Jeff Minter pissed off that nobody's buying Space Giraffe

[norkusa]

I dunno, I downloaded the demo and didn't like it. Minter acts like it's the best game on XBLA though:



jesus fucking christ

not seeing a lot of reason to continue even trying to make games, at this point, when a remake of Frogger, one of the worst games in the history of old arcade games, can outsell Space Giraffe that we put so much love and effort into, by more than ten to one, in one week.

OK, we get the message. All you want on that channel is remakes of old, shite arcade games and crap you vaguely remember playing on your Amiga.

We'll shut up trying to do anything new then.

Sorry for even trying.

http://stinkygoat.livejournal.com/

[Damaramu]

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3973/crybabyjpgmidjt7.jpg
(http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crybabyjpgmidjt7.jpg)

[Bojay1997]

Well, it seems kind of hypocritical that a guy who has basically been remaking the same game since Tempest 2000 on the Jaguar is being critical of another remake that happened to outsell his mediocre shooter. I loved Minter's games from the 80s when they were innovative and seemed less drug influenced. Why not do a remake or update of Hover Bovver or one of his other classics or better yet, create an entirely new IP instead of the same psychadelic shooter over and over and over again? I'm sorry, but I'm a shmup fan and a Minter fan, but I felt like I wasted my money when I bought Space Giraffe.

[Kid Ice]

Space Giraffe sucks. With the exception of Tempest 2K (you know, a remake of someone else's game) has Jeff Minter made a better game than Frogger?

[64Bits]

Seriously.....that cheered me up. :D

[Damaramu]

You guys read his newest entry? Jebus.... :roll:




you know what?
I'm not going to be writing about game development here any more after this. Yes, I had a bit of a rant the other night because frankly yes, it is a bit disappointing to see a repackaged MAME rom doing much better than original content, but hey, that's how it goes. People are more inclined to buy stuff they remember rather than stuff that's new.

We're invested in XBLA now, and we *need* to re-use the SG framework for a couple of reasonably quick games - I think that's the way to make it work out for us, we just need more games in the pipeline. I'm already halfway through the next one and I just want to get my head down and get on with it.

To those who came on here to have a go at me and tell me how much I suck - just piss off, I don't care. If you do that I shall delete your comments and ban you. Guess what, I think you suck too, and I don't give a rat's arse if you don't like my games; they aren't made for you anyway.

And thanks to those who gave me a bit of encouragement at a low moment. Rest assured I'm not giving up; I'm just getting on with it quietly.

So no more dev stuff here, from now on this will just be about sheep and plushies and other such non-work-related stuff. There will be no talk, no press, no screenshots and no videos of work in progress except as and when we are ready to release them, at the appropriate time, through the appropriate channels.

[boatofcar]

Jeez, what a tool. I'm not one to diss on someone's appearance, but I had to chuckle while reading that rant an glancing at his wikipedia picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Jeff_Minter_at_Altparty_2003_1.jpg/200px-Jeff_Minter_at_Altparty_2003_1.jpg

Between his rants and that pic, doesn't that evoke every bad game programmer stereotype you know? :)

[norkusa]

Could the reason why Frogger is outselling Space Giraffe by so much is be because they're also including purchases made with those free XLBA codes that are thrown in with accessories and system registration bonuses? If that's the case, no wonder why Frogger is outselling it 10-to-1.

[PapaStu]

I bought it the day it came out, played it some, didn't 'get' it and it is a very much a 'figure it out without being told what to do' kind of game. I made it to like level 12 or so and can't get back even to that point. I've tried to play it in the high scoring way and just end up screwing up even more because I can't see all the bullets and other shit flying at me on the grid.

I've given up on it. Maybe if he brings Tempest 2000 onto XBL it'll sell some, but wait, that'll end up being some 20 year old game thats just a fucking MAME file version of it.

[Sothy]

What a little bitch.

[CartCollector]

Yes, I had a bit of a rant the other night because frankly yes, it is a bit disappointing to see a repackaged MAME rom doing much better than original content, but hey, that's how it goes. People are more inclined to buy stuff they remember rather than stuff that's new.

