Why was Neo Geo slow-down okay?

[DeputyMoniker]

I understand that slow-down is just a part of the Neo Geo experience but I'm wondering why games like Shock Troopers 2 got approval for release. Why did the developer release it that way? I'd have expected the developer would have considered it a priority to prevent slow-down. "We're going to put so much action on the screen that the action turns into molasses." I don't get that. Whatever extreme amount of action they were trying to get is ruined by the slow-down. There would be more action if they toned it down a little.

[BHvrd]

Dissing the good ole' Neo Geo?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/pigeons3E/blasphemy.jpg

[Vectorman0]

I used to own that game and enjoyed it quite a bit, I don't remember noticing the slowdown, so I guess if it is really there than it didn't bother me at all. It not bothering me probably explains how it got released; it didn't bother many other people either. I wouldn't have sold it if I hadn't had so much money tied up in it, I definitely want to get it again someday.

[otaku]

shock troopers is/was incredible! Sure slowdown sucks but then again in a cool way it tells you damn alot is going on! I guess. All I know is it didn't stop me from liking shock troopers!

[DeputyMoniker]

I didn't say I don't like Shock Troopers.

I can tell you that Shocktroopers 2nd Squad & Samurai Shodown 2 ARE a lot of fun! I highly reccomend both of them!
There's my disclaimer.
Now back to the slow-down. It gets really bad in 2 player and if you didn't notice it then you're either on barbiturates or you need counseling. You can't not notice it.

it didn't bother many other people either.
Why did you bother typing that?

[Gentlegamer]

You mean the mighty 68000 processor was subject to slowdown? *gasp*

[DeputyMoniker]

What the fuck is wrong with discussing this? I hate it when this happens.

[boatofcar]

Man, don't start a negative thread about Neo Geo. Everybody knows that system is just like Mary Poppins, Practically Perfect in Every Way.


http://www.blogwaybaby.com/Mary%20Poppins.jpg

[Thrillo]

To tell the truth, I actually like slowdown on 2D games. Not only does it make the game easier when it gets too hard, but it also makes me feel good to be playing a game that's so awesome that the system can barely handle it. It feels like speeding excessively...
I also feel the same way about sound chips being overworked (play SNES Smash TV to see what I mean) and sprite flicker (ie. countless NES games)...those "problems" are pleasing features to me.

[smokehouse]

I think it was bad programming (like stated above) quite like the SNES thing. Look at Metal Slug 2 and X. Both the same game (actually, X is more complex graphics wise) and 2 has some serious slowdown. A little tweak here and the and POOF! No slowdown in MSX.

BTW…I won’t bash you for stating a bad thing about the Neo. Although one of my favorite systems, I realize no system is perfect.

[Vectorman0]

Why did you bother typing that?

I forgot a "probably" and maybe a couple other words in there. I guess that's what I get when I try to add something I forgot to a post at 2AM.

There's nothing wrong with discussing it, I think you have a legitimate point/good question. Here's my answer I attempted to make: I still found it to be a great game. Assuming some others behind the game felt that way too, it would be a good explanation for how it got approval for release.

[roushimsx]

Personally, I find that the rampant slowdown in various Neo Geo titles makes them completely unplayable for me. It's one thing if a game is designed to have slowdown (see any number of shmups), but when it's a result of piss poor design then it irks the hell out of me.

I'm also not a fan of seizure inducing sprite flicker. Thankfully emulation can generally clean up both flicker and slowdown for most systems.

[kaedesdisciple]

I think it was bad programming (like stated above) quite like the SNES thing. Look at Metal Slug 2 and X. Both the same game (actually, X is more complex graphics wise) and 2 has some serious slowdown. A little tweak here and the and POOF! No slowdown in MSX.

BTW…I won’t bash you for stating a bad thing about the Neo. Although one of my favorite systems, I realize no system is perfect.

You hit directly on the point I was going to raise. MS2 is still one of my favorites, but yes it is plagued with copious amounts of slowdown. I still prefer it over X, but that's just personal preference. Anyway, I agree no system is perfect, not even the mighty Neo, and it's one of my favorite systems.

As far as Shock Troopers 2, I didn't like it at all. I thought the original was a far better game in every respect. Made me wonder why they called it a sequel, it had nothing to do with the first one other than the genre and POV. The fact that it had such horrible slowdown was just the nail in the coffin for me.

