360 And Halo 3 Push Past the Wii's Sales [Slashdot] [Archive]

DP ServBot

10-19-2007, 10:00 AM

GameDaily has the NPD numbers for September, and they're impressive if only because for the first time in months Nintendo isn't dominating the top of every list. Total sales across the industry hit $1.36 billion (a 74% bump over last year), mostly fueled by Halo 3 sales. The game (across all skus) sold some 3.3 million units, while Xbox 360 platforms hit about 528,000 units sold last month. Ironically, the Wii had it's second best month ever and the DS sold big numbers thanks to Phantom Hourglass. "Nintendo's Wii, despite not really having any significant new software releases, was close behind with 501K units sold. The DS handheld also did quite well, selling another 495.8K. Looking at Sony's platforms, the PS3 sold just 119.4K units, while the surging PSP sold 284.5K and the PS2 maintained healthy sales at 215K." The piece also offers up analysis from an NPD researcher, who feels Microsoft is likely to maintain some good momentum through the holidays.Read more of this story (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/19/1252252&from=rss) at Slashdot.
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Poofta!

10-19-2007, 06:15 PM

id say the wii surge is because of availability going up. i got to the local gamestop (3 in the mall...) every lunch break and they started having them in almost every day...

UniHamachi

10-19-2007, 06:52 PM

I thinks it's nuts that MS put out the biggest game of this year and next and the Wii, with only MP3 being the nearest marquee game (without anywhere near the anticipation nor promotion) was able to pull within 27K units sold. It's a good bump for them, but unless they keep this up (say, another 300K for Oct), maybe Reggie was right and most of the prople who wanted Halo3 already bought Halo3. I also wonder if they sold nearly every Wii they shipped and that the only reason MS ended on top was supply and not demand (it was the second highest number of Wii's sold in a month).

I'm curious as to how the Wii will do with SMG and the holidays coming up. I think the perception/reality of scarcity will mean that Nintendo will sell every Wii they ship.

Nebagram

10-19-2007, 06:55 PM

Yep to above poster. 360 has fired its big gun and only got its nose in front of the Wii- which has still got some serious ammunition in reserve. As with everything in retail, it'll be the Christmas sales that'll really tell the story.

diskoboy

10-20-2007, 04:12 AM

Good.

I'm about to sell my Wii.

I'm very disappointed with the system and the games I have played (including MP3), The VC games are overpriced, the controllers novelty wore off after about 2 weeks, Nintendo seems to be sticking to their kiddie mantra.... It just not worth the $250, and the hell I went through just to get it.

I'm pretty much done with Nintendo. The Wii was Nintendo's last straw, with me, and they've totally blown it. I probably won't buy ANY future Nintendo console.

Zap!

10-20-2007, 05:13 AM

spoon

10-20-2007, 05:44 AM

I heart Da PS3.

petewhitley

10-20-2007, 06:15 AM

Why were you disapointed with a game that got rated 9's everywhere (MP3)? And like them or not, motion controllers are here to stay. All the new systems (PS4, Xbox 720, next Nintendo) will include them.

Thank you Nostradamus. There's no evidence of that whatsoever, and the backlash against the gimmick is already in full-swing.

RyanMurf

10-20-2007, 10:19 AM

Thank you Nostradamus. There's no evidence of that whatsoever, and the backlash against the gimmick is already in full-swing.

Agreed I hate motion sensor controllers. They are always spazzing out and ruining the game. I think the exact opposite. I don't think any future gaming consoles will have motion sensor except for Nintendo and thats just because there NINTENDO.

Kroogah

10-20-2007, 10:36 AM

Super Mario Fan

10-20-2007, 10:41 AM

Agreed I hate motion sensor controllers. They are always spazzing out and ruining the game. I think the exact opposite. I don't think any future gaming consoles will have motion sensor except for Nintendo and thats just because there NINTENDO.

Well, judging by the sales of the Wii thus far, I wouldn't be suprised if other companies snuck it in next generation.

UniHamachi

10-20-2007, 10:53 AM

Well, judging by the sales of the Wii thus far, I wouldn't be suprised if other companies snuck it in next generation.
Well, Sony already did because they knew Nintendo was on to something. But the motion sensing itself takes a backseat to the IR pointer (lets be clear and separate the two technologies). I agree that motion sensing itself has not yet been successfully implemeted (waggle itself works spottily). But the pointer elevates MP3 and RE4, and while I didn't enjoy the game, the mechanic of using the pointer in SPM was very clever.

If someone could perfect waggle like Retro perfected IR pointing, then yes, all the next gen consoles will have this feature. I think IR or some other opinter technology will be implemented in all future consoles. If Halo had point and shoot, it would be godly.

swlovinist

10-20-2007, 11:58 AM

I think that the 360 and the Wii will capture a large market this holiday. As for the PS3....I see the 399 system doing better, but too little, too late. Ask me in a year how the PS3 is doing....

I anticipate the Wii outselling the 360 this holiday. I see the 360 moving more software units.

UniHamachi

10-20-2007, 12:59 PM

I anticipate the Wii outselling the 360 this holiday.
Assuming they can supply enough Wii's, I think that's a foregone conclusion.

Zap!

10-20-2007, 02:55 PM

Thank you Nostradamus. There's no evidence of that whatsoever, and the backlash against the gimmick is already in full-swing.

You don't have to be a fortune teller to know that Nintendo sets the standard for controllers. The 1985 NES was the first to use the control pad. Other systems all came with one. The SNES in 1991 was the first system to use L and R buttons on top. The next batch of systems (except for Jaguar), starting with 3DO, Saturn, and PS1, all had them. The 1996 N64 was the first home system to have an analog joystick with a seperate control pad (d-pad), and the first with a rumble feature. Guess what PS2, Dreamcast, and X-Box came with? See the patern? Bank on it, motion controllers are 100% here to stay and will be perfected next time around.

otaku

10-20-2007, 03:47 PM

I agree with white knight on the whole controller thing it seems pretty likely to me that we will see more motion stuff in the future from all game machines.

As for the sales nice to see MS finally pull ahead and it may last through christmas but from here what will they do?

Nintendo definetly needs to get some games out and start delivering enough hardware for christmas. Nice to see the PSP finally picking up in sales. Now the PS3 needs to follow suit

The Great Dane

10-20-2007, 09:26 PM

The thing with Nintendo not releasing a whole lot of really good games is partly because of the 3rd party developers not wanting to put much effort into the system. I am now wanting to buy either a PS3 or an Xbox 360 simply because there probably won't ever be any epic games such as Assasins Creed, Elder Scrolls 4, or Metal Gear Solid 4 on the Wii, and I'm not referring to the graphics side of the games, but the size of the mentioned games.

Instead, most are content on either releasing ports, or just making small "party" games, or just games that took very little effort to make. This problem is also due to Nintendo marketing the Wii as something that even your grandparents can easily play.

Now, obviously there are a few awesome games for the Wii that are awesome and not "family games." Such as Metroid Prime 3, Legend of Zelda:TP, and Super Mario Galaxy (next month). I just wish more developers would give us Wii owners some games with a grand adventure, deep storyline, and good graphics (the Wii can have good graphics).

