Old floppy restoration

[cyberfluxor]

Simple question about older games on floppy:

If you get a game from the store and when you read it for the first time to find it corrupt, is it bad practice to format the disk and replace the files from a downloaded copy even though they are the exact files belonging to that disk?


Yeah, I know this sounds a bit wierd to some and to others it may appear in bad taste somehow but I'm currious. Reason be it is I have many games available for free download on various classic computer software websites and I mainly purchased the game for the manuals, maps, walk-throughs, artwork and various other nifty things that came packed in with the bulky boxes. I'd like to restore those disks and keep copies on a network drive as backup for that "just in case" situation.

[Jorpho]

In theory, some old games could have used the layout of files on the disk as a form of copy protection. For instance, I imagine the publisher could have fragmented the files in a very specific way that would not be duplicated if you just copied the files off the drive and back onto another disk. A sector-by-sector copy would be a different matter.

Alternatively, the game might examine the disk's serial number, which is changed when the disk is formatted. However, serial numbers were only introduced in DOS 5, if memory serves, so older games would be okay in that case.

If you don't need them for anything in particular, I would just leave the disks be and enjoy the manuals and maps etc. Perhaps some day you might encounter technology that can be used to restore them properly.

[Pantechnicon]

Sounds to me like a clear case of fair and legal use. You bought the games, meaning you paid for the license, entitling you therefore to a working copy of the program and its components. I can't see a problem - tastefully or legally - with you either making a backup of the original media, or restoring data back to its original location i.e. - purchased commercial disks.

About eleven years ago I bought one of my last PC games ever (Dune 2). It had six floppies and one was corrupted straight out of the box. The store I bought it from refused to help since it was now opened software as well as bought on clearance, and the manufacturer had long since discontinued support. Never got to play the game*. If I would have had the means or the know-how to get a backup copy somewhere online then I would have done so with a perfectly clear conscience.

* - Eventually I bought a copy of Dune 2000, which is the same game as Dune 2 but with improved graphics, sound, controls and FMV cutscenes. So I did play the game, just not off of the original floppies.

[blue lander]

I've done this before with X68000 disks. Since the disks aren't that old (early 90's rather than late 70's or something), it's usually just a matter of the files being corrupt rather than the disk itself being bad. So I just remove the read-only sticker, pop 'em in the 5.25" drive in my PC, and rewrite them with an image I downloaded off the internet.

I could just as easily copy the image to a blank disk, but I guess I just enjoy playing it off the original media.

[JustRob]

I'm going through something like this. Bought a New-Old-Stock copy of Jetfighter II for my dad since it was the first flight sim he ever played and was getting nostalgic for it. (He's been hearing all about my research for a dos box for older games that I've mentioned in my other thread.)

Anyway, the seller had both floppy and CD versions and I got the floppy one for nostalgia-sake. When I got the thing, neither of the two 720k disks were readable in anyway whatsoever. I'm thinking of just finding them on some abandonware site and restoring the disks, since I know these had no copy-protection whatsoever on them.

[Jorpho]

I guess I just enjoy playing it off the original media.

:hmm: O_O

[MrSparkle]

as for the question of specific file layouts a floppy disc imager should be able to perfectly replicate the original layout assuming you have properly made images. id say it would be easier to just keep the discs backed up and write entirely new ones when you want to install because rewriting the data onto the original floppys and then leaving them to sit for a few years is likely going to result in recorrupted floppies. there are several windows based programs you can use to create images of floppies you already have good copies of such as winimage, and floppyimage. a good place to look also would be sourceforge.

[Superman]

A lot of old games are now abandonware. So from an ethical and legal standpoint there shouldn't be a problem with those.

Now you just have to figure out how to copy the files, as there are numerous ways that have been mentioned.

Good Luck!

[Jorpho]

A lot of old games are now abandonware. So from an ethical and legal standpoint there shouldn't be a problem with those.

Actually, abandonware is an entirely meaningless concept from a legal standpoint, however one may feel about it ethically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

[Cornelius]

I got the impression the OP was asking about it more from a collector's perspective. For example, with collectible bronzes or antique furniture, you likely wouldn't want to do any sort of refinishing. For comics, I'd assume taping up a rip would be a big no-no.

