Generation NEX: 2 years later

[ApolloBoy]

I know the Generation NEX is kinda controversial around here, but I felt the need to reflect on it, since it's been over 2 years its release.

Anyway, I think now is the time for Messiah to objectively look at their system and improve on it while still keeping it at around $50. I suggest that Messiah dump the old NOAC that's used in the NEX and try to design a new, more accurate NOAC that's still cheap to manufacture. A great way to do this is if Messiah got in touch with the NES dev crowd, who obviously know the NES inside and out. In addition, the cart slots should be properly wired, so that the NEX can function with games like Castlevania 3/Akumajou Densetsu.

I know all this might be a bit too much to ask, but honestly, I would definitely consider buying a NEX if Messiah took the time to improve it. I'd love having an NES/Famicom combo system that worked perfectly with everything and looked great to boot (and IMO, the NEX is the best-looking NES clone I've seen yet).

And for the record, I have tried a NEX (and got to Stage 8 in Blaster Master on it), and it was OK, despite its obvious problems, which keep me from buying one now.

[ProgrammingAce]

I suggest that Messiah dump the old NOAC that's used in the NEX and try to design a new, more accurate NOAC that's still cheap to manufacture.

One of these things is not like the other, one of these thing doesn't belong. Can you tell me which one is not like the other, before i finish singing this song?

Creating a new NOAC isn't like dusting crops, boy!
Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or
bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your new famiclone real quick,
wouldn't it?

Basically, if it were easy, cheap, and profitable to make a "good" famiclone, it would already have been made.

[bangtango]

Yeah and who are you going to sell this new and improved Generation NEX to? Not to the same people who paid $50 the first time around and either hated the product and gave up on the company or the same people who liked the product and see no need to buy another version.

I could care less about Castlevania 3. So someone making a new and improved Famiclone that plays that game isn't going to make me open my wallet. I already got a Yobo and a Generation NEX that can run the NES games I actually DO like. Not to mention a pretty good emulator.

[Mangar]

I use Emulation for my NES games currently, but I'd pay significantly more then 50$ for a Famiclone boasting 100% compatibility, and good A/V inputs. While a pipe dream that will probably never see the light of day. I imagine i'm not the only person who would fork out cash for such a system.

Wouldn't buy it if it were from Messiah however. Based on the lies and misleading advertising the first time around, it's just not a company i'd trust with that sort of product.

[CosmicMonkey]

If you were going to design a new Famiclone, would it not be better/easier to use those FPGA chips? Someone's already done this with the Amiga. Surely a NES based on an FPGA chip would allow for a 100% accurate clone?

[Ze_ro]

Surely a NES based on an FPGA chip would allow for a 100% accurate clone?
I think I just heard all the C-One owners laughing.

--Zero

[Apollo]

Excuse the ignorance, but what exactly is topping games like Castlevania 3 from being emulated?

[98PaceCar]

I think I just heard all the C-One owners laughing.

--Zero


Both of them??

[chrisbid]

whatever thunder the NEX couldve possibly had was swallowed by the FC Twin.

if Yobo had some sense of adventure, theyd make a three slot console that played NES, SNES and Genesis games

[swlovinist]

The NEX while a good idea, turned out to be nothing but a NOAC...and was not marketed that way at the beginning. I still bought one and its rests in my game room. I would I agree that the Twin FC is the new guy in town, and is hard to compete with. Still a NOAC....but that can play SNES games! The twin FC is great for any newbies who want to play some old nes and snes games.

[kaedesdisciple]

Excuse the ignorance, but what exactly is topping games like Castlevania 3 from being emulated?

It's the mapper. The NOAC that's used in the Messiah is not compatible with the mapper that Castlevania 3 uses. I believe that's MMC5, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Most clones have a problem with that mapper, I think the PowerPak has the same problem at present, too. However, with the upgrading capabilities the PowerPak has, it won't be a problem once the developer figures out how to emulate it properly. But I digress...

[MachineGex]

whatever thunder the NEX couldve possibly had was swallowed by the FC Twin.

if Yobo had some sense of adventure, theyd make a three slot console that played NES, SNES and Genesis games

I would buy that in a heartbeat. Why not go for the "FC Quad" and put in a SMS slot. That would make a good april fools joke, along with a few moke-up photos of the new "FC Quad".