Rob2600

10-20-2007, 09:37 PM

Nintendo seems to be sticking to their kiddie mantra.

Yes, games like The Godfather, Manhunt 2, Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3, Medal of Honor, Red Steel, Prince of Persia, and Scarface are way too kiddie.

Melf

10-20-2007, 10:04 PM

"Nintendo's Wii, despite not really having any significant new software releases...

That basically describes the last 11 months.

You don't have to be a fortune teller to know that Nintendo sets the standard for controllers. The 1985 NES was the first to use the control pad. Other systems all came with one. The SNES in 1991 was the first system to use L and R buttons on top. The next batch of systems (except for Jaguar), starting with 3DO, Saturn, and PS1, all had them. The 1996 N64 was the first home system to have an analog joystick with a seperate control pad (d-pad), and the first with a rumble feature. Guess what PS2, Dreamcast, and X-Box came with? See the patern? Bank on it, motion controllers are 100% here to stay and will be perfected next time around.

So you're comparing modifications to an industry standard with all hardware makers adopting an entirely new style of control altogether? That's a bit of a stretch.

Zap!

10-21-2007, 02:05 AM

So you're comparing modifications to an industry standard with all hardware makers adopting an entirely new style of control altogether? That's a bit of a stretch.

Absolutely, Nintendo has far more years experiance making controllers than anyone else. No matter what they come up with, it sets the standard and others follow. Period. The D-pad was very radical in 1985, not just a mere modification of a joystick. When I was just starting the 7th grade in October, 1985, many of the old school Atari/Coleco gamers said the control-pad/d-pad was stupid, would fail, and never wanted to give up their joysticks. They ate their words fast.

UniHamachi

10-21-2007, 02:36 AM

Rob2600

10-21-2007, 03:35 AM

I don't know why it seems like a stretch to you Melf -- Sony hastily incorporated tilt controls in the PS3 after the Wii was revealed, so it seems obvious that motion controls will become the industry standard. It's 2/3 of the way there already.

I think a pointing device will also become standard -- it just lends itself to so many games.

As White Knight pointed out, Nintendo's motion controls aren't the only thing that has been copied...the d-pad, shoulder buttons, analog stick, and rumble.

j_factor

10-21-2007, 04:00 AM

Zap!

10-21-2007, 04:32 AM

To be fair, Nintendo didn't actually invent any of those things. Rather, Nintendo adopted them, and their competitors followed suit.

And I didn't see Sony or Microsoft copying any aspect of the Gamecube controller either.

The first use of the d-pad that I can remember is from a handheld Nintendo-made Donkey Kong, around 1981. Who do you put as its inventor?

Also, I never mentioned the GC controller. It wasn't revolutionary, like the rest of Nintendo's controllers were.

UniHamachi

10-21-2007, 10:12 AM

They did rearrange the conventional 4 button diamnd pattern on on the GCN controller (big A, liitle b, x & y beans), but that didn't really catch on.

walrusmonger

10-21-2007, 11:10 AM

tom

10-21-2007, 11:32 AM

As White Knight pointed out, Nintendo's motion controls aren't the only thing that has been copied...the d-pad, shoulder buttons, analog stick, and rumble.

d-pad = copied from Intellivision disc controller
shoulder buttons = perhaps Nintendo, but 5200 had sort of on the side buttons, Amiga Powerstick
analog = all 70s consoles, Interton VC4000, Atari 5200, Vectrex (Vectrex even had 'Japanes style' joypad: 'control' left hand, 'fire' right hand)
rumble: (ok 1 out of four ain't bad, but arcades had it first)

Super Mario Fan

10-21-2007, 12:07 PM

no, it sucked totally and made multi-console release games a waste of time on the cube (unless they were cube first then ported).

i think sony hit the nail on the head with their ps3 controller- standard controller with motion abilities. the wii controller takes the fun out of games for me, i feel like i'm playing with a toddler's toy, not a game console.

They hit the nail on the head, with the PS3 controller? No rumble, "original" sixaxis idea, same controller for the last ten years? I know that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but they just fix little things here and there. (Dual Shock 3)

I'm not saying that you have to love the Wii controller, but I don't think you should knock one, while saying the other one's perfect.

alxbly

10-21-2007, 12:25 PM

Also, I never mentioned the GC controller. It wasn't revolutionary, like the rest of Nintendo's controllers were.

True. But it did introduce the first successful first-party wireless controller to the market and that seems to have paved the way for the wireless controllers of the current generation.

UniHamachi

10-21-2007, 12:33 PM

So true. Wavebird showed everyone else how wireless controllers should be done. Shame about the lack of rumble, though. I also love the N64 controller because it allows you to use analog or dpad without shifting your thumb in an unnatural position. That did not catch on, but it should have.

Just because you can identify the ancestors of bits and pieces of the Nintendo controller does not negate that the way Nintendo put everything together was revolutionary. The fact that they were wholesale copied only proves that Nintendo defined the modern videogame controller.

BTW, the Intellivision disc was total ass. The only thing it had in common with the cross Dpad was that you pressed it -- everything else was divergent.

Melf

10-21-2007, 01:06 PM

I don't know why it seems like a stretch to you Melf -- Sony hastily incorporated tilt controls in the PS3 after the Wii was revealed, so it seems obvious that motion controls will become the industry standard. It's 2/3 of the way there already.

Incorporating motion sensoring into a standard control set up is one thing; making the it the centerpiece of the controller is something else.

I think a pointing device will also become standard -- it just lends itself to so many games.

The problem is that it's just as bad for certain types of games as it is great for others. Until something comes along that works great for ALL types of games, I don't see it becoming the industry standard.

norkusa

10-21-2007, 01:17 PM

The problem is that it's just as bad for certain types of games as it is great for others. Until something comes along that works great for ALL types of games, I don't see it becoming the industry standard.

Yeah. I can't imagine playing any type of traditional 2D/3D fighting game with that thing. Just give me a joystick or a control pad at the very least and I'll happy.

j_factor

10-21-2007, 01:49 PM

The problem is that it's just as bad for certain types of games as it is great for others. Until something comes along that works great for ALL types of games, I don't see it becoming the industry standard.

No previous industry standard (and indeed, no controller in the history of gaming) has worked great for ALL (or even almost all) types of games. Every controller ever made has significant drawbacks.

Zap!

10-21-2007, 02:20 PM

As White Knight pointed out, Nintendo's motion controls aren't the only thing that has been copied...the d-pad, shoulder buttons, analog stick, and rumble.

Also, while they weren't the first to make a light gun (several Pong-type systems in the 70's had one), they were the first to use it on a dedicated system, the first to include it in a deluxe package, and the first to make it popular.

tom

10-21-2007, 02:34 PM

Also, while they weren't the first to make a light gun (several Pong-type systems in the 70's had one), they were the first to use it on a dedicated system, the first to include it in a deluxe package, and the first to make it popular.

Well no, Magnavox Odyssey (1972) was a dedicated system, and that introduced a light gun, a rifle actually which Nintendo copied for their arcade rifle range. And Milton Bradley issued a machine gun with their game 'Spitfire Attack' in 1982 for the VCS 2600. But yes, besides arcades, Nintendo popularized the light gun with Duck Hunt for NES. But on the whole, Nintendo copied, never invented.

tom

10-21-2007, 02:44 PM

No previous industry standard (and indeed, no controller in the history of gaming) has worked great for ALL (or even almost all) types of games. Every controller ever made has significant drawbacks.

