Halloween/Texas Chainsaw Massacre Double-ender?

[kevates]

Is this a real, actually released cart or a reproduction? Does anyone else out there own one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3017521857

[Sylentwulf]

Here is a cut and paste directly from the auction to answer your questions :)

You are bidding on a custom made double ended cartridge containing Halloween and Texas Chainsaw Massacre for the Atari 2600, comes with a custom made box which is numbered. The games have been fully tested and work great. No more than 10 of these will ever be sold with the box so don't miss your chance to own this unique cartridge. The box also has a custom made insert that holds the cartrdige in place.

[rbudrick]

Wow! A worthless domestic pirate whose value is driven up by low production. YAY!!!!!! >) :hmm:

-Rob

[rbudrick]

God damn, look at that price. I'm in the wrong fucking business. I'm gonna be a pirater, screw selling computers.

-Rob

[Bratwurst]

Wow! A worthless domestic pirate whose value is driven up by low production. YAY!!!!!! >) :hmm:

-Rob

Let us not speak ill of CPUWIZ's handiwork! That takes some effort to make.

[Sniderman]

I think the seller is CPUWIZ, a mod at AtariAge. He's an OK guy. Here's what I think happened:

As I recall, he made one of these for himself, just as a lark, and posted it in a "see what I made!" type message. Well, folks went nuts about it and hammered him with "I want ones". Since the Xonox cart cases are rare enough to come by, he obviously could only lay his hands on 10 of 'em. And, since he wanted to give everybody an equal shake at them (instead of first-come-first-served and the bitching that would follow), he decided to just toss them on eBay. i think they're cool myself, but $200+ cool? Too rich for my blood. But I don't think he's doing this to screw the public. It's obviously yet another case of "Bidders Gone Wild."

I *am* curious what the reserve was though.

[Bratwurst]

Probably just enough to cover the cost of the programmable chips used and the xonox casings.

[video_game_addict]

He said the reserve was only $50 which seems more than fair to me. I'd buy one for that much. I think this is somewhat of a buyer's gone wild as you say, but it IS one cool looking package! Both Wizard games on one double ender Xonox case. Quite nifty! Almost as cool as your Venture II in the collector's box, which sold for what like $400? :-D

[rbudrick]

200 plus dollars is far far more than the cost of the casings....oh...you meant the reserve.

I still say I'm in the wrong business...

And to be frank, this would be ok if it were a homebrew game, but as cool as he may be, and I'm sure he is, it is still pirating for profit, and a damn hefty one at that.

-Rob

[rbudrick]

I Could understand if he sold them at cost, but ebaying them is wrong.

-Rob

[rbudrick]

Ok, sorry for the triple post. I just thought....if he is using the roms from an original cart and not burned eproms, I suppose this is all well and good (arguments? KInd of a gray area in that case). Any one know one way or the other about whether they are original roms?

-Rob

[video_game_addict]

Define "pirating" and "profit" and tell me how that differs from any of the hacks and repos that Atariage and other sites sell?

I think there's alot of time & effort involved in whats being sold, and he didn't start it at some high end price to try and profit off it.

[video_game_addict]

There's NO WAY he would deface the original carts to use the original roms. These are two very rare games, which would run you close to $200 loose in their original form anyway.

[mauigamer]

He also says that no more than 10 will be sold with the box. That means 2 weeks from now he could have a dutch auction with 100 for sale. He could also make a different box to go with the next batch. Way to pricey with no gurantee of limited edition.

[Sniderman]

Almost as cool as your Venture II in the collector's box, which sold for what like $400?Which is why I was not about to pass judgement in this case. I will also point out that I did not have a reserve either. If it sold for $10, it would've sold for $10. <Shrug>

[rbudrick]

Define "pirating" and "profit" and tell me how that differs from any of the hacks and repos that Atariage and other sites sell?

I think there's alot of time & effort involved in whats being sold, and he didn't start it at some high end price to try and profit off it.

