Great article about what Gamestop SHOULD do (but most likely won't)

[tkusina]

I purchased Dawn of Mana online from Gamestop NEW last week and received it today. I would love to see gamestops policy on what is considered new and what is used.

The copy i received didnt have any shrinkwrapping or security sticker they use. The case had a crushing dent in it. the manual had a 1 inch fold in the corner and the rest of the corners were slightly bent. The disc had scratches all over it. I would say a t least a dozen light scratches and 3 larger ones that could be seen when holding the disc 5 feet away.

How is this new? This was a used disc sold at a new price. How can this even be justified as new? How am i supposed to know i am going to be sent this when i purchase a new game?

To all the posters that have defended Gamestop in this practice i would love to know where do you draw the line between new and used?

More importantly, where does Gamestop draw the line?

I am done purchasing from Gamestop. I'm tired of getting sold crap and told its steak.

[TonyTheTiger]

In Gamestop's defense, I do think there is a difference between an open game and an outright used game. But at the same time there is an obvious difference between a new game and an open game. All the more reason I think Gamestop just needs to adopt an intermediate grade between "new" and "used/preowned." Call it "shelf copy" or "floor copy" or whatever. This way people know what they are getting. They don't have to worry about not being able to return it because the receipt will note that it was a shelf copy. And to make it a reasonable system, Gamestop should make the 10% discount automatic for all shelf copies.

[PallarAndersVisa]

everyone should try their very best not to give Gamestop any business. I'd rather shop at K-Mart than go to Gamestop.

[Streetball 21]

In my opinion, once the plastic is off the game it becomes used. Gamestop should find another system to sell their new games sealed. The casual gamer may not mind buying games like this, but the hardcore crowd like myself and others on here do.

[TonyTheTiger]

In my opinion, once the plastic is off the game it becomes used.

Eh. It's not *quite* used though, now is it? At least not according to most modern semantics. Hence the third category I propose. What if someone takes a new game and shakes the hell out of it to jar the disc loose which scratches it up inside all while leaving the plastic pristine? Is that "used"? Maybe. Or maybe it's just damaged goods. It's certainly in worse condition than the shelf copy. There has to be more than "new" and "used" to qualify something.

[Streetball 21]

So the game case is not part of the game? When I see the cases scratched and full of stickers sitting on the shelf, sorry but I think it is already used, regardless if the disc is sitting in a drawer. I know we all have different opinions, but that is just mine. I would love to see Best Buy or another major chain gut movies and see people flip out over it, believe me, not many movie lovers would like that.

[TonyTheTiger]

So the game case is not part of the game? When I see the cases scratched and full of stickers sitting on the shelf, sorry but I think it is already used, regardless if the disc is sitting in a drawer. I know we all have different opinions, but that is just mine. I would love to see Best Buy or another major chain gut movies and see people flip out over it, believe me, not many movie lovers would like that.

What you're talking about is "less than pristine" condition. Not "used" condition. See my previous example. Think of a shrinkwrapped SNES game that was smashed around by accident during shipping. The box is dented but the shrinkwrap is still on. Never been opened. Is it "used"? Not really. It's just in worse condition. They do this in supermarkets all the time. "Day old bread" sales or "dented can" sales aren't the same as "used bread" or "used canned goods" sales. Better terminology is needed to make these distinctions.

[Greg2600]

I agree for sure that GameStop should not be selling opened packages as new. The employees open the games so they can play them, so don't penalize the consumer. In terms of PC games, that entire market has killed itself. The technology available in consoles and online gaming has taken a lot of the advantage from PC games. Plus its a lot cheaper to upgrade a game console every 5 years than a PC. Also, PC publishers constantly re-release games at bargain prices (EA of course), which deflates the value of the used game. They also need to have at least a manager who knows games, and usually they do.

I don't have much of a beef with Gamestop. I haven't traded anything in to them in ages, although no chain game store has offered reasonable trade in values since the early Funcoland days of the mid-90's. I still love the fact that GameStop.com displays the availability of all games, new and used, at stores by zip code. Also I like that unlike EB, most Gamestops are along the highway or in a strip mall, so you don't have to go insane driving to one of the mega-malls to go to one.

[FantasiaWHT]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Do you go to a store that sells clothes and demand a discount on a shirt because it's been handled out on the floor and somebody might have even tried it on? Do you still consider the shirt "new"?

The problem with the 10% discount on every shelf copy is that there are a LOT of shelf copies, and 10% is generally more than the markup on a brand new game, so you're asking the stores to sell all those games with no profit.