[Jorpho]

Still a NOAC....but that can play SNES games! The twin FC is great for any newbies who want to play some old nes and snes games.

Isn't the SNES compatibility of the Twin FC so woefully inadequate as to make it rather irrelevant as a selling point?

[omnedon]

I think anyone looking to market a clone to a collector's market like this one would have to be crazy to do so.

Why not just stab yourself in the eye with a rusty fork? Or build a small fire with money?

The collector's market is not the clone target market. Let the collectors have their own judgements, as their needs are not the same as the casual game buyer.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106006

The dude making those is gutsy enough to cater to collectors with a new product, with an effort to address the needs of collectors.

Gutsy.

[heybtbm]

Creating a new NOAC isn't like dusting crops, boy!
Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or
bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your new famiclone real quick,
wouldn't it?

...love it. SW FTW!

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

I think Messiah just mistook their market. On one side of their target market, they don't seem to have realized that collectors would be so picky about the slight imperfections of the system. And on the other side, they didn't seem to account for the fact that the retro fadsters were more intereste din the looks than the games and didn't care about blinking (they probably prefer it that way) and had no need for a Famicom slot, so they were never going to buy a NEX instead of an original NES, even if it was cheaper and certainly not if it was much more expensive like it was.

With those two portions of their market gone, it only left a very small group of people in the middle who actually enjoyed playing the games and weren't perfectionists. Not enough.

As for redesigning the system, Nintendos original patents are expired now, so Messiah could just use the original NES design, they wouldn't have to design an all new NOAC. That wouldn't be as cheap as using an off-the-shelf NOAC which are still being mass-produced apparently, but I suspect they could still do it and get in under their price point. Those original components would be awfully cheap today...if you could find them. There's no point, though, because even if they got the die-hard collector segment of their proposed market back, I don't think it would be enough to make the system profitable. The core of the market was always gonna be trendy retro kids and I don't think they were ever interested.


...word is bondage...

[Jorpho]

Wasn't the NES PPU a custom chip that could not be legally duplicated? I'm kind of fuzzy on the legal details.

[DogP]

whatever thunder the NEX couldve possibly had was swallowed by the FC Twin.

if Yobo had some sense of adventure, theyd make a three slot console that played NES, SNES and Genesis games

Actually, I was talking to the Yobo guy at CGE and I'm pretty sure he said they were working on that (it was kinda hard to understand his english). You could probably send them an email to find out (and maybe get a release date).

DogP

[ApolloBoy]

Wasn't the NES PPU a custom chip that could not be legally duplicated? I'm kind of fuzzy on the legal details.

All the patents on the NES hardware have expired, so it's perfectly legal to copy the hardware now.

[ApolloBoy]

I think anyone looking to market a clone to a collector's market like this one would have to be crazy to do so.

I never said that the "new" NEX would be solely targeted at the collector's market. As I said, it would replace the current 2-year old NEX design, therefore it would still appeal to those casual gamers who want to replace their old NES (which is the current demographic of the NEX, right?) and it would also have the side effect of appealing to collectors and purists who want a near-perfect clone.

[chrisbid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NES-on-a-chip

the NOAC was reversed engineered for the purpose of piracy, but hardware patents run out a lot quicker than software copyrights, so they are legal to produce so long as there is no software on board.

[omnedon]

I said what I meant, and I meant what I said.

[ApolloBoy]

I said what I meant, and I meant what I said.

But like I said, this would replace the current Generation NEX, not be sold alongside it.

I think I may have stirred a bee's nest with this thread.

[Jorpho]

All the patents on the NES hardware have expired, so it's perfectly legal to copy the hardware now.

Ah, but patents and integrated circuit designs are not necessarily the same.

[heybtbm]

I think I may have stirred a bee's nest with this thread.

The Generation NEX tends to do that.

[ApolloBoy]

The Generation NEX tends to do that.

True that. Even almost two years after the whole Jagasian thing it still creates arguments...