Um, isn't capitalism all about pleasing the customer? And who really cares if your being outsold? Volume doen't matter nearly as much as profit.

[ProgrammingAce]

i've always kind of liked minter, but space giraffe kinda sucks. The music is repetitive and i can't fucking see what's going on on some of the levels.

The first time i wanted to throw the controller across the room was the last time i turned that game on...

[Daria]

I was too distracted by the big ugly head floating in the middle of the screen. Even if the game had been fun, it was just annoying to look at.

[scooterb23]

I actually downloaded the demo twice, because I was convinced a game couldn't suck as hard as Space Giraffe did.

But I was oh so wrong.

Sothy, you forgot whiny. He's a little whiny bitch.

[Carey85]

Jeff Minter can suck a fart out of my ass. Get a haircut, hippie!

[Kevincal]

You guys are being too harsh... Surely SG isn't THAT bad...

[Snapple]

What a freaking baby. I don't care if Space Giraffe is the best game ever made. If he needs to cry a storm and put down everyone else's games and tell fans that he doesn't care what they think, he just needs to shut up and get a life. Maybe if he's not making game for gamers, that's part of the problem.

I would probably be a little upset too if something I put a lot of work into undersold, but I can still have some dignity. I'm not going to throw a public pity party for my bruised ego.

[killersquirel]

I actually really like Space Giraffe. When I first started to play the game, I played it as if it was tempest and my score wasn't that high. When I started to "get" what I had to do, the game started to become a little more enjoyable.

I can understand a programmer getting pissed that their game isn't selling like hot cakes. I do also agree that he hasn't made any game significantly different from tempest since tempest 2000. His Unity game, had it come out could have showed some different type of game play. We will see what type of game he comes out with next. Hopefully it will be different, and maybe it will introduce people to space giraffe.

-Mike

[s1lence]

You know SG wouldn't have sucked so bad if you could see what the fuck you are doing. You can't tell what you are shooting compared to what the enemy is shooting.

Its a jumbled mess of crap made by a guy that LOOKS like a jumbled mess of crap.

Oh and Frogger on XBLA is not really a mame re-issue, it does have upgraded graphics if you choose to use them. Also you can tell what figure is the frog and what isn't. FU Minter

[TurboGenesis]

I actually really like Space Giraffe. When I first started to play the game, I played it as if it was tempest and my score wasn't that high. When I started to "get" what I had to do, the game started to become a little more enjoyable.


Quote for truth.
I made the same error and play Space Giraffe as Tempest but as I learn the game and "get it" I play it the way it is suppose to be play to realize maximum score. If you learn the game and play for score then the game open up in a whole different way. There is still issue with the graphics effects especially at higher levels but from a game play stand point and as a score em up it is a really game.

Anyone who say that Space Giraffe is just like Tempest is like saying DoDonPachi is just like Batsugun.

It is sad that people are make fun of Jeff Minter -- sure he is throw a rant but when everyone shit on you what do you do? I don't know the bloke until Tempest 2000 and learn about his rich Amiga history from the internets but I never play his older works. It is just like FPS -- if you play one you play them all just like if you play Tempest you play every Minter game :roll:

[XYXZYZ]

This guy seems to be under the impression that "new" or "original" is synonymous with "good". How many times have we seen new/original stuff that just didn't fly? People download the 20 year old MAME ROM he's bitching about because that 20 year old MAME ROM is fun.

[ubersaurus]

Space Giraffe was pretty awesome. Once I "got it" I ended up playing the game for a few hours straight, and getting reasonably far(as well as a number of achievements).

I'm really surprised at all the hate.

[Juganawt]

I can fully understand why he's pissed.

Most people (including a few now-famous reviewers of the game that never made it past level 2 before dishing out their review score) see SG and say "WTF Is this? I don't understand what's going on! Please, I'm so used to being mommycoddled by today's games that I don't WANT to think for myself and figure out what to do like I had to do 20 years ago.".

Naturally, mainstream gamers play it, don't want to spend 10 minutes learning what to do, say it's too hard and it sucks, and then move back to something familiar.

