Super Nintendo Games with Super Speed?

[idrougge]

How about Super Bomberman with 4 players? No slowdown in that game, despite much action.

Well, no, not really. For one thing, Bomberman does not scroll. That means that there is a lot less (less relative coordinates, for one thing) to keep count of.

[Ed Oscuro]

I knew this was gonna be about Blast Processing...sheesh...

One thing that may have held back the SNES at first was the use of a slower ROM (cartridge held data) transfer speed - I dunno where I read that at this point, so somebody else would have to comment on that. I don't know how the Genesis compared, of course.

Even without that, the SNES apparently was quite slow moving data, which was what the main CPU is mostly used for in most cases. That is something the Genesis potentially could do better.

Of course, later in the lifetime of the SNES it became practical enough to put in specialized hardware chips (Super FX), so the 68000 in the Genesis ended up not being much of an advantage when the system can't put nearly as many colors onscreen.


It takes Amiga programmers...
To brag about their demo accomplishments? Yeah, sure... :P

[j_factor]

How about Super Bomberman with 4 players? No slowdown in that game, despite much action.

Bomberman has very little "action". The explosions aren't fancy or anything (they just kind of "appear"). It takes place on a static, grid-based screen, and all you do is place bombs. I mean, Warlords for Atari 2600 doesn't have any slowdown either, but, that doesn't really mean anything.


I tend to doubt the fact that a game is four players simultaneously really affects the processing (in fact it likely decreases it, because it is one less thing for the AI to do). Processing input is a pretty simple and non-processor intensive thing (I have never heard of an instance where excessive controller input actually slows down a game).

How much of a difference it makes depends on the type of game, but, all other things equal, more simultaneous players definitely requires more power. Controller input isn't the only thing that's added -- there's animations, collision detection, and so on.

[Cryomancer]

We should totally do an exhaustive compare/contrast on SNES and Genny multiplatform games, and directly similar games.

We'd have to get some impartial people though.

[DDCecil]

Meh, I read the topic title, and thought I'd add this from my Super Mario World hack (Not getting into the whole SNES/Genesis debate. I like both systems and don't give two shits which one has the better games).

Anywho, it is just the background scrolling (and not the sprite), but I'm amazed Nintendo didn't do anything with it in the actual game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwvbmtBImS8

[badinsults]

Bomberman has very little "action". The explosions aren't fancy or anything (they just kind of "appear"). It takes place on a static, grid-based screen, and all you do is place bombs. I mean, Warlords for Atari 2600 doesn't have any slowdown either, but, that doesn't really mean anything.



How much of a difference it makes depends on the type of game, but, all other things equal, more simultaneous players definitely requires more power. Controller input isn't the only thing that's added -- there's animations, collision detection, and so on.

I had a discussion about this issue with my roommate (who makes the game Bloodtoll (http://bloodtoll.com/)), and he says that the amount of players does not make much of a difference in terms of processing. The main thing that eats away at processing is the graphics (and to a lesser extent, sound). Even things like AI and collision detection do not require much processing.

The snes had a superior graphics and sound chip, and thus once developers were accustomed to programming on the snes, they were able to produce games that matched the speed of the Genesis, and have superior graphics and sound. There are already many examples given earlier.

[Zebbe]

The snes had a superior graphics and sound chip, and thus once developers were accustomed to programming on the snes, they were able to produce games that matched the speed of the Genesis, and have superior graphics and sound. There are already many examples given earlier.

What you're doing here is eating the cake and saving it. The main processor of the SNES is still inferior than the MD's. The games using most processing on the MD cannot be done on the SNES and the best graphical games on the SNES cannot be done on the MD. It's as simple as that.

[Icarus Moonsight]

We should totally do an exhaustive compare/contrast on SNES and Genny multiplatform games, and directly similar games.

We'd have to get some impartial people though.

And there is the rub. Even though I enjoy both systems I still have a personal bias twards Genesis titles. I love that FM sound, weird I know. Having a Nomad also puts the Genesis multi-ports over the top, since they are also portable... with out forking over a small fortune to Ben Heck. LOL

[Rob2600]

Red Zone is probably the most impressive game for the system. ... Gameplay-wise, it is a mission-based helicopter combat game like Desert Strike, except with a top-down view (which rotates with your helicopter)

Pilotwings had levels exactly like that too, in 1991. :) I'm interested to give Red Zone a shot though.


The Adventures of Batman & Robin...Toy Story...Lightening Force...Ranger-X...Yu Yu Hakusho...

I'll search for some Genesis ROMs today. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised.


I love that FM sound, weird I know.

FM audio is okay, but I can't see how anyone could prefer it to SNES audio. To me, FM audio is the one that sounds thin and scratchy, not the other way around, and I feel that many SNES soundtracks still hold up perfectly today, over twelve years later.


(F-Zero) I don't see what's so impressive either, on the SNES, that is. On the Megadrive, it would have been very impressive.

Try to think in terms of 1991. Yes, F-Zero might seem simple by today's standards, but in 1991, my friends and I had never played such a smooth 3D racing game like that before. Back then, it was amazing, especially for a first-generation/launch game.


Again, in 1989 and 1990, many Genesis games I played at my friend's house impressed me. They were great. Then, I received an SNES for Christmas in 1991 and the games were even more impressive.

