Standard Def TVs Best For Classic Gaming

[Cambot]

I think it's generally agreed upon that standard definition sets are best for classic gaming. I can officially agree now that I got our old (2 year-old) Sony 27-inch SD CRT TV down from our garage apartment where relatives had been staying and using the set for the past 6 months.

I recently bought a Sony XBR HDTV at about the time I took the 27-inch SDTV up there to the apartment while we had relatives staying with us from Europe. Playing games for systems such as SNES, Genesis, NES (pretty much any system with anything other than a Component/VGA/HDMI connection) on the HDTV was fine and dandy, but there was just something 'off' about the way it looked. Maybe the LCD screen showed too many of the flaws. Also, even with "Game Mode" turned on, which bumps resolultion down to 480i (I think), there was very, very slight lag. Better than most HDTVs, but with twitchy games such as Mario where timing is everything, I still suspected slight lag. Even classic games downloaded on the Virtual Console, though they look brilliant and crisp on the Wii with component cables, seem to play slightly more smoothly control-wise on their native systems connected to a SD television.

What are your opnions. Anyone else have specific classic gaming preferences?

[otaku]

only system I've played on an HDTV (57inch crt) was my xbox 360 (and briefly xbox) I however prefer and use a 27inch sony crt just like you its about the same age to. Its a heavy beast but I refuse to get rid of it for an lcd (and I don't want to spend more money I don't have to this one set me back 400 bucks)

Can't go wrong with a crt for gaming. Now pc gaming the LCD's seem fine to me small for your desk and man can they be pretty I have a 20in dell for that and its quite nice

[cyberfluxor]

I place PC gaming in a different area than consoles when it comes to display. A computer has so many various elements that can either enhance or hender your display, like having the latest and correct drivers. A console has fixed hardware and most limited to no updating available for newer screens.
Don't know, there's just so much more to computers than consoles that I just don't like comparing the two.

[IronBuddha]

I have all my classic systems hooked up to a 80's something 25in RCA floor model, it even has this new state of the art feature called "the remote control" (it's the size of a brick LOL)

To me it's more about nostalgia, a new tv will give it a brighter crisper look but playing it on that old floor model reminds me back when the games were new and playing them in the basement, I have more joy playing them like that then on a new tv. Just my opinion.

[otaku]

yeah the sony crt I have was only purchased because I couldn't find a decent old tv. I had two old woody tvs (real wood!) one a 27inch floor model that was 15 years old and the other a 20 inch that was just as old

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

I recently acquired a really nice professional video monitor, a 27" NEC Multisync 4PG. This is pretty much the perfect TV for gaming, in my opinion. In addition to composite and s-video it can do RGB and even VGA (and it can do all sorts of syncing methods like Sync-on-Green, which is what the Xbox outputs). It even has a switch for PAL or NTSC. The video quality is excellent, too. I picked it up for $50 at a thrift store just a couple months ago.

I've been wanting a monitor like this for about 10 years now and I'm so stoked to have this thing. It's even better than I had hoped really (especially since it can do VGA). I just missed buying a similar one last spring at my school's surplus sale and I thought I'd never find another, but then I did. Anyone who's ever read about TVs like this in the RGB threads here or something like that and wished they could find one somewhere at an affordable price, now is the time to be looking since many businesses, schools and other institutions that use monitors like this are upgrading to some form of HD display instead and selling off their old ones or donating them to charities.


...word is bondage...

[Cambot]

The only system I have that I play ovr VGA is the Dreamcast - and for that I use the Sony XBR2 LCD HD set. Brilliant. Some games even output widescreen.

[grolt]

I have a 50" Sony XBR HDTV, but I'm going to agree with the majority that classic gaming is best on CRTs. While I generally like playing on CRTs more for the nostalgia than anything (I've got my SMS hooked up coaxial to a wood panelled 21", haha!) I've found too that it's a necessity in certain cases.