What I can't understand is the people on this forum...the people that really DO like retro gaming, especially ones with a challenging difficulty curve, not because it's "in" right now, but because we grew up with it..

Space Giraffe is a new twist on a classic game, and the pinnacle of visual vs aural gameplay. the whizzy graphics aren't just there to look pretty, the blinding and not being able to see what the hell is going on is part of the game's design. When your sight gets taken away, you have to rely on hearing your way through the game, especially in the last 20 - 30 levels. Playing blind is as big a part of SG as Bull Rushing is...that's why every enemy, every bullet, and every powerup has it's own unique sound effect, to tell you what's going on, even without seeing.

Space Giraffe was fucking genius, and until a week or two ago was the finest title on XBLA by a long shot.

The people who say SG sucks not only don't "get it", but should also be ashamed to call themselves hardcore gamers and should go find a nice, simple, easy mainstream game that guides them by the hand every step of the way.

To cut a long story short? I'm with Killer and Uber. It's a great game, Well worth the 400 point entry fee, and you're all nuts.

I would have happily paid 1200 for it, and I can't wait to see how he reworks Grid Runner ++ for the 360 (which is his next game)

[FantasiaWHT]

Juga, having your own opinion is fine, but nobody's going to give a crap what you say if all you do is insult everybody that disagrees with you.

[heybtbm]

Juga, having your own opinion is fine, but nobody's going to give a crap what you say if all you do is insult everybody that disagrees with you.


Exactly what I was thinking.

[PapaStu]

Space Giraffe was pretty awesome. Once I "got it" I ended up playing the game for a few hours straight, and getting reasonably far(as well as a number of achievements).

I'm really surprised at all the hate.


Teach me in the ways of getting it and maybe i'll change my mind.

[Nebagram]

Can't see what you're doing!?!? I finished level 100 (and did level 64 in one life) on a 14" CRT, what's your excuse? :-/

...But yeah, seriously, Jeff needs to take a chill pill. Not exactly good publicity, bitching about all and sundry.

[BHvrd]

This was good pr for him, imo.

It's basically his way of saying "hey, i'm gonna make a bunch of games that I consider shitty half ass to make up for the loss on Space Giraffe. These aren't games I feel are 100% worthy of my time, but will make me money".

I like his stance on this subject personally, cause to an extent he is right. People just buy stuff with perks and cause they know it, not cause of originality.

Whether Space Giraffe is fun or not I have no idea, but I have seen these same type of things happening on PSN and people have bought "what they know" rather than a new experience that is loads better and supports gaming as an art rather as a cash in.

Just as long as he has a good original product after he recoups some losses with his cash in I won't mind, lol.

[diskoboy]

Seriously, I'm a little surprised at all the hate, too. He's got a point by comparing SG and Frogger. Frogger sucked absoulte balls (and I grew up playing Frogger in the arcade, Atari VCS, and C64, and loved Frogger. But the XBLA version was just plain sloppy.)

And if he cancels development on the XBLA version of Gridrunner++, I'm gonna hold each and every one of you haters accountable.

Usually, it turns out when someone says a game sucks, it turns out they suck at the game

[Terminusvitae]

Jeff Minter can suck a fart out of my ass. Get a haircut, hippie!

Grrrrr!

Not all of us with long hair are hippies, y'know. I, for one, am a misanthrope who resents being taxed and wants to savagely butcher anyone who so much as utters the word "flower" in a context that is not solely limited to discussing colorful weeds. After all, would you ever have called Ted Nugent a "hippie?"

Besides, I'm a metal guitarist. We're kinda expected to have long hair, unless we're yet another cruddy American metalcore act.

[Kid Ice]

Usually, it turns out when someone says a game sucks, it turns out they suck at the game


It seems many Space Giraffe's fans (and its creator) can't accept that some of us (more likely many of us) simply don't like the game. Yes I "understand" it and "get it". No I don't have anything against games that are "original" (which its not). I've played thousands of videogames. This one blows.

[neuropolitique]

Finally. Here is the game that defines hardcore gamers. If you can convince yourself that Space Giraffe is brilliant you are hardcore. If not you are a lowly mainstream, or casual, gamer.

The line is drawn. On which side do you stand!?