Look at the graphics in first-generation Genesis beat-'em-ups like Altered Beast, Last Battle, or Golden Axe vs. a first-generation SNES beat-'em-up like Final Fight. To me, Final Fight looks and sounds better. Screen shots:

Altered Beast screen shot (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/altered-beast/screenshots/gameShotId,33747/)
Altered Beast screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/altered-beast/screenshots/gameShotId,33756/)
Last Battle screen shot 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/last-battle-/screenshots/gameShotId,115748/)
Last Battle screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/last-battle-/screenshots/gameShotId,115751/)
Golden Axe screen shot 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/golden-axe/screenshots/gameShotId,39419/)
Golden Axe screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/golden-axe/screenshots/gameShotId,39422/)

Final Fight screen shot 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/final-fight/screenshots/gameShotId,49330/)
Final Fight screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/final-fight/screenshots/gameShotId,104461/)

Look at the graphics in a first-generation Genesis racing game like Super Monaco GP vs. the graphics in a first-generation SNES racing game like F-Zero. To me, F-Zero looks and sounds better, especially in motion. Screen shots:

Super Monaco GP screen shot 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/super-monaco-gp/screenshots/gameShotId,60173/)
Super Monaco GP screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/super-monaco-gp/screenshots/gameShotId,60174/)

F-Zero screen shot 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/f-zero/screenshots/gameShotId,27180/)
F-Zero screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/f-zero/screenshots/gameShotId,224348/)


Regarding first-generation action/platform games, I remember Castle of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse being very good on the Genesis, but in terms of hardware special effects, Super Mario World featured nice touches like rotation, true transparency, and foreground layers. Screen shots:

Castle of Illusion screen shot 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/castle-of-illusion-starring-mickey-mouse/screenshots/gameShotId,112163/)
Castle of Illusion screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/castle-of-illusion-starring-mickey-mouse/screenshots/gameShotId,40011/)

Super Mario World screen shot 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/super-mario-world/screenshots/gameShotId,222230/)
Super Mario World screen shot 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/super-mario-world/screenshots/gameShotId,218708/)

Both consoles have fun, well-produced games though.

[j_factor]

I had a discussion about this issue with my roommate (who makes the game Bloodtoll (http://bloodtoll.com/)), and he says that the amount of players does not make much of a difference in terms of processing. The main thing that eats away at processing is the graphics (and to a lesser extent, sound). Even things like AI and collision detection do not require much processing.

Perhaps that is true for FPS games, but I think the rules are very different for fighters. Bloodtoll takes place in a large environment, of which each player is a relatively small part. A fighting game consists only of players and a background, with the players being the majority of the game itself. It's true that AI and collision detection don't require "much" processing, comparatively speaking, for 3D games on modern hardware. But it's much different for older, and 2D games. The amount of players makes a very obvious and visible difference in Contra 3, for example.


FM audio is okay, but I can't see how anyone could prefer it to SNES audio. To me, FM audio is the one that sounds thin and scratchy, not the other way around, and I feel that many SNES soundtracks still hold up perfectly today, over twelve years later.

I think there are many Genesis soundtracks that hold up, too. I still think Comix Zone, Vectorman, Contra Hard Corps, The Ooze, Streets of Rage 2, Toejam & Earl, etc. have soundtracks that are nothing short of awesome. They don't sound scratchy at all to me. The SNES sound chip was way better for sound effects, but for music, I'm not convinced of its superiority.

[Rob2600]

We should totally do an exhaustive compare/contrast on SNES and Genny multiplatform games, and directly similar games.

That's not a bad idea, although multi-platform titles usually don't take advantage of the more powerful console's extra features. As you suggest, comparing similar exclusive games might be better (Golden Axe II or III vs. Magic Sword or Actraiser 2, for example).


I think there are many Genesis soundtracks that hold up, too. ... They don't sound scratchy at all to me. The SNES sound chip was way better for sound effects, but for music, I'm not convinced of its superiority.

Play the Donkey Kong Country games, F-Zero, or almost any SNES Konami game (Super Castlevania IV, Batman Returns, Contra III, TMNT IV, etc.). If you use at least a decent-quality stereo system, they'll sound great. :)

Keep in mind, the audio quality might not blow you away by today's standards, but they were absolutely impressive twelve to sixteen years ago and still hold up nicely.

The music in Capcom's SNES games were good too, but I felt like it could've been even a little bit better.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

We should totally do an exhaustive compare/contrast on SNES and Genny multiplatform games, and directly similar games.

We'd have to get some impartial people though.
Good luck.

It seem slike as the focus of the clossic gaming community begins to shift away from the NES and into the 16-bit systems, people are more and more going to be reliving the console war of that are as much as the games themselves. It's disappointing to me, but it's predictable since the overall "aura" of the system and era is a big part of what a lot people like about classic gaming and colletcing, I think.


...word is bondage...

[idrougge]

FM audio is okay, but I can't see how anyone could prefer it to SNES audio. To me, FM audio is the one that sounds thin and scratchy, not the other way around, and I feel that many SNES soundtracks still hold up perfectly today, over twelve years later.

Believe it or not, but I'm a fairly recent FM convert. I know what you mean, because we've probably heard the same tunes made by incompetent fools who didn't know how to handle an FM synthesiser. Just listen to how bad most Gameboy games sound because the sound is threwn together by someone who would much rather play with his 24-track recording studio than a four-channel PSG chip.
A lot of Megadrive games do sound thin and scratchy, notably those made outside Japan. But Sonic does not sound thin, neither does any soundtrack by Yuzo Koshiro.
Basically, the SNES can never generate as deep, rich bass sounds as Sega's Yamaha chip. As usual, Nintendo knew how to make really good use of the SNES sound in SMW, but a lot of others tried to push it too far. Developers were not that fond of the SNES's limited sound memory, but then many of them were obviously not fond of FM synthesis either.