Pirating is profiting off another's copyrighted material w/o permission. If I have to define profit for you, then you are a _________. Pretend this is Mad Libs. :D ;)

-Rob

[Sylentwulf]

This is EXACTLY like people yelling at me for selling a couple Dreamcast NES CD's.

Here are the facts in BOTH cases.

People E-mailed the seller (him and me) ASKING TO PAY for it, Admitting they were overpaying, but it was so cool, they didn't mind overpaying. The seller told the potential bidders that all they were paying for is the work gone into creating the items, and the buyer's said "that's fine!"

Now, if someone OFFERS TO PAY YOU FOR SOMETHING, Regardless of what it is, I say go for it. If you make a limited amount of items JUST to drive the price up, THEN you're an asshole.

So, to sum it up, Shut the Fuck up rbudrick. You want to make them? Then DO IT, NOONE IS STOPPING YOU. But until YOU learn how to do something, and go through the HUGE amount of trouble of doing it, DON'T FUCKING BITCH ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.

[kevates]

WOW! Ask a simple (and naive) question and look what happens! I just thought it looked kinda cool... let's turn this thread down a notch or two...

anyone care to comment on the weather?

[Sylentwulf]

Sorry the post went this way Kevates :) If you have any other questions about it, you may want to start a new post, this one is probly headed the way of the battlezone.

[Griking]

Define "pirating" and "profit" and tell me how that differs from any of the hacks and repos that Atariage and other sites sell?

I think there's alot of time & effort involved in whats being sold, and he didn't start it at some high end price to try and profit off it.


Simple, if you didn't actually design the game and you don't own the copyright to it then you have no right making copies of it and selling them.

The fact that he designed a dual cart and a nifty looking box means nothing to me. IMHO the only thing he has a right to sell would be the box alone.

Edit: At second thought even the boxes are a partial rip of someone elses work since the images are copyrighted.

And IMHO again it's no different than any of the other hacks being sold on Atari Age. Unless they got the copyright holders permission to make them I look at them all as illegal bootlegs. Probably the only reason that it's being ignored is because of the age of the originals and the original copyright holders either don't know or don't care.

[Griking]

This is EXACTLY like people yelling at me for selling a couple Dreamcast NES CD's.

Here are the facts in BOTH cases.

People E-mailed the seller (him and me) ASKING TO PAY for it, Admitting they were overpaying, but it was so cool, they didn't mind overpaying. The seller told the potential bidders that all they were paying for is the work gone into creating the items, and the buyer's said "that's fine!"

Now, if someone OFFERS TO PAY YOU FOR SOMETHING, Regardless of what it is, I say go for it. If you make a limited amount of items JUST to drive the price up, THEN you're an asshole.

So let me ask you this then.

Someone comes up to me and says;

"Gee, I really like your neighbor Sylentwulf's new projection television. I'll give you $100 if you sneak over his house when he's away and steal it for me."

Is this cool in your eyes?

In both cases someone is selling something that they don't own or have the legal right to sell.

But you're ok with the first example?

[kevates]

As long as this thread is going to be a battlezone...

Can anyone tell me why in the classic gaming community any attempt by anyone to make any kind of profit is considered evil? The materials "stuff" of entire hobby was built (let's be honest here), basically by individuals and corporations looking to make a buck off of consumers in the first place. Most of the cartridges and discs and docs and systems that so many of us covet were manufactured in third world countries for low wages under questionable working conditions to maximize individual and corporate profit. I don't like to be exploited any more than anyone else. But capitalism and the incentive of monitary profit are what our entire society is based on. If you don't like someone's practices or prices or attitude or whatever, don't buy/bid on their merchandise. If they really piss you off, five or six well placed posts on this board could organize a nice boycott of them. But don't complain that someone is trying to make a buck. It's just the way things are. As the hobby (some would say way of life) grows, we become a bigger market and there's gonna be more and more people trying to make a quick buck. But let's remember that they also might be developing excellent products that keep the hobby great.