Not quite true, the Atari CX40 was standard for almost ten years, as it was used on VCS, 7800, A8, C64, Atari ST, Amiga etc. It was called 'the 9-pin era', from 1980 to 1988.

Zap!

10-21-2007, 03:15 PM

Well no, Magnavox Odyssey (1972) was a dedicated system, and that introduced a light gun, a rifle actually which Nintendo copied for their arcade rifle range. And Milton Bradley issued a machine gun with their game 'Spitfire Attack' in 1982 for the VCS 2600. But yes, besides arcades, Nintendo popularized the light gun with Duck Hunt for NES. But on the whole, Nintendo copied, never invented.

I guess it depends how you define dedicated. I was talking programmable, where the 1976 Fairchild Channel F was the first cartridge programmable dedicated 100% system. :)

diskoboy

10-21-2007, 03:39 PM

Yes, games like The Godfather, Manhunt 2, Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3, Medal of Honor, Red Steel, Prince of Persia, and Scarface are way too kiddie.

I'm going to nitpick throught your list in order

The Godfather - Crap. And on every other console.
Manhunt 2 - wasn't impressed with the first one, probably won't be with this one. Probably would be if they'd have kept the AO rating.
RE4 - Good game, but seeing as how it's the best game on the Wii (IMO), it was also the best game on the GC. I still view it as a Gamecube game - not a Wii game.
MP3 - Got bored with after about a week
Medal of Honor - Sucked. And also on every other console
Red Steel - Sucked HARD.
PoP - meh. It had it's moments...
Scarface - Absolute CRAP.

And besides... I was talking about first party Nintendo. I'm tired of seeing Mario, Princess Peach, Bowser, and Link plastered over every game they come out with. And when you look at Nintendo's library, the ratio of kid games compared to mature games is astronomical.

tom

10-21-2007, 03:53 PM

I guess it depends how you define dedicated. I was talking programmable, where the 1976 Fairchild Channel F was the first cartridge programmable dedicated 100% system. :)

I define the Odyssey as programmable, as it uses different cards. The game cards re-programmed the console, a sort of reverse to what was expected from Channel F onwards

Zap!

10-21-2007, 04:02 PM

I'm going to nitpick throught your list in order

The Godfather - Crap. And on every other console.
Manhunt 2 - wasn't impressed with the first one, probably won't be with this one. Probably would be if they'd have kept the AO rating.
RE4 - Good game, but seeing as how it's the best game on the Wii (IMO), it was also the best game on the GC. I still view it as a Gamecube game - not a Wii game.
MP3 - Got bored with after about a week
Medal of Honor - Sucked. And also on every other console
Red Steel - Sucked HARD.
PoP - meh. It had it's moments...
Scarface - Absolute CRAP.

And besides... I was talking about first party Nintendo. I'm tired of seeing Mario, Princess Peach, Bowser, and Link plastered over every game they come out with. And when you look at Nintendo's library, the ratio of kid games compared to mature games is astronomical.

I define absolute crap as maybe a 3 rating. Scarface I'd give in the area of 7ish, and pretty much the same for Godfather. Neither are that bad, and sometimes fun. Red Steel I can see your side though. MP3 got 9 to 9.5 from critics, so you're in a tiny minority. How did you rate Zelda TP? Next week, Guitar Hero comes out, should be awesome. If that's not your style, perhaps you will like Super Mario Galaxy? Should be the top seller this Christmas season.

Edit: Oh yeah, MOH did suck...badly!

Zap!

10-21-2007, 04:05 PM

I define the Odyssey as programmable, as it uses different cards. The game cards re-programmed the console, a sort of reverse to what was expected from Channel F onwards

Well, even counting that, the NES made gun games popular. The average Joe Videogamer can probably name Duck Hunt, but not a single console gun game before then. Of course, the Sega Master System light gun was even better, as it registered misses.

UniHamachi

10-21-2007, 04:45 PM

The Atari CX40 was inadequate for a multitude of games. How is one button not considered a drawback? I remember playing Star Master and needing to use the console switches to bring up maps and things. That really showed how inherently limiting the controller was.

Nintendo is on the right track with the controlller + nunchuk design, but their misstep was to make the main remote shaped like a remote control. Imagine if it were shaped more like the nunchuck, with 4 main buttons and two triggers. Much more comfortable and functional. I think a split controller design would also benefit lefties.

You could always have a classic controller attachment for fighters and other DPad based games.

Melf

10-21-2007, 04:53 PM

No previous industry standard (and indeed, no controller in the history of gaming) has worked great for ALL (or even almost all) types of games. Every controller ever made has significant drawbacks.

At least a standard controller works marginally well for all genres. There are some, like fighters, that the motion sensor control isn't good for AT ALL. Until things like that can be fixed, I don't see it becoming the standard. Growing in acceptance? Perhaps, but not replacing the regular controller.

You could always have a classic controller attachment for fighters and other DPad based games.

If you have to have a classic attachment, then you're basically admitting that the motion sensor control doesn't work well for that.

UniHamachi

10-21-2007, 05:06 PM

Your attitude doesn't make sense -- there are games released with game specific controllers all the time, so there's no reason to limit either the controller or game design just to fit a universal controller. If a game requires a DPad (and that essentially is the limit to the split controller I described) and yet gaming itself is moving away from the DPad, then what the issue with having a Dpad style controller for some games? Why force a DPad that is used in a limited number of games for a pointer that has more versatility and utility?

Melf

10-21-2007, 05:42 PM

I'm not talking about game-specific controllers, like Samba de Amigo's maracas. I'm talking about motion sensors replacing stock controllers as the industry standard in ALL consoles. Your assumption makes no sense, because you're implying that people are going to buy a special control just to play, say, fighting games. That's totally different than having to buy a guitar to play Guitar Hero.

Saying that the D-pad controller will become a game-specific one implies that all consoles will switch to motion sensor. Are you going to have a separate controller for Street Fighter? Mortal Kombat? Tekken? Virtua Fighter? How many game-specific controllers are people supposed to buy because motion sensor - which you're saying will become the industry standard in the future - doesn't work even decently for every genre? For MS to replace a stock controller as the norm, it has to at least work decently with every type of game.

I can play Guitar Hero with a D-pad, and virtually all games requiring a special controller don't force you to have it to play. Will this be the case with motion sensor? Can you actually see people playing fighting games, RPGs of all kinds, sports, and everything else with a waggle controller? I can't.

UniHamachi

10-21-2007, 06:26 PM

Melf

10-21-2007, 06:38 PM

What you're talking about is wholesale replacing button and joystick controls with motion controls. I'm not talking about that. Nintendo didn't do that with the Wii either. I don't know why you feel it has to be all or nothing -- rumble, for instance, isn't necessary in most games but works well with others.

Bascially, I don't understand your point. You're arguing something I'm not even advocating.

You said:

I don't know why it seems like a stretch to you Melf -- Sony hastily incorporated tilt controls in the PS3 after the Wii was revealed, so it seems obvious that motion controls will become the industry standard. It's 2/3 of the way there already.