Try to think in terms of 1991. Yes, F-Zero might seem simple by today's standards, but in 1991, my friends and I had never played such a smooth 3D racing game like that before. Back then, it was amazing, especially for a first-generation/launch game.

Oh, I agree. In 1991, F-Zero was the bee's knees, and a great way to display the specific capabilities of the SNES. It is only in hindsight that F-Zero is less impressive, simply because it does only what was an apparent application of the SNES custom chips.


Look at the graphics in first-generation Genesis beat-'em-ups like Altered Beast, Last Battle, or Golden Axe vs. a first-generation SNES beat-'em-up like Final Fight. To me, Final Fight looks and sounds better.

Those are difficult to judge by themselves. All those are arcade conversions, and if the sprites were smaller on Sega's arcade games than on Capcom's, they would naturally be smaller on the home conversion, too.
I suppose that sprite size is what you think makes Final Fight look better; it is a fairly good metric for judging a system's power since all consoles have different limitations when it comes to size and number of sprites.


Look at the graphics in a first-generation Genesis racing game like Super Monaco GP vs. the graphics in a first-generation SNES racing game like F-Zero. To me, F-Zero looks and sounds better, especially in motion. Screen shots:

Naturally, it does. Super Monaco GP was never a very good game in the home, and the conversion lost most of what made the game stand out in the arcades. A shame, since it was Sega's own game.
I don't think anyone's attempted to make a Mode 7-like racing game on the Megadrive, but I know that it took the Amiga developers five years or so to find out how to reimplement that without SNES hardware.


Regarding first-generation action/platform games, I remember Castle of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse being very good on the Genesis, but in terms of hardware special effects, Super Mario World featured nice touches like rotation, true transparency, and foreground layers.

Well, we could also compare with a technical tour-de-force like Alex Kidd in Enchanted Castle. (Just joking.)
It's an undisputable fact that the SNES had so many special 2D effects at its disposal, and Nintendo certainly tried to make use of all those in SMB4. Sonic managed full-screen rotation, but true transparency would be very difficult.

[idrougge]

We should totally do an exhaustive compare/contrast on SNES and Genny multiplatform games, and directly similar games.

We'd have to get some impartial people though.

Sign me up. I'm an Amiga person, so I hate both consoles equally. ;-)

[Rob2600]

I'm a fairly recent FM convert. I know what you mean, because we've probably heard the same tunes made by incompetent fools who didn't know how to handle an FM synthesiser. ... A lot of Megadrive games do sound thin and scratchy, notably those made outside Japan. But Sonic does not sound thin, neither does any soundtrack by Yuzo Koshiro.

Yes, some Genesis games sound very good, like the Sonic the Hedgehog games. I think overall though, many Genesis games (including Sonic the Hedgehog) sound a little bit more like old 1980s synthesizers and fake instruments and many SNES games sound a little bit more like professional synthesizers and realistic instruments.

Do any Genesis games have music that sounds as real and high-quality as Batman Returns, Super Castlevania IV, Square's RPGs, or the Super Star Wars games, for example?


Basically, the SNES can never generate as deep, rich bass sounds as Sega's Yamaha chip.

Is that a fact? To my ears, a lot of SNES music has deeper, stronger bass.

[j_factor]

Play the Donkey Kong Country games, F-Zero, or almost any SNES Konami game (Super Castlevania IV, Batman Returns, Contra III, TMNT IV, etc.). If you use at least a decent-quality stereo system, they'll sound great. :)

I own most of those games. I agree that the DKC games sound great, but I don't really agree with the others. I never even noticed the soundtrack to F-Zero one way or the other, so it can't be that great. Castlevania IV is nothing special in terms of audio quality at all (although that first-level tune is extremely catchy). Contra III has a bunch of boring ambient fluff and its soundtrack isn't a fraction as good as the soundtrack of Contra Hard Corps.


Yes, some Genesis games sound very good, like the Sonic the Hedgehog games. I think overall though, many Genesis games (including Sonic the Hedgehog) sound a little bit more like old 1980s synthesizers and fake instruments and many SNES games sound a little bit more like professional synthesizers and realistic instruments.

A synthesizer is nothing short of a real instrument. I guess you're not a fan of electronica.

[Rob2600]

I agree that the DKC games sound great, but I don't really agree with the others. I never even noticed the soundtrack to F-Zero one way or the other, so it can't be that great. Castlevania IV is nothing special in terms of audio quality at all (although that first-level tune is extremely catchy). Contra III has a bunch of boring ambient fluff...

I'm a classically-trained musician, so I notice music more than most people. Trust me, the music in Super Castlevania IV is impressive, in terms of both arrangement and technical achievement.

Listening to Super Castlevania IV's music in 1991 was quite an experience. The strings, flute, harp, and piano sounded almost real. The drums, bass, organ, and harpsichord sounded great, too. Plus, some instruments featured effects like phase shifting and echo...and the whole soundtrack was mixed in beautiful stereo.


A synthesizer is nothing short of a real instrument. I guess you're not a fan of electronica.

I wrote, "Overall, many Genesis games (including Sonic the Hedgehog) sound a little bit more like old 1980s synthesizers and fake instruments and many SNES games sound a little bit more like professional synthesizers and realistic instruments." Of course a synthesizer is a real instrument, but there's a difference between a $150 synthesizer, which sounds good, and a $400 synthesizer, which sounds even better.

[Ed Oscuro]

The games using most processing on the MD cannot be done on the SNES
Not true due to SNES expansion chips. Perhaps it seems to be a technicality, but the fact remained that DOOM shipped for the SNES and looks mostly like it's supposed to. Duke Nukem 3D shipped for the Genesis, as well, but it looks like garbage.


and the best graphical games on the SNES cannot be done on the MD. It's as simple as that.
This is true, of course. It's down to the colors.

