OlderGames.com announces two new products 8/7/2007!!

[rwbivins]

We have returned from the 2007 Classic Gaming Expo and are happy to announce that we have begun accepting pre-orders for Sega Saturn: Lost & Found #3 and Frog Feast - Atari Jaguar Edition...

For more information or to place an order visit our 'official' announcement
at this link: http://www.oldergames.knurdz.com/news.php?aid=20

[Muscelli]

Just placed an order for L&F3 and PMed you!

[Bojay1997]

Deep Fear was a Sega developed game released on the Saturn in full English in many PAL territories including the UK. You've really gotta explain to me how this is "unreleased" in English and what prompted you to believe that you could charge people for it. I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how what you're doing here is any different than those people on Ebay who charge for burned games or roms.

[rwbivins]

Deep Fear was a Sega developed game released on the Saturn in full English in many PAL territories including the UK. You've really gotta explain to me how this is "unreleased" in English.

To answer both of your questions:

It is the unreleased NTSC american version. Not the pal version.


Why we are selling:

We are simply making our money back to support the costs
of purchasing the prototypes. Consider the expenses.

I understand your concern but there are no gimmicks or scams
here. Thank you for your input and have a great week. :D

[c0ldb33r]

How does oldergames get the rights to release these games? Are they legal?

[MrSmiley381]

This is like NESReproductions.com, only they're in it for the money. Fifty copies? Earlier volumes selling for hundreds? Sorry, I'll pass. I'm not modding my Saturn.

[Kitsune Sniper]

...

Jesus Christ, how many ports of Frog Feast have to come out before there's enough?! Is the demand for the game THAT HIGH?!

(And yes, that is a joke. Kinda. Are you trying to beat Pac-Man's record?!)

[Muscelli]

How does oldergames get the rights to release these games? Are they legal?

I guess they contact them somehow. They're defiantly legal though.

[rwbivins]

This is like NESReproductions.com, only they're in it for the money.

I always find it interesting that people who have zero connections
to our company and have never seen our bank account are so eager
to claim we make all this money.

FYI: OlderGames.com is a tax write-off for KNURDZ. Always will be.

To each his own I guess. Now if you'll excuse me I need to
go wash my Mercedes Benz... lol

I'm not offended. You are certainly welcome to your
own opinion no matter how wrong it is. God bless America. :D

[rwbivins]

...

Jesus Christ, how many ports of Frog Feast have to come out before there's enough?! Is the demand for the game THAT HIGH?!

(And yes, that is a joke. Kinda. Are you trying to beat Pac-Man's record?!)

It's a labor of love. I think Mr. Doty is aiming to port it to
about 50 more platforms and then make a two player version
that has online score keeping and a bread maker attachment. :D

[rwbivins]

How does oldergames get the rights to release these games? Are they legal?

IP buyouts, contracts, licensing fee's, cold-calling, reversed write-offs,
developing in-house, financing homebrew projects, bulk and advance payments,
begging, pleading, whining.... you know... the usual.

[rwbivins]

Just so you guys know if I don't reply it is because I'm
going to be on a business trip to San Diego, then back to Vegas
for the next two weeks.

If the products do not interest you don't buy them but consider
looking at a release in the future. Your business directly supports
the efforts of key homebrew developers.

If you have purchased the product(s) then we thank you for
your support and business and will ship them later next month
when they are released.

Either way, have a great week gentlemen. :D

[bangtango]

Frog Feast on the Atari Jaguar CD. What does that raise the count of Jaguar CD games to? 18, 19? I can't see why people in this thread seem to be complaining about that "console" getting a port. As much as those cd units go for online most places, people who own that bad boy are starving for software. Especially when the original Jaguar CD "run" was wall-to-wall ports from other systems along the lines of Dragon's Lair, Braindead 13, Myst, etc.

rw: I am interested in the Sega CD version of Frog Feast, having recently reacquired the system. That and the fact I like the game. What sort of packaging can I expect? I don't get much info from the web site. Is it a Sega CD style case or a basic cd jewel case (ala PS1)? Also does that come with a manual and would the game be on a cdr?

[Bojay1997]

How does oldergames get the rights to release these games? Are they legal?