The best example I can provide are the 3-D games on the SMS. I thought it would be best to play those on a big, clean monitor to get the maximum effect. In practice, though, the opposite was true. Those games were not meant for such a big screen, and as a result the 3-D effect is totally lost on those games, because the ghosting images are too far apart when blown up that big, creating double vision instead of the illusion of depth. Throw 'em onto my 21" though, and the effect is amazing.

I've noticed the lag too, but it's not really a hindrance unless you are really looking for it. The 3-D games though, are unplayable!

[TheDomesticInstitution]

I've owned a 24inch Sony flat screen since 2000... it was a floor model that I paid about 500 bucks for... It has served me well- my only complaint is it doesn't have many A/V inputs... I'm getting ready to move, so after the move I'll unpack it and use it as a dedicated classic system TV... and hook up a video switcher to it... I've been itching to play Duck Hunt and can't right now as it's hooked up to a sony HD set. But as far as what's a great set... sony CRTs are awesome, if you can't ahold of a CRT RGB monitor- like someone mentioned above.

[Poofta!]

sony hdtvs -especially- the xbr series is notrious for having shitty non-progressive support. i have a sharp 27" 720p in one bedroom and it works great for snes and genesis as far as responsiveness goes.

im getting another sharp now, a 37" 1080p

[smokehouse]

I have a Sony KV32FS320 SD set that I have for my retro gaming and it does an amazing job.

http://www.abtelectronics.com/images/products/l_kv32fs320.jpg

It was one of the last “flagship” SD flat tube sets Sony made. I also run my Laserdisc player on it as well as it does an amazing job with composite video.

I’ve found that with most HD sets, they are truly “garbage in, garbage out” type of sets. Many look like garbage when it comes to older gaming systems.

Case-in-point, my 51” Hitachi ISF calibrated set that I use for movies and HD content makes most of my game consoles look like crap. The PS2/GameCube/Wii/Xbox over component aren’t bad but anything older than that looks like crap.

[LiquidPolicenaut]

I think I might be the odd one out. My Sony 32" Bravia HDTV plays my older systems pretty damn nicely (16 bit and earlier). Oddly enough, the PS2 and newer, if hooked up through anything other than component, look like utter ass.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

I can't say that my Sony HD (30 inch tube CRT) set makes non-interlaced signals look like shit either. I have 6 systems (only the XBOX is run with component) and as long as they're all run with A/V cables- then the picture looks awesome, notably better than my analog (because the lines of resolution are much finer on Sony's HD set vs. analog sets). These include: NES, SNES, Dreamcast, GC (through S-Video), XBOX, N64 (jury's still out on this one- I swear it looks blurrier on my HD set- but I'll try it on my analog just to be sure), and a Pioneer DVD Player (run with component, but it's an older non-interlaced player). The only source that doesn't look as good on my HD is anything run through the coaxial input, which includes my Genesis- the only system I don't have an AV cable for right now. The only reason I would hook some of these older systems up to an analog set is: for light gun support and an improved coax performance for the Genesis, if I can't get ahold of the elusive AV cable. Sorry for all the parenthesis.

[SkiDragon]

The real trick is finding a TV that will play both new and old games well. As far as I am concerned the main thing to look for is a set with low lag. I spent a long time testing HDTVs and found a few sets that were pretty good, but none good enough for me to buy.

I actually just realized something. The reason the NES Zapper and similar devices do not work on most HDTVs is because of the lag, or so I've heard. If so, Duck Hunt would make a good, objective, binary way to test lag on an HDTV.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

As far as I know, Zappers work on no current HDTVs. I haven't heard of a single person who has had success with this. I think it's just a little more technical than just "lag" as to why light guns for classic systems don't work with HDTVs. I do encourage someone to really research this though, because I would love to find an HDTV that works with light guns. One place I would try is avsforum.com... I'm sure someone there has really explained this well if you dig around.

[Zing]

Yes, the zapper explanation is "just" lag.

I game on my Sony 50" rear projection LCD HDTV with several systems no more recent than the PS2 with no discernable lag (even without game mode). Even timing-critical games like DDR and Guitar Hero are fine.