Nothing against the Genesis in my pointing this out; it came out roughly two years earlier. One could argue that they scrimped on hardware design, neglected to future-proof it for expansions, and that the PC-Engine/Turbo Grafx (which came out roughly to years before the Genesis/MD) had better colors, I suppose.

Also, cheers to Rob2600 for defending Super CV 4's music...it catches some flak from people who think that it's not great audio because not every track is a pulse-pounding boss beat. Actually, I think some of the tracks are underwhelming because they seem to borrow a bit much from cliche "classical" themes, but what's original here (the forest, sunken temple stage, etc.) is very original, so it balances out nicely.

[j_factor]

I'm a classically-trained musician, so I notice music more than most people. Trust me, the music in Super Castlevania IV is impressive, in terms of both arrangement and technical achievement.

Listening to Super Castlevania IV's music in 1991 was quite an experience. The strings, flute, harp, and piano sounded almost real. The drums, bass, organ, and harpsichord sounded great, too.

Um, okay. I'm not a classically trained musician, but I have to say that regarding the bolded part, to me, they simply don't. At all. To me, it sounds very much like a bunch of chip-generated videogame music.

I will also say that I don't consider organic instruments to be automatically superior to synthesizers and drum machines.


I wrote, "Overall, many Genesis games (including Sonic the Hedgehog) sound a little bit more like old 1980s synthesizers and fake instruments and many SNES games sound a little bit more like professional synthesizers and realistic instruments."

That is very vague though... what constitutes a "professional" synth? Synthesizers certainly didn't improve much from the 80s (unless you mean early 80s) to the 90s. FM synth wasn't bettered by some alternate technology as the 80s drew to a close; much hype was given to samplers as the new instrument of choice, but they failed to supplant FM synths (and were often placed in a secondary role to supplement the synth). FM synth was used by many professional, successful artists such as Nine Inch Nails, Meat Beat Manifesto, and The Prodigy. It's still in use to this day (although it has, like 'real' synthesizers in general, diminished in favor of software).

SNES could do FM synth, but only one channel. Genesis did 5-6 channels (depending on the game, as one channel was convertible).

[j_factor]

Not true due to SNES expansion chips. Perhaps it seems to be a technicality, but the fact remained that DOOM shipped for the SNES and looks mostly like it's supposed to.

The exact phrase he used was "couldn't be done on SNES". If a game needed additional hardware in the cartridge, it couldn't be done on SNES. The SNES hardware didn't do DOOM.

Genesis could do expansion chips the same as SNES could. It just didn't (except for Virtua Racing), because the R&D was never put into going that route. But if you're going to argue what "could" be done on each system based on expansion chips, then both systems' capabilities become nearly limitless.

It's an absolutely meaningless comparison, because I think we all agree that the 68000 has nothing on the SNES+SuperFX2 combination. At least I, right now, completely concede to you that the Genesis hardware itself is not as powerful as the SNES hardware with a SuperFX2. I would never argue otherwise, and I don't really care. The stock hardware is the issue at hand.


This is true, of course. It's down to the colors.

Nothing against the Genesis in my pointing this out; it came out roughly two years earlier. One could argue that they scrimped on hardware design, neglected to future-proof it for expansions, and that the PC-Engine/Turbo Grafx (which came out roughly to years before the Genesis/MD) had better colors, I suppose.

Turbografx and Genesis both have the same size color palette -- 512. Although, their color palettes are different despite having the same number (but really, which colors are "better" is purely subjective). The Turbo isn't limited to 64 colors on-screen, but, IMO, the total palette being as low as 512 is a more significant restriction. Also, unless I'm mistaken, there is no Turbografx equivalent of the Genny's shadow/highlight mode.

64 simultaneous colors wasn't bad -- in 1989, it wasn't common for even an expensive computer to do more, so for a $190 game system it was just dandy. Few complained about Halfbrite mode on the Amiga, but then again, it also drew on a palette of thousands. Sega's own 16-bit arcade hardware generally had 4096 colors to choose from. Hell, even the Lynx had 4096 colors (although it could only display 16 simultaneously). In my opinion, more simultaneous colors falls into the realm of "would've been nice", but the total color palette was the biggest oversight (if not blunder) in the system's design.

[smokehouse]

I'm a classically-trained musician, so I notice music more than most people. Trust me, the music in Super Castlevania IV is impressive, in terms of both arrangement and technical achievement.

Listening to Super Castlevania IV's music in 1991 was quite an experience. The strings, flute, harp, and piano sounded almost real. The drums, bass, organ, and harpsichord sounded great, too. Plus, some instruments featured effects like phase shifting and echo...and the whole soundtrack was mixed in beautiful stereo.

I couldn’t agree more, to this day I think that Castlevania IV has one of the best soundtracks to be found on a SNES game (Final Fantasy III gets a vote as well). With a good sound system it is truly amazing that it is on such a small cart. No, it’s not CD quality but it is amazing for it’s time and (in my opinion) is better than 90% of what’s found on the Genesis.

Ass for the bass issue, I don’t quite get that one. If I still had a RTA (it was stolen form work…bummer), I’d do some tests on it to see how low Castlevania goes but I can tell you it has some thump to it.






Finally, not to toot my own horn but I am an audio technician. I have done pro/home audio for years, I’m also a speaker builder and have done custom sub work for years…

[smokehouse]

Edited for length...

Ok then, Genesis wins.