[bangtango]

Isn't the SNES compatibility of the Twin FC so woefully inadequate as to make it rather irrelevant as a selling point?

Couple that with the fact that the FC Twin doesn't allow for the use of NES controllers, including the zapper. You're stuck using SNES-based controllers. Hope you have fun watching the bad guys scroll by in Hogan's Alley or the birds fly around in Duck Hunt if you play either game on an FC Twin, because you won't be shooting at any of them.

I'm perfectly fine owning a Generation NEX or Yobo, since all I need is a servicable NES clone. I don't know why people have such a hard-on over a Super NES clone, though. Unlike the toaster NES, I don't remember the Super Nintendo systems ever blinking or needing a component replaced just to get games working. So what is the point of the FC Twin or some other aftermarket product that happens to play SNES titles? I can see the interest in a $20 Yobo or slightly more expensive Generation NEX because the blinking NES consoles infuriate me and I prefer not to deal with the hassle.

[omnedon]

There is an argument here somewhere? All I see are various opinions coming from different points of view. No disrespect that I can see, and no heat.

I think that is because the real reason for the old heat has been excised from the DP forums. Personal attacks on character and false accusations of criminal intent tend to generate heat.

I have my opinions on how a clone should likely be marketed, based on what I've seen.

Others have their opinions based on what they would like to see, and their ideas of what could/should be profitable.

Nothing wrong with any of this.

[GarrettCRW]

I think that is because the real reason for the old heat has been excised from the DP forums. Personal attacks on character and false accusations of criminal intent tend to generate heat.

And despite being a complete prick about it, Jagasian had some small sliver of a point. It's never a good idea to use the "it plays all your favorite games" marketing line when you can't play either the US or Japanese version of a bona fide classic. One would expect that both Messiah (who seems to have totally abandoned the idea of making wireless controllers for every system under the sun) and players learned something from that cluster fuck two years ago.

[Flack]

Actually, I was talking to the Yobo guy at CGE and I'm pretty sure he said they were working on that (it was kinda hard to understand his english). You could probably send them an email to find out (and maybe get a release date).

DogP

I talked to the same guy and I thought he said it would just do 16-bit only (SNES and Genesis). Like you said, it was a little difficult to understand exactly what he was saying.

[Mangar]

I recall Jagasian having many excellent points on the issue actually. From what i remember, the NEX was originally marketed as this sort of "Second Coming" miracle machine able to play nearly all NES games. There were flat out denials that it was a basic NOAC design, refusals to admit compatibility issues, (In order to hide it's NOAC status) and lots of gorilla marketing and baseless defense of the system on these forums by those with a vested financial interest in the product.

Jagasian may have been overly combative, but it was his arguments that highlighted MANY of the NEX's problems, forced them to admit that "Yes" it was a basic NOAC system. (Which they did so grudgingly, and only after first trying to claim it was a custom NOAC with better compatibility then a Yobo) And did manage to inform many consumers PRIOR to them pre-ordering it or purchasing it outright. Some people forget that behind the heat of the battle, Jagasian also had solid technical information, and a myriad of other facts to support his position. Even showing actual glitches in games the company swore worked 100%. (Wrong colours in games, music issues, etc..)

I think what made the issue such a flame war, was the way in which the product was defended. People who were involved with it's design, or had a financial stake took it quite personally that some guy was poking holes in, and bashing their product. If Jagasian had for example, went on a rampage and dissected a Playstation 2's compatibility list, or the X-Box 360's many hardware problems, it would have never turned into such a fight because while people may own or like those products, they lack a financial interest in the products success. The NEX however, which came packed with a Mini Digital Press price-guide, and had lots of ties both direct and indirect to many of this forums longtime posters, admins, and mods was quite different. It was that mix which made things turn out as they did.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

The problem is that people like us who spend so much of our time and attention on something as trivial as video games end up feeling the need to somehow justify all that energy spent at least to ourselves. Different people justify it in different ways, but a lot of us seem to go with the tactic of taking video games very seriously, being perfectionist and arguing quite vehemently over the smallest things. The idea is that if they imagine them to be some sort of serious affair, video games will actually seem like something meaningful that they don't have to justify spending their time on anymore. It's not true though--and I'm sure these people are aware of that ultimately. Games are games, there's nothing serious about them, so people who treat them seriously just appear foolish.