For myself, I like to (when I can afford it) support innovative projects like this double-ender, because I'd like to see more projects like it. I thought it was great when the Venture II price went through the roof, for the same reason... it probably acted as an incentive to many innovative projects.

There will always be people in it for the love of the hobby only. At CGE 2K1, I saw one copy of the Venture II go for over $250 at an auction, I also witnessed an altruistic collector sell his to a 10 year old kid for the mere $20 he paid for it...

In fact, I bet the profit from most of these reproduction and homebrew projects goes right back into the hobby in a variety of ways. I'm sure the piracy debate will rage on, especially with obsolete technologies that can be easily copied. And I think it's an important debate. I just think these "profit equals evil" assertions and the related moralistic judgements are not worth the space here. I guess I'm convinced that the money I spend on these projects helps the hobby (and my collection) in the long run.

[Sylentwulf]

So let me ask you this then.
Someone comes up to me and says;
"Gee, I really like your neighbor Sylentwulf's new projection television. I'll give you $100 if you sneak over his house when he's away and steal it for me."
Is this cool in your eyes?
In both cases someone is selling something that they don't own or have the legal right to sell.
But you're ok with the first example?

This is the stupidest comparison I've seen in a while. so, you're saying, he drove to the producing company, broke in, stole the game chips (That have been in storage for 20 years apparently) and used the to sell on ebay for profit.

Now if he were to take a PICTURE of my TV, and list it as one of those "turn any TV into a 47" widescreen using this 3X Lens!" it would be comparable, and no, I would have no problem with someone doing this. Hell, I'll even supply the picture and wish him well

[Sylentwulf]

BTW Good post Kev, really, I hope some people read that one.

[Griking]

As long as this thread is going to be a battlezone...

Can anyone tell me why in the classic gaming community any attempt by anyone to make any kind of profit is considered evil? The materials "stuff" of entire hobby was built (let's be honest here), basically by individuals and corporations looking to make a buck off of consumers in the first place.

Yeah, but the difference here is that these companies made these products thus they have the right to sell them and at whatever price they feel like.

Most of the cartridges and discs and docs and systems that so many of us covet were manufactured in third world countries for low wages under questionable working conditions to maximize individual and corporate profit.

Just as much clothing and sneakers are. Is it ok to steal these products from your local Walmart because you don't like the way they were made?


For myself, I like to (when I can afford it) support innovative projects like this double-ender, because I'd like to see more projects like it. I thought it was great when the Venture II price went through the roof, for the same reason... it probably acted as an incentive to many innovative projects.

I on the other hand would rather see more original products such as Koffi: Yellow Kopter where the author was truely creative and designed his own game rather than violate copyright laws. There's a difference between hack and homebrew.

[Sniderman]

Yay! Once again, without any prompting, VII is dragged out as an example of "What's Wrong With The Retrogaming Hobby Today!" I can't begin to tell you how excited I am that my little hack is still placed on this pedestal of honor after more than 3 years! Truly, I look forward to these threads, knowing full well that I'll once again be thrust into the limelight as a shining example to be praised or scorned! Yay for me!
There's a difference between hack and homebrew.Hmmm...well, I assume that you also lump the voice-enhanced Berzerk, Paul Slocum's music additions to Combat and Berzerk, Pac-Man Arcade, and other "tweaks" in with those mean-ol' evil hacks. Personally, I view them as monstrous improvements over the originals, though not an original work by the "tweaker." (ANd I'm not lumping VII in with these, for there was some real number-crunching going on.) BUt a hack is a hack is a hack is a hack, right?

[Griking]

This is the stupidest comparison I've seen in a while. so, you're saying, he drove to the producing company, broke in, stole the game chips (That have been in storage for 20 years apparently) and used the to sell on ebay for profit.

