RGB Monitors....

[EX-Soldier]

i've been seriously considering buying a rgb monitor to play my saturn, dreamcast, and ps1 games, but i dont even know where to start, is it worth it or should i just game on regular sdtv?

How many of you play on monitors? can u recommend any? im looking for somethin in the mid 20' inch viewable, anything u can suggest would be greatly appreciated

[kedawa]

Have you checked surplus stores? The best RGB monitors I've ever seen (aside from arcade monitors) were used as information displays from airports and bus terminals, and that shit always ends up at surplus stores.
If you can afford it, just get an XRGB2 or XRGB2+.
Any RGB monitor you come across is going to be getting pretty old by now, and old CRTs have all kinds of issues. VGA monitors on the other hand are still widely available and some companies still manufacture them.

[EX-Soldier]

Have you checked surplus stores? The best RGB monitors I've ever seen (aside from arcade monitors) were used as information displays from airports and bus terminals, and that shit always ends up at surplus stores.
If you can afford it, just get an XRGB2 or XRGB2+.
Any RGB monitor you come across is going to be getting pretty old by now, and old CRTs have all kinds of issues. VGA monitors on the other hand are still widely available and some companies still manufacture them.

The thing is, I dont even have the slightest clue as to where to even begin looking for one, i dont know any surplus stores that deal in electronics, and as far as online goes, i've hit a dead end

im not sure what the issue with vga and rgb, which would be best to play my old saturn and ps1 games? possibly even dreamcast and ps2? vga or rgb?

[kedawa]

Dreamcast can output VGA directly but everything else needs an upscan converter, which is what the XRGB units are.
The biggest problem you'll run into other than finding an RGB monitor is getting actual RGB cables. There's probably someone here that can find them for you, though.

Basically, for everything other then Dreamcast, your only options for RGB are as follows:

1.)Console -> RGB cable -> RGB monitor
2.)Console -> RGB cable -> XRGB -> VGA monitor

If you can find a nice cheap RGB monitor that still has plenty of life left in it, then go for it. Most people use 13" commodore 1084 monitors, but there are a few bigger Sony RGB monitors that I've heard good things about. I can't remember the model no.'s off the top of my head though.

[isufje]

If i could afford it, I'd go for a full blown Arcade Monitor.
http://www.massystems.com/RGBMonitor.html
This will definately give you the best picture for the size, but if your like me and can't afford it, buy a cheap RGB compatable monitor. I have two.
The first RGB Monitor I bought was a small 13inch(ish) Atari SC1224 monitor made by goldstar. Those are the monitors that the Atari ST uses. I used that a lot when I first started Hacking RGB out of my consoles. I don't use it very much anymore though...
I decided to go BIG a while ago and bought a Sony PVM-1910 off ebay early this year, 2007. It's wasn't that expensive: $150 with Shipping included. I opened it up the moment i got it go make picture/color adjustments and have never had to open up again since.

Personal, I think RGB is great for all older systems that output 240p. For me this includes my PC Engine, Genesis, Neo Geo, Saturn and PSX. It's makes the picture look great. But newer systems like the Dreamcast and PS2 will give you a noticable blurry picture since they output 480i for most games. You'll notice it mostly from 2D games, 3D games still look good tho.

[Trebuken]

Sony PVM-2530 seems to be the best bang for the buck. The Commodore monitors are good for startrs because of cost, but they are too small. The PVM-2530 is not the best or biggest but i think the best bang for the buck. They weigh a ton (100+ lbs) and shipping costs more than the monitor, but you can likely find one on ebay; I got lucky and found one locally.

The XRGB is tougher to find than the RGB monitor. I have been looking for one. When they rarely appear on ebay they sell for $200. I am not sure it is worth that much to me. There are som similar devices but have never heard of one reccommended for gaming.

The cables are the toughest to find. You wiull probably need them built or modified unless you go the XRGB route which I think you can use the SCART cables which are importable, for the most part.

