"Serious Games"

[digitalpress]

A reporter is in my store right now looking to do a piece on serious games, categorized as games that are used for educational or social purposes. She cited the game "You've been ICED" (I Can End Deportation) by a company called Games For Change, which focuses on lives of immigrants.

OK folks, I have no info to offer here but told her I'd post it here to this varied group. Are you familiar with any other games of this type? Familiar enough to describe? Have you used any as actual training?

I'll need your name and if you have an abundance of knowledge on the subject, PM me so I can share contact info between you and her.

[Snapple]

So does she want educational games, or political propaganda games? Those are two different things to me.

I got Mario is Missing. That's educational. So is Number Munchers. And CAPTAIN NOVOLIN, heh heh.

[Apollo]

A reporter is in my store right now looking to do a piece on serious games, categorized as games that are used for educational or social purposes. She cited the game "You've been ICED" (I Can End Deportation) by a company called Games For Change, which focuses on lives of immigrants.

OK folks, I have no info to offer here but told her I'd post it here to this varied group. Are you familiar with any other games of this type? Familiar enough to describe? Have you used any as actual training?

I'll need your name and if you have an abundance of knowledge on the subject, PM me so I can share contact info between you and her.

I can remember that ther was a pro-Christian ( or is it Catholic? I can never tell the difference) RTS game for the PC that came out a while back called "Left Behind", or something close to that. Basically it was about killing everything that God seemed unfit after a chosen few went to Hevaen, and Armageddon followed. It included killing, or "converting" homosexuals, interracial couples. It was horribly racist. One of the reasons I love Atheism.

Edit: BTW, my name is Nick, I would prefer to not have my last name mentioned as of now, and I would be more than interested in talking to her about this.

[Richter Belmount]

Why doesnt she cite the kkk and Iran propaganda video games?


The so called serious games , seem tasteless or disgusting. Infact I dont even think they should be called serious games , because its not something a actual gamer or serious gamer would enjoy.

[digitalpress]

Why doesnt she cite the kkk and Iran propaganda video games?


The so called serious games , seem tasteless or disgusting. Infact I dont even think they should be called serious games , because its not something a actual gamer or serious gamer would enjoy.

I agree - and the info on the ICED game she brought sounded like a pretty poor attempt to "educate" anyone. It allows the gamer to jump turnstiles, steal newspapers, etc.

Opinions nonwithstanding, she's looking for info so if you've got any, please share it here.

Apollo, I'll PM you separately, thanks.

[Bassgrabber]

I'd think the Lightspan Educational game series would be appropriate from the little I've read of them.

[crazyjackcsa]

Sounds like she has already formed an opinion,which is negative based on her example, and is looking for facts to back it up. Shoddy journalisim at best. I'd be wary. The DP store could be painted in very negative strokes.

[Apollo]

I couldn't find anything on "You've been ICED", the only things that came up were about the US Immigration and something or other department.

I recently talked with her, and she's planning on getting back to me "within the hour" due top her being on the road. I have a few pages up for references, so I hopefully don't sound like an idiot.

Sounding like an idiot and being one are two different things. A good ruse can defy even the most obvious truth.

Edit: Is anyone taking requests for me to bring up? Seriously though, if you have something you want to be heard, I'll do my best to get it out there. Nothing stupid, of course.

[blissfulnoise]

If I understand right, it seems that “serious” games isn’t quite the moniker you'd want to use. It seems more along the lines of games that promote a specific type of social consciousness or bring awareness to an agenda or point of view.

Interestingly enough, most of these games are freely available on the web (or sponsored by donations anyway), in so far as there would be virtually no market for them otherwise. They typically tend to be fairly simple and heavily biased towards the author(s) personal opinions on the subject at hand.

Well one of the most famous examples would probably be Super Columbine Massacre RPG. (http://www.columbinegame.com) A lot of people hold this game in contempt for it's subject matter but it's a very interesting project designed to question the whole moral stewpot around that tragic event.

The Marriage (http://www.rodvik.com/rodgames) is more of a "games as art" project, but it has some overlap in this genre of "agenda" games. It's meant to be played with no knowledge at all and serves as a digital metaphor for marriage.