I think a pointing device will also become standard -- it just lends itself to so many games.

If the term "industry standard" doesn't imply the replacement of standard D-pad controllers with motion sensor controllers, what does it imply then? All I'm saying is that MS won't become the type of controller included in every console by every hardware manufacturer until it's proven to work with every genre. Right now, that's not the case.

I don't understand the argument for the MS control on Wii. On one hand, people are touting it as the future of gaming and the biggest innovation since the D-pad, while on the other hand they're saying it's not required for play. It won't become standard as long as you split people's options like that, and this philosophy is not really working on the Wii so far. Nintendo is incorportating the MS control from the ground up with games like Wii Zelda and Prime 3, but it's basically letting everyone else just tack it on. You can't expect people to embrace it as an innovation when you're letting everyone who makes games for your console treat it as a gimmick that's tacked on as an afterthought.

As for rumble, you're again comparing specific, non-essential enhancements to something that gamers would have to use right out of the box, unless they want to buy a special attachment.

UniHamachi

10-21-2007, 06:45 PM

To be honest, WiiSports is the only game that has really utilized motion control successfully. But the pointer has been implemented well, and is the large part of the experience in some games. But to say "industry standard" means that all controllers utilize it, not that it becomes the de facto control standard. I still don't know why it has to become the main control scheme to be considered "industry standard". Once MS joins the party (assuming they launch a next gen), montion control will be "industry standard" considering Sony and Nintendo both have it.

j_factor

10-21-2007, 08:50 PM

At least a standard controller works marginally well for all genres. There are some, like fighters, that the motion sensor control isn't good for AT ALL. Until things like that can be fixed, I don't see it becoming the standard. Growing in acceptance? Perhaps, but not replacing the regular controller.

When the NES came out, there were lots of games it wasn't good for at all. It had come out just after an era of 10-key pads and multiple controller designs. You couldn't do Microsurgeon on NES; Kaboom! with a d-pad would suck. But that didn't hinder the NES at all; it simply didn't have those kind of games (or in some cases it tried to, but they sucked and were ignored).

I do agree that some games simply couldn't work well with the Wii controller. But it goes both ways -- there are (and will be) games that work great on the Wii controller and wouldn't work very good on 360 or whatever. Have you played the 360 version of Rayman Raving Rabbids? It sucks ass.

If you have to have a classic attachment, then you're basically admitting that the motion sensor control doesn't work well for that.

And? How is that different from consoles having arcade sticks for fighting games, light guns, dance pads, and so on?

The Wii controller may necessitate the use of some game-specific controllers that wouldn't otherwise be necessary, but the converse is also true: with the Wii controller, some games that would otherwise require a specific controller no longer need to. You mentioned Samba de Amigo, which is interesting, because a new Samba de Amigo is coming to the Wii. I'm sure it will use the regular Wii controller -- that's probably the reason it's on Wii to begin with. Were it on 360, Sega would have to make a new maracas controller. Look also at Ghost Squad, which on another console would need a separate light gun controller, but on Wii it's not necessary.

Melf

10-21-2007, 10:36 PM

When the NES came out, there were lots of games it wasn't good for at all. It had come out just after an era of 10-key pads and multiple controller designs. You couldn't do Microsurgeon on NES; Kaboom! with a d-pad would suck. But that didn't hinder the NES at all; it simply didn't have those kind of games (or in some cases it tried to, but they sucked and were ignored).

Again, you're pointing to specific examples and not the overall amount of games released. Even on the 2600, Kaboom! needed a special controller. Not all games played like it, so it needed a game-specific controller. That's not the same as saying that motion sensor would be used for the majority of games released, as in "use MS unless special circumstances require a special controller."

I do agree that some games simply couldn't work well with the Wii controller. But it goes both ways -- there are (and will be) games that work great on the Wii controller and wouldn't work very good on 360 or whatever. Have you played the 360 version of Rayman Raving Rabbids? It sucks ass.

I agree, but I think it would take some MAJOR innovation on the part of developers to make motion sensor the norm with all types of games. We're not seeing this innovation on the Wii outside of Nintendo itself, and it doesn't look like anyone else going to really try any time soon.

And? How is that different from consoles having arcade sticks for fighting games, light guns, dance pads, and so on?

Because I don't need any of those to play a platformer, shmup, fighting game, etc., though it makes them play better. True, they enhance the experience, but the games that support them aren't totally unplayable without them. I can play games in any of the genres you listed with a D-pad. You're automatically assuming that if MS becomes the norm, they'll include separate control schemes for all games for those who want to use a regular control pad? I don't need a dance pad to play a platformer or a light gun to play Contra. I'd have to use MS for all genres if it were the standard controller included with every hardware, and right now that just doesn't work.

The Wii controller may necessitate the use of some game-specific controllers that wouldn't otherwise be necessary, but the converse is also true: with the Wii controller, some games that would otherwise require a specific controller no longer need to. You mentioned Samba de Amigo, which is interesting, because a new Samba de Amigo is coming to the Wii. I'm sure it will use the regular Wii controller -- that's probably the reason it's on Wii to begin with. Were it on 360, Sega would have to make a new maracas controller. Look also at Ghost Squad, which on another console would need a separate light gun controller, but on Wii it's not necessary.

You use two games that require special controllers as examples? Samba is a natural fit for the Wii, but is Street Fighter? Raiden? Can you imagine playing a fighting game for extended periods with the Wii controller?

Look, it's still quite early to judge, but we're not looking at shoulder buttons or an analog stick here. We're talking about totally replacing the existing control scheme with something completely different. Until the technology is there to allow people to use it with every game without thinking that it would be better with a regular controller, it won't become the standard. I think the next logical step would be something like the Sixaxis. You have both included, and one isn't totally replacing the other.

esquire

10-22-2007, 12:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoboy http://www.digitpress.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1264779#post1264779)
Nintendo seems to be sticking to their kiddie mantra.

Yes, games like The Godfather, Manhunt 2, Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3, Medal of Honor, Red Steel, Prince of Persia, and Scarface are way too kiddie.

Last time I checked, only one of those titles was published by Nintendo.

j_factor

10-22-2007, 12:49 AM

I agree, but I think it would take some MAJOR innovation on the part of developers to make motion sensor the norm with all types of games. We're not seeing this innovation on the Wii outside of Nintendo itself, and it doesn't look like anyone else going to really try any time soon.

I disagree, both with the idea that it takes "MAJOR" innovation to utilize the controller and that only Nintendo is utilizing it. There's a distinction to be made between using the Wii controller well, and making particularly innovative/interesting use of it. I am not suggesting that the latter will ever be a hugely widespread occurrence. I am only suggesting that the Wii controller is suitable for a great many number of games, and that the number of games it's not suitable for is balanced out by the number of games it is uniquely (or semi-uniquely) suitable for.

Because I don't need any of those to play a platformer, shmup, fighting game, etc., though it makes them play better. True, they enhance the experience, but the games that support them aren't totally unplayable without them. I can play games in any of the genres you listed with a D-pad.