Honestly, way too few people actually care about it to justify making an across-the-board discount. I think the best compromise is to leave it up to store managers to give the discount when somebody complains about it.


Also I like that unlike EB, most Gamestops are along the highway or in a strip mall, so you don't have to go insane driving to one of the mega-malls to go to one.

You're a bit behind the times... when EB started its massive expansion around 2002-2003, it was ONLY opening new strip mall locations. Yes, it used to be almost all in large malls, but that really hasn't been true for the past 5 years.

[tkusina]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Do you go to a store that sells clothes and demand a discount on a shirt because it's been handled out on the floor and somebody might have even tried it on? Do you still consider the shirt "new"?



Well, if there are irremovable stickers on the shirt itself, its out of the package (if it has one), has a rip on it (scratches on discs lets say) and you knew that the employees were allowed to check that shirt out, wear it and bring it back......i would probably call that used. :eek 2: In that case i would either pass on it or ask for a discount if i really wanted it.

Who hear pays full price for a floor model of a tv, dvd player or any other electronic? You usually pay a discount for a floor model. How are Gamestop games different from a floor model?

[8-bitNesMan]

just because 2-4% of people who buy video games from gamestop are insecure introverted and uninspired white boys and get annoyed...

WHOA! Slow down there, Habeeb! I am NOT uninspired!! LOL

[FantasiaWHT]

Well, if there are irremovable stickers on the shirt itself, its out of the package (if it has one), has a rip on it (scratches on discs lets say) and you knew that the employees were allowed to check that shirt out, wear it and bring it back......i would probably call that used. :eek 2: In that case i would either pass on it or ask for a discount if i really wanted it.

If you knew employees were allowed to wear a shirt home to check it out, would you ask for a discount on ALL floor shirts or just ones that have actually been tried? And what if there wasn't any visible damage? It makes no sense to ask for an across-the-board discount because a product MIGHT be damaged.


Who hear pays full price for a floor model of a tv, dvd player or any other electronic? You usually pay a discount for a floor model. How are Gamestop games different from a floor model?

As I said above, it's different for several reasons: 1) Those electronics have much higher markups and stores can still make profits on discounted floor models. 2) Those floor models are demo units that have actually been USED (granted, some video games have had their discs used as well, but it's a small percentage of the whole). 3) A store has only a small number of floor model electronics compared to the number of gutted new games that a GS/EB has.

Remember, I'm for discretionary discounts for games that are either a) ACTUALLY used (in the demo units or checked out by employees), or b) visibly damaged.

Do you get to call a DVD at Best Buy "used" and get a discount simply because it has been handled on the shelf? No; handling of the outer case does not constitute "using".

[Rob2600]

I see books and magazines at Barnes and Noble that are bent, wrinkled, and in some cases, slightly ripped. Would the cashier give me a discount on them? I don't know.

Unless EB's/GameStop's POS software has been changed, there is a "shopworn" discount option for this exact situation (a product that isn't used, but isn't in new condition, either).

Regarding gutting: We gutted games at my store, but none of us were allowed to borrow them. The gutted discs went directly from the game case into a plastic sleeve in a drawer. We were very careful. Still, a couple of customers would insist on buying unopened games only, which was fine.


By the way, for a very similar discussion from two months ago, check out this thread:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108811

There are many good points made.

[smork]

If you knew employees were allowed to wear a shirt home to check it out, would you ask for a discount on ALL floor shirts or just ones that have actually been tried? And what if there wasn't any visible damage? It makes no sense to ask for an across-the-board discount because a product MIGHT be damaged.



As I said above, it's different for several reasons: 1) Those electronics have much higher markups and stores can still make profits on discounted floor models. 2) Those floor models are demo units that have actually been USED (granted, some video games have had their discs used as well, but it's a small percentage of the whole). 3) A store has only a small number of floor model electronics compared to the number of gutted new games that a GS/EB has.

Remember, I'm for discretionary discounts for games that are either a) ACTUALLY used (in the demo units or checked out by employees), or b) visibly damaged.

Do you get to call a DVD at Best Buy "used" and get a discount simply because it has been handled on the shelf? No; handling of the outer case does not constitute "using".

Sorry, your analogies to clothing don't hold water. Clothing on racks isn't packaged, games/movies/CDs are. If packaging is opened, it's not new. If you open a DVD player box, it's not new (nor do most stores sell it as new). Opened CDs aren't new, neither does Best Buy sell opened DVDs as new.