Is that what you’re looking to hear? Although it was limited in sound capabilities, had a far weaker color pallet, far less colors on screen (somehow this doesn’t come up as much, this is a big deal) poorer resolution, less sprites on screen and couldn’t do many of the special effects that the SNES could, it was a far better system.


BTW, here’s the system specs pulled out of the 1993 EGM Buyer’s Guide:

(Listed Genesis/SNES)
Processor- 68000/65816
Processor speed- 7.6MHz/3.58MHz
Resolution- 320x224/512x448
Colors available- 512/32768
Colors on screen- 64/256
Max sprites- 80/128
Sprite size- 32x32/64x64

Compare this to the famed Neo Geo, the strongest of the 16-bit generation:

Processor- 68000
Processor speed- 14MHz
Resolution- 320x224
Colors available- 65536
Colors on screen- 4069
Max sprites- 380
Sprite size- programmable

Part of reason why Neo Geo games are so beautiful is due to that huge color pallet. It also can do more due to the huge amount of sprites. See what I’m getting at? SNES titles could have more realism and depth right out of the box due to having a large color pallet and # of colors usable on screen. And...even the famed Neo Geo had slow-down in programmed incorrectly, look at Metal Slug 2, it was terrible. They came out with Metal Slug X and everything was fixed, no added processors, just better programming. The same thing happened with the SENS...better programming = no slowdown.


The only weak part of the SNES was it’s processor…that’s it. Programmers found their war around it after a very short time and it rarely posed a problem after that. There were some stand out Genesis titles but many suffered form lackluster sound and horrible color pallet (which makes a big difference BTW). Ok, it moves fast but the outdated sound chip and poor use of color in most games really made them seem outdated quick.

The reason why the Genesis SVP chip wasn’t used because of cost, it was too expensive. If they could have done it as cheap as Nintendo did, they would have used the crap out of it. When Virtua Racing was released, it cost just slightly less than the entire Genesis system was retailing for…that’s why it was not used.

Count it, don’t count it, the fact is that without any extra cost to the consumer and without any add-on hardware (ala 32X or Sega CD), Nintendo made games that were either not available or not possible on the Genesis towards the end of both system’s life span. The Genesis had been designed years earlier than the SNES had been and it seems to me that Sega had only a few things planned for it expansion wise. When the SENS was released, it had been designed to work with add-on chips. It wasn’t a band-aid, it was in the design from the beginning, thus the extra slots to except he expansion pins on games like Star Fox and Super Mario RPG.


I have a feeling this conversation will never end. SNES fans like myself will keep bringing up titles and Genesis fans will keep bringing up the added chip thing…

[Zebbe]

smokehouse: I can also bring up Genesis titles, because it's the games that make the system :). And there were many Genesis titles that couldn't be done on the SNES without an expensive extra chip. I can also add that I prefer the sound of the Genesis (opinions are like asses - everyone has one you know). Are you sure that 512x448 was the standard resolution of the SNES? I am not, I think it was 256x224.

[smokehouse]

smokehouse: I can also bring up Genesis titles, because it's the games that make the system :). And there were many Genesis titles that couldn't be done on the SNES without an expensive extra chip. I can also add that I prefer the sound of the Genesis (opinions are like asses - everyone has one you know). Are you sure that 512x448 was the standard resolution of the SNES? I am not, I think it was 256x224.

You’re correct in a way but one thing is that the FX chip or other added chips didn’t add any extra cost to the games they were in. One of the most expensive SNES titles I can remember was FFIII with a retail of $79. There were possibly a few that were more costly but I don’t recall the chipped games being among that list.

The resolution listed was taken from the 1993 EGM buyer’s guide…they could be wrong but that’s what’s listed. Possibly they listed a max resolution? Not sure. If tha was the case however, they would have listed the max resolution for the rest of the systems as well. The NES had a resolution of 256x240 BTW...


Wiki lists the SNES as having the following:

“Progressive: 256x224, 512x224, 256x239, 512x239
Interlaced: 512x448, 512x478”

[Rob2600]

Wiki lists the SNES as having the following:

“Progressive: 256x224, 512x224, 256x239, 512x239
Interlaced: 512x448, 512x478”

As I wrote in an earlier post, according to Wikipedia.org:

SNES resolutions (NTSC):
256x224, 256x239, 512x224, 512x239, 512x448, 512x478

Genesis resolutions (NTSC):
256x224, 256x448, 320x224, 320x448

[smokehouse]

For shits and grins…here’s the listed resolution of the other systems:

NES- 256x240
SNES- 512x448
SMS- 240x226
Genesis- 320x224
TG-16- 400x270
Neo Geo- 320x224
Lynx- 160x102
GameBoy- 140x102
Game Gear- 160x146
Turbo Express- 400x270

[Zebbe]

You’re correct in a way but one thing is that the FX chip or other added chips didn’t add any extra cost to the games they were in. One of the most expensive SNES titles I can remember was FFIII with a retail of $79. There were possibly a few that were more costly but I don’t recall the chipped games being among that list.

Here is a quote from Shigeru Miyamoto in the magazine Super Power from summer 1995, answering the question why there are so few Super FX games: "The chips are apparently too expensive and we have also problems with the speed in the games we have done. We have actually developed a couple of games which became so slow we simply couldn't release them."
I guess the chips didn't help their purpose of outdoing the MD on the processor account, and if the games were no more expensive to you, then they must have given away those chips for free.


The resolution listed was taken from the 1993 EGM buyer’s guide…they could be wrong but that’s what’s listed. Possibly they listed a max resolution? Not sure. If tha was the case however, they would have listed the max resolution for the rest of the systems as well. The NES had a resolution of 256x240 BTW...