For a while, I tried to stick with my 27" Sony CRT, but the interlaced flickering refresh rate just kills my eyes now.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

No offense Zing, but unless I can be shown that "lag" is the cause of light guns being inoperable on HDTVs... I can't accept that answer. So I've been doing some digging on the internet, and haven't been able to find a reputible article that cites lag as a reason. And by my own experience, I have not detected any lag when playing my classic systems on my HDTV... the games to me don't play any differently. Which is why I'm searching for the real reason... And it also seems that the reason a light gun won't work on an HDTV CRT set vs. Plasma, LCD, DLP, etc. is completely different.

First article I've found...

http://www.cinemablend.com/technology/E3-2007-GunCon-3-And-Light-Guns-For-HDTV-5291.html

"The biggest problem Namco had to overcome was getting a light gun to work on HDTVs. It’s commonly known that the traditional light gun technology doesn’t work on anything but cathode ray tube televisions (and light bulbs if you were a worthless NES cheater). Old school light guns, like the NES Zapper, worked like this: you pull the trigger and the screen goes momentarily black at which point the Zapper begins detecting what is happening. Then the screen is flashed white to let the console know where the Zapper is pointed. If you remember back to your childhood this is why when playing Duck Hunt the screen flashed each time you pull the trigger. Basically a CRT TV draws the screen from left to right and top to bottom. As the pixels come back in order the light gun detects exactly where you were pointing to determine if you got the shot. Unfortunately this setup does not work with LCD or plasma screens, which draw the whole screen at once."


To me it sounds like the guns are not operable because the picture is displayed in a completely different way rather than due a delay in the image. So if I'm not mistaken, this isn't describing lag...
Now as to why CRT HDTV's don't work is a bit different, and as of yet I can't find a great answer other than "the signal is not interlaced" Again... if anyone has an article or link they could give me talking about lag... let me know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun

Here is wikipedias entry on how light guns work.

[SkiDragon]

Ok, the Zapper uses a more primitive method than newer light guns. The newer method looks almost completely incompatible with HDTVs.

The Zapper I think would work with a TV with low enough lag. Just because the TV has imperceptible lag to you does not mean it is low enough to make the Zapper work, because the screen blinks in just one frame. I kind of doubt any current HDTV has low enough lag to make this work.

[kazuo]

XRGB2+/3 to the monitor and RGB out from the console is the only way to go for classic systems IMO.

XRGB2+ and a good 21" CRT VGA monitor is truly of epic proportions.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=6987

[SkiDragon]

Yes, I wish it was easier to output/input RGB signals. But I have been intensively looking for a good stock TV that can play games well off of standard inputs. There is a line of Sharp LCD HDTVs that offer "Vyper Drive", which is just a way to reduce the lag. Unfortunately, when I tested it I was a little confused. I couldn't tell if I actually had the Vyper Drive enabled. Also, only certain inputs had this mode: one component and one composite, and I think one HDMI port. Unfortunately, no S-video, which is what the majority of my old systems are hooked up with. From what I saw though I think the lag was really low, even on the S-video input without the Vyper Drive. It still suffered from the odd upscaling artifacts that most/all HDTVs do, and it had no 120 Hz technology, so blurring was apparent in many cases.

[mario2butts]

XRGB2+/3 to the monitor and RGB out from the console is the only way to go for classic systems IMO.

XRGB2+ and a good 21" CRT VGA monitor is truly of epic proportions.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=6987

Agreed. I have an XRGB-3 and have never gone back. Looks phenomenal on both my 24" Sony FW900 monitor and Infocus 4805 DLP Projector throwing an 80" image. RGB from the console is best, but even S-Video looks ok (ie for N64 and non-VGA DC games). Composite looks like shite but if you use an external comb filter (like an AV Receiver) to upconvert it to S-Video and then connect to the XRGB the image looks pretty good. This is how I have my NES set up, and its certainly not emulator-crisp, but comparable to a very good SDTV.

[Zing]

Even the fastest tested rear projection HDTVs have around 20ms of display lag (flat panel TVs generally have at least twice this). This appears to be enough to render light guns unusable.