We're not talking handling the outer casing, we're talking about opening the product, removing the contents, letting employees play them/take them home, and still trying to call it new because they haven't sold it before.

There's nothing other than laziness preventing GS or any other chain from putting dummy boxes with copy art on the shelf like they do with flash memory and items of that sort at electronic retailers. Then they don't have to open anything.

90% of people may not see it as a big deal, but that doesn't mean the product is actually new, just that that 90% doesn't mind paying full price for open stock.

[tkusina]

Do you get to call a DVD at Best Buy "used" and get a discount simply because it has been handled on the shelf? No; handling of the outer case does not constitute "using".


Of course not but i've never purchased a DVD from Best Buy or any company which has had the shrinkwrapping removed either. The reason for this is Best Buy does not sell used games because they know that most people define "used" as opened.

Most companies have a term called "open box" and usually it is priced accordingly.

I also think you are being naive in thinking video games have a tiny profit margin. Remember the music companies used to say the same thing about cd's. I believed this until my wife started working at a small music store and found out that $15 cd costs between $5-8.

[TonyTheTiger]

There is one major difference between clothing and video games. Clothing stores have no choice. Their business would be crippled if they didn't do it in such a way. Gamestop chooses to have shelf copies. They could do what Toys R Us does and put mock up boxes on the shelf for people to handle but they choose not to. That's fine. If they want to do it their way then fine. But unlike clothing stores they don't have to do it.

Second, the whole managerial discretion thing is bogus anyway because unlike mom and pop operations, there's no power of negotiation on either end. I worked in a Blockbuster myself and we would wheel and deal sometimes in minor ways but they were just that, minor. There were limits to what any of us could do before a district manager would freak out.

Consider this: There are two used copies of Super Mario Sunshine on the shelf. One looks as pristine as a used game can look. The other has a torn up insert and no manual. Both are priced at...I don't know...$14.99. Can I try to negotiate the busted up copy down to $9.99? I could certainly try but I doubt I'd get very far. And used games is where Gamestop's profit margin is at its highest. Likewise, if I turn in a pristine copy of Mario Sunshine I doubt I can try to get more than someone who's turning in a busted up one. So that's why I say it should be a flat standard because if there's no negotiation on used games why should there be one on shelf copies? In fact, this is to protect managers themselves. You know perfectly well how retail works. Store managers are insects to district and regional managers who are insects to corporate heads. If one store manager "negotiates" to give the 10% off (Hell, I'd even be fine with a 5% standard if it's mandatory) and another store manager never ever does it, who's going to raise the ire of the higher ups? I've seen it myself.

But, you know what? I'll let all this go if there is just one major change: Store employees should not be allowed to check out games, especially not shelf copies.

[FantasiaWHT]

Tony - I agree with a lot of what you've said; my point is that managers SHOULD have more discretion than they do. I think that is the number-one problem with GS/EB right now is that they've turned managers into transmission boxes for upper management. Managers don't make any decisions on their own (except hiring, that's about it). Were I running GS, I'd stop relying on office stiffs to set nationwide selling practices & store layouts and leave it up to the managers to sink or swim.

Tkusina - I've worked more than enough various retail locations that sold video games to know what I'm talking about on profit margins. It's not "tiny" (you're putting words in my mouth) but it's not even comparable to the profit margins on electronic equipment that you usually marked down as floor models.

[Nature Boy]

First, I just wanna say that the original article came off as whiny drivel. I hate the preorder thing as much as the next guy, but it's not going anywhere as long as people continue to participate in it. And as long as suggesting the idea of a preorder works one in 100 times, they're going to continue doing it.

As far as the 'opened' new game deal goes, they totally have lost my business on occastion for that, but in the end it really doesn't matter (to them or me).

I do wonder how much it costs BestBuy in labour to put the games inside those thick plastic cases. It's probably minor compared to an EB employee finding the game in their sleeve system and popping it into the case, but I wonder if EB has ever considered doing it that way. I'd bet the money lost from people walking away with it anyway would make it a moot point for EB.

[Neil Koch]

I do wonder how much it costs BestBuy in labour to put the games inside those thick plastic cases. It's probably minor compared to an EB employee finding the game in their sleeve system and popping it into the case, but I wonder if EB has ever considered doing it that way. I'd bet the money lost from people walking away with it anyway would make it a moot point for EB.