...word is bondage...

[omnedon]

I recall Jagasian having many excellent points on the issue actually. From what i remember, the NEX was originally marketed as this sort of "Second Coming" miracle machine able to play nearly all NES games. There were flat out denials that it was a basic NOAC design, refusals to admit compatibility issues, (In order to hide it's NOAC status) and lots of gorilla marketing and baseless defense of the system on these forums by those with a vested financial interest in the product.

Jagasian may have been overly combative, but it was his arguments that highlighted MANY of the NEX's problems, forced them to admit that "Yes" it was a basic NOAC system. (Which they did so grudgingly, and only after first trying to claim it was a custom NOAC with better compatibility then a Yobo) And did manage to inform many consumers PRIOR to them pre-ordering it or purchasing it outright. Some people forget that behind the heat of the battle, Jagasian also had solid technical information, and a myriad of other facts to support his position. Even showing actual glitches in games the company swore worked 100%. (Wrong colours in games, music issues, etc..)

I think what made the issue such a flame war, was the way in which the product was defended. People who were involved with it's design, or had a financial stake took it quite personally that some guy was poking holes in, and bashing their product. If Jagasian had for example, went on a rampage and dissected a Playstation 2's compatibility list, or the X-Box 360's many hardware problems, it would have never turned into such a fight because while people may own or like those products, they lack a financial interest in the products success. The NEX however, which came packed with a Mini Digital Press price-guide, and had lots of ties both direct and indirect to many of this forums longtime posters, admins, and mods was quite different. It was that mix which made things turn out as they did.

What''s any of this have to do with the thread topic?

I don't think addressing collector's concerns with a clone is a wise business move. Efforts to make original hardware work and work better is a better way to address the collectors Sweater Fish makes mention of above.

[ApolloBoy]

What''s any of this have to do with the thread topic?

I think it's got plenty to do with it.

Anyway, now that I've done some research on the NEX and NOAC-based clones in general, all Messiah would have to do is simply fix the inaccuracies in the NOAC used in the NEX rather than create a new one from the ground up. Just fix the two pulse wave channels in the PSGs and the mapper issues, wire both the NES and Famicom cart ports correctly, and that would be it (the slight color inaccuracies I didn't really care about). It would be such an insignificant change that Messiah wouldn't even have to announce it.

And besides, the more business that Messiah gets from us collectors/purists, no matter how small it would be, would be OK for Messiah, I think.

[PentiumMMX]

I've considered getting a Generation NEX or a Yobo, but I'll probably hold out for an A\V Famicom (Because it's official Nintendo hardware, and my NES rarely works)

[bunnyboy]

..., all Messiah would have to do is simply fix the inaccuracies in the NOAC used in the NEX rather than create a new one from the ground up.....

That is far easier said than done! They aren't creating the chips themselves, they are buying them in bulk (probably for $0.50-1.00 each). To make an all new ASIC would be a massive investment. Frequently it needs 500k-1M chips instead of the 10-50K they are using now.


...wire both the NES and Famicom cart ports correctly...

That is something they could easily fix, and instantly get games like Gauntlet working.

[ApolloBoy]

I've considered getting a Generation NEX or a Yobo, but I'll probably hold out for an A\V Famicom (Because it's official Nintendo hardware, and my NES rarely works)

That's what I'm trying to do now, despite the fact that my NES to Famicom adapter is a total POS.

[omnedon]

Anyway, now that I've done some research on the NEX and NOAC-based clones in general, all Messiah would have to do is simply fix the inaccuracies in the NOAC used in the NEX rather than create a new one from the ground up. Just fix the two pulse wave channels in the PSGs and the mapper issues, wire both the NES and Famicom cart ports correctly, and that would be it (the slight color inaccuracies I didn't really care about). It would be such an insignificant change that Messiah wouldn't even have to announce it.


You should simply write a proposal, with a cost analysis report, and make an insignificant return on investment analysis.

That was damned easy to type! Didn't cost me a thing either!