Intellectual property is still property and it has an owner. Why is copying and selling roms or games any different than making and selling copies of Microsoft Office, audio CDs or DVDs? I hope that we both agree that it's illegal to make and sell copies of commercial products?

[ventrra]

I on the other hand would rather see more original products such as Koffi: Yellow Kopter where the author was truely creative and designed his own game rather than violate copyright laws. There's a difference between hack and homebrew.

Ah, well then, I'd suspect that you lump in parodies as well, no? In my eyes, turning Atari's Pac-man into TP Bug to make fun of it is not really different than Cletus Judd or "Weird" Al Yankovic making fun of various songs in parody. These people are allowed to make a profit from their parodies and those parodies are allowed as freedom of speach under the law.

[Bratwurst]

Intellectual property is intangible while material possessions are something you can hold and touch.. and sometimes feel.. caress.. precious couch.. so beautiful... mmmmmmmm baby.

I think Griking and rbudrick are just jealous because they didn't think of it first. I know I am! Damn you CPUWIZ for beating me to the punch!!!!! :D

[wberdan]

Yay! Once again, without any prompting, VII is dragged out as an example of "What's Wrong With The Retrogaming Hobby Today!" I can't begin to tell you how excited I am that my little hack is still placed on this pedestal of honor after more than 3 years! Truly, I look forward to these threads, knowing full well that I'll once again be thrust into the limelight as a shining example to be praised or scorned! Yay for me!
There's a difference between hack and homebrew.Hmmm...well, I assume that you also lump the voice-enhanced Berzerk, Paul Slocum's music additions to Combat and Berzerk, Pac-Man Arcade, and other "tweaks" in with those mean-ol' evil hacks. Personally, I view them as monstrous improvements over the originals, though not an original work by the "tweaker." (ANd I'm not lumping VII in with these, for there was some real number-crunching going on.) BUt a hack is a hack is a hack is a hack, right?

a hack is a hack in my opinion.... homebrews generally take more effort and deserve more credit (MY opinion).

willie

[wberdan]

Intellectual property is intangible while material possessions are something you can hold and touch.. and sometimes feel.. caress.. precious couch.. so beautiful... mmmmmmmm baby.

I think Griking and rbudrick are just jealous because they didn't think of it first. I know I am! Damn you CPUWIZ for beating me to the punch!!!!! :D

who is to say that more people arnt going to think of this, in an effort to make money?
thats going to be a great hobby killer, when more people follow in the footsteps of the people now making repros.
eventually, we'll be flooded with repros that no one can tell from originals.

willie

[Bratwurst]

Do note the level of facetiousnous intended in my last post. I'm aware the written word doesn't convey it easily without tone. The double-enders here are obviously easy to spot out as 'fakes' if someone knows their stuff, and the people throwing money at this are the type who most likely do. As for making repros and trying to pass them off as legit, that's a seperate issue imo and dependant on the integrity of the seller.

[wberdan]

Do note the level of facetiousnous intended in my last post. I'm aware the written word doesn't convey it easily without tone. The double-enders here are obviously easy to spot out as 'fakes' if someone knows their stuff, and the people throwing money at this are the type who most likely do. As for making repros and trying to pass them off as legit, that's a seperate issue imo and dependant on the integrity of the seller.

no, no, i understood- i just wanted to bring a point across, and i hadnt felt like it until then...

willie

[Bratwurst]

Ah, okay. The misunderstanding was on my part then.

[Keir]

Hmmm.... seems like no one's pointed out the most important factor here: Wizard (who made the games originally) is not losing any money by CPUWIZ selling his repros. Stealing is not wrong because one person gains, it's because another loses (as in the example of Sylentwulf's TV).

[Sylentwulf]

re: Keir - Ugh, THANK YOU, someone has a brain at least.

[orrimarrko]

I on the other hand would rather see more original products such as Koffi: Yellow Kopter where the author was truely creative and designed his own game rather than violate copyright laws. There's a difference between hack and homebrew.