It appears to me that many times they don't have the rights, but they do it anyway. They count on the fact that many of the companies are either out of business and the IP rights holders don't find out about it or in this case, Sega doesn't have the time or resources to deal with this issue. I'm sorry, but this is not a legal or legitimate release and I hope nobody actually purchases this. I realize groups get together from time to time and release roms after chipping in on a proto, but nobody is charging $30 a copy and trying to claim that the release is somehow sanctioned or legit.

[rwbivins]

It appears to me that many times they don't have the rights, but they do it anyway.

I don't get it... honestly. I have answered all of your questions
and all you can do is come up with more rubbish to derail the thread.

I will not deny that we had made some mistakes in the past, partly
due to our inexperience in certain areas of IP law but we are far from
a piracy group, and your comments are without weight.

In all honesty: Did I ever go out of my way to piss on you in a
previous life or something? I don't get all this hate man... And in your
own words you are saying it "appears to me that"... haven't you
ever heard the term "appearances can be deceiving" ?.
Anyhow... like I said you are entitled to your own opinion however
poorly misinterpreted and unfounded it may be. Thats what makes
it a free country.

On another note: bangtango, It comes in a DVD style case with insert
and a "thank you for your support" card thingy. The game is very simple
to play using timed button presses.

Thats all folks. I'm now packed and have a drive first thing in
the morning. Have a wonderful week. And for Mr. Bojay - all I
can say is I'm sorry you feel / think that way man but you can't
please everybody. I'd die of sleep deprivation if I tried. :D

[Bojay1997]

I don't get it... honestly. I have answered all of your questions
and all you can do is come up with more rubbish to derail the thread.

I will not deny that we had made some mistakes in the past, partly
due to our inexperience in certain areas of IP law but we are far from
a piracy group, and your comments are without weight.

:D

No, you actually haven't answered any of my questions. Every time you respond to my legitimate criticisms of your "releases", all I get is a vague paragraph about how you are no longer making the same mistakes as you did in the past and you make allusions to some kind of secret deal with the rights holders that you aren't willing to discuss.

Well, let's focus on this particular release. The game IP is wholly owned by Sega as it was a first party developed and released title. Contrary to your assertions on your site, it was released in full English format in Europe and many of us have imported it over the years (for far less than what you're selling it for by the way) and it works glitch free on an NTSC system.

You admitted earlier that you are selling copies to pay for the prototype you procured from an undisclosed source. As far as I am aware, Sega is still a going concern and is not in the business of giving it's IP away. So, perhaps you can explain in this one instance how you convinced Sega to let you release this game for profit and why they didn't provide you with a copy of the game with which to make your duplicates. Perhaps you could also direct the rest of us to this generous executive at Sega who is making your dream of selling previously unreleased software a reality. This person should certainly be a guest of honor at CGE as they are really responsive to the desires of the collector's community.

Seriously, you're the one trying to claim legitimacy. The burden is on you to prove what you're doing is on the up and up. If you can't do that, and to date you haven't, I really have no choice but to conclude that all you're doing is stealing from a company that is either too large or too consumed with its own problems to go after you.

Not that I owe you any explanation, but I'm an entertainment attorney and I'm also a fairly successful TV and film producer. I work with a lot of very talented people who are constantly being exploited and having their IP stolen by folks who claim to have good intentions. I take intellectual property very seriously and I know how complex licensing can be. There is no such thing as abandonware, no matter what you may believe. I just have a real problem when someone tries to make profit, no matter how small, on the work of others.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Frog Feast on the Atari Jaguar CD. What does that raise the count of Jaguar CD games to? 18, 19? I can't see why people in this thread seem to be complaining about that "console" getting a port. As much as those cd units go for online most places, people who own that bad boy are starving for software. Especially when the original Jaguar CD "run" was wall-to-wall ports from other systems along the lines of Dragon's Lair, Braindead 13, Myst, etc.

rw: I am interested in the Sega CD version of Frog Feast, having recently reacquired the system. That and the fact I like the game. What sort of packaging can I expect? I don't get much info from the web site. Is it a Sega CD style case or a basic cd jewel case (ala PS1)? Also does that come with a manual and would the game be on a cdr?

Uh, my post was a joke. I really am surprised that game keeps getting ported and re-ported all the time.

Next thing you know, we'll have a version of Frog Feast that runs on the Game.com. Hell, there will likely be one now that I've mentioned it, just to spite me. :p

[j_factor]

I guess I can't really speak for Bivins, but...


You admitted earlier that you are selling copies to pay for the prototype you procured from an undisclosed source.