[CosmicMonkey]

Use a TV. UK/European tellys generally have two Scart sockets, one of which is RGB enabled. Over the years this has filtered down the market so even cheap TVs have RGB Scart. You can get 20"+ 4:3 CRT sets in Asda for rediculously low prices now, starting at around the £80 mark. You'll then be able to use standard RGB Scart cables for your consoles.

If you do go the PC monitor route you're gonna need to hunt down an XRGB2/2+/3. The input on these looks like a Scart, but it's Japanese 21pin RGB. So the easiest thing to do is to buy standard RGB Scart cables for your consoles, and one multi-Scart adapter. You then just need to mod the pinout of the cable going from the multi-Scart block to the XRGB unit.

[kazuo]

XRGB2+ and a VGA monitor is the way to go, dude.

You'll need J-RGB cables (as already noted), or you can build a J-RGB->SCART adapter (theyre the same connector, just pinned different), OR you can re-bridge a bunch of solder points inside the XRGB2+ unit so it will accept and display signals from a SCART cable (check nfggames' website for more info on this).

nfggames/gamesx is a great reference for this stuff. Ask Google.

Hope that helps!

[EX-Soldier]

I been looking for an xrgb+2 or 3 since yesterday to no avail, looking everywhere, as far as rgb monitors go, i managed to find one on ebay but seller is only doing local pick up so im back to square one =(

any sites i can go to order an rgb monitor or one where it will at least point me in the direction of a place that would sell one locally?

[j_factor]

A lot of sites that deal in Amiga stuff have Commodore 1084 monitors in stock. But they're generally overpriced, like in the range of $150. The plus side is that if you get one from a site like that, it's not likely to have any issues (because they test everything). But still, they're generally much more than you would pay for such a monitor elsewhere. If you're interested, check out the Amiga Link Directory (http://www.amiga-news.de/cgi-bin/anwd-db.pl?la=e&letter=&mode=search) and poke around on the sites listed.

There's this other idea I've had, but I've never heard of anyone actually doing. Perhaps somebody can chime in as to the viability of this. Perhaps you can buy an external flicker fixer + scandoubler. These doohickeys were made to convert an RGB signal from an Amiga into VGA, and unlike a lot of generic upscan converters, they generally look great for their purpose. Perhaps with custom cables one could make that work for consoles (as long as they have RGB). They are expensive, but not hard to find at all.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Personally, I don't really don't recommend going the XRGB conversion route. I had an XRGB2 for years when I was in college, but this was because I had very limited space and needed to be able to use my computer monitor as a gaming and movie watching monitor. The picture quality even on the RGB inputs is not nearly as good as a staright RGB picture. I'd say it's not even as good as s-video on a high quality TV. Besides, finding a VGA monitor bigger than 19" for a reasonable price isn't easy anyway.

Getting a TV from Europe like CosmicMonkey suggested would be a great option since most of them spport RGB and also NTSC/PAL. They may not be professional quality like the RGB monitors that were sold over here, but it would be newer and might have other features of modern TVs that you would want. I don't know how easy it would be to find one that's already over here and assuming you could find a retailer in Europe that would ship over here, the shipping cost would have to be insane.

Getting a true RGB monitor is the way to go. Yes, you'll be getting a old CRT tube, but keep in mind that all the large RGB monitors that were sold in the U.S. were for commercial and professional use, so they're very very well made. As long as you can check it out first or get a guarantee that it's in good working order currently, it should stay that way if you treat it well.

In addition to the Sony PVM monitors, there's large RGB monitors available from Mitsubishi in their Megaview line and I've also seen one from Panasonic. The RGB monitor I have is a 27" NEC Multisync and I love it. Just this weekend I finally got around to opening it up to expand the picture so that it take up the entire screen and I also hooked it up to stereo so no I'm in gaming heaven. In fact, I like watching movies on it as much as playing games. Even aside from the RGB ins (and VGA on this particular monitor), these monitors are very high quality, so they'll put out a very nice picture on whatever input you use.