I'm not a fan of homebrews (from a collector standpoint), but let's not confuse hacks, homebrews and reproductions.

In my opinion, there is a clear distinction between a hack and a reproduction. Take the "new" POLO 2600 game for example. Taking the original rom and reproducing it so that others can enjoy, while giving credit where applicable (to the original programmer, etc.) Is this a bad thing? I don't think so, because you own the original rom.

This Halloween/TX Chainsaw Massacre creation is just one guy's creative outlet. He made something cool, and wanted to get reimbursed for his time and materials. If, after that, people are continuing to offer to pay more money for it - then they're the idiots. He's not trying to pawn it off as an original, or an essential addition to the 2600 library, or anything like that.

I view this no different than someone who makes a conversion of a Neo-Geo MVS game to an AES game (for example.) Creative - yes. Essential - no.

It's no different than anything else, though - if you don't want it, don't buy it.

Oh, by the way - if the high bidder is doing it because they think the concept is cool, and just wants it, great. If they are doing it for investment value, because there will only be 10 produced - they're a fucking idiot. (sorry, just my opinion.)

You would be better off spending $200 to try and acquire the actual games in original boxes.

Rant on...

Steve

[kevates]

So what happened to the auction? Did it get pulled by ebay or cancelled by the seller?

[digitalpress]

According to CPUWIZ' thread in the Battlezone, it was cancelled and WE are the reason why!

I hope that isn't the case, why does he think that? I e-mailed him last night but have not heard back yet.

[Queen Of The Felines]

According to CPUWIZ' thread in the Battlezone, it was cancelled and WE are the reason why!

I hope that isn't the case, why does he think that? I e-mailed him last night but have not heard back yet.

Isn't it obvious, Joe? We're ALWAYS the bad guys! ;)

Kristine

[neschampion]

Isn't it obvious, Joe? We're ALWAYS the bad guys!


Well, it certainly is odd that a vast majority of auctions like these that get posted to message boards get pulled whereas people like armyx who deal tons of protos through eBay on almost a daily basis never have their auctions pulled.

It could very well be someone from Atariage that reports these things to eBay but seeing as the people there are much more open to things like CPUWIZ's reproductions and that he also received emails from people here expressing their distaste, it is unlikely at best.

[Vice Guy]

I don't have all my facts straight but CPUWIZ was the highest bidder on my auction until I found out today that EBay had NARU'ed him.

Hopefully no one from here or AtariAge decided to report his auction.

I've never had problems with him myself...won a couple of successful auctions from him in the past.

I just think that EBay is cracking down on the wrong people! >:(

[wberdan]

Hmmm.... seems like no one's pointed out the most important factor here: Wizard (who made the games originally) is not losing any money by CPUWIZ selling his repros. Stealing is not wrong because one person gains, it's because another loses (as in the example of Sylentwulf's TV).

so, do you condone the fact that he makes reproductions of games that ARE owned by people who hold copyrights to them? which, to my knowledge, he does.

willie

[Captain Wrong]

According to CPUWIZ' thread in the Battlezone, it was cancelled and WE are the reason why!

I hope that isn't the case, why does he think that? I e-mailed him last night but have not heard back yet.

Isn't it obvious, Joe? We're ALWAYS the bad guys! ;)

Kristine

*sigh* It's sooo true.

[Keir]

Hmmm.... seems like no one's pointed out the most important factor here: Wizard (who made the games originally) is not losing any money by CPUWIZ selling his repros. Stealing is not wrong because one person gains, it's because another loses (as in the example of Sylentwulf's TV).

so, do you condone the fact that he makes reproductions of games that ARE owned by people who hold copyrights to them? which, to my knowledge, he does.

willie

If someone is selling repros and the copyright owner either asks them to stop or is actively making money off that copyright then I would say they should stop.

[punkoffgirl]

I'm sorry, but I just have to say..

Video Life.

That's all I'll say, and it's probably too much anyway.