[Melf]

The people who say SG sucks not only don't "get it", but should also be ashamed to call themselves hardcore gamers and should go find a nice, simple, easy mainstream game that guides them by the hand every step of the way.

LOL, you're serious? I wasted points on SG, gave it time, learned the gameplay, and just wasn't interested. It's called "difference of opinion," and your reply does nothing to endear anyone to the game. That's Minter's problem too. It's completely absurd that the guy is saying that he doesn't give a shit about people not buying his game in a blog entry that's essentially bitching about people not buying his game.

Not everyone likes what you do. Get over it.


It seems many Space Giraffe's fans (and its creator) can't accept that some of us (more likely many of us) simply don't like the game. Yes I "understand" it and "get it". No I don't have anything against games that are "original" (which its not). I've played thousands of videogames. This one blows.

Exactly. SG is garbage.

[esquire]

This thread is reminiscent of when Lair was released for the PS3 and the developer was complaining that the game was getting low reviews because the reviewers didn't understand the controls, and the publisher had to send out additional promo material on "how the game should be played".


I can fully understand why he's pissed.

Most people (including a few now-famous reviewers of the game that never made it past level 2 before dishing out their review score) see SG and say "WTF Is this? I don't understand what's going on! Please, I'm so used to being mommycoddled by today's games that I don't WANT to think for myself and figure out what to do like I had to do 20 years ago.".

Naturally, mainstream gamers play it, don't want to spend 10 minutes learning what to do, say it's too hard and it sucks, and then move back to something familiar.

. . .

The people who say SG sucks not only don't "get it", but should also be ashamed to call themselves hardcore gamers and should go find a nice, simple, easy mainstream game that guides them by the hand every step of the way.

My only response to that is it's the game developer's responsibility to ensure us gamers "get it". If the developer makes a game that people turn off after the first two levels, whose fault is that? If the game is deemd too difficult for the mainstream, whose fault is that? If he wants to release a "niche" game, fine. But then don't go complaining when the masses reject your game for one that is more fun to play and more identifiable with the general public.

Mainstream game reviewers (I believe OXM gave it a 2.0/10.0) review games for the general public so they be able to make a decision as to whether they might enjoy it and purchase it.

[boatofcar]

Grrrrr!

Not all of us with long hair are hippies, y'know. I, for one, am a misanthrope who resents being taxed and wants to savagely butcher anyone who so much as utters the word "flower" in a context that is not solely limited to discussing colorful weeds. After all, would you ever have called Ted Nugent a "hippie?"

Besides, I'm a metal guitarist. We're kinda expected to have long hair, unless we're yet another cruddy American metalcore act.

You might need to adjust your humor detection settings.

[Terminusvitae]

Heh heh. I _believed_ he was being facetious, which is why I did not explode with righteous fury but rather simmered with self-righteous indignation. ;)

[WiseSalesman]

Please, I'm so used to being mommycoddled by today's games that I don't WANT to think for myself and figure out what to do like I had to do 20 years ago.

The word you're grasping for is mollycoddle (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/mollycoddle), but thanks for playing.

[Juganawt]

Juga, having your own opinion is fine, but nobody's going to give a crap what you say if all you do is insult everybody that disagrees with you.

As I said before, I can fully understand why the mainstream didn't like it, but I can't believe that the majority of people on here not only don't think the game is brilliant, but hate it so much.

I really thought that DP would have been one of the few communities left that would have enjoyed the game due to it's difficulty and it's originality, but obviously not.

Maybe it's because we're all so used to dumbed down games now?

I used to remember sitting with many a game from yesteryear and playing it for weeks and weeks to master it, then finally beat it (if I ever managed to do so). SG brought me back to that style of play. It took me 3 days to beat the standard mode, and I still haven't finished Super Ox Mode yet.

In comparison I plug in a game like COD4, FEAR, or Bioshock, and it's completed on hard mode 6 hours later.

Most games also have a lengthy (and in my opinion often tedious) tutorial mode which pisses me off no end. I don't need a half hour long tutorial telling me to use the control stick to look around, and Yes, I know how to crouch thanks, I looked at the control scheme in the options before playing.