I advise hitting up the thrift stores, which you're probably already doing if you collect old video games, but also keep an eye out for surplus sales at local universities or junior colleges or government auctions. Those are the kinds of places that bought these sorts of RGB monitors and a lot of them are selling they're old RGB monitors off these days since they're getting things like projectors or flat-panel displays now. craigslist is another great source, depending on where you live. eBay is a last resort, but you can definitely get one there if you're willing to spend the money.


...word is bondage...

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Personal, I think RGB is great for all older systems that output 240p. For me this includes my PC Engine, Genesis, Neo Geo, Saturn and PSX. It's makes the picture look great. But newer systems like the Dreamcast and PS2 will give you a noticable blurry picture since they output 480i for most games. You'll notice it mostly from 2D games, 3D games still look good tho.
This really doesn't make sense. 240p is not a real thing, it's some imaginary standard that the modern era has created out of its confusion over all the existing standards. Even if we allow it as a description of the RGB output from an old console, there's abosulutely no difference between the RGB a system like the Genesis puts out and the RGB a Dreamcast puts out. Neither of them is progressive and neither of them is only 240 lines, they're both what we would call 480i, in other words just standard video, though not NTSC color coded.

The confusion comes from the fact that all the consoles you mentioned (though not the Master System or earlier consoles, nor always the Saturn or Playstation) rendered their graphics with 240 lines of resolution, but this refers to the internal rendering at the tilemap level. By the time video comes out of the system it's gone through a video encoder chip which has converted it to either PAL or NTSC resolution. That's all these systems were capable of outputting, it's still PAL or NTSC standard in terms of resolution and refresh rate even if the color is RGB. Old systems weren't like computers or modern consoles that could output at various resolutions directly. Everything goes through the video encoder.

If there's any difference between what the RGB picture from a newer console looks like and the RGB from an older console, they newer should be the sharper one not blurrier. Since the picture is being rendered internally at a higher resolution the edges of pixels would be more defined, while they might be slightly more rounded on an old console. I really don't think there'd be any noticeable difference, though, because of the interlacing. I haven't ever directly compared images from the same game running on the two systems, though, I'll admit.


...word is bondage...

[FantasiaWHT]

Brief diversion here, is it odd that Anthony1 hasn't chimed in yet?

[staxx]

If anyone knows where to buy a UK/Euro CRT TV in the states with Scart capabilities, please let me know. My Phillips CM8833 has died and the only thing that I have that has a Scart input is the Samsung 940MW LCD TV. Older consoles look like crap on the LCD :( I have been trying to find a Scart Female to Component plus audio converter but haven't found one with the audio jacks in the states. Thanks.

[mario2butts]

Personally, I don't really don't recommend going the XRGB conversion route. I had an XRGB2 for years when I was in college, but this was because I had very limited space and needed to be able to use my computer monitor as a gaming and movie watching monitor. The picture quality even on the RGB inputs is not nearly as good as a staright RGB picture. I'd say it's not even as good as s-video on a high quality TV. Besides, finding a VGA monitor bigger than 19" for a reasonable price isn't easy anyway.

Granted, I've never owned a "real" RGB monitor, but the picture I get from my XRGB-3 is far better than S-Video on a good TV to my eyes, and I'm very happy with it. And the versatility of having both low-res and 480p-and-up sources running through the same box to one display is a huge plus in my book. I use it with both a Sony FW900 24" CRT and a DLP projector.

[CosmicMonkey]

If anyone knows where to buy a UK/Euro CRT TV in the states with Scart capabilities, please let me know. My Phillips CM8833 has died and the only thing that I have that has a Scart input is the Samsung 940MW LCD TV. Older consoles look like crap on the LCD :( I have been trying to find a Scart Female to Component plus audio converter but haven't found one with the audio jacks in the states. Thanks.