I'd just like to note, an NTSC, North American territory, English-language prototype of Deep Fear definitely does exist. In fact, there are more than one of them. I (and many others I'm sure) can vouch for that part. I wouldn't expect him to disclose the source.


As far as I am aware, Sega is still a going concern and is not in the business of giving it's IP away. So, perhaps you can explain in this one instance how you convinced Sega to let you release this game for profit and why they didn't provide you with a copy of the game with which to make your duplicates. Perhaps you could also direct the rest of us to this generous executive at Sega who is making your dream of selling previously unreleased software a reality. This person should certainly be a guest of honor at CGE as they are really responsive to the desires of the collector's community.

I'd just like to note on the bolded part, that game companies don't have a giant vault with every proto they've ever made. One of the guys from Good Deal Games said that finding a copy is (usually) harder than getting the company to agree to the release -- the company never has their old protos lying around.

I'm not going to speculate on the legal dealings of this particular release, but it's not like this is the first instance of something like this happening, legally.

[MrSmiley381]

I always find it interesting that people who have zero connections
to our company and have never seen our bank account are so eager
to claim we make all this money.

FYI: OlderGames.com is a tax write-off for KNURDZ. Always will be.

To each his own I guess. Now if you'll excuse me I need to
go wash my Mercedes Benz... lol

I'm not offended. You are certainly welcome to your
own opinion no matter how wrong it is. God bless America. :D

The only reason I said what I said is because you're basically selling bootlegs. If I need a modchip, and it's a CD-R, then I'm sorry, that's just a boundary I can't cross. I will bootleg my own games, but never buy something that's almost the same.

For the record DP, if I EVER get my hands on some sort of prototype from the days of yore, and no ROM/ISO exists, I will release it to the public.

[Iron Draggon]

screw all that... I just wanna know why you stopped producing all your older titles... if it's all on the up and up, then why limit all the production runs? I expect the typical "poor us, we aren't making any money on these" excuse, or perhaps you'll play the "we're trying to help them maintain their value with collectors" trump card, but surely you must be making some money on them all or you wouldn't even be bothering with any of it... and why do you need a whole separate company to use for a tax write-off if your main company isn't making any money? companies who are truly broke don't need any write-offs!

[c2000]

Pre-ordered L&F 3 even while the contents aren't really new to me. The video disc is a Truemotion promotion disc, right?

I'd be looking forward to stuff like an early version of Exhumed (Powerslave), Bedlam or Maximum Surge on L&F 4.

[rwbivins]

Hello,

The point of this thread isn't to debate anything but to announce two new
products to the community which I have done. Therefore instead of wasting
my valuable time replying to nonsense until the cows come home I will answer
various questions and leave it at that. Although I respect and understand the
views of the general public, we just like any company are not at liberty to
discuss details about our corporate affairs. Hopefully given my responses here
you can see that I have been considerate of your concerns and have been
respectful in my replies. There is a level of discussion I will not cross and I
see this thread going there and will not be a part of that level of banter.

So here are my responses. Accept them at face value and do not expect
me to re-join the discussion after this post:

--

BOJAY1997: although you have some good points you are definately
barking up the wrong tree. You even admit that your an entertainment
lawyer. With that in mind I would like to politely remind you that
entertainment law and IP licensing are two very different things even
though they are usually hand in hand. If you are what you say then I
should not have to answer you as anyone with a BASIC background in
IP law would know there are more holes, workarounds, eminent domain
statutes, reclamation statutes, and IP forfeit statutes than you can
shake a stick at.

You come from the point of view of someone who works with
talent which is abused as you say... this is a far cry from that. I have
answered all of your questions which you appear to have ignored since
as you say "No, you actually haven't answered any of my questions." please
refer to post #4 and take the time to read my responses as I have given
you that respect. IF you agree to sign an NDA I can have our counsel
draft I would be more than happy to put him in touch with you so you
can debate with him on the basics of IP law. I don't see why you have
such a vested interest in this issue. Had you addressed this with me
at CGE I would have been more than happy to provide you with documents
relating to our business upon a subpeona or court order... hell even an
NDA. We carry a black lockbox with us to every event we attend, under
which our contracts are stacked should someone order us to show.