I don't know about BB, but when I worked at the store level at Target, we'd have disabled people come in and put the CDs in the security cases, magnetic tags on high-priced clothing items, etc. They were paid minimum wage, but then the company would get a tax break for providing the jobs, so it was pretty much a wash.

I don't think the BB plastic case system would work for a lot of GS/EB's because of their small size though (they'd take up too much shelf space).

And one thing about the whole "opened as new" policy - you can just ask if they have sealed copies of the game. I've had to resort to the opened ones on a few occasion for more "cult" games like Fire Pro Wrestling, but usually they do actually have sealed copies around. Again, this might be due to my local EB seemingly being the bizarro one.

[zemmix]

In regards to the stickers on the paper inserts, all the Gamestops/EB/Funcolands/Planet X/Babbages in my area (Northern NJ) have adopted it as a company standard.

I stopped by a Gamestop today to peruse the inventory now that I have a PS3 and all of the used PS3 games had the side sticker on the insert itself but the price stickers were still on the front of the dvd box. I flat out refuse to buy any used games with the sticker on the insert itself. It sucks because now my 10% off used games Gamestop card is worthless to me if this is their new policy.

[Rev. Link]

On the very rare occasion I buy anything new from Gamestop, I always ask them for a sealed copy. If they don't have one, I don't buy the game, unless it's something I can't find anywhere else, which is an even more rare occurance.

That right there is the only real thing any of us can do about Gamestop's "shelf copy" policy. There's no point complaining about it, since most people don't care and will continue to shop there anyway. All you can do is not give them your business. I hate the policy of selling open games - games that have been played in the store and taken home by employees - as new. Therefore, I go to Gamestop only as a last resort and always ask for new, sealed games.

If they switched to the plastic shells like Best Buy uses they wouldn't have this problem. They could just put one copy out on the shelf in the shell, like they do now, and keep all the rest, sealed, behind the counter/in the storeroom. Let the employees check out the used games all they want, the new games stay new. Problem solved. Except that there really is no problem now, at least not to Gamestop's eyes. Why should they care that a small segment of their target market doesn't like their practices? They're still making plenty of money without us.

[spoon]

Just a memory I had while reading over the new posts.

Back when GS was Funco, my cousin and I went in looking for Saturn games. Back then they had a demo unit of most if not all current consoles set up for play. They would open up games and put them in the system and lock the packaging inside the display next to the system.

This was our first time playing Panzer Dragoon. Needless to say we decided we wanted it on the spot. It was the only copy left and we were told it was full price. WTF? Since it had "Never been purchased from the store." Even though it had been demoed for about a month straight.

Must've been a sign of things to come.

[smork]

It's not "tiny" (you're putting words in my mouth) but it's not even comparable to the profit margins on electronic equipment that you usually marked down as floor models.

It's been a while, but I used to work at Best Buy in the computer dept. Hardware and high-price items were generally the lowest margin items in the store and often things like printers were sold below cost, profits were made in accessories, warranties, media, etc.

In my store, games/CDs were among the higher margin areas (radar detectors, cell phones, and car stereo were the highest), but your TVs, stereos, desktops -- not so much, and often loss leaders.

They cut the prices on floor models because they have to do so to move them, even if it deepens an already significant loss. I bought a demo model right after I left from my store, it was marked hundreds below actual cost because it wouldn't sell otherwise with all the newer models on the floor.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think it's also not that big of a deal because Gamestop rarely has to sell a shelf copy. I've bought maybe 3 in my entire life. Castlevania Chronicles (PSX), Ar Tonelico (PS2), and I can't remember the third one but I'm sure there was at least one more. They all had in common that they weren't exactly the highest profile games and maybe came in a shipment of 5 or 6 copies at most. I can confirm from memory that at least with Castlevania and Ar Tonelico I got the 10% discount. But also note that I buy a lot of games and a good portion of them are less than huge. You'd think I'd encounter this a little more often but I don't.

What that tells me is that to make a flat 10% discount on shelf copies (of course provided there are no shrinkwrapped copies) won't leave a dent. 10% off of a $60 game is 6 bucks. A $50 game is 5 bucks. How often will a store have to do this? No more than 2 or 3 times a month, I bet. Most of the time a store will get a new shipment before the shelf copy has to go. I'm even willing to go to my local shops and ask how often it happens.