Well, okay. You can play anything with the Wii controller too. But sometimes it sucks. Likewise with a d-pad. Light gun games with a d-pad suck every bit as much as using the Wii controller with a genre ill-suited to it.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with playing a platformer on the Wii. Assuming you mean 3D platformers, all you need is an analog stick and a few buttons. The Wii controller has that.

You're automatically assuming that if MS becomes the norm, they'll include separate control schemes for all games for those who want to use a regular control pad?

No, I'm saying that separate controllers won't be as necessary as you seem to think, and that there is nothing inherent about the Wii controller that means it can't be the "regular" control pad.

I don't need a dance pad to play a platformer or a light gun to play Contra.

Maybe that's because dance pads are made for DDR and light guns are for light gun games? I don't understand where you're going with this.

I'd have to use MS for all genres if it were the standard controller included with every hardware, and right now that just doesn't work.

Well, not exactly. Motion-sensing is just part of the Wii controller. Not every single game has to have motion sensing in it just because the controller does. Not all games -- not even very many games -- use every single button and every single feature of the controller that they use. Motion sensing is a nice option, but it's still just an option.

You use two games that require special controllers as examples? Samba is a natural fit for the Wii, but is Street Fighter? Raiden? Can you imagine playing a fighting game for extended periods with the Wii controller?

Fighting games are definitely a very bad fit for the Wii controller. I agree. But I think it is, at worst, an even trade-off.

Look, it's still quite early to judge, but we're not looking at shoulder buttons or an analog stick here. We're talking about totally replacing the existing control scheme with something completely different.

No, we're not. The Wii controller still has a d-pad, an analog stick, and some buttons. You're not removing that much stuff.

Until the technology is there to allow people to use it with every game without thinking that it would be better with a regular controller, it won't become the standard. I think the next logical step would be something like the Sixaxis. You have both included, and one isn't totally replacing the other.

The sixaxis only has nominal motion sensing. It doesn't have the "pointer" abilities of the Wii, it doesn't have a shape that is conducive to holding it in different ways, and I don't think (although I could be wrong) that its motion sensing is accurate enough for something like Wii Sports tennis.

diskoboy

10-22-2007, 02:16 AM

I define absolute crap as maybe a 3 rating. Scarface I'd give in the area of 7ish, and pretty much the same for Godfather. Neither are that bad, and sometimes fun. Red Steel I can see your side though. MP3 got 9 to 9.5 from critics, so you're in a tiny minority. How did you rate Zelda TP? Next week, Guitar Hero comes out, should be awesome. If that's not your style, perhaps you will like Super Mario Galaxy? Should be the top seller this Christmas season.

Edit: Oh yeah, MOH did suck...badly!

MP3 was okay. I just think the Metroid games belong in 2-D. Now that the Metroid games are in 3-D, the pacing seems alot slower. And the emphasis on exploration isn't as previlant as they were in 2-D.

Zelda - totally forgot about Zelda. It was another Okay game. But as I said, I'm just sick of the first party Nintendo franchises. I returned Super Paper Mario, 2 days after I bought it.

The Wii has only 2 games coming out soon, I'm looking forward too. And SMG is one of them. The other is NiGHTS. My only fear is that SMG will be alot like Mario 64, which I absolutely loathed. And I've lost almost all hope in Sega, so I'm hesitant of NiGHTS, as well..

And look at this upcoming release list - tell me it doesn't scream "kiddie".

10/22 EA Playground
10/22 The Sims 2: Castaway
10/23 Hannah Montana: Spotlight Worl...
10/23 Namco Museum Remix
10/23 Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution
10/23 Nicktoons: Attack of the Toybots
10/23 Sea Monsters: A Prehistoric Ad...
10/23 Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaro...
10/26 Offroad Extreme Special Edition
10/28 Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock

Guitar Hero 3 (which I will be buying for my 360) is the only mature game on that list. I mean seriously... that list is just plain sad.

gum_drops

10-22-2007, 04:05 AM

And look at this upcoming release list - tell me it doesn't scream "kiddie".

Your list was by release date, here is an alphabetical one. People will argue the term kiddie, so I will just say it screams E-rated, which isn't a bad thing, it all depends on the person and the kind of games they enjoy.

Upcoming wii "exclusives" as of july when the list was published, A through C.

Action Girlz Racing - rated E
Agatha Christie - rated E
Alien syndrome - rated T
Animal Crossing Wii - most likely E
Anubis II - Rated E
Arctic Tale - Rated E
BWii: Battalion Wars 2 - Teen
Balls of Fury - Rated E
Billy the Wizard - Take a guess
Blast Works: Build, Fuse & Destroy - Rated E
Bleach: Shattered Blade - Rated E
Bob Ross: The Joy of Painting - Tough call on this one
Boogie - Rated E
Carnival Games - Rated E
Chocobo's Dungeon - Most Likely E
Cosmic Family - Rated E
Counter Force - Rated E
Cruis'n - Rated E

j_factor

10-22-2007, 04:57 AM

Although they may be rated E, I don't think The Sims 2: Castaway or Namco Museum Remix qualify as kiddie. The Sims franchise has been hugely successful, and mostly with adults. Only old fogies, Gen-X'ers, and twenty somethings care about stuff like Namco Museum.

Just because something doesn't contain "mature content", doesn't mean children are its main audience.

boatofcar

10-22-2007, 07:41 AM

UniHamachi

10-22-2007, 09:00 AM

We're talking about totally replacing the existing control scheme with something completely different.
Actually, you're the only one saying that. So you're arguing about nothing.

The Sixaxis MS scheme is a failure bceause you need a split controller like Nintendo has. All those Marble Madness type control schemes (like the one in Lair and countless Wii shovelware) are inherently failures. Aside from the fact that the controls are twitchy, the way you hold the Wii remote or Sixaxis are inherently limiting, because you need to be able to hold the controller in a natural position and twist your wrist. The Wii remote make you hold it palm up and the Sixaxis makes you hold it with two hands. If the Wii remote were held like the Nunchuk, it could work.

neuropolitique

10-22-2007, 09:28 AM

The biggest drawback, and the reason why I think MS control will never take off in the way some people in this thread think it will, is simply because of muscle fatigue. Nobody wants to be uncomfortable gaming, and that's simply what happens when you try and play the Wii for long stretches of time.

If the Wii is too much for you maybe you need to get outside more often. Waving your arms around, specially the small amount the Wii requires, isn't all that tiring.

On topic: Not surprised the 360 pulled ahead with Halo. Not so sure the Wii can retake the lead with it's current line-up. This will be an interesting Christmas for sure. 'Cept for the PS3.

UniHamachi

10-22-2007, 09:45 AM

Not surprised the 360 pulled ahead with Halo. Not so sure the Wii can retake the lead with it's current line-up. This will be an interesting Christmas for sure. 'Cept for the PS3.
If a 27K difference is all MS can do with Halo3, then the Wii will rule this Christmas going away. Supply will be the only factor here.

The Wii is like a blockbuster movie in a multiplex -- when it's sold out and people can't get tickets, they end up watching other movies. If you can't get a Wii, then you will have to settle for a 360 or PS3, and I sort of think that Ratchet & Clank is more appealing to the people who want a Wii than Halo3, plus the BluRay player might be the difference maker.

Super Mario Fan

10-22-2007, 12:21 PM

If a 27K difference is all MS can do with Halo3, then the Wii will rule this Christmas going away. Supply will be the only factor here.