In my opinion, it all depends on the player. For someone like me, slowdown is not exactly a dealbreaker, I'll play it through at least once. If I find the slowdown really kills the experience for me, then I'll dump it.

[kazuo]

I think it was bad programming (like stated above) quite like the SNES thing.

I think it's the fact that it's a game running on a 68k-based console that has way too much shit flying around on the screen at once.

Shock Troopers gets pretty hectic. It's been awhile since I played it, but I remember it getting pretty gnarly, so the slowdown wouldn't shock me one bit.

It comes with the territory.

[mailman187666]

at certain parts, I kind of like the slowdown. You know how if you beat a boss or something in say Metal Slug 2? and the dude starts blowing up and you get all sorts of metal chunks and explosions? I think slowdown gives it that victorious kinda slowmotion effect. Sometimes you see it in movies with explosions and stuff.

[XianXi]

It was defenitely not a RAM issue, it was purely a processor speed issue. You can always OC your Neo to overcome the slowdown. I think stock is 10mhz and between 12-14mhz is when it runs really smooth.

[FlufflePuff]

To answer the original question I would pose one of my own, "was slowdown as big a deal back then as it would be now?" I can't recall the last time a current gen system I was playing on had slowdown, but I also don't remember there being slowdown on older systems. This is not to say there wasn't any, but were our standards different? There have been many times I've gone back to play SNES games and had slowdown that bugged the crap out of me. Yet I never remember them being a problem when I first played them years ago. I think the answer is that our standards have changed as to what is acceptable.

[DeputyMoniker]

To answer the original question I would pose one of my own, "was slowdown as big a deal back then as it would be now?" I can't recall the last time a current gen system I was playing on had slowdown, but I also don't remember there being slowdown on older systems. This is not to say there wasn't any, but were our standards different? There have been many times I've gone back to play SNES games and had slowdown that bugged the crap out of me. Yet I never remember them being a problem when I first played them years ago. I think the answer is that our standards have changed as to what is acceptable.

True but speaking for myself, I didn't mind slow-down back then because I didn't know what it was. I didn't know why it was happening.


I think it's the fact that it's a game running on a 68k-based console that has way too much shit flying around on the screen at once.

Exactly my point. Way too much shit flying around at once. That isn't a processor problem. It's a programming problem. That is unless processors are programming the games. :P


I still found it to be a great game. Assuming some others behind the game felt that way too, it would be a good explanation for how it got approval for release.

I think it's a great game too. I just think it's strange that so many games got to the point of "good enough" and poof...it's on the shelf. It's hard to say that the Neo suffered from poor quality control, I mean the artwork, action, controls...it offers some of the best gaming experiences available. And I'm not just saying that, if I want to get down on some bad ass gaming, the Neo always find itself hooked up again. That slow-down though, man. It isn't necessary. I just don't think there is any reason for it to have made it into the release. Someone should have said "Great job, guys! Fantastic! Now, do something about the slow-down and we're done."

[mercatfat]

slow-down

The term you're looking for is "bullet time."

[Kitsune Sniper]

Some of us were already used to slowdowns in one way or another. Especially those of us who grew up with the NES. ;)

[DeputyMoniker]

The term you're looking for is "bullet time."

Ahh. Well, there you go. I hadn't realized it was a feature. XD

[XianXi]

Exactly my point. Way too much shit flying around at once. That isn't a processor problem. It's a programming problem. That is unless processors are programming the games. :P


It was a programming error but if they did have a slightly faster processor then the slow down wouldn't be present or as noticable. Stock was actually 12mhz but 14mhz would have been better for the slowdown.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

It was a programming error but if they did have a slightly faster processor then the slow down wouldn't be present or as noticable. Stock was actually 12mhz but 14mhz would have been better for the slowdown.
If the Neo Geo had had a 14MHz CPU stock, the developers would have thrown that much more stuff into the games and then it would have needed a 16MHz CPU to handle it all without slowdown. And so on.

Anyway, I haven't actually played Shock Troopers 2, but I've played plenty of games with slowdown and I think that at a certain point in the early to mid '90s--especially in the arcades--slowdown did sort of become a feature. Or at least it was a choice that the developers made, that they were going to push the hardware to this point. I'm not sure it was all down to lazy developing. They could just as easily have lightened up the sprite load and gotten rid of the slowdown, but they didn't. Fewer sprites running at full speed wouldn't have been any easier for the player than too many sprites with slowdown, either, so difficulty isn't the reason. I think it was a development decision either because slowdown was actually something they wanted in the game (possible, but I'm not sure) or just because too much stuiff going on onscreen was something they wanted. And too much stuff going on onscreen when there's no slowdown isn't really very playable most of the time, so slowdown sort of served a purpose.