Here is another quote, this time from Wikipedia: "Resolution: between 256x224 and 512x448. Most games used 256x224 pixels since higher resoulutions caused slowdown, flicker, and/or had increased limitations on layers and colors (due to memory bandwidth constraints); the higher resolutions were used for less processor-intensive games, in-game menus, text, and high resolution images."

[smokehouse]

Here is a quote from Shigeru Miyamoto in the magazine Super Power from summer 1995, answering the question why there are so few Super FX games: "The chips are apparently too expensive and we have also problems with the speed in the games we have done. We have actually developed a couple of games which became so slow we simply couldn't release them."
I guess the chips didn't help their purpose of outdoing the MD on the processor account, and if the games were no more expensive to you, then they must have given away those chips for free.

I don’t know how old you are but I’m telling you, many “chipped” games were no more costly than regular titles, I was there, of age and buying titles at that time. Nintendo might have eaten the costs…I don’t know but the cost was not passed on to the customer like Virtua Racing.




Here is another quote, this time from Wikipedia: "Resolution: between 256x224 and 512x448. Most games used 256x224 pixels since higher resoulutions caused slowdown, flicker, and/or had increased limitations on layers and colors (due to memory bandwidth constraints); the higher resolutions were used for less processor-intensive games, in-game menus, text, and high resolution images."

I don't care...resolution is resolution. Not every Genesis title ran smooth as butter either but the proc was still faster. SNES had higher resolution, whether or not it wasn't always used the best I'm not sure.

[Zebbe]

I don’t know how old you are but I’m telling you, many “chipped” games were no more costly than regular titles, I was there, of age and buying titles at that time. Nintendo might have eaten the costs…I don’t know but the cost was not passed on to the customer like Virtua Racing.

I was there too. In Sweden, SNES titles were generally more expensive than MD titles. Including these chips you didn't always knew about may have been the reason.


I don't care...resolution is resolution. Not every Genesis title ran smooth as butter either but the proc was still faster. SNES had higher resolution, whether or not it wasn't always used the best I'm not sure.
Well if the higher resolution causes limitations in colours, layers, slowdown and flicker, I don't think you can have it and 256 simultanous colous, 128 sprites, four layers and mode 7. Maybe if you use one of those free Super FX chips. Just because the resolution is possible doesn't mean you can use it just like that. It's the same with those 256 colours, 128 sprites, four layers etc. The slow processor can't handle all that. The MD processor is more powerful and can therefor use a higher standard resolution, have more sprites without slowdown, 3D effects without special chips etc. Don't make it sound like the processor is pointless, it helps a lot in achieving those hardware specifications.

[smokehouse]

I was there too. In Sweden, SNES titles were generally more expensive than MD titles. Including these chips you didn't always knew about may have been the reason.


Oh, so your basing your opinion of game costs on how they sold overseas. If SNES titles were more costly across the board what does that have to do with chipped games?

Zippo…


Here in the US, these games had no extra costs involved. End of story. If your country has some other deal that's their own issue and I strongly doubt that it had anything to with the chips contained in the games.







I’ll give you the same satisfaction I gave out earlier…

The Genesis was truly the better system, you (and all other Sega Fanboys) win. Now go hug your console, tell it "We've won buddy...good going!!!" and have a nice day.

[Gentlegamer]

I was there too. In Sweden, SNES titles were generally more expensive than MD titles.Which was generally more popular in Sweden, Super Nintendo or Mega Drive?

[Zebbe]

Oh, so your basing your opinion of game costs on how they sold overseas. If SNES titles were more costly across the board what does that have to do with chipped games?

I don't know. Probably as much as extra chips has to do with stock hardware.


Here in the US, these games had no extra costs involved. End of story. If your country has some other deal that their own issue and I strongly doubt that it had anything to with the ships contained in the games.

Maybe the Swedish retailers didn't want to give away the chips for free like the American retailers...


The Genesis was truly the better system, you (and all other Sega Fanboys) win. Now go hug your console, tell it "We've won buddy...good going!!!" and have a nice day.

I'm not a Sega fanboy, it's just that the MD is my favourite system. I don't think it's better than the SNES at everything even though you might think so. As said, overall the graphics are better on SNES and ofcourse it has its pros in sound that the MD can't do. But when it comes to processing I don't think you just can take a master programmer to achieve the same result as with a more than twice as powerful processor. I prefer the Entertainment System over the Master System, the PS1 and 2 over Saturn and Dreamcast, Game Boy over Game Gear. What makes a console better than the other is its games and nothing else. I'd take the 8-bitters and 16-bitters over the PS3, Wii and 360 any day.

By the way, I can't hug my console. My arms don't get around the CD and 32X, they are too big ;).

[Zebbe]

Which was generally more popular in Sweden, Super Nintendo or Mega Drive?

Hard to tell. In my area it was the MD, in other areas it was the SNES. I think they were pretty equal, but the MD may have sold more thanks to two Swedish hockey games that were extremely popular.

[Gentlegamer]

Hard to tell. In my area it was the MD, in other areas it was the SNES. I think they were pretty equal, but the MD may have sold more thanks to two Swedish hockey games that were extremely popular.Just checking. If SNES were more popular, it is possible that MD games were discounted relative to them to help get more sales.

I can confirm that Super Nintendo and Genesis carts were roughly the same price in the United States, with certain Genesis carts being more expensive (such as Phantasy Star IV and Virtua Racing).