I'm so tired of games wrapping you in cotton wool and preventing the need for you to think of your own accord, and I kinda figured that most people here would have thought the same way. I guess not.

Maybe it's a British thing? It seems a lot of British developed games don't seem to go down very well Stateside (Grand Theft Auto and Tomb Raider are notable exceptions), so perhaps it's the differences of our cultures that prevent a lot of US people from liking SG?

SG has a very warped British style of humour in it - including the awesome Monty Python sound samples embedded in the game...so perhaps that's why it's appeal and charm are lost on a lot of people in the States?

Japanese have their Dating / Rape and Mundane Job sims, and Brits have our Weird, Hardcore , Yak filled Psychedelic shooters.



The word you're grasping for is mollycoddle, but thanks for playing.

Close enough! :D Everyone's allowed a typo now and again, right? :D

[ProgrammingAce]

I "get it", i've played through to level 50 something which i tried 30+ times to beat. The bull rushing is lame when there's an invincable flower in the way and you can't see it because the frame buffer holds a blur for 30 seconds.

I'm colorblind, but i don't think that's why i have so much trouble with this. Compare this to other games, SG just isn't as much fun.
Rez > SG
Lumines > SG
Tempest 2000 > SG
fl0w > SG
Every Day Shooter > SG

Like it or not, these are SG's main competition. And it isn't half as fun as any of them.

.When i can 1cc radiant silvergun and can't even finish this game, something is seriously wrong.

[ubersaurus]

Teach me in the ways of getting it and maybe i'll change my mind.

A lot of it comes down to recognizing each sound something makes, so you don't even have to try and find it. Knowing the best way to tackle each level plays a part, too-a number of them are easier to beat(and score in!) if you just hold down a few columns instead of the whole tube. It's also a terrible idea to stop moving, since it'll drain your bull rushing meter faster, and once that runs out you're in trouble.

[j_factor]

Mainstream game reviewers (I believe OXM gave it a 2.0/10.0) review games for the general public so they be able to make a decision as to whether they might enjoy it and purchase it.

I haven't played Space Giraffe so I won't comment on its quality, but I think this is retarded. If a game has a limited audience, it should be reviewed for that audience. To anyone outside that audience, any rating whatsoever is meaningless anyway. Roger Ebert has never given a thumbs down for a movie having a narrow appeal. The All Music Guide (or whatever) doesn't give an album a low rating because it only appeals to a small audience. Why should game reviewers be different? Gamers aren't one general mass of people, and it's high time game critics recognized that. IMO.

[Terminusvitae]

The All Music Guide (or whatever) doesn't give an album a low rating because it only appeals to a small audience.

*glances sidelong at Days of the New*

I'm not so sure...sometimes, I think the AMG has their collective head stored someplace where it doesn't get any sun...

[zektor]

You know, I have been a fan of Minter for many years....but now he's sounding like a little winestein.

Frogger IS a great game, regardless of whether or not it is "played out", "mamed" or what have you. While I am always one for original content, I can see how someone would choose Frogger (a game many of us grew up with and love) over something called "Space Giraffe".

Is he getting sales on XBLA? Yes? Well, then be f'ing happy with that.

[j_factor]

*glances sidelong at Days of the New*

I'm not so sure...sometimes, I think the AMG has their collective head stored someplace where it doesn't get any sun...

Well yeah, I certainly can't say that their reviews are always spot-on. :p

[Melf]

Frogger IS a great game, regardless of whether or not it is "played out", "mamed" or what have you. While I am always one for original content, I can see how someone would choose Frogger (a game many of us grew up with and love) over something called "Space Giraffe".

He's complaining about the XBLA version of Frogger, which plays like ass and came out over a year ago. His brand-new, original game is getting outsold by it. I can see how that would pidd anyone off, but SG is hardly the second coming.


Is he getting sales on XBLA? Yes? Well, then be f'ing happy with that.

SG isn't selling, which is what made him so mad. Of course, he's expecting people to "get" a game like SG off the short trial version, so...

[boatofcar]

*glances sidelong at Days of the New*

I'm not so sure...sometimes, I think the AMG has their collective head stored someplace where it doesn't get any sun...