If you guys in the US want tellys sending over I'll do it, but I'd have to check the shipping cost. Anything around 20-25" 4:3 isn't too heavy, but anything over that size will really starts to weigh a ton.

Right, I've just checked the Royal Mail website and the heaviest you can send seems to be 30Kgs. And that will cost you the princely sum of about 150 of Her Majesty's nicker. Which at the moment is a healthy $300+ just on shipping. Bugger.

Edit: Thinking about it, it's a crazy plan. 'Cos you're also gonna need a 110-240v step-up converter too.

[Soviet Conscript]

Brief diversion here, is it odd that Anthony1 hasn't chimed in yet?

you know what. i was wondering the same exact thing. starting a thread like this on a forum with Anthony is like dangeling a nuclear sub in front of Godzilla.

wonder why he hasn't bitten yet?

as for my RGB gameing i use a sony PVM with a SCART to PVM cable. SNES and playstation looks great on it (except small text) but whenever i hook my Saturn up to it the picture rolls.

[staxx]

If you guys in the US want tellys sending over I'll do it, but I'd have to check the shipping cost. Anything around 20-25" 4:3 isn't too heavy, but anything over that size will really starts to weigh a ton.

Right, I've just checked the Royal Mail website and the heaviest you can send seems to be 30Kgs. And that will cost you the princely sum of about 150 of Her Majesty's nicker. Which at the moment is a healthy $300+ just on shipping. Bugger.

Edit: Thinking about it, it's a crazy plan. 'Cos you're also gonna need a 110-240v step-up converter too.

I already looked into this and know that the shipping is outragious. They do sell TVs that can do both 110V and 240V. If I recall Argos had one and I tried to get a friend in the uk to ship one and he told me that the shipping itself cose twice as much as the TV :( I guess I can try and get my Philips CM8833 fixed by a local TV repairer (cross fingers)

[kazuo]

Granted, I've never owned a "real" RGB monitor, but the picture I get from my XRGB-3 is far better than S-Video on a good TV to my eyes, and I'm very happy with it.

+1. XRGB2+ on a VGA monitor absolutely destroys the consoles running through SVideo on standard TVs.

Sure, the image running directly to a RGB monitor and not through a converter may be marginally better, but to say that RGB through a XRGB on a VGA monitor is not even as good as S-Video on a quality TV is... stretching it, to say the least.

[Ed Oscuro]

... is it worth it or should i just game on regular sdtv?
Hang on. SDTV is a broadcast technology, and you're not connecting those consoles to it. SDTV wouldn't have been available when those consoles were released, as well. It's a step down from HDTV, but a cut above what non-HD houses have right now. You mean plain Jane standard television.

Yay, marketing terminology!

[ccovell]

I have a page which compares RGB with composite (sorry, no S-Video) for several game systems, so it can give you a general idea of the image quality improvement:

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html

And the main RGB page is here:

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html

[Ed Oscuro]

Great page there! Didn't know about the dot-shifting pattern, but it makes sense...ugh, all those old consoles are biased towards RF and RCA style jacks then, right? In the case of s-video capable machines, that's kinda nasty. Makes me want to get a FC Titler some time.

Also, I didn't know Rad Mobile was on the Saturn...or rather, I hadn't played it until a week ago...now I gotta find it.

[Soviet Conscript]

yhea, that is a nice page. you really need a card to do screen captures though cause it makes the shots from the emulator look crushingly good in comparison

[ccovell]

Indeed I do. And as I wrote at the top of the same page...


(and unfortunately, they were just taken with a digital camera pointed at my TV/monitor. This is the best I can manage without a good video capture card. If you like my homepage, why not donate some video equipment to me? :-)

[kedawa]

What's with these insane monitor prices?
I find working 19+ inch VGA monitors on the sidewalk just about every week. Nobody wants CRTs anymore.
And $150 for a 1084? That's absurd. I've never heard of anyone paying more than $25 for one around here (southern Ontario).