*******************

So, in keeping with the OP, can anyone name more SNES games that exhibited "speed" . . ? I put speed in quotes because it is a quality that can be exhibited in several ways, from scrolling the screen, moving sprites, handling more graphically intense visuals, etc.

And this "speed" doesn't have to be "as good" as that of the Genesis, just decent enough. Like I said, the origin of this question is that while in current times I hear how the Super Nintendo was "too slow," I don't remember this alleged slowness among the games I played.

Outside of the launch era games that had slowdown due to programmer's unfamiliarity with the system, I don't remember SNES games being plagued by slowdown any more than Genesis games were. Even the poster child of "blast processing," Sonic the Hedgehog, exhibited slow down when there were too many sprites on screen, such as when he was hit and ejected his rings.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

I have a feeling this conversation will never end.
After 15 years of the same old arguments, you'r beginning to get that feeling, eh?


...word is bondage...

[Ed Oscuro]

The exact phrase he used was "couldn't be done on SNES". If a game needed additional hardware in the cartridge, it couldn't be done on SNES. The SNES hardware didn't do DOOM.

Genesis could do expansion chips the same as SNES could.
That's not the point. The Genesis, expanded or not, could not have done DOOM with as many colors as the SNES did.

The end.

Also, I disagree with your narrow definition of the first statement. Nowhere in the OP's posts (as far as I could see) did he say "moving at super speed...without additional hardware in the chips." All you're doing is plugging in a cartridge, so your argument that somehow it's breaking the 'purity' of the argument fails to impress.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

That's not the point. The Genesis, expanded or not, could not have done DOOM with as many colors as the SNES did.

The end.
Of course it could have. Why would you think it couldn't? Haven't you ever heard of the 32X? That's essentially a very complex and expensive cartridge expansion. And coincidentally enough, there is in fact a version of DOOM for the 32X.


...word is bondage...

[Rob2600]

So, in keeping with the OP, can anyone name more SNES games that exhibited "speed" . . ? I put speed in quotes because it is a quality that can be exhibited in several ways, from scrolling the screen, moving sprites, handling more graphically intense visuals, etc.

Donkey Kong Country (blasting through a series of barrels is very fast), Street Fighter II Turbo, and I still say F-Zero. The first few levels may seem boring, sparse, and tame by today's standards, but later on in the game, the races and courses get much more intense.


And this "speed" doesn't have to be "as good" as that of the Genesis, just decent enough. Like I said, the origin of this question is that while in current times I hear how the Super Nintendo was "too slow," I don't remember this alleged slowness among the games I played.

As several people have pointed out, developers practically eliminated slowdown in SNES games a year or two after it was released, which was great. Was every PlayStation 2 or Xbox 360 launch title a brilliant programming masterpiece? No.

Even with all of the power and advancements in technology, games still get choppy today. Do all Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3 games run at a constant 60 frames per second? Again, no. Sometimes they slow down.

Anyway, my friends and I grew up with the Atari 2600, the NES, the Genesis, and horrible Apple II computer games, so to us, flicker and/or slowdown wasn't really a big deal. If some games suffered from those problems, we didn't care and kept on playing. Of course, it was nicer without those problems, but it was never a deal-breaker for us. It was just a normal part of gaming back then.

[digitalpress]

Just catching up with this thread, it feels like 1992 all over again.

Next thread: Are you proud that you can spew system stats, sales figures, and analogies clearly subjective to the system you want to "win" in a discussion (ie Are you proud that you're a fanboy)?

Please, don't let me stop you. It's most entertaining watching this all over again, like a repeat of a great Seinfeld episode.

[badinsults]

Just catching up with this thread, it feels like 1992 all over again.

Next thread: Are you proud that you can spew system stats, sales figures, and analogies clearly subjective to the system you want to "win" in a discussion (ie Are you proud that you're a fanboy)?

Please, don't let me stop you. It's most entertaining watching this all over again, like a repeat of a great Seinfeld episode.


Way to ruin the vibe of what is possibly the best classic gaming thread this forum has seen in years. If you can't accept a thread on the original fanboy argument, I find it to be quite sad. The SNES vs Genesis argument is still has a very special place in my heart, and I think that it is very bizarre that you would criticize it.

[Ed Oscuro]

Of course it could have. Why would you think it couldn't? Haven't you ever heard of the 32X? That's essentially a very complex and expensive cartridge expansion. And coincidentally enough, there is in fact a version of DOOM for the 32X.
You don't say? Have you taken a look at it lately?

I'm not going to rag on the small screen or music - if the 32x had been more powerful there wouldn't have been a reason for that. Half the levels were out because they needed to hit a Christmas release deadline, and again that's not the fault of the hardware.

But have you looked at the game lately?

I'm not sure DOOM is the best example for these reasons: Maybe more time with the game would have allowed them to sort out the palette more...regardless, the game is looking less like the PC version than the SNES version does.

My point in all this rubbish is that it helps to design a game around the limitations of the system it's going onto. The Genesis did some amazing looking titles with 3D style effects without addon hardware; Batman & Robin comes to mind. When I say "can't do DOOM with as many colors," I'm just pointing out one thing that's really unrelated to gameplay - heck, if the tradeoff could have been a wider color palette vs. more frames per second (and hopefully with a well-enough adjusted palette), that would've been a fine tradeoff.

Of course, neither system ends up looking brilliant in the ultimate comparison with the original system - the PC - as far as this single game is concerned, that is (and Comix Zone as well, released a bit later).

They certainly did alright as far as actual games designed with the systems in mind - and although I have tons of PC games from that time period, I end up playing console games more.