I never mind slowdown anyway. I rarely even notice it, as some other have said. Flicker, on the other hand, I can't stand and it has always bothered me ever since I was a little kid. I'm also usually a bit bothered by framiness in 3D games. Somehow slowdown doesn't seem as bad as either of those, though. Not sure why.


...word is bondage...

[Barbarianoutkast85]

To tell the truth, I actually like slowdown on 2D games. Not only does it make the game easier when it gets too hard, but it also makes me feel good to be playing a game that's so awesome that the system can barely handle it. It feels like speeding excessively...
I also feel the same way about sound chips being overworked (play SNES Smash TV to see what I mean) and sprite flicker (ie. countless NES games)...those "problems" are pleasing features to me.


shock troopers is/was incredible! Sure slowdown sucks but then again in a cool way it tells you damn alot is going on! I guess. All I know is it didn't stop me from liking shock troopers!

What in the blue-hell is wrong with you guys? Slow down good? WOW THIS GAME IS SO AWESOME BECAUSE THE SLOW DOWN!

[cyberfluxor]

What in the blue-hell is wrong with you guys? Slow down good? WOW THIS GAME IS SO AWESOME BECAUSE THE SLOW DOWN!

Ever played Steel Empire on the Genesis?

[DeputyMoniker]

I think I'm beginning to wrap my head around this. Take Tomb Raider as an example. There were plenty of 3D camera bugs in the game but that didn't stop them from releasing it. it also didn't stop it from being one of the most impressive games of its generation. I keep thinking about how SNK or whoever, should have removed content to prevent bugs. Had they removed content from Tomb Raider then I don't know what we would have gotten but I doubt it would have been Tomb Raider. It just seems so simple a problem to fix though. It isn't like the slow-down scenes made any Neo Geo game. It was the game as a whole & the game would have been better without the slow-down. I don't think my brain is capable of rationalizing this.

[Bojay1997]

I think I'm beginning to wrap my head around this. Take Tomb Raider as an example. There were plenty of 3D camera bugs in the game but that didn't stop them from releasing it. it also didn't stop it from being one of the most impressive games of its generation. I keep thinking about how SNK or whoever, should have removed content to prevent bugs. Had they removed content from Tomb Raider then I don't know what we would have gotten but I doubt it would have been Tomb Raider. It just seems so simple a problem to fix though. It isn't like the slow-down scenes made any Neo Geo game. It was the game as a whole & the game would have been better without the slow-down. I don't think my brain is capable of rationalizing this.

But you are looking back at games that are now 10-15 years old through the lens of modern hardware that so far has not been maxed out by programmers. You have to remember that in the 90s, programmers didn't have the luxury of cheap RAM, incredibly fast processors and hard drive storage for arcade games. Go back and play popular sprite based games from the period 1988-1996 or so and I guarantee almost every one of them has some slowdown when a lot of action occurs on screen. It was a conscious choice to give gamers lots of action and eye candy even if it meant that the game slowed down for a little bit. Personally, I like the slow down because it keeps you from being too confused about who is attacking you. I almost think of it as a Matrix or Max Payne like feature rather than a problem. I also remember considering it an artistic choice back when the games were new and it never really bothered me.

[DeputyMoniker]

They didn't have the capability to limit onscreen enemies & fire?

[klausien]

It was a conscious choice to give gamers lots of action and eye candy even if it meant that the game slowed down for a little bit....
...I also remember considering it an artistic choice back when the games were new and it never really bothered me.

That hits the nail on the head for me. I have always considered slowdown in 2D games to be a minor thing when allowed with great care and deliberation. It isn't all that bad, even in games that have 3D graphics with 2D gameplay (such as R-Type Final). It's really a matter of taste, though I do concede that it can be a bit irritating when excessive (SNES Super R-Type is a perfect example).

I will say however that framerate drops in 3D games, especially those in the racing and FPS genres, totally kill realism. The 4th wall is breached in the worst way.

[ccovell]

EGM ripped into Last Resort and gave it low marks specifically because of slowdown. So yes, it wasn't tolerated back in the day either. Thankfully the slowdown comes as a blessing in that game when you have to navigate around 60 bullets on-screen.