;-)

[bangtango]

NES Gauntlet isn't worth getting worked up into a lather over, that's for sure. As for Castlevania III, is it that important? Unless we are talking a Mario or Zelda game, something of that caliber, one single game isn't going to make or break the NES library. It is just too big of a library with lots of other classics to compensate any one game that is "missing." Just my humble opinion, of course.

[Mangar]

NES Gauntlet isn't worth getting worked up into a lather over, that's for sure. As for Castlevania III, is it that important? Unless we are talking a Mario or Zelda game, something of that caliber, one single game isn't going to make or break the NES library. It is just too big of a library with lots of other classics to compensate any one game that is "missing." Just my humble opinion, of course.

I seem to recall a post from someone who purchased a NEX, reporting "Garbled Maps" in Zelda, along with some other colour/graphic problems. The compatibility issues aren't limited to just one or two games, and aren't as clear as "Working" or "Not Working" - Many have to do with misplaced colours, garbled graphics, and music issues. There are reports floating around this forum and others detailing them.

Which is why I say - A Refurbished Toaster is the way to go.

[ApolloBoy]

You should simply write a proposal, with a cost analysis report, and make an insignificant return on investment analysis.


Once I take an economics class or two, I'll get back to you... XD

[bangtango]

I seem to recall a post from someone who purchased a NEX, reporting "Garbled Maps" in Zelda, along with some other colour/graphic problems. The compatibility issues aren't limited to just one or two games, and aren't as clear as "Working" or "Not Working" - Many have to do with misplaced colours, garbled graphics, and music issues. There are reports floating around this forum and others detailing them.

Which is why I say - A Refurbished Toaster is the way to go.

Zelda's maps are garbled if you play it on the Yobo, the same problem was not to be found on the Generation NEX.

I had nothing to do with the product. I didn't test it, sponsor it or promote it. Yet people find it hard to believe I was among those who bought it, after reading the compatibility list, and actually enjoyed it. Just because other people shout "ya gotta use a toaster and replace the connector" doesn't mean I am obligated to. I'd use a top-loader before a toaster and would, except it doesn't allow for easy Game Genie access.

[omnedon]

Once I take an economics class or two, I'll get back to you... XD

That's the joy of posting on the internet about the successes and failures of others. Words like 'simple' and 'insignificant' are easily typed.

I also think a real NES is the way to go for a serious collector who cares about total compatibility, and hardware and accessory configurations.

I do not believe a clone will ever achieve the kind of perfection that a serious NES gamer would accept. Not because it's impossible, but because it is pointless.

bangtango liked his for his own reasons. So there you go.

To this day, the pasting Messiah got (and myself to a lesser degree) stings, as it was unfair, and a mob run dogpile in every sense of the term IMO. I did learn something about the community though. What I learned will help me decide what direction future OSG projects and funds may take. A valuable lesson to say the least, so for that, I would like to thank Jagasian. Message Received!

You may all wish to be thankful to him for that. I do believe the success of future projects (like the one Apollo is fantasizing about) have been impacted by what happened here and at AA.

We have the community we all deserve. In the end, what else could you ask for?

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

I do not believe a clone will ever achieve the kind of perfection that a serious NES gamer would accept.
I believe that the term "serious gamer" would be considered an oxymoron.


...word is bondage...

[omnedon]

It's a nice sounding adjective. Others could be used, but I'm trying to be positive in attitude. =)

[camarotuner]

I may be in the minority, but if someone made a 100% compatible clone that was reliable, ran the games properly, worked with the peripherals, and had A/V cables..... I'd pay at least 100 and probably 150 to get it. No more blinking lights, blowing crap, replacing this that and the other. Just plug it in and play.

As for a SNES clone that does seem kinda silly given the SNES system is very reliable and easily found in great working condition.

[Scream And Fly]

Why not just buy a toaster NES and replace the pin connector? There you go, 100% compatibility!

[otoko]

As for a SNES clone that does seem kinda silly given the SNES system is very reliable and easily found in great working condition.

That's true. I've shifted through many a ... *ahem* Abused and working SNES

Those poor SNES's...


Why not just buy a toaster NES and replace the pin connector? There you go, 100% compatibility!