Anyhow, I think Joe's right; my little academic digression here is apparently touching some nerves that don't need to be. I honestly don't think any of the systems (Genny, SNES, PC-E, PC, you name it) is better than another, just different - so I'd like to avoid the label of being a SNES apologist or Genesis basher because I decided to narrow in on one game instead of talk about general patterns - which, to the best of my knowledge, really don't exist; as I already have a PC the Genesis actually becomes my FPS system of choice due to Zero Tolerance and some other titles.


If you can't accept a thread on the original fanboy argument,
Activision rulez, Atari drulez ?

[neuropolitique]

Way to ruin the vibe of what is possibly the best classic gaming thread this forum has seen in years. If you can't accept a thread on the original fanboy argument, I find it to be quite sad. The SNES vs Genesis argument is still has a very special place in my heart, and I think that it is very bizarre that you would criticize it.

cry cry

[Zebbe]

Just checking. If SNES were more popular, it is possible that MD games were discounted relative to them to help get more sales.

I can confirm that Super Nintendo and Genesis carts were roughly the same price in the United States, with certain Genesis carts being more expensive (such as Phantasy Star IV and Virtua Racing).

I think the Swedish retailers of Nintendo put the same price whatever cartridge size the games had. 4 MEGA POWER or 16 MEGA POWER, 599 SEK for both. Sega's retailers didn't do that though, but the games with most MEGA POWER were equally expensive (I think). Also, Nintendo got sued by EU for putting too high prices in this region compared to other regions. That may have something to do with it.

[j_factor]

Ok then, Genesis wins.


Is that what you’re looking to hear?

Why are you getting so confrontational all of a sudden? Apparently you haven't actually read my posts. Let me repeat myself.


my point isn't "zomg Genesis beats SNES in every way", but merely that the two systems each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Is that so hard to understand? But apparently to you, only the SNES's advantages count.

And I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. Everybody knows that Genesis has a superior processor. Masato Maekawa of Treasure (and previously Konami) said in an interview:


I think the Mega Drive was easy to make action games for, when compared to other hardware. The CPU is an MC68000. It's good at multiplication which played a big role in those multi-jointed bosses. Perhaps it's because we looked at Mega Drive development after Super Famicom, but in terms of processing, we felt it was superior.

I guess Maekawa-san is also a Sega fanboy. :roll:


That's not the point. The Genesis, expanded or not, could not have done DOOM with as many colors as the SNES did.

The end.

Yes, we all know that Genesis had a weak color palette. Then again, Doom SNES still sucked. Can you imagine if they'd attempted it without the powerful SuperFX2 chip? It would've been a slide show. Duke on Mega Drive is comparatively smooth, even if it ain't pretty in stills. Goes back to my original point, advantages and disadvantages.


Also, I disagree with your narrow definition of the first statement. Nowhere in the OP's posts (as far as I could see) did he say "moving at super speed...without additional hardware in the chips." All you're doing is plugging in a cartridge, so your argument that somehow it's breaking the 'purity' of the argument fails to impress.

I wasn't talking about the OP. This thread had -- gasp! -- strayed off topic. I never said anything about 'purity', only that talking about chipped games is irrelevant to hardware comparisons, as it's not the same hardware.

[Rob2600]

Masato Maekawa of Treasure (and previously Konami) said in an interview: "I think the Mega Drive was easy to make action games for, when compared to other hardware. The CPU is an MC68000. It's good at multiplication which played a big role in those multi-jointed bosses. Perhaps it's because we looked at Mega Drive development after Super Famicom, but in terms of processing, we felt it was superior."

Thanks for pointing that out. I believe him, but just to play the devil's advocate...I read an interview with David Perry of Shiny Entertainment in a video game magazine (Next Generation, I believe) around late 1998 in which he stated that the texturing work in Nintendo 64 games was garbage compared to the texturing work being done in PlayStation games. He claimed the only Nintendo 64 game with good texturing work was Rayman 2 and that everything else was a blurry mess.

David Perry works in the video game industry and helps create games, but that doesn't mean he was right. In fact, he was completely wrong. Other Nintendo 64 games, like Banjo-Kazooie, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Top Gear Overdrive, Turok 2: Seeds of Evil, etc., featured great texture work and looked much better than PlayStation games.

I'm not saying Masato Maekawa was wrong, but I'm just pointing out that we shouldn't automatically believe everyone in the video game industry. Sometimes what they say is great, but sometimes what they say is dead wrong.

[Gentlegamer]

Can anyone name a cart game for any console that didn't use chips?

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Can anyone name a cart game for any console that didn't use chips?
Magnavox Odyssey!

What do I win?


...word is bondage...

[suppafly]

Oh, so your basing your opinion of game costs on how they sold overseas. If SNES titles were more costly across the board what does that have to do with chipped games?

Zippo…


Here in the US, these games had no extra costs involved. End of story. If your country has some other deal that's their own issue and I strongly doubt that it had anything to with the chips contained in the games.







I’ll give you the same satisfaction I gave out earlier…

The Genesis was truly the better system, you (and all other Sega Fanboys) win. Now go hug your console, tell it "We've won buddy...good going!!!" and have a nice day.

Its common knowledge that the FX chips did increase the price of 3rd party game, while Nintendo, being a goliath, didnt charge a penny more for games with the chip (they had the money to take the price of the chip)

[Gentlegamer]

Magnavox Odyssey!The original Odyssey was not a cart system. All of the games were "built in" to the console itself.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

The original Odyssey was not a cart system. All of the games were "built in" to the console itself.
Yeah, that's why the carts don't have any chips on them, you have to insert cartridges in order to select among the built in games, though.


...word is bondage...