Do higher def screens mess up timing?

[tmc]

I was recently listening to an old edition of retrogaming radio and heard the host mention that because there are more pixels across the screen on higher def screens or computer monitors then a bullet say released will travel a lot slower across the screen then on it's native arcade monitor.

Is this true, if i got the original arcade game and a mame set up on a pc and for example started running a character around the two screens exactly the same, will they stay identical pacing with each other or will one lose time to the other?

if they do stay identical then could someone please explain how they manage to overcome the more pixels problem.

Hope this makes sense!

many thanks, tmc.

[DreamTR]

Short answer, yes, there is lag on HDTVS unless it's upscaled properly. THis is why fighting games in tournaments are only played on CRTs.

[norkusa]

I just got an hdtv last month and right away I could tell that there was something wrong with the timing. I play a lot of Bemani games like DDR and IIDX and I could barely pass any songs because the timing in those games is so strict and the lag was enough to completely throw it out of synch. In games like Halo and Forza 2 I barely notice it though.

Since then, I've pretty much given up playing IIDX. I can only play DDR now with StepmaniaX on my modded Xbox because it has an option that lets you adjust difficulty which balances out my hdtv lag.

[PallarAndersVisa]

I dont know if this really counts but whenever I play Boom Boom Rocket on my friends 720p/1080i TV, and the 360 is set to 1080i, the controlled fireworks do not match up. I can only play properly in 720p

[tmc]

So how does mame stack up in this area on standard pc monitors?

[Trebuken]

Might depend on how it is connected. I have no issues with MAME. MAME doesn't fill the whole screen though.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

I was trying to play duckhunt a few weeks ago on my CRT HDTV (sony kv-30hs420) and couldn't get a single shot off. I even held the gun point-blank to the screen, and although it would flash, I couldn't hit the damn ducks. So I searched around and finally came across an article about the Zapper on wikipedia. It mentioned that the refresh rate of HDTVs makes the Zapper useless. So if you love duckhunt or Hogan's Alley, stick with an Analog CRT only. Don't know if this goes for the Super Scope on SNES, though. By the way this was the only thing I could find on the issue, and I make no claims for it to be 100% accurate- but it sounds reasonable to me.

[Gamereviewgod]

Don't know if this goes for the Super Scope on SNES, though..

Won't work. Same problem. Even some light guns that are labeled for HD won't work either on LCD or projection screens.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Isn't technology great! That helps me out, because I was kinda, sorta, thinking of possibly getting one for my SNES. Guess I'll stay away then.

[dgdgagdae]

Was hoping, having a CRT HD TV that the Zapper would work when I recently got my Nintendo Action Set. No such luck. Oh well.

[Zing]

Sony rear-projection LCD/SXRD HDTVs have virtually undetectable video lag. I am able to play DDR, Guitar Hero, etc with no problems.

However, I highly suggest staying away from flat-panel LCD and rear-projection DLP for 480i (or lower) gaming. Even with "game mode" on, the lag will ruin your timing sensitive games.

This is all from personal experience.

Note that the lag only appears when inputting a 480i signal. If you are using an Xbox, PS2 or PS3 in progressive scan mode, then you will have no issues.

[hbkprm]

depends

[skaar]

Sony rear-projection LCD/SXRD HDTVs have virtually undetectable video lag. I am able to play DDR, Guitar Hero, etc with no problems.

Yep - DDR is king on a 60" :D

[rbudrick]

Wow, I haven't heard of this issue before. Since I don't own an HDTV yet, what's a gamer to do when he's finally ready to buy?

-Rob

[VACRMH]

Wow, I haven't heard of this issue before. Since I don't own an HDTV yet, what's a gamer to do when he's finally ready to buy?

-Rob

Take your systems into the store to try them out. That's what a friend and I did a few weeks ago. Tried out fighters and shooters, no lag on the TV we used, or at least we didn't notice any. But it just depends on the model I guess.

[skaar]

Plus keep the old TV around. I've got a Toshiba 27 in the bedroom for the older consoles so I can play in bed. NES really doesn't look that good when made big.

[Mayhem]

Some flat screens have big lag, some have little lag (like 8 or 12ms). All a question of doing your homework and finding out the low lag ones.

[Leroy]

I'm an expert in this one.

HDTV lag is solely the result of the TV having to upscale the image to the TVs native resolution. All HDTVs have ONE resolution.. the 720p/1080i mentioned above is probably 720p only but will accept a 1080i signal. So when playing in 1080i mode, the TV has to downscale the image, that's why you'd have lag in Boom Boom Rockets. There is NO lag when playing games in the TV's native resolution. If you've got a 720p LCD and have your 360 at 1080i or 1080p.. you need to set it to 720p

The glut of lag, by a large margin, comes from the deinterlacing process. The TV has to take the two images sent and combine them and after that it still has to resize it to its native resolution! A 1080p TV displaying 480p image needs only to resize it.. hence the big difference in lag between 480i and 480p.

The good news is that the Xbox 360 and PS3 convert all games to your selected resolution.. even for backwards compatible games! If you've got a PS3, that means no lag on those bemani games! But, I *think* it might be for software-emulation only.. can somebody confirm this? Lastly, all (or most?) Wii games are 480p and many GameCube games are, so at the very least, Nintendo fans only need to worry about the slight bit of upscaling from 480p.

Now, each TV is different.. but generally from what I've read, rear-projection TVs (particularly DLP sets) have very poor upscaling lag. Flat-panel LCDs in general can have the best upscaling lag, plasmas are close but should be avoided for heavy gaming due to image retention issues. Sharp has one line of LCDs TVs that have a "Viper Drive" option that is meant to GREATLY reduce any upscaling lag and the TV line was made with gamers in mind.

I'll be glad to welcome any questions if I haven't explained it well enough.

[Leroy]

Some flat screens have big lag, some have little lag (like 8 or 12ms). All a question of doing your homework and finding out the low lag ones.
That's refresh rate and has nothing to do with HDTV lag.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's refresh rate and has nothing to do with HDTV lag.
That actually sounds like pixel twist rate on an LCD monitor which is not the same thing as refresh rate (it contributes to perceived refresh rate, though).

Unfortunately, lots of newer non-analog monitors and displays have lag. I hadn't heard about HDTVs lagging, but I'm not surprised. Certain LCD monitors with integrated hardware for jiggering colors have an unavoidable lag.

Basically, before you buy anything ask to try some reflex game on it - better yet, look the model number up on the 'net.

[Ed Oscuro]

I was recently listening to an old edition of retrogaming radio and heard the host mention that because there are more pixels across the screen on higher def screens or computer monitors then a bullet say released will travel a lot slower across the screen then on it's native arcade monitor.
Also, how is this supposed to work? The shot might first appear onscreen slower than on the CRT monitor, but once it's started displaying the timing will be the same. Even if it drops a frame, the timeline of where the bullet is at various points in time should stay the same.

Also, if the HDTV is larger than the arcade monitor, it stands to reason that it "moves" a physically farther distance covering the same percentage of the HDTV screen, and thus is moving "faster" (in terms of real distance, not percentage which had better be the same or else part of your screen is missing).

[8-bitNesMan]

depends

You don't say much my friend, but when you do it's to the point, and I salute you for it!