Let's say for argument sake that a busy shop has to sell 10 shelf copies a month. That's more than 2 a week which I think is a high estimate. Let's say they are all $60 games, too, which we all know isn't going to be the case. That means this particular store takes a hit of $60 a month. That's it? Just $60? Now imagine how many people here write off Gamestop completely. I'd think that if the company started enforcing a 10% discount (even a 5% one would be decent) on shelf copies then they would only stand to make money from people who'd shop there more. Clearly selling the shelf copy is a last resort. I don't expect the store to comply if someone asks to specifically buy the shelf copy for the discount if there are shrinkwrapped ones available.

[FantasiaWHT]

How often will a store have to do this? No more than 2 or 3 times a month, I bet. Most of the time a store will get a new shipment before the shelf copy has to go.

Let's say for argument sake that a busy shop has to sell 10 shelf copies a month.

Speaking purely from personal experience, but 5-10 per day was about usual for the store I worked at. You'd be surprised at how many single copies of games the stores have. That's one of the reasons people shop at EB/GS instead of Best Buy, etc. - EB/GS kept a lot more older and less popular games in stock.

Generally, these games were either a) relatively new releases that we just didn't get many copies of, or b) older, out-of-print games.

[Mason P.]

I didn't really have a problem with Gamestop until recently. I bought a couple of new PS2 games from them a few weeks ago, and of course they were covered in stickers. No problem, I thought, I'd just remove them as usual.

Instead of putting the stickers on the plastic case, they actually removed the paper insert and put the sticker DIRECTLY ON IT!!

What could possibly possess them to do something like that!? After some very careful peeling I managed to get the sticker off, but I could have just as easily ripped the paper itself. In the process I managed to get quite a few creases on the insert, which you can still see after I put them back into the case. I'm not nearly as anal as some of you are about case condition, but that was the last straw. I'm never buying from Gamestop again.

Yea that happeded to me twice. I just took out the insert and toot it back to the store and told them i wanted a new insert from one of the games on the floor. Because I shop there alot, they let me do prety much what I want.

When I go get a used game from them they hand me every used disk in the yellow sleeves that they have. I stand at the registar and pick the best one of the lot. When I recently bought Crackdown, I think I went through about 40 disks. You Just have to be nice to the guys and explain that you are a collector. Out of all the stores I have been to, onlu 1 or 2 have given me any crap about requesting mint cases, disks, manuals, or inserts. Hell I even had a manager twice take a new manual out of a new game and give it to me cause the used copy didn't have one.

[zemmix]

Hell I even had a manager twice take a new manual out of a new game and give it to me cause the used copy didn't have one.

Sucks for whoever ended up buying those opened copies as 'new'.

[Rob2600]

Sucks for whoever ended up buying those opened copies as 'new'.

The store manager probably processed those copies as "defective," so GameStop will get reimbursed for them from the publisher.

[TonyTheTiger]

Speaking purely from personal experience, but 5-10 per day was about usual for the store I worked at. You'd be surprised at how many single copies of games the stores have. That's one of the reasons people shop at EB/GS instead of Best Buy, etc. - EB/GS kept a lot more older and less popular games in stock.

Generally, these games were either a) relatively new releases that we just didn't get many copies of, or b) older, out-of-print games.

You're right, actually. My numbers were lower than I thought they'd be. From my own little research experiment I found that the stores in my area (North Jersey) sell maybe a couple a day on average. Less than your highest estimate but maybe between 3 and 6. So let's play with numbers a bit more. Saying 6 a day, all $60 titles. That's about 180 shelf copies sold in a month. I'll be willing to drop the discount to 5%. So that's $3 off each game. $540 a month per Gamestop. That's a bit of cash, sure, but it's still not all doom and gloom either. I think that's still a perfectly reasonable side-effect of having shelf copies (an optional choice by the company). No store is going to end up in the red because of this.

[Rob2600]

You're right, actually. My numbers were lower than I thought they'd be. From my own little research experiment I found that the stores in my area (North Jersey) sell maybe a couple a day on average. Less than your highest estimate but maybe between 3 and 6. So let's play with numbers a bit more. Saying 6 a day, all $60 titles. That's about 180 shelf copies sold in a month. I'll be willing to drop the discount to 5%. So that's $3 off each game. $540 a month per Gamestop. That's a bit of cash, sure, but it's still not all doom and gloom either. I think that's still a perfectly reasonable side-effect of having shelf copies (an optional choice by the company). No store is going to end up in the red because of this.

That would amount to a nearly $6.5 million loss worldwide for GameStop (not that I care). As some have already stated, it could just invest in reusable security cases instead.