True, but compared to the pompous assfest that is Pitchfork Media, they're pretty good.


Man, pompous assfest, I like that. Gotta use it more often :D

[Rob2600]

Would Space Giraffe have sold better if it had been released on the Wii's Virtual Console instead?

[PapaStu]

Would Space Giraffe have sold better if it had been released on the Wii's Virtual Console instead?

Oh god no. It would have done even worse than it is on XBL.

[Griking]

Juga, having your own opinion is fine, but nobody's going to give a crap what you say if all you do is insult everybody that disagrees with you.

<shrug> The guys frustrated and felt the need to vent (on his own blog mind you) give him a break. I've read more and worse temper tantrums on these very forums. That being said even though I've never played any of his games the names that he gives some of them don't particularly scream quality.

[kedawa]

It seems like the only people who enjoy this game are people who treat it like a pissing contest. Most people just don't enjoy it. Maybe that's because the difficulty curve is too steep for novices, maybe it's because the game doesn't explain itself well enough, maybe it's because the presentation is obnoxious and convoluted, who knows?

He shouldn't be surprised by the games poor sales considering it's in a niche genre and it's on XBLA. His attitude about the whole thing just demonstrates how much of a delusional prima dona he's become.
He thinks his games are innovative and new when, in fact, he's been making the same style of game for many years and has been serving the same niche group of gamers all along. If anyone is guilty of just wanting more of the same, it's Jeff Minter's fanbase.

He's completely out of touch with the rest of us, and I don't think he possesses or appreciates the skills necessary to make a game with broad appeal.

[boatofcar]

<shrug> The guys frustrated and felt the need to vent (on his own blog mind you) give him a break. I've read more and worse temper tantrums on these very forums. That being said even though I've never played any of his games the names that he gives some of them don't particularly scream quality.

Sure, he's got the right to say what he wants, but it's a public blog and he's a famous (?) figure in the VG industry--he must have known what he said would generate comment.

[Oobgarm]

My only response to that is it's the game developer's responsibility to ensure us gamers "get it". If the developer makes a game that people turn off after the first two levels, whose fault is that? If the game is deemd too difficult for the mainstream, whose fault is that? If he wants to release a "niche" game, fine. But then don't go complaining when the masses reject your game for one that is more fun to play and more identifiable with the general public.

Esquire wins.

[tom]

I like Amidar

[blissfulnoise]

I like Space Giraffe quite a bit. But I do have to agree with some game-play elements being quite unbalanced due to the presentation (namely the flowers).

Minter can bitch all he wants. Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. For my 800 points, SG serves as that proof.

Best game on XBLA? Not by a long shot; but I think it's pretty rewarding for those willing to put in the time it takes to learn how to play it. Hopefully anyone chiming in on this thread has at least downloaded the demo to see what it's about.

And SG has no relation at all to any of Q?s games or flOw. It's not even that similiar visually. Geometry Wars is probably it's closest cousin on XBLA.

[YoshiM]

Hmm...a spinoff/"reimagining" of a remake of a popular vector game versus a game that helped widen the gaming demographic from the stable of space shooters back in the day that's still popular with the casual/female demographic.

Sorry but Frogger has way more "mass appeal" than SG has or possibly will ever have. It's easy to pick up and play: objectives are clear and there's just the joystick. SG...not so much. Plus it's hard to SEE anything right off the bat. I too played the demo but couldn't play it for more than a couple of time because I started getting a headache.

IMO to get into this game a person really has to "want it". As it stands it's just too niche to really attract the type of gamers Minter is hoping for. I honestly don't think it would have been that popular if it were released back in the day as an arcade machine. If Minter made more "modes" in the game to adjust difficulty( like a "starter" mode that starts off with less psychedelic effects and then ramps up the farther you get) then maybe people might actually buy it. Instead we just get a "here's my vision, play it or screw you" type of situation.

[Joker T]

EDIT:
Wrong thread.

[exit]

Frogger the worst game ever? Hardly, he just sounds like a whining little bitch. There have been plenty of great games that went almost unnoticed and barely made any profit, it's just how business goes.