The ReDistricting Game (http://www.redistrictinggame.org) is another interesting example which puts players in the role of gerrymandering an area to play to your political parties strengths.

And you might be able to even make a case for America's Army (http://www.americasarmy.com/) given it's backstory. While, for the most part, it plays like a straight up FPS, it is designed around propaganda with the sole focus of military recruitment. It's also pretty fun and actually had a retail(ish) release which makes it quite unique.

Let me know if I'm off base with these suggestions. It's an interesting "side" genre of video games that's just now getting some play in the media at large. I'm assuming your patron is collecting this data for a research paper of some type. I'd be interested in seeing the final product.

[Nebagram]

Carmen Sandiego & friends was what immediately sprang to mind when the term 'educational games' sprang to mind. I've seen a lot of educational 'games' whilst studying for my degree in, erm, education, and Carmen stands out as easily the best example production-wise of the lot. Tragic, really.

In terms of 'serious' games, might Super Columbine Massacre RPG be an example of what she was thinking of?

[Apollo]

If I understand right, it seems that “serious” games isn’t quite the moniker you'd want to use. It seems more along the lines of games that promote a specific type of social consciousness or bring awareness to an agenda or point of view.

Interestingly enough, most of these games are freely available on the web (or sponsored by donations anyway), in so far as there would be virtually no market for them otherwise. They typically tend to be fairly simple and heavily biased towards the author(s) personal opinions on the subject at hand.

Well one of the most famous examples would probably be Super Columbine Massacre RPG. (http://www.columbinegame.com) A lot of people hold this game in contempt for it's subject matter but it's a very interesting project designed to question the whole moral stewpot around that tragic event.

The Marriage (http://www.rodvik.com/rodgames) is more of a "games as art" project, but it has some overlap in this genre of "agenda" games. It's meant to be played with no knowledge at all and serves as a digital metaphor for marriage.

The ReDistricting Game (http://www.redistrictinggame.org) is another interesting example which puts players in the role of gerrymandering an area to play to your political parties strengths.

And you might be able to even make a case for America's Army (http://www.americasarmy.com/) given it's backstory. While, for the most part, it plays like a straight up FPS, it is designed around propaganda with the sole focus of military recruitment. It's also pretty fun and actually had a retail(ish) release which makes it quite unique.

Let me know if I'm off base with these suggestions. It's an interesting "side" genre of video games that's just now getting some play in the media at large. I'm assuming your patron is collecting this data for a research paper of some type. I'd be interested in seeing the final product.

Thats pretty much what I was under the impression of by "Serious Games". Games that were designed to push forward either an idea, a lifestyle, or which were intended to educate. However, in the latter case, they seem mostly to be trying to push an idea, such as a religion. Great list, though, I'll check em out real quick.

Also, i was trying to find SCMRPG for a while. Thanks for the link!

[blissfulnoise]

I should have mentioned this site too:

Water Cooler Games (http://www.watercoolergames.org) is a site dedicated to discussion and promotion of games with a message. The site also spawned a book, Persuasive Games: The Expressive Power of Videogames, that can be purchased from Amazon. I haven't read it, but it's on my to do list.

I'll also add V-Tech Rampage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-Tech_Rampage) (I linked the Wikipedia page since the host site is apparently down). It's exactly the opposite of what most "agenda" games seek to accomplish but is worthy of holding up for discourse for that reason. A cheap, crude flash shooter, with no moral or ethical message or purpose, based on the Virginia Tech shootings; the author asked for a $2000 donation to take the game down from his website. For another $1000 he'd apologize for making it.

[Apollo]

I just got off the phone with the reporter, heres the PM i sent to Joe, since I don't feel like typing now :image:

Hey Joe, (Man I love that song!)

I just got off the phone with the reporter, and I hope I didn't sound like too much of a tool. Nah, just kidding. She seemed completely unaware of the gaming world, so she didn't come in with a bias towards anything. I felt a bit nervous, and I probably even repeated some things more than I should have. Oh well. She was saying that this might be published Thursday, so keep an eye out!