The Wii is like a blockbuster movie in a multiplex -- when it's sold out and people can't get tickets, they end up watching other movies. If you can't get a Wii, then you will have to settle for a 360 or PS3, and I sort of think that Ratchet & Clank is more appealing to the people who want a Wii than Halo3, plus the BluRay player might be the difference maker.

Now, I love the Wii. I don't own a 360 or a PS3. But I'm going to say that if someone can't get a Wii, they're not going to pay hundreds of dollars to "settle" on something else. A $10 movie ticket is one thing, a new system is completely different. Plus I don't think people were at the store thinking "I can't get a Wii to play Wii Sports? Hell, then I guess I'll have to settle for this 'Halo 3' garbage. What a waste!"

Melf

10-22-2007, 12:42 PM

I disagree, both with the idea that it takes "MAJOR" innovation to utilize the controller and that only Nintendo is utilizing it. There's a distinction to be made between using the Wii controller well, and making particularly innovative/interesting use of it. I am not suggesting that the latter will ever be a hugely widespread occurrence. I am only suggesting that the Wii controller is suitable for a great many number of games, and that the number of games it's not suitable for is balanced out by the number of games it is uniquely (or semi-uniquely) suitable for.

I agree, but until motion sensor becomes suitable for more than just some games, it won't eliminate the standard controller as the first option developers go to.

Someone questioned why I think it has to be "all or nothing," but it really isn't me making that statement. Nintendo did so when it made the Wiimote it's standard controller for the Wii. By severely reducing the amount of buttons on the Wiimote (a D-pad and two face buttons are all you get), it was basically telling developers make or adapt their games to use the motion sensor, because it's impossible to port a game over to the Wii without making major changes to the standard control set up. "Ah, but you can always use the Classic Controller!" you say. Well, again, Nintendo is telling you that if you want a traditional set up, you have to buy an extra controller - their controller - to do so. So developers either use the motion sensor, cripple their control scheme, or force customers to buy an extra controller. THAT'S why it's all or nothing.

I think the token use of motion sensor outside of Nintendo really shows how reluctant the industry is to adapt it. Personally - and this is the main point I'm trying to make - I think that MS could become the standard in the future, once the technology is developed enough to make it useful with all types of games. So long as developers are given the crutch of traditional control schemes, you can't expect MS to become the norm.

BTW, what other companies outside of Nintendo itself are pushing ahead with innovative use of the Wiimote? So far it's only been a tacked-on afterthought for most 3rd parties.

Well, okay. You can play anything with the Wii controller too. But sometimes it sucks. Likewise with a d-pad. Light gun games with a d-pad suck every bit as much as using the Wii controller with a genre ill-suited to it.

That's my whole point. Motion sensor isn't going to work with everything (can you see yourself playing a twitch shmup with it?), so developers are going to have to offer the traditional set up. So long as you keep having to go back to that, MS will never truly break free as the standard. All I'm saying is that we're still quite a ways off from it happening.

No, I'm saying that separate controllers won't be as necessary as you seem to think, and that there is nothing inherent about the Wii controller that means it can't be the "regular" control pad.

You don't think that the fact that there are still many types of games with which the Wii controller doesn't work well means that it isn't ready to be the "regular" type of controller future console will include?

Well, not exactly. Motion-sensing is just part of the Wii controller. Not every single game has to have motion sensing in it just because the controller does. Not all games -- not even very many games -- use every single button and every single feature of the controller that they use. Motion sensing is a nice option, but it's still just an option.

Using a shoulder button isn't the same as having someone hold a motion sensor. This is the problem I have with the whole Wiimote thing. People laud it as immensely innovative, then show a buttload of examples where it's not needed or doesn't work. That only gives the impression that it's a cool gimmick, but not something that's ready to sweep the whole industry. It's either innovative or it's not. The whole "it's only innovative when it needs to be" argument seems like moving the goal posts to me.

Fighting games are definitely a very bad fit for the Wii controller. I agree. But I think it is, at worst, an even trade-off.

I'm sure many fighting fans would be hesitant to buy a fighting game that only used motion sensor control. Heck, Smash Bros. Brawl shows that not even Nintendo is sure that it will be embraced by fighting fans. The fact that the majority of the control schemes are for traditional controls (even the Wavebird!) says a lot.

No, we're not. The Wii controller still has a d-pad, an analog stick, and some buttons. You're not removing that much stuff.

Then we're not being really innovative. Honestly, if you're going to still include everything a traditional controller has and say that not all games have to use it, how can it become the standard?

The sixaxis only has nominal motion sensing. It doesn't have the "pointer" abilities of the Wii, it doesn't have a shape that is conducive to holding it in different ways, and I don't think (although I could be wrong) that its motion sensing is accurate enough for something like Wii Sports tennis.

True, but I meant that the next step will probably be a refined version of this and not a pointer/sensor. Unless we see some major use of it, the Wiimote-type of control doesn't look like it's going to replace anything.

Actually, you're the only one saying that. So you're arguing about nothing.

Um, I was answering a point brought up by several people in this thread, including you.

kaedesdisciple

10-22-2007, 12:52 PM

If a 27K difference is all MS can do with Halo3, then the Wii will rule this Christmas going away. Supply will be the only factor here.

The Wii is like a blockbuster movie in a multiplex -- when it's sold out and people can't get tickets, they end up watching other movies. If you can't get a Wii, then you will have to settle for a 360 or PS3, and I sort of think that Ratchet & Clank is more appealing to the people who want a Wii than Halo3, plus the BluRay player might be the difference maker.

You may want to rework that inaccurate, fanboy-inspired comparison. If the movie I wanted to see that would cost me $10 were sold out, I would not pay $20 to watch a movie I did not want to see.

People want the Wii for a reason, they are not going to "settle" for any system, especially when it is not the one they want and way more expensive. Besides, if they want it, they can get it. This is not the dark ages where people only had one store that would sell them these things.

UniHamachi

10-22-2007, 02:24 PM

You may want to rework that inaccurate, fanboy-inspired comparison.
If you disagree with my analogy, fine, but I have no idea why you labelled it fanboyism.

As is the nature of all analogies, they are only meant to illustrate a point -- there is no real purpose is stretching it further than what it is.

I still don't get the fanboyism charge. Is that PS3, Wii, or 260 fanboyism?

diskoboy

10-22-2007, 03:02 PM

Your list was by release date, here is an alphabetical one. People will argue the term kiddie, so I will just say it screams E-rated, which isn't a bad thing, it all depends on the person and the kind of games they enjoy.

Upcoming wii "exclusives" as of july when the list was published, A through C.

Action Girlz Racing - rated E
Agatha Christie - rated E
Alien syndrome - rated T
Animal Crossing Wii - most likely E
Anubis II - Rated E
Arctic Tale - Rated E
BWii: Battalion Wars 2 - Teen
Balls of Fury - Rated E
Billy the Wizard - Take a guess
Blast Works: Build, Fuse & Destroy - Rated E
Bleach: Shattered Blade - Rated E
Bob Ross: The Joy of Painting - Tough call on this one
Boogie - Rated E
Carnival Games - Rated E
Chocobo's Dungeon - Most Likely E
Cosmic Family - Rated E
Counter Force - Rated E
Cruis'n - Rated E

Alien Syndrome, I have...... You wanna talk about an awful game!!?? AS is a prime example of why I am slowly losing faith in Sega. The gameplay is ultra-repetitive, and downright dull. To add insult to injury, they didn't even include the original arcade game as an unlockable.