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

+1. XRGB2+ on a VGA monitor absolutely destroys the consoles running through SVideo on standard TVs.

Sure, the image running directly to a RGB monitor and not through a converter may be marginally better, but to say that RGB through a XRGB on a VGA monitor is not even as good as S-Video on a quality TV is... stretching it, to say the least.
The problems with using an XRGB in my opinion are mostly down to the limitations of VGA monitors. They are not designed for the same purposes as a regular TV, so if you're trying to use an XRGB+VGA monitor set up like a regular TV, which means sitting further away from it, the screen just isn't satisfactory in my opinion. Because you're meant to sit up very close to a VGA monitor, they have a greatly reduced color intensity and much less image persistance compared to regular television monitors. You can turn up the color temperature on many VGA monitors, but I've never found one that you can adjust to point where it actually looks like a real TV, the colors and especially the whites always seem too flat. Then, the lack of persistance makes movement look different than it should and seems to reveal more of the de-interlacing artifacts than I think a real TV would.

Also, this is just a matter of opinion, I guess, but I really prefer to a nice scanline look when I'm using RGB, but you get none of that on an XRGB, you have to choose between the full linedoubled image (which doesn't look like RGB to my eyes since there's no scanlines at all) or else the virtual scanlines which don't mimic real scanlines very closely (they can't because actually skipping every other line would make the image way way too dark on a VGA monitor).

Lastly, for the cost of an XRGB and a huge VGA monitor (which may not have the smae problems as smaller VGA monitors, I don't know since I've never used one), you're going to be spending way more than what you would on an RGB monitor even off of eBay, so I don't really see the advantage unless you're dealing with limited space anyway.


...word is bondage...

[EX-Soldier]

The problems with using an XRGB in my opinion are mostly down to the limitations of VGA monitors. They are not designed for the same purposes as a regular TV, so if you're trying to use an XRGB+VGA monitor set up like a regular TV, which means sitting further away from it, the screen just isn't satisfactory in my opinion. Because you're meant to sit up very close to a VGA monitor, they have a greatly reduced color intensity and much less image persistance compared to regular television monitors. You can turn up the color temperature on many VGA monitors, but I've never found one that you can adjust to point where it actually looks like a real TV, the colors and especially the whites always seem too flat. Then, the lack of persistance makes movement look different than it should and seems to reveal more of the de-interlacing artifacts than I think a real TV would.

Also, this is just a matter of opinion, I guess, but I really prefer to a nice scanline look when I'm using RGB, but you get none of that on an XRGB, you have to choose between the full linedoubled image (which doesn't look like RGB to my eyes since there's no scanlines at all) or else the virtual scanlines which don't mimic real scanlines very closely (they can't because actually skipping every other line would make the image way way too dark on a VGA monitor).

Lastly, for the cost of an XRGB and a huge VGA monitor (which may not have the smae problems as smaller VGA monitors, I don't know since I've never used one), you're going to be spending way more than what you would on an RGB monitor even off of eBay, so I don't really see the advantage unless you're dealing with limited space anyway.


...word is bondage...

yea i was thinking that same thing, the xrgb alone is gonna run me between 200 to 300 dollars, and then lets say i just felt crazy and wanted to get a 30 inch monitor, thats about 2g's and for that price i might as well just buy a 50 inch hdtv which leads me backkkkkk to square one with older systems looking like shit in hd =(

still lookin day and night for a rgb monitor as i see it being my only recourse but i live in bumfuck florida, theres nothing out here, im gonna hit up a few thrift stores on the weekend and pray i get lucky, as for ordering a tv from the uk, i dont see that as being a possibilty, the shipping alone would come out to double whatever the set would run me so nix that....looks like im fucked =(