I also told her about Super Columbine Massacre RPG, and why people should view it beyond what they see it as. :2gunfire:

Maybe that graphic shoudn't go there....

[digitalpress]

Sounds like she has already formed an opinion,which is negative based on her example, and is looking for facts to back it up. Shoddy journalisim at best. I'd be wary. The DP store could be painted in very negative strokes.

She wasn't biased - sorry if I gave that impression. It was ME commenting on the info about that ICED game, not her. So yeah, we might be painted in negative strokes but quite frankly I think it sucks that the game (at least by its description) wasn't offering any useful "educational" scenarios.

[Apollo]

Why would we be "painted in negative strokes"?

[crazyjackcsa]

Why would we be "painted in negative strokes"?


The way I read the post was that she was looking for games that pushed an agenda, under the guise of "serious" games. she comes up with a bunch of "serious" games like the JFK assasination game, the columbine game, and other such games like that. then you take a quote out of context as: "We have lots of serious games here at the DP store" Says Joe,owner of the DP store. And bLAM! Easy as that, The store supports crazy people making "serious" games.

[digitalpress]

The way I read the post was that she was looking for games that pushed an agenda, under the guise of "serious" games. she comes up with a bunch of "serious" games like the JFK assasination game, the columbine game, and other such games like that. then you take a quote out of context as: "We have lots of serious games here at the DP store" Says Joe,owner of the DP store. And bLAM! Easy as that, The store supports crazy people making "serious" games.

Don't sweat it. Our store has a very good relationship with the Herald News. This is the fourth time we've been called upon for info and/or quotes. They're very professional and have been right on the money with their quotes so far.

[Apollo]

The way I read the post was that she was looking for games that pushed an agenda, under the guise of "serious" games. she comes up with a bunch of "serious" games like the JFK assasination game, the columbine game, and other such games like that. then you take a quote out of context as: "We have lots of serious games here at the DP store" Says Joe,owner of the DP store. And bLAM! Easy as that, The store supports crazy people making "serious" games.

If thats what your worried about, then you shouldn't be worried at all.

[8-bitNesMan]

It was horribly racist. One of the reasons I love Atheism.

Really not trying to start somethin, but that statement reeks of hypocrisy and it offends me. Being a Christian does not make someone a racist. Do what you gotta do for yourself, but don't pigeonhole me or anyone else whose beliefs are different from your own. Thanks...

[ubersaurus]

Would the old military trainer version of Battlezone count?

I'd wonder if the decidedly "question authority" message of beyond good and evil would count.

[Apollo]

Really not trying to start somethin, but that statement reeks of hypocrisy and it offends me. Being a Christian does not make someone a racist. Do what you gotta do for yourself, but don't pigeonhole me or anyone else whose beliefs are different from your own. Thanks...

Woah woah woah, your reading into that wrong. I'm talking about a game that pushed it's beliefs to the point of the objective was to kill or convert anyone who didn't follow the same beliefs as you. If anything, they were being ignorant, when one of the Ten Commandments is to "Love Thy Neighbor". But thats neither here nor there. I never implied that because someone is of any religion gives them any certain qualities, be they good or bad. I respect peoples rights to practice any religion they choose, but I find it to be too restricting for me, which is why I said that I was glad that I am an Atheist. I never meant to offend anyone, but if you were, I apologize.

[Kid Ice]

There was a special on CNBC a few months ago called "Game On!" (of all things). It was the standard history of videogames type of thing w/ the usual suspects. Anyway, toward the end they show this kid with cancer who designed a game about fighting cancer. Maybe someone remembers the name of that one? If not I have it recorded so I can check later.

[Apollo]

There was a special on CNBC a few months ago called "Game On!" (of all things). It was the standard history of videogames type of thing w/ the usual suspects. Anyway, toward the end they show this kid with cancer who designed a game about fighting cancer. Maybe someone remembers the name of that one? If not I have it recorded so I can check later.

Please do! The person i talked to gave me her number, so I'll call her up if you can get the name to me and I'll tell her about it. Sounds awesome.