And J_Factor, you make a good point about the Namco Classics, but since I already own Galaga and Pac-Man arcade machines, and have the Namco 50th Anniversary collection on the first Xbox, and half of the Namco lineup on XBLA, I'd be a waste of money to buy yet another copy (unless they include online multiplayer modes). The Sims on the other hand.... I just don't enjoy the Sims franchise. If it was Sim CITY, now that's a different story, all together. I love me some Sim City. Speaking of the Sims series of games, I'd be all over Sim Earth when it comes out on the VC - I used to play the hell out of that game before my SNES was stolen.

The rest of the list looks like either the Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network lineup.

That Bob Ross game could be interesting, though... And yes, I'm serious about that statement. I really admired Bob Ross... He was an amazing painter, even thought he sounded like he was on qualiudes, half the time.

Batallion Wars 2 - I'm up in the air on that one... Haven't heard much about it.

ubersaurus

10-22-2007, 03:35 PM

d-pad = copied from Intellivision disc controller
shoulder buttons = perhaps Nintendo, but 5200 had sort of on the side buttons, Amiga Powerstick
analog = all 70s consoles, Interton VC4000, Atari 5200, Vectrex (Vectrex even had 'Japanes style' joypad: 'control' left hand, 'fire' right hand)
rumble: (ok 1 out of four ain't bad, but arcades had it first)

You're really reaching on the shoulder buttons and d-pad bits. Functionally both of those are wildly different. And the only pre-NES consoles with analogue sticks were the 5200, that arcadia clone, and vectrex. Let's face it, none of those really made any sort of impact, and barely used the analogue stick for anything anyway.

Zap!

10-22-2007, 05:21 PM

d-pad = copied from Intellivision disc controller
shoulder buttons = perhaps Nintendo, but 5200 had sort of on the side buttons, Amiga Powerstick
analog = all 70s consoles, Interton VC4000, Atari 5200, Vectrex (Vectrex even had 'Japanes style' joypad: 'control' left hand, 'fire' right hand)
rumble: (ok 1 out of four ain't bad, but arcades had it first)

The d-pad is not a round iPod-like disk that the INTV had. It is completely different. The analog self centering stick was only used on Vecrex, and not with a d-pad combo. 5200's side buttons are like top shoulder buttons? Come on now, get serious, they're as different as night and day.

j_factor

10-23-2007, 01:00 AM

I agree, but until motion sensor becomes suitable for more than just some games, it won't eliminate the standard controller as the first option developers go to.

I honestly think the Wii controller is suitable for most games. Really, fighting games are the only big exception IMO. I might even go so far as to say that the Wii controller is suitable for more types of games than the PS2 (or whatever) controller. The Wii controller is quite versatile IMO.

Someone questioned why I think it has to be "all or nothing," but it really isn't me making that statement. Nintendo did so when it made the Wiimote it's standard controller for the Wii. By severely reducing the amount of buttons on the Wiimote (a D-pad and two face buttons are all you get), it was basically telling developers make or adapt their games to use the motion sensor, because it's impossible to port a game over to the Wii without making major changes to the standard control set up.

The standard Wii controller is the Wiimote with Nunchuk. That's what you get in the box when you buy a Wii. I don't know of any Wii games going out of their way to force Wiimote-only controls when it's not suitable; the only games that use the Wiimote without the Nunchuk are games that are more conducive to that kind of control.

"Ah, but you can always use the Classic Controller!" you say. Well, again, Nintendo is telling you that if you want a traditional set up, you have to buy an extra controller - their controller - to do so. So developers either use the motion sensor, cripple their control scheme, or force customers to buy an extra controller. THAT'S why it's all or nothing.

The Classic Controller, to me, is a non-issue. Although it can be used in Wii games, that's not something I've been giving consideration to in this conversation.

I disagree entirely that using the standard Wii controller requires a crippling of the control scheme in many cases. Most games seem to be adapting just fine.

I think the token use of motion sensor outside of Nintendo really shows how reluctant the industry is to adapt it. Personally - and this is the main point I'm trying to make - I think that MS could become the standard in the future, once the technology is developed enough to make it useful with all types of games. So long as developers are given the crutch of traditional control schemes, you can't expect MS to become the norm.

All the references to MS becoming "the norm" are only claiming that MS technology will be included as standard with the major consoles next gen. Not necessarily that the motion-sensing itself will be the core part of how most games are controlled.

BTW, what other companies outside of Nintendo itself are pushing ahead with innovative use of the Wiimote? So far it's only been a tacked-on afterthought for most 3rd parties.

Innovation, by definition, isn't something that will happen with a majority of cases. And it doesn't need to. All I'm saying is that the Wii controller will work fine for most games. Not that everything it touches turns to gold. I think you're setting an arbitrarily high bar. Of course games are still going to exist that don't really need motion sensing.

You don't think that the fact that there are still many types of games with which the Wii controller doesn't work well means that it isn't ready to be the "regular" type of controller future console will include?

I disagree with the presupposition in this question. I don't think it's a fact that there are still many types of games with which the Wii controller doesn't work well. I certainly don't think it outnumbers the types of games with which the PS2 controller doesn't work well. It's just that the specific types are different. Types of games that you're used to working fine with a standard controller no longer do, and types of games that you're used to not working fine with a standard controller now do.

Using a shoulder button isn't the same as having someone hold a motion sensor. This is the problem I have with the whole Wiimote thing. People laud it as immensely innovative, then show a buttload of examples where it's not needed or doesn't work. That only gives the impression that it's a cool gimmick, but not something that's ready to sweep the whole industry. It's either innovative or it's not. The whole "it's only innovative when it needs to be" argument seems like moving the goal posts to me.

What I said was this: "There's a distinction to be made between using the Wii controller well, and making particularly innovative/interesting use of it. I am not suggesting that the latter will ever be a hugely widespread occurrence. I am only suggesting that the Wii controller is suitable for a great many number of games"

The controller itself is innovative, yes. But it doesn't necessarily require innovation on the part of every developer to utilize. It opens the door for new possibilities, but it doesn't mean every single game has to go to that length.

Then we're not being really innovative. Honestly, if you're going to still include everything a traditional controller has and say that not all games have to use it, how can it become the standard?

This is no different from, for example, the addition of analog control. They still included everything a traditional controller had, and said that not all games had to use it. By all accounts analog became standard. I also don't recall people bitching about third parties not being all that innovative with it.

I think you're arguing in two different directions. On the one hand, you're saying that the Wii controller is too different, but then on the other, you're saying that it's not different enough. Innovation will never be the standard. If something is standard it's no longer innovative.