In short: PM me and I will put you in touch with our counsel. I believe
you may actually even know him as he is from the Television and Film
industry just like yourself. For all I know you are colleagues. You just
as any lawyer should know there is information that can be public,
and information that is not. You are requesting to see priveledged
information which you yourself would never provide me without
going through the set process beforehand. If you *are* a lawyer
then it's common knowledge that this kind of information is not
public. Respect this and I have no problems about providing you
with that type of information even though you are nobody to our
company and have no reason to be shown anything.


MrSmiley381: I understand where you are coming from. Had it been
possible to do this on official saturn disks it would be a different
story. I find it admirable that you would readily dump an unreleased
game after spending thousands someday. Where most companies
charge upwards of $50 for a homebrew our most expensive product
retailed at $30 considering the time, effort, costs, and hassle involved
we still lose money in the end just like you would for the benefit of
those wanting new titles on these orphaned consoles.


Iron Dragon: In all honesty I lost the original artwork for most of it
when I had my PC crash and my dumbass didn't make backups. I've
been meaning to do another run of our old CD-i titles but with my
current schedule (very time heavy) and our preparations for CGE
(launching 10 new products) it was pushed back. I have been in
discussions with Devin Shockwell over sponsoring a fan art contest
for the new editions of our CD-i titles which I plan to put in
motion within the next two months. On the SEGA CD side we
came to a resolution with Good Deal Games at CGE wheras they
will continue publishing the old Sega CD titles and we will exchange
links. On the limited edition theory: All of your points are correct
even though you somehow don't believe them but the biggest
issue is simply that any homebrewer or company doing what
we do considers it a huge success if you can get 100 copies
out the door. Why not make more? = Common sense. It ensures
that we can get the stock out the door. We do make some money
but if I were to even consider living off of it I'd be better off with
welfare. I personally am in a comfortable financial position and
our company is too. Last but not least: KNURDZ is our main company
OlderGames is our "for fun" side thing. And yes... it is a write off
and always will be. I pay people to handle orders, I cut checks for
50% of sales to developers, Design artwork, hand assemble product.
At the end of the day if we make a few thousand bucks at the
end of the year is it really for the money? No... I can easily make
that amount working on KNURDZ projects in a couple of days.

Hopefully this addressed your concerns. I learned long ago that
you can't please everybody. Jumping to conclusions about non
public business matters doesn't do much for anybody and wastes
your time as much as mine. I am going to San Diego on a business
trip and will be back next week. PM me if you are so curious but
please stop bumping the thread. We can talk an eternity and you
guys can try to find holes in everything I say but I will always have
a response and you will always have complaints. Accept that I
feel my time is better served taking care of our customers and
projects and yell at the wall if you are so inclined to do so.

Have a good week gentlemen. :D

[bangtango]

Uh, my post was a joke. I really am surprised that game keeps getting ported and re-ported all the time.

Next thing you know, we'll have a version of Frog Feast that runs on the Game.com. Hell, there will likely be one now that I've mentioned it, just to spite me. :p

Look what you've done :) Somewhere a guy in an office just pounded his fist on the table and said "Great idea!"

Seriously, though, I respect that they believe in the game enough to port it all over the place even if none of these ports remotely push the system they are on. One of these days, I'll grab the Sega CD version.

[Bojay1997]

If you are what you say then I
should not have to answer you as anyone with a BASIC background in
IP law would know there are more holes, workarounds, eminent domain
statutes, reclamation statutes, and IP forfeit statutes than you can
shake a stick at.

Look, I'm not going to keep debating you because, frankly, you contradict yourself in every single post you make. You're right, there are various ways to screw people out of their IP if they're not as dilligent as they should be about protecting it. I'm not sure why you would mention this, however, because as a legitimate business, you wouldn't engage in that kind of conduct, would you? So, simple question, did you actually license this game or not? It seems like you're making some kind of claim that Sega forfeited the IP and yet you also claim to have a contract in a locked box somewhere. All I'm asking is for you to be honest about what you're really doing.

Sorry, I don't buy that this information is confidential. No company which is licensing you something would prevent you from telling people you had licensed it. Sure, they might not want you to disclose the financials of the deal, but the very existence of the deal is not a confidential piece of information.

As far as I'm concerned, this debate is over. I think it's unfortunate that you can't just be truthful about your business.

[Garry Silljo]

They're defiantly legal though.

Usually I can ignore typos, but this one is particulary funny. "Defiantly legal" is an interesting oxymoron.