[8-bitNesMan]

Woah woah woah, your reading into that wrong. I'm talking about a game that pushed it's beliefs to the point of the objective was to kill or convert anyone who didn't follow the same beliefs as you. If anything, they were being ignorant, when one of the Ten Commandments is to "Love Thy Neighbor". But thats neither here nor there. I never implied that because someone is of any religion gives them any certain qualities, be they good or bad. I respect peoples rights to practice any religion they choose, but I find it to be too restricting for me, which is why I said that I was glad that I am an Atheist. I never meant to offend anyone, but if you were, I apologize.

Appreciate it. If I overreacted to your post, then my bad.

[Pantechnicon]

And you might be able to even make a case for America's Army (http://www.americasarmy.com/) given it's backstory. While, for the most part, it plays like a straight up FPS, it is designed around propaganda with the sole focus of military recruitment. It's also pretty fun and actually had a retail(ish) release which makes it quite unique.

There's a lesser known game along these same lines that was produced by the Marine Corps called Camp Marine. Interestingly, it's more of a knock-off of Myst than anything else (one wouldn't imagine that the Marines would go for a puzzle-solving game as a recruiting tool). You walk around this little virtual Marine base, entering buildings and solving puzzles. If you don't solve certain problems fast enough, little Drill Instructors appear and start yelling clues at you. Pretty funny stuff.

Oof. Gotta go on a tangent here, sorry...


I can remember that ther was a pro-Christian ( or is it Catholic? I can never tell the difference) RTS game for the PC that came out a while back called "Left Behind", or something close to that. Basically it was about killing everything that God seemed unfit after a chosen few went to Hevaen, and Armageddon followed. It included killing, or "converting" homosexuals, interracial couples. It was horribly racist. One of the reasons I love Atheism.

1. First, what it is about atheism that you believe makes one less susceptible to racism than religion? (EDIT - looks like you may have already answered this, albeit weakly)

2. I've never played this game, but I'm familiar with the book series on which it is based and I would like to see some proof from you that this game actually encouraged Christians to kill homosexuals and interracial couples. Neither of these things happened in the book series and I'd be very surprised to see such behavior encouraged in a game based on the same intellectual property.


I'm talking about a game that pushed it's beliefs to the point of the objective was to kill or convert anyone who didn't follow the same beliefs as you. If anything, they were being ignorant, when one of the Ten Commandments is to "Love Thy Neighbor". But thats neither here nor there.

It's neither there, actually, because "Love Thy Neighbor" is not one of the Ten Commandments. It's a command first given by God in Leviticus 19:18 and then doesn't appear again until the New Testament where Jesus repeats it a number of times. It is not, as you state here, part of the Decalogue listed in Exodus 20. So what exactly just happened here? Were you lying, or did you simply not know what you were talking about?

I've got to say this, but between these wild (and most likely unprovable) assertions about the Left Behind game and this sloppy mistake in quoting what the Bible says and where I find it very disturbing that you've just taken it on yourself to speak openly to a member of the press (thereby implicitly representing the hobby) about videogames of a controversial nature.

[smork]

I've got to say this, but between these wild (and most likely unprovable) assertions about the Left Behind game and this sloppy mistake in quoting what the Bible says and where I find it very disturbing that you've just taken it on yourself to speak openly to a member of the press (thereby implicitly representing the hobby) about videogames of a controversial nature.

I'm only passingly familiar with the books and read a bit about the game -- but from what i've read about the game in both the gaming and popular press it's really quite ineffective at being any sort of positive educational tool. I know both CNN and the BBC were decrying the game. I only mention this to say that any gamer condemnation of the game from someone on this site is nothing that hasn't already been reported on at length in other, large outlets.

To the original question -- I do think that the most effective games-as-educational-tools are ones that don't present themselves in such a hamfisted manner. For example the Final Fantasy series always has a strong environmental message -- it's not what the game is about (like if it were a Captain Planet game), so the message is more subtle. I can't say that i've ever played any strictly educational games other than extremely primitive games that were out when I was a child, but I wouldn't expect that any educational games with a scope beyond, say, teaching arithmetic or spelling, would have as much impact as a game that weaves its message into the context of a larger narrative.