Well, my thought on it is. Even after replacing (if needed) the pin connector it still has the possibility of failing. You could just use the sysclone to help extend the life of it? Use your Toaster when the game isn't 100% compatible with the clone.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I may be in the minority, but if someone made a 100% compatible clone that was reliable, ran the games properly, worked with the peripherals, and had A/V cables..... I'd pay at least 100 and probably 150 to get it. No more blinking lights, blowing crap, replacing this that and the other. Just plug it in and play.

As for a SNES clone that does seem kinda silly given the SNES system is very reliable and easily found in great working condition.

$150? You could also likely procure an official top-loader NES and commission somebody to do a basic AV out mod for that price. (If you can't do it yourself.) And there'd be no compatability / peripheral problems there.

I believe that since the influx of YOBO top loaders on eBay, the official top-loader's stock has slipped a bit.

I've sold quite a few top-loaders on eBay back in the day, and where they used to fetch $200+, I rarely see them end over $100 these days ... unless the seller starts them that high / puts some type of reserve.

[neogamer]

No offense, but without looking at sales figures (on my part), do these things even sell?

Every Game Crazy store I go to has about two to three units in stock and they always try to get me to buy them when they find out I'm a collector.

Unfortunately, and this is my opinion, as a collector, I don't want one!

[acem77]

no enhancments killed the deal for me on the nex.
after i found out it would not do anything for sound or video i decided
to mod my own toaster nes to rgb and stereo.
Castlevania III is by far one of the best nes games.
it is sad for nex owners it does not work.

even if the colors are not perfect on the rgb mod it is still much better than what the nex has to offer.

if it bugs me that bad i have a 2nd non-moded toaster.

it would have been nice to just spend 50 on a clone that had all these enhancments.

[savageone]

I've yet to ever purchase a clone system. I find it very hard to be interested in any clone style system that doesn't at least offer a superior video output.

Show me a clone system with great compatibility, flaws not worth mentioning, great video output (component/hdmi), and perhaps even supports multiple systems (much like the fc twin) and I would easily shell out several hundred if it meant I never had to hook up certain retro systems again. If it was done right who here would NOT shell out the bucks for something along these lines? Have you guys ever tried hooking up a NES (via composite) or SNES (via s-video) to a HDTV? It's not a bed of roses.

For me it begs the question why companies like Nintendo or Sega have never done these "dream systems" themselves. However, now with VC it seems likely that it may never happen.

IMO there is a mountain of money waiting to be made here for the first person who can do it right.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I've yet to ever purchase a clone system. I find it very hard to be interested in any clone style system that doesn't at least offer a superior video output.

Show me a clone system with great compatibility, flaws not worth mentioning, great video output (component/hdmi), and perhaps even supports multiple systems (much like the fc twin) and I would easily shell out several hundred if it meant I never had to hook up certain retro systems again. If it was done right who here would NOT shell out the bucks for something along these lines? Have you guys ever tried hooking up a NES (via composite) or SNES (via s-video) to a HDTV? It's not a bed of roses.

For me it begs the question why companies like Nintendo or Sega have never done these "dream systems" themselves. However, now with VC it seems likely that it may never happen.

IMO there is a mountain of money waiting to be made here for the first person who can do it right.

Methinks Nintendo (and Sega) would rather make "classics" collections (or lame over-priced SINGLES in the case of Gameboy Advance!) and "virtual" download versions of the "best SELLING" titles from their classic systems ... especially in the case of the virtual ones ... if nobody buys them they're not really losing cash on the process of manufacturing / shipping.

The business model for that kind of thing has more than proven itself at this point...

While there are a bunch of people that would probably LOVE an official Nintendo or Sega built AV-out NES or Genesis clone ... and while it might make a nice profit ... at the end of the day, it's just not going to happen.

Hopefully console cloners will move beyond "settling" for the level of compatibility that they're at right now.

[GarrettCRW]

Hopefully console cloners will move beyond "settling" for the level of compatibility that they're at right now.

Given that the market for NES clones is dominated by Chinese companies using the horrifically flawed NOAC, I don't see it as likely. Personally, I think its more reasonable to work to improve the AV mod for the NES2, and also to create an adaptor that allows players to use American controllers in the 15 pin Famicom accessory port.

