling people arseholes or telling them to fuck off. Shit, too late.