[WiseSalesman]

2. I've never played this game, but I'm familiar with the book series on which it is based and I would like to see some proof from you that this game actually encouraged Christians to kill homosexuals and interracial couples. Neither of these things happened in the book series and I'd be very surprised to see such behavior encouraged in a game based on the same intellectual property.

I've got to say this, but between these wild (and most likely unprovable) assertions about the Left Behind game and this sloppy mistake in quoting what the Bible says and where I find it very disturbing that you've just taken it on yourself to speak openly to a member of the press (thereby implicitly representing the hobby) about videogames of a controversial nature.

Wild? How, as an informed person, did you miss all the news stories? Here are several, from the first page of Google results I got when I researched it. For the record, I'm familiar with the books as well (my Dad's a big fan) and he picked up the game not too long after it came out. He hated it. Said it didn't follow the material at all.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061214-8418.html - Ars Technica
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6669946 - NPR
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ1.DTL - San Francisco Chronicle
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/12/13/groups_urge_chain_to_drop_christian_game/ - Boston Globe
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20061212-060518-4683r - UPI
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/2006-12-13-left-behind-controversy_x.htm?POE=TECISVA - USA Today
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200612/CUL20061219c.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hatevgame.htm

I will say there is nothing in the articles specifically about killing homosexuals or members of interracial couples. There is one whole hell of a lot about the wholesale slaughter of Muslims, however.

And as far as him mixing up the verse and chapter of a specific quote from a religious document in which he holds little interest, I have to say you may be overreacting just a tad. This was a message board post, not an exhaustively researched fifty-page thesis. So he didn't know where in the bible "love thy neighbor" was written, when he quoted it off the cuff. Big deal. He's not Christian - why would he? Hell, most Christians I know wouldn't be able to pull the verse and line of that quote right off the top of their heads. Chill.

[Kid Ice]

Sorry you asked yet Joe? ;-)

The name of the cancer-fighting game is "Ben's Game" (designed by Ben Duskin). You can download it at http://www.makewish.org/site/pp.asp?c=cvLRKaO4E&b=64401

Game On also shows a training "game" for registered nurses called "Care Connections". It looks more like a sim to me so I'm not sure why it's included in the program.

[blissfulnoise]

If anyone cared to go through Water Cooler Games websites or take a look at Persuasive Games they can find a whole boatload of "serious" games to cite.

One of the more interesting ones is by Unicef; it's in Swahili (the only game on the web IN Swahili!) designed to increase knowledge about HIV and AIDS in Africia. It can be found here (http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/media_36371.html).

Another really rad game to bring up would be Guru Meditation (http://www.bogost.com/games/guru_meditation.shtml) by Ian Bogost. It's a homebrew being designed on the VCS to use the Joyboard and allow the user to open their inner Chakra via sitting perfectly still and meditating.

And the writer definately needs to hit the Wiki page for these sorts of games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_game) to use as a launch pad. Lots of additional examples are to be found there. Another good place is to hit Kotaku (http://www.kotaku.com) and search for the tag "serious games". Quite a few nice side stories there.

I'm hoping you're following up with this Apollo. There are dozens, and dozens of places you can get info about these sorts of games. Hopefully the writer is being exposed to some of the major sources to keep the forthcoming article grounded in reality as much as possible :)

[digitalpress]

If anyone cared to go through Water Cooler Games websites or take a look at Persuasive Games they can find a whole boatload of "serious" games to cite.

One of the more interesting ones is by Unicef; it's in Swahili (the only game on the web IN Swahili!) designed to increase knowledge about HIV and AIDS in Africia. It can be found here (http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/media_36371.html).

Another really rad game to bring up would be Guru Meditation (http://www.bogost.com/games/guru_meditation.shtml) by Ian Bogost. It's a homebrew being designed on the VCS to use the Joyboard and allow the user to open their inner Chakra via sitting perfectly still and meditating.

And the writer definately needs to hit the Wiki page for these sorts of games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_game) to use as a launch pad. Lots of additional examples are to be found there. Another good place is to hit Kotaku (http://www.kotaku.com) and search for the tag "serious games". Quite a few nice side stories there.