But the slowdown in Metal Slug 2 really was a bit disappointing. MSX is quite a bit more playable because of the smoother gameplay.

[Bojay1997]

They didn't have the capability to limit onscreen enemies & fire?

Of course they did, but part of the gimmick with many of the early SNK games was to overwhelm you with so much on-screen action that you walked away feeling like you had been involved in something very, very intense. It's kind of like an action movie that has so much gun play that you leave the theater feeling physically drained.

Obviously, that gimmick is not for everyone and as another poster pointed out, several SNK games were poorly reviewed because of it. In fact, I believe Metal Slug X was primarily a reworking of Metal Slug 2 because many felt that it suffered from too much slowdown. So, the levels had the sprite counts reduced and the hardware became less taxed and you had a different feeling game.

[Iron Draggon]

well in many cases it was done purely for shock value... there was a certain mystique to games that had so much happening onscreen at once that they literally slowed the hardware down to a crawl... most hardcore gamers of the era would see something like that in a game and go "WOW! even the system itself can barely handle it! this game ROCKS!" it was a sign that a game was challenging... so it was generally seen as a good thing, except when it was very evident in a console port and not very evident in the arcade version...

personally, I've always appreciated it for acting as a sort of assistant... too much happening at once to have much of a chance of survival without it, so it kicks in when necessary to help you fully appreciate the direness of your situation... and of course the advice in the manual was always to shoot a few of the many enemies onscreen when this happens, to restore speed...

so just think of it as a temporary slow-mo button that you can control, and maybe it won't bother you so much... because that's basically what it is... and yes it does suspend the suspension of disbelief at times, but when you think of it as a sort of Matrix-style closeup of the action, it's not so bad...

oh and BTW, I think it all began with Pac-Man on the 2600 and its appalling sprite flicker issues... Atari got away with that because it was a very clever workaround to a very real hardware limitation, and the industry soon realized that they could pass off anything that taxed the hardware as a feature...

[Zing]

I can't recall the last time a current gen system I was playing on had slowdown, but I also don't remember there being slowdown on older systems.
Probably since every system since the PlayStation simply drops frames when unable to render at full speed.

I do remember slowdown on the N64.

[XYXZYZ]

Somewhat off-topic, I'd just like to mention Double Dragon. That game is damn near unplayable, the slowdown is so bad.
http://www.mameworld.net/maws/img/shots/snap/ddragon.png
Marion-"Billy, save me!"
Billy Lee- "I can't MOOOOOVE!"

[Zing]

I remember questions on message boards: "Why does Double Dragon play so slow in MAME?"

[Tommy]

When I am playing Blazing Star or something of this nature, it kinda helps me because I know where I can put my ship and still getaway without getting hit. It really doesn't bother me but that's just me.

[jwm2]

Theres only slow down in certain games, to me its hardly noticable in the games i play most. The neo geo was a classic and had some great games, part of the fun was all the onscreen action, and at the time in order to have that it meant putting up with some minor slowdown. Just think of it as slomo, heh.

[vgc]

Shock Troopers 1 is much Better than Shock Troopers 2. As for slow down Many of the Early SNES Games were horrid especially shooters. Early Sega Genesis Shooters were much better since the processor was alot faster. Mike : )

[blue lander]

I loved Shock Troopers 1, so when I saw that Shock Troopers 2 sells for about half as much, I figured I'd give it a try. It couldn't be too different, right? Well, the slowdown alone virtually kills the game for me. I think the original is superior in every way.

[FantasiaWHT]

I can't recall the last time a current gen system I was playing on had slowdown,

Have you played Odin Sphere yet? Hoo boy....

I remember slowdown from older games, and it always used to really big me, so I suppose my standards didn't change much.

[rbudrick]

If you'd kill more enemies faster, you wouldn't have the slowdown! Don't be mad because you don't dish out enough pwnage. :D lolz

-Rob

[DeputyMoniker]

If you'd kill more enemies faster, you wouldn't have the slowdown! Don't be mad because you don't dish out enough pwnage. :D lolz

-Rob

Lol. Good call, man. I guess the Neo just can't handle my excessive sucking.

[blue lander]

That must be it... If you suck so much that the screen fills with enemies, the Neo Geo tries to lend you a hand by slowing things down a bit so you can catch up. How thoughtful!