[Little Samson]

While there are a bunch of people that would probably LOVE an official Nintendo or Sega built AV-out NES or Genesis clone ... and while it might make a nice profit ... at the end of the day, it's just not going to happen.

*sigh*

Sad, but true.

[savageone]

While there are a bunch of people that would probably LOVE an official Nintendo or Sega built AV-out NES or Genesis clone ... and while it might make a nice profit ... at the end of the day, it's just not going to happen.

Certainly it will more than likely never happen, not from a company like Nintendo or Sega any ways. It leaves the door wide open other companies, they just have to do it RIGHT. If it's done right they can mark it up to hell and back and many people will still buy it, especially if it supports more than one system.

The way I see this kind of thing is like PSX games.. Why play PSX games on a Playstation 1 when you can just play them on a PS2/PS3 with better A/V quality and upscaling?

So some company needs to make a system where people seriously say: Why should I play my old NES/SNES/Genesis/etc/etc/etc on the original console when I can just buy System X which has far better A/V capabilities (which is becoming very important now that HDTVs are becoming the norm) and possibly has features like upscaling or other such filters?

Ah the dream..

[bangtango]

So some company needs to make a system where people seriously say: Why should I play my old NES/SNES/Genesis/etc/etc/etc on the original console when I can just buy System X which has far better A/V capabilities (which is becoming very important now that HDTVs are becoming the norm) and possibly has features like upscaling or other such filters?

Ah the dream..

Nice dream but it'd be next to impossible to put together a machine playing a large number of systems like that, i.e. the NES/SNES/Genesis and whatever others you might have in mind. For one, the processors on the SNES & Genesis are different. The other problem is that the party building it would need to go through the trouble of making sure it plays the regular licensed games, not to mention the FX-chip games (SNES), the SVP-chip game for Genesis (Virtua Racing) and games using the same type of chip as Castlevania III did. So what if it does do all of those things?

That is all well and good but you can expect this super system to be ripped to shreds on the message boards if it doesn't play all of the Japanese stuff, the crappy unlicensed games from back in the day (like Color Dreams and AVE stuff) and the homebrew/aftermarket releases from recent years like Beggar Prince or the various NES/SNES repros. Every damn one of them, otherwise someone will be pissed. You can bet on it. Then you get into the issue of controllers and accessories. Gotta be compatible with at least two or three different Game Genie's or Action Replay devices, the various mouses, scopes, zappers, regular controllers and third party controllers for each system across the board. Can't have a Genesis guy using a knock off SNES controller with shoulder buttons to play the Genesis version of SFII. Need that Genesis controller port, too. Don't even get started on how well the games look, sound and run. Any old slowdown eliminated and do the games that never had problems with slowdown still run at the same speed? Does the music sound exactly the same or is it a tinny reproduction?

If a system was ever designed that played games from those 3 consoles and it didn't meet ALL of the standards above, every last one of them, you'd have people from here and other web sites moaning about false advertising and calling the company "charlatans." Making such a system might make a person (or company) a little money but I would guarantee it would be the most thankless task they ever perform in their entire life and one that will leave a lasting perception on whatever other products they do in the future, even playing cards or toilet paper.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

I think the way to go with making a multicompatible system might actually be to use some sort of cheap old x86 based architecture and write custom emulators for it.

The Genesis-on-a-chip hardware seems pretty good, but the perfectionists will never be happy with NOAC or the pirate SNES architectures and designing a new hardware clone from scratch is not something a small start-up company with a very small target market is likely to jump into. Writing software is easier, especially if you can use existing x86 cores.

Personally, I think something like this would be totally cool. And it wouldn't have to be at all limited to just NES, SNES and Genesis. At the very least, SMS, Coleco and 2600 could be added easily. Possibly TurboGrafx, too, or more obscure systems. Maybe even Game Gear and Game Boy.

I think my biggest fear with something like this would be the actual physical design of the system. I don't know that I'd trust the kind of company that introduced a product like this to be able to come up with an attractive design, especially when it would have be working in so many different cartridge slots. And to me that's important.