I'm hoping you're following up with this Apollo. There are dozens, and dozens of places you can get info about these sorts of games. Hopefully the writer is being exposed to some of the major sources to keep the forthcoming article grounded in reality as much as possible :)

Here's the response I've been waiting for. Thank you so much, I'll forward this along to the reporter.

[Pantechnicon]

Wild? How, as an informed person, did you miss all the news stories? Here are several...

You haven't shown me anything here I didn't already know. People didn't like the game. Some liberal-activist and progressive groups who already have an axe to grind against evangelicals tried to put it in the same category with GTA. I remember all of this. But...


I will say there is nothing in the articles specifically about killing homosexuals or members of interracial couples. - {Emphasis added - Pan}

...and that's my whole gripe here. Apollo raised a very specific accusation against this game (and implicitly against the belief system behind it) which I do not believe he can prove. If one was in fact encouraged to kill homosexuals or interracial couples by this game then don't you think at least one of those articles you cited would have mentioned it?

Let's try a couple different perspectives here other than NPR or the San Francisco press:

- The game's official faq (http://www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/faq.htm) addresses a good number of the concerns your articles raised and in a less caustic fashion, but...eh...you know how those Christians always lie about everything, so let's take a look at some reviews from GameFAQs (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/review/928956.html). Check the negative reviews first. Nobody mentions killing homosexuals or interracial couples as an aspect of the game.


And as far as him mixing up the verse and chapter of a specific quote from a religious document in which he holds little interest, I have to say you may be overreacting just a tad....So he didn't know where in the bible "love thy neighbor" was written, when he quoted it off the cuff. Big deal. He's not Christian - why would he?

For someone who presumably doesn't care about a particular religion our friend Apollo stressed a rather strong, controversial and unsubstantiated opinion; that we (yes...I'm one of "them"...boo) have made a game which encourages the killing of people who don't hold to our beliefs. And the reason I'm making a big deal out of the verse misquote is to draw attention to the fact that since Apollo doesn't know the Bible very well, then maybe he should think a little harder or do some research before speaking aloud as to what it teaches, or how these teachings are reflected in various aspects of popular culture such as videogames.

I don't want to get this thread locked so I'll bow out now. Take it to PM if you've got anything else to add.

@Apollo: Whenever you're ready, go ahead and post that proof here that the Left Behind game encourages killing homosexuals and interracial couples.

[Apollo]

Pantechnicon, calm the fuck down. Seriously. I mention one fucking thing about religion, and you go on a whole "holier-than-thou" crusade. From everything I had seen and played of the Left behind game, one of the features was to either kill or convert homosexuals or any other person that wasn't considered holy in the eyes of God. Excuse me for not being so damn religious as you.

The reason that I pushed the religious overtones of the game is because it's directly promoting ideas that I am very strongly against as both a human being and a gamer. It essentially shoves the idea of religion down a persons throat, and masks it as a game.

Before you go saying about how a game isn't like this, do some goddamn research about it.

This has escalated into a religious debate, and this entire damn thread should be trashed. It's caused more problem than it's been worth.

Pantechnicon, back the fuck off.


Edit: Oh and by the way, i pulled this directly from the Wiki, right under the section entitled "Dominionist Overtones". Seems fitting.

"Certain critics of the Religious Right, like the Campaign to Defend the Constitution and the Christian Alliance for Progress, say that Left Behind: Eternal Forces advocates Dominionism and indoctrinates children into the ideology of religious warfare, letting them play out "a major battle for the streets of New York City" in which the forces of good seek to convert to fundamentalist Christianity or else kill all the city's inhabitants..."

[8-bitNesMan]

Before this gets locked, I have to say something. Pan wasn't attacking you Apollo. The way I see it, you presented your viewpoint and he presented his. Why are Christians the only group that can be publicly attacked and it's okay? I'm WAY tired of all these double standards. You tell the man to calm down, all the while dropping F-bombs and using God's name in vain. I have nothing against you, I just don't understand why you're so upset over what should be rational discourse on a message board. I'm don't wish to turn this into a religious war, so with that said I'm done. God bless you all.

[digitalpress]

That's all the info we're gonna need.

Thanks for staying on topic and not turning this into a religious debate.