Note also that I haven't argued for innovation; you're the only one using that word. My argument (well, the proposition for which I am arguing) is that the Wii controller is at least as versatile as any other, and possibly moreso. Most types of games can work fine on the Wii controller.

j_factor

10-23-2007, 01:10 AM

And J_Factor, you make a good point about the Namco Classics, but since I already own Galaga and Pac-Man arcade machines, and have the Namco 50th Anniversary collection on the first Xbox, and half of the Namco lineup on XBLA, I'd be a waste of money to buy yet another copy (unless they include online multiplayer modes). The Sims on the other hand.... I just don't enjoy the Sims franchise.

I wasn't telling you to buy those games. I was just saying that they're not kiddie. Personally, I don't give a damn about The Sims either. Namco Museum Remix actually isn't another copy of previous Namco Museum releases; it includes unique remakes designed around the Wii controller. So instead of emulating Rally-X, it has a new game based on Rally-X. I'm actually looking forward to it.

boatofcar

10-23-2007, 04:11 AM

If the Wii is too much for you maybe you need to get outside more often. Waving your arms around, specially the small amount the Wii requires, isn't all that tiring.

Thanks for calling me unathletic. Preciate it. Maybe you should tell that to the tennis players that get tennis elbow, or the typists who get carpal tunnel. Just get outside more! Jeez.

Muscle fatigue is different than being tired. It can occur any time you repeat a single movement over and over again. I tend to game in marathon sessions on the weekends, logging in six or seven hours in day sometimes. It's not a big deal when you're sprawled on the couch pressing buttons on a controller, but if you're forced to play a game where you have to keep your arms up and pointed at the screen for that amount of time, you're going to be sore.

Melf

10-23-2007, 10:05 AM

I think you're arguing in two different directions. On the one hand, you're saying that the Wii controller is too different, but then on the other, you're saying that it's not different enough. Innovation will never be the standard. If something is standard it's no longer innovative.

The only argument I'm making about motion sensor is that I think the technology, while full of potential, isn't ready to become the industry standard. In regards to the Wiimote's innovation, it seems, to me at least, that those arguing in favor of the Wiimote are the ones who have been going in two different directions. It's lauded as highly innovative and ground-breaking, and some people in this very thread have said that it could lead to MS controls becoming the norm, but whenever someone questions its use with different types of games it's reduced to merely an option that isn't forced on anyone.

That seems to have been the general tone with the Wii since it launched. Every month, someone trots out the latest NPD hardware sales numbers to show how the Wii is trouncing the PS3 and 360, but whenever someone questions the library or the lack of major 3rd party titles, they say that Nintendo's shooting for a different market and a different demographic. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The same goes for the Wiimote. Either it's an innovation that's changing things, or it's just another option that you don't have to use. That would reduce it, in my eyes, to something like rumble. You don't need rumble, and omitting it doesn't affect the game at all. Just about every major Wii title not made by Nintendo (and some even made by them, like the new Smash Bros.) are offerering control alternatives with the standard set up. Even NIGHTS 2, a game you'd think would be made ground up for the Wiimote, is going to include the option to use the Classic Controller. How can Nintendo expect anyone to think of MS as anything other than a fad if developers keep offering reasons for players not to use it? So far, the only games that really need it are a relative minority, like the light gun and rhythm games you mentioned. Before we can even talk about MS becoming the standard, which is a point brought up by others here first, not by me, it needs to first become the standard on the very console that introduced it!

What I'm saying is that the Wiimote is decidedly different, but not quite ready to replace the traditional controller. It's a big change, sure, but it hasn't quite won over the development community so far, as we've seen by it's token implementation in games made by everyone but Nintendo. To me, Nintendo seems to be trying to push the bar again, and the fact that it severely reduced the amount of buttons on the stock Wiimote and sells a full traditional controller separately shows how it's trying to discourage developers from relying on the standard control scheme. It's still letting developers rely too much on it though. Unfortunately, as long as this crutch is around, it's going to be used. There's not really much it can do about it though. It can't force anyone to embrace MS, and unless a change comes quick, I think you're going to see its impact severely reduced.

Note also that I haven't argued for innovation; you're the only one using that word. My argument (well, the proposition for which I am arguing) is that the Wii controller is at least as versatile as any other, and possibly moreso. Most types of games can work fine on the Wii controller.

People, especially Nintendo itself, have been touting the Wiimote as "innovative" since before the system even launched. It's not my word.

j_factor

10-24-2007, 03:41 AM

The only argument I'm making about motion sensor is that I think the technology, while full of potential, isn't ready to become the industry standard. In regards to the Wiimote's innovation, it seems, to me at least, that those arguing in favor of the Wiimote are the ones who have been going in two different directions. It's lauded as highly innovative and ground-breaking, and some people in this very thread have said that it could lead to MS controls becoming the norm, but whenever someone questions its use with different types of games it's reduced to merely an option that isn't forced on anyone.

Either it's an innovation that's changing things, or it's just another option that you don't have to use. That would reduce it, in my eyes, to something like rumble.

...So then we agree? Rumble is pretty standard. Since it was introduced on N64, it was soon offered on Playstation, and then every console after that had rumble at launch. Except PS3, and there was a huge stink about its lack of rumble, and now a rumble controller is coming.

Rumble is standard and it's almost always used, even when it's not really "necessary" for the game. That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying will happen (or is already happening, even) with Wii controls.

So far, the only games that really need it are a relative minority, like the light gun and rhythm games you mentioned.

That's true. But it's also true that the only games that need to not have it are a relatively small minority. Which is my main point. Most games can work fine with the Wii controller even if they don't "need" it.

Not every DS game uses the touchscreen, and not every game that does use touchscreen control needs to, or is even particularly better because of it. But I never heard such complaints about the DS touchscreen.

Before we can even talk about MS becoming the standard, which is a point brought up by others here first, not by me, it needs to first become the standard on the very console that introduced it!

It is the standard, by virtue of the fact that it's the only controller packed with the system, and virtually every game is compatible with it. You seem to be arguing the word "standard" on a game implementation basis. What was meant by saying that motion-sensing controllers would become "standard" was merely a prediction that it would be included with the major consoles of the next generation. It's just a prediction, and not really based on the merits of motion sensing control.

What I'm saying is that the Wiimote is decidedly different, but not quite ready to replace the traditional controller. It's a big change, sure, but it hasn't quite won over the development community so far, as we've seen by it's token implementation in games made by everyone but Nintendo.

I've been intentionally silent on this point because I've felt it opens a whole different can of worms. But since you keep bringing it up, I'll say it: I don't think Nintendo's the only company implementing the unique aspects of the Wii controller in more than a token sense. There may be a glut of lazy ports but they're not all that exists.

To me, Nintendo seems to be trying to push the bar again, and the fact that it severely reduced the amount of buttons on the stock Wiimote and sells a full traditional controller separately shows how it's trying to discourage developers from relying on the standard control scheme. It's still letting developers rely too much on it though. Unfortunately, as long as this crutch is around, it's going to be used.

So when analog sticks were introduced, they should've removed d-pads from controllers at the same time?

People, especially Nintendo itself, have been touting the Wiimote as "innovative" since before the system even launched. It's not my word.

No, it's not your word, but it's a subject that only you are arguing about. "Innovativeness" is simply not what I'm talking about. In fact, my initial comment that spurned this argument was that I disagree with the idea that innovation is necessary. The level of innovation that is or isn't there, is irrelevant to my disagreement.