[DeputyMoniker]

That must be it... If you suck so much that the screen fills with enemies, the Neo Geo tries to lend you a hand by slowing things down a bit so you can catch up. How thoughtful!

Yet another feature I overlooked.

[Poofta!]

at certain parts, I kind of like the slowdown. You know how if you beat a boss or something in say Metal Slug 2? and the dude starts blowing up and you get all sorts of metal chunks and explosions? I think slowdown gives it that victorious kinda slowmotion effect. Sometimes you see it in movies with explosions and stuff.

this reminds me of successfully completing a game of solitaire on my old 386 with windows 3.11, when you get that nice jumping cascade of cards, on that PC that scene took almost 5 minutes they were so slow. i remember seeing it on later machines and the whole thing took probably 12 seconds.

i liked the slow cards more =(

[Gentlegamer]

this reminds me of successfully completing a game of solitaire on my old 386 with windows 3.11, when you get that nice jumping cascade of cards, on that PC that scene took almost 5 minutes they were so slow. i remember seeing it on later machines and the whole thing took probably 12 seconds.

i liked the slow cards more =(Oog like Legend of Sol-Tar.

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/780/780474/aqua-teen-hunger-force-20070413005543945.jpg

[jwm2]

I loved Shock Troopers 1, so when I saw that Shock Troopers 2 sells for about half as much, I figured I'd give it a try. It couldn't be too different, right? Well, the slowdown alone virtually kills the game for me. I think the original is superior in every way.

ST1 is so much better than the second one, they feel like 2 totally different games. In st1 you can chose one of 3 routes, in the second you don't have that choice.

[idrougge]

EGM ripped into Last Resort and gave it low marks specifically because of slowdown. So yes, it wasn't tolerated back in the day either. Thankfully the slowdown comes as a blessing in that game when you have to navigate around 60 bullets on-screen.

R-Type on Master System was also widely criticised for slowdown, but at the same time everyone agreed that it was a formidable port.

In games like the Aleste series I don't care about slowdown since it occurs in rythm with the game, and gives you just enough time to take in the screen when it is overpopulated.

[lspear76]

I had a Neo Geo back in '91 and about 15 games. I loved the System, and one summer day LAST RESORT came in the mail from Die Hard Game Club. I loved the game, but the slowdown in Level 2 (water) was pretty bad and disappointed me and my friends greatly.

[cyberfluxor]

I had a Neo Geo back in '91 and about 15 games. I loved the System, and one summer day LAST RESORT came in the mail from Die Hard Game Club. I loved the game, but the slowdown in Level 2 (water) was pretty bad and disappointed me and my friends greatly.
So the backdrop lagged the level? I'm not familiar with the Last Resort gameplay so I'll need to be enlightened on it. There are plenty of fighters on the Neo-Geo I've played that look brilliant with wonderful background animation so it sounds like either an overlooked lag issue or they thought it'd be cool or some reason and didn't care how it'd play.

I haven't heard too many talk about other games that slowdown from processing rather than graphics, like a lot of strategies. There are some horrible board games, turn-based war and real time strats. There are some genres of games that'll tend to create lag issues during gameplay or big load times, just depends on the programmers and how sophisticated they want to make it.

[roushimsx]

I haven't heard too many talk about other games that slowdown from processing rather than graphics, like a lot of strategies. There are some horrible board games, turn-based war and real time strats. There are some genres of games that'll tend to create lag issues during gameplay or big load times, just depends on the programmers and how sophisticated they want to make it.

The slow speed of Rebelstar Tactical Command really ruined the game on the GBA. When played through emulation with a key bound to 'fast forward' to speed through the enemy turns then it became far, far more playable and enjoyable.

[Julio III]

this reminds me of successfully completing a game of solitaire on my old 386 with windows 3.11, when you get that nice jumping cascade of cards, on that PC that scene took almost 5 minutes they were so slow. i remember seeing it on later machines and the whole thing took probably 12 seconds.

i liked the slow cards more =(


Yes! I remember the first time i'd completed solitaire back on my 386SX 16Mhz. It was like wow, you'd achieved something, congratulations. On a newer computer it was like, is that it?



And you do still get the problem nowadays. Well, on Outrun2006 on the PS2, when there are far too many cars, you get slowdown (or frame dropping or whatever) but you know it is because the game is pushing the poor PS2 far too hard.