[Soviet Conscript]

yea i was thinking that same thing, the xrgb alone is gonna run me between 200 to 300 dollars, and then lets say i just felt crazy and wanted to get a 30 inch monitor, thats about 2g's and for that price i might as well just buy a 50 inch hdtv which leads me backkkkkk to square one with older systems looking like shit in hd =(

still lookin day and night for a rgb monitor as i see it being my only recourse but i live in bumfuck florida, theres nothing out here, im gonna hit up a few thrift stores on the weekend and pray i get lucky, as for ordering a tv from the uk, i dont see that as being a possibilty, the shipping alone would come out to double whatever the set would run me so nix that....looks like im fucked =(

i went through the same thing when i was looking for a RGB PVM. it seems like they were all in california, clear on the other side of the country for me. i kept checking ebay though every week or so and within a few months a nice looking PVM poped up that was only 20 minutes from me for only $75 with a tv tuner and manual. just keep at it and what your looking for will turn up eventually.

[CosmicMonkey]

Has anyone ever used a projector with any of the XRGB units? I can run the Naomi straight into the projector via 31Khz fine. But if I want to use the MVS, CPS2 or the Naomi in lo-res mode I'd need an upscanner.

I assume XRGBs will work perfectly fine with a projector? This way I could get around the size limitations of a monitor and have a nice 60" screen for some Guilty Gear action.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Has anyone ever used a projector with any of the XRGB units? I can run the Naomi straight into the projector via 31Khz fine. But if I want to use the MVS, CPS2 or the Naomi in lo-res mode I'd need an upscanner.

I assume XRGBs will work perfectly fine with a projector? This way I could get around the size limitations of a monitor and have a nice 60" screen for some Guilty Gear action.
Yeah the output from an XRGB (at least the XRGB2) is true VGA, which means 640x480 at 60Hz, just like the Dreamcast, so it should work on anything that accepts VGA. That's with an NTSC input. PAL mode through an XRGB is 800x600 at 50Hz which might not be so standard, I'm not sure.


...word is bondage...

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

still lookin day and night for a rgb monitor as i see it being my only recourse but i live in bumfuck florida, theres nothing out here, im gonna hit up a few thrift stores on the weekend and pray i get lucky, as for ordering a tv from the uk, i dont see that as being a possibilty, the shipping alone would come out to double whatever the set would run me so nix that....looks like im fucked =(
Yeah, I know how you feel. I do live in California, but not the Bay Area or LA area, so I had to look long and hard for an RGB monitor. I hate to say it, but I've actually been wanting one for about 10 years before I finally got an NEC Multisync a couple months ago. I've had a few different 1084s (or clones thereof) over that time and an XRGB-2, but never found a nice large RGB monitor. I can't say I was devoting any great amount of energy to the search, though. Just keeping an eye out at thrift stores and flea markets mostly, and I did see a couple, but they were always either in trashy condition or didn't have quite all the inputs I wanted.

Also, like I said a few posts back, I think right now is a great time to be looking for an RGB monitor because so many of the businesses and institutions that used them are switching over to projectors or flat panel displays for presentations and things now and getting rid of their old RGB monitors.

You'll find one. I see deals even on eBay occassionally that really aren't too bad even with shipping.


...word is bondage...

[mario2butts]

Has anyone ever used a projector with any of the XRGB units? I can run the Naomi straight into the projector via 31Khz fine. But if I want to use the MVS, CPS2 or the Naomi in lo-res mode I'd need an upscanner.

You bet! I use my XRGB-3 with an Infocus SP4805 DLP PJ (native res 854x480) and it's fantastic. My PJ takes a little while compared to my CRT monitor to lock on the signal at times, like when I first turn on a console or if the game switches resolutions or something. Genesis in particular takes a while for the PJ to display, sometimes taking up to 10 seconds after turning on the console before I get an image. No biggie though, if I miss anything important I can just reset the console after the PJ locks onto the video and see everything. I imagine this would vary from PJ to PJ.