Bangtango's right anyway, though, no matter how close to perfection they came, they'd never be able to get 100% accuracy (not with emulation and not with pure hardware) and there's too many "serious gamers" on the Internet who wouldn't be able to accept a system like this for what it was, so ultimately it's just not worth anyone's time to do this. Some of you seem to be hugely exagerating the potential market for a product like this anyway. It would be extremely niche. There's no doubt about that. Even more niche than the NEX.


...word is bondage...

[Jorpho]

Mr. Provinciano once put together an ISA interface for the NES PPU. I seem to recall in an interview he once said that although an emulator for the chip is fairly easy to program, it still wouldn't be 100% accurate.
http://www.bripro.com/low/hardware/nesvidcard/index.php

And then there's the HardSID, for C64 music devotees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HardSID

[savageone]

Nice dream but it'd be next to impossible to put together a machine playing a large number of systems like that, i.e. the NES/SNES/Genesis and whatever others you might have in mind. For one, the processors on the SNES & Genesis are different. The other problem is that the party building it would need to go through the trouble of making sure it plays the regular licensed games, not to mention the FX-chip games (SNES), the SVP-chip game for Genesis (Virtua Racing) and games using the same type of chip as Castlevania III did. So what if it does do all of those things?

That is all well and good but you can expect this super system to be ripped to shreds on the message boards if it doesn't play all of the Japanese stuff, the crappy unlicensed games from back in the day (like Color Dreams and AVE stuff) and the homebrew/aftermarket releases from recent years like Beggar Prince or the various NES/SNES repros. Every damn one of them, otherwise someone will be pissed. You can bet on it. Then you get into the issue of controllers and accessories. Gotta be compatible with at least two or three different Game Genie's or Action Replay devices, the various mouses, scopes, zappers, regular controllers and third party controllers for each system across the board. Can't have a Genesis guy using a knock off SNES controller with shoulder buttons to play the Genesis version of SFII. Need that Genesis controller port, too. Don't even get started on how well the games look, sound and run. Any old slowdown eliminated and do the games that never had problems with slowdown still run at the same speed? Does the music sound exactly the same or is it a tinny reproduction?

If a system was ever designed that played games from those 3 consoles and it didn't meet ALL of the standards above, every last one of them, you'd have people from here and other web sites moaning about false advertising and calling the company "charlatans." Making such a system might make a person (or company) a little money but I would guarantee it would be the most thankless task they ever perform in their entire life and one that will leave a lasting perception on whatever other products they do in the future, even playing cards or toilet paper.

You are thinking about it a bit too complexly. Ideally this type of system would amount to little more than a low-level PC and using emulation for the multiple system support, this would have the very nice advantage of being updated via software. Not unlike what the 80gig PS3 is doing for PS1/2 games.

As for the controllers.. support of certain peripherals could come down to the software in the system itself I suppose. Where as system specific controller support could be done via a simple adapter cable which can be sold separately, like the whatevercontroller-to-usb you can find these days. Really no need for every port type on the machine itself, not very cost effect there. :)

Of course you are right in the end and there are inherent flaws with this all. For me the biggest one is that this system ALREADY exists (kind of, any ways).. and everyone here owns one. It's your PC, and all you need are emulators and roms. But for those like me that is just not the same.

Never say never! ;)

[bangtango]

It's your PC, and all you need are emulators and roms. But for those like me that is just not the same.

Never say never! ;)

You're right. It isn't the same. At least not for the 16-bit systems. I can enjoy playing 8-bit NES games on my PC. That is largely because save states beat the heck out of being forced to sit on your butt for four hours to beat a game in one sitting or having to keep track of long passwords which are difficult to read (Faxanadu, for example).

If we are talking games for Super NES or Sega Genesis (my preferred 16-bitter), then the original hardware is a must for me. I don't know why I can tolerate the NES on my PC but not the Genesis/Super NES. I guess it because I am not much of a PC gamer so the only games I play on my PC are downloaded versions of old Apple II games (i.e. Number Munchers or Oregon Trail) that I found online and my NES stuff. So I'd say the trend is simpler games with a mere one or two buttons. Anything other than that and I gotta play it on a tv or a portable system.