[jwm2]

You really can't go wrong with a sony vega sdtv for retro gaming, the only problems i've ever had were with my supergun, but a sync cleaner fixed it.

[GaijinPunch]

The real trick is finding a TV that will play both new and old games well.

Unless you have low standard for the old, these are very hard to find. You have to find a TV that does both 15khz and 31khz displays (I doubt much if anything on the consumer level does this, but I admit I haven't done much research).

I bought a Sony Wega last year for the AV-Multi (RGB) input and haven't looked back.

[Ikari Warrior]

Now as to why CRT HDTV's don't work is a bit different, and as of yet I can't find a great answer other than "the signal is not interlaced" Again... if anyone has an article or link they could give me talking about lag... let me know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun

Here is wikipedias entry on how light guns work.

Namco's Guncon 2 works on my Toshiba CRT HDTV. You plug the yellow a/v jack into the green component plug and it works fine. It eve recognizes the progressive scan and makes you shoot two spots to calibrate (center, corner) rather than just the center. But yes, it'll only work on a CRT set, not LCD, Projector, or Plasma.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Thanks for the extra info ikari... I'll look into it.

[Xexyz]

I'll tell you what, SDTV's are definitely the way to go for light gun gamers and Sega 3D glasses gamers. The faster refresh rate on HDTV's doesn't cope well with either type of peripheral.

[Kevincal]

You can't beat a 35 inch Sony Trinitron. ;)

[Cryomancer]

I recently acquired a really nice professional video monitor, a 27" NEC Multisync 4PG. This is pretty much the perfect TV for gaming, in my opinion. In addition to composite and s-video it can do RGB and even VGA (and it can do all sorts of syncing methods like Sync-on-Green, which is what the Xbox outputs). It even has a switch for PAL or NTSC. The video quality is excellent, too. I picked it up for $50 at a thrift store just a couple months ago.

I've been wanting a monitor like this for about 10 years now and I'm so stoked to have this thing. It's even better than I had hoped really (especially since it can do VGA). I just missed buying a similar one last spring at my school's surplus sale and I thought I'd never find another, but then I did. Anyone who's ever read about TVs like this in the RGB threads here or something like that and wished they could find one somewhere at an affordable price, now is the time to be looking since many businesses, schools and other institutions that use monitors like this are upgrading to some form of HD display instead and selling off their old ones or donating them to charities.


Any chance you could post a picture of what this looks like so i know what to keep an eye out for?

[Zing]

You can't beat a 35 inch Sony Trinitron. ;)
Yeah, you have no chance of beating that in a fight. It probably weighs 50 pounds more than you!

[Pantechnicon]

On a related note, Best Buy discontinues sale of analog televisions (http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/17/news/companies/bc.apfn.bestbuy.analogte.ap/index.htm?section=money_mostpopular).

[Kevincal]

Yeah, you have no chance of beating that in a fight. It probably weighs 50 pounds more than you!

Haha! ;) You aren't kidding...The thing is an absolute BEAST. It takes two strong men a great deal of effort to lift it up. It really does have an awesome picture though. I love it.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Any chance you could post a picture of what this looks like so i know what to keep an eye out for?
Well, I can't find a picture of the 4PG specifically, but there's a number of manufacturers that make monitors like this such as Sony (the PVM series is the most common), Panasonic (the one I almost bought a few months ago was from them) and Mitsubishi (Megaview monitors). These sorts of monitors are usually cube shaped rather than tapered at the back like a normal TV, this is so they can be stacked easily for multi-monitor displays. The main thing to look for, though, is just a ton of inputs on the back including dsub or serial connections and BNC connections and all sort of stuff, plus usually outputs for audio and video as well as inputs. There's also likely to be a lot of setting switches and dipswitch arrays back there. The backs of these monitors are totally complicated, but the fronts are usually really clean simple with no inputs and almost no controls at all, just a narrow black border around the screen itself, which is again because one of their main uses is for multi-monitor displays.

And they're likely to be incredibly heavy. The one I got weighs like 200 pounds. I could barely carry it up my flight of like five stairs into my house, but luckily it has built in handles.


...word is bondage...