Another thing to keep in mind is that only the older, very hard to find XRGB-2 works reliably with arcade PCBs. The XRGB-2+ and XRGB-3 dropped support for some PCBs. I only have consoles so I can't elaborate; there are threads on the SHMUPS forum for the 2+ and 3 that should have more detailed info.

[GaijinPunch]

Neither of them is progressive and neither of them is only 240 lines, they're both what we would call 480i, in other words just standard video, though not NTSC color coded.

This is totally wrong. You know those game w/ scanlines? Those games are in 240p. The ones w/o scanlines? 480i. The MD has very few interlaced games (2 player mode in one of the Sonics). The Dreamcast, of course, has many games that have interlaced only modes (The Capcom fighters, Super Puzzle Bobble, El Dorado Gate, Gigawing, Mars Matrix to name a few) but they also have games that run in native 240p mode (Twinkle Star Sprites, Bangai-o, Black Matrix A/D, etc.)

Back on topic: Get an RGB monitor. You can't simulate low resolution w/ interlaced games. Unfortunately, there are plenty of games like this on the PS2/DC that are worth playing. I had a PVM when I was in America. Now I have a Japanese model Wega CRT which has AV Multi (which is RGB). If you've go the dough, buck up and get a Euro TV. If not, a modded arcade monitor shouldn't cost you all that much, and technically these have the best picture quality possible.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

This is totally wrong. You know those game w/ scanlines? Those games are in 240p. The ones w/o scanlines? 480i. The MD has very few interlaced games (2 player mode in one of the Sonics). The Dreamcast, of course, has many games that have interlaced only modes (The Capcom fighters, Super Puzzle Bobble, El Dorado Gate, Gigawing, Mars Matrix to name a few) but they also have games that run in native 240p mode (Twinkle Star Sprites, Bangai-o, Black Matrix A/D, etc.)
If I sensed any sarcasm here, I would assume this is a joke, but I don't. Are you seriously saying that scanlines are a sign of a progressive signal and an interlaced signal doesn't have scanlines? That's ass-backwards.

Scanlines are an artifact of the interlacing process, so any interlaced (and that's what the i in 480i stands for) image will have scanlines. The only Dreamcast games I know of with no scanlines are any Dreamcast game through a VGA box. VGA is 480p, so it doesn't have scanlines. No progressive image has scanlines since progressive means non-interlaced. And that would go for your theoretical 240p as well. The only 240p signal I know if is if you set your computer's resolution to 320x240. That would be a 240p signal. And it wouldn't have scanlines.

Old video game systems are not like computers and this is what confuses people. They know that systems like the Genesis used a 320x240 resolution because they've played the games in an emulator or read the Wikipedia page and so they assume that the 320x240 resolution of the Genesis is like a 320x240 resolution from their computer. It's not, though. What we call 480i today--or what used to be called simply NTSC--is all the Genesis can put out. It doesn't matter what resolution the graphics are rendered at internally, the output is still NTSC standard, which means 480i.

VHS tapes also carry an image stored with approximately 240 lines of resolution, so is VHS a 240p signal as well? The Master System and Atari 2600 both had resolutions with 192 lines, so were they 192p signals?


...word is bondage...

[GaijinPunch]

If I sensed any sarcasm here, I would assume this is a joke, but I don't. Are you seriously saying that scanlines are a sign of a progressive signal and an interlaced signal doesn't have scanlines? That's ass-backwards.

Uh... that's 100% the truth, dog. You've got the right idea, but you have your terminology 100% ass-flipped. Read this for clarification (http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/)

Scanlines are an artifact of 240 lines being displayed on a display that requires 480. Each odd numbered line (or is it even) is blacked out... and that is a scanline. FLICKERING or SHIMMERING is an artifact of interlacing.

Do a test. Play MAME on a low res RGB monitor. Play a TATE game, but w/ your monitor YOKO'ed. Don't flip the screen inside MAME properties. This will force an interlaced display. Turn on the fake scanlines option... try not to have a seizure. You can do the same thing an XRGB as well. Get a well known interlaced game (For the PS2: Any metal slug, Mushihime-sama, Ibara, Taito Memories ) and turn on the XRGBs fake scanlines. Again, try to avoid the seizure. For those w/ all 4 Cave PS2 releases that are wondering why they can play Dodonpachi DOJ & ESPGaluda in TATE w/ their XRGB but not in Yoko, nor their Ibara or Mushihime-sama in either mode, it's b/c the latter force an interlaced signal, not progressive.


The only Dreamcast games I know of with no scanlines are any Dreamcast game through a VGA box

The games that are not supported through the VGA box are the ones w/ the Scanlines. Gunbird (NTSC-J) for example. Very few (only two that I know of) support both true low res (240p) and VGA box (480p -- line doubled, which looks like shit). Here (http://www.gamengai.com/okiba/tsslowres.jpg) is a picture of TSS running on low res mode. AFAIK, it autodetects, as the first screen after boot is interlaced (no scanlines...but I have no picture now, sorry).


The only 240p signal I know if is if you set your computer's resolution to 320x240. That would be a 240p signal. And it wouldn't have scanlines.

That's b/c your monitor only deals w/ a 31khz signal! It doesn't have scanlines... period. Neither does a 31khz monitor or HDTV. That's why old games look like absolute donkey ass on these displays. You're limiting yourself in your thinking. Don't think computer... think old arcade machine. All those old 15khz games? Basically EVERYTHING up until the mid-90's ran in 240p. Some recent arcade games (Cave's new ones) also run in 240p. A 15khz-only monitor only supports progressive signals of 240 lines... no higher. That's why to get higher resolution you have to interlace (which effectively does away w/ scanlines).


the output is still NTSC standard, which means 480i.

This is wrong. NTSC will output 240p. That picture of TSS above is NTSC my friend. And it's not b/c of RGB standards. S-Video and Composite will also output 240p. I can make the pictures to prove it if you need. I will admit though, w/ composiite it is basically fruitless as the picture is so nasty and blurred anyway. S-Video is perhaps worth the fight though.

Those people that " assume that the 320x240 resolution of the Genesis is like a 320x240 resolution from their computer" are exactly right. What else could it be? The difference is the display. Can a low res (15khz) TV or monitor handle a 320x240 signal? No. So what does it do? It doubles the lines and blacks out every other one, creating scanlines (hence, an artifact as explained before). Doesn't change the fact that the resolution is still 240p. They make graphics cards that force your computer to output 240p (Ultimarc's Arcade VGA). The signal is 15khz though, so you have to have a monitor that it will work with.

Do some studying. There's tons of info out there. This (http://postback.geedorah.com/extra/a_matter_of_visual_precision.htm) will help as well.

[telengard]

i've been seriously considering buying a rgb monitor to play my saturn, dreamcast, and ps1 games, but i dont even know where to start, is it worth it or should i just game on regular sdtv?

How many of you play on monitors? can u recommend any? im looking for somethin in the mid 20' inch viewable, anything u can suggest would be greatly appreciated


I play 16 bit computer games (Atari ST, Amiga, Apple IIGS) on an RGB monitor, I love it. I did have to make special cables for each one to interface w/ the monitor though.

~telengard

[RARusk]

There are some older VGA monitors that can do both progrsssive and interlaced scan. The monitor I have, the NEC MultiSync 3D, is one of those and makes an excellent RGB gaming monitor if you don't mind the small size.

In addition, some, if not most, current projection units can also do 15Khz (interlaced) RGB Analog.

I am also an occasional contributor to the GamesX Wiki site and have written pages on how to obtain RGB for the SNES Jr. unit, how to get RGB off of older PlayStation 2 motherboards, how to get sync from PlayStation 1 motherboards, and making a GameCube RGB cable from the GameCube Component Video Cable.