Does this sort of thing apply to video games? Certainly I think it would in most cases for the physical items, unless they can be safely cleaned of dirt, etc. But I really doubt think it matters for the actual data on media like floppies, simply because they are so prone to failure (and re-failure). I think at this point floppy games are generally collected for the physical item, not the program (although I'd keep reliable backups as well).

my $.02

[cyberfluxor]

I got the impression the OP was asking about it more from a collector's perspective. For example, with collectible bronzes or antique furniture, you likely wouldn't want to do any sort of refinishing. For comics, I'd assume taping up a rip would be a big no-no.

Does this sort of thing apply to video games? Certainly I think it would in most cases for the physical items, unless they can be safely cleaned of dirt, etc. But I really doubt think it matters for the actual data on media like floppies, simply because they are so prone to failure (and re-failure). I think at this point floppy games are generally collected for the physical item, not the program (although I'd keep reliable backups as well).

my $.02
This is one type of response I was looking for so thank you, but all of the others are also great. As most know a floppy itself is worth near nothing but with everything else included it's value can increase significantly. I have no plans on selling my older PC games as I buy them for three major reasons:
1) Physical copy of an old game. It looks good on a shelf and makes me want to play it rather than just download some random DOS app to waste space. Also someone paid $30+ for the game and there was some reason so I'm interested in what it's about. Also you can hold it in your hands, not digitally with a mouse.
2) Have the manual, maps and so forth to assist in getting through the game. I can't stand searching online forever to find a single dungeon walkthrough or shuffle through some ASCII BBS archives. Also some classics require you to reference something in a booklet to play, I prefer the satisfaction of looking it up in the book rather than look through a Q&A FAQ.
3) Sharing with others information on a particular subject regarding the contents. If someone needs a scan of page X because they're missing it then I could provide it, same with a map outline or supplying guts to the "how to play" situations.

It's just overall more satisfying, kind of like console game compairisons of a digital ROM vs. CIB.

[Flack]

I have run into this problem several times in the past. If I download a copy of the game because the original doesn't work, I'll generally download it to a second floppy and just add that to the box. That way I still have the original disk, plus a working copy.

[Mayhem]

Even better now that (at least in C64 circles) we are backing up disks exactly, so that they can be rewritten and behave precisely how the original was. I've actually restored a couple of original C64 disks this way, using the 100% image.

[cyberfluxor]

Well in regards to having a physical backup copy, a lot of games I play don't check check for a floppy insert so that's not much of a problem. One thing I may do is have the coppies RAR'd up and burned to a CD if it takes up enough space. It's funny how it seems the C64 has a larger croud than IBM games, or at least a stronger community. Sure, I can find DOS games all over the net but few active and chatty boards on the subject.

[Jorpho]

Well, C64 games have been pirated forever, no? A lot of old PC games were published by companies that are still around today and that have a vested interest in keeping control of their intellectual property (and may thus be more prone to shut down sites where such property is openly discussed). At least, that's one way of looking at it.

[cyberfluxor]

Well, C64 games have been pirated forever, no? A lot of old PC games were published by companies that are still around today and that have a vested interest in keeping control of their intellectual property (and may thus be more prone to shut down sites where such property is openly discussed). At least, that's one way of looking at it.
True true. C64's and their games are nearly non-existant in these parts either from their owners holding onto them or being snatched up faster than I find them. I'd like to find an illusive beast one day that works but I'm sure it'll be well over priced or incomplete (ie. lacking cords). Another interesting system would be the A800. I wish there were more classic computing outlets around here.

[Blitzwing256]

alot of older pc games recomended you back them up and play off the backup disk instead of the originals, so that kinda explains it right there, you paid for the data not just the phsycial disk itself. (just you know don't share the disk with someone who didn't pay for it blah blah)

[Kitsune Sniper]

alot of older pc games recomended you back them up and play off the backup disk instead of the originals, so that kinda explains it right there, you paid for the data not just the phsycial disk itself. (just you know don't share the disk with someone who didn't pay for it blah blah)
Some early Sierra titles say that in the manual.

But then the Don't Copy That Floppy guy appeared, and everything went to hell...

[FABombjoy]

A few more things to consider, for better or worse, depending on the platform:

-The image available online might have bugs / errors
-There might be a cracktro/hacktro
-There might be a trainer option
-Physical copy protection might have been removed (no more looking up words in manuals)

[rbudrick]

Download the images, put them on a backup disk to test it and be done with it. Sometimes I speed down the highway and run stop signs. :roll:

All joking aside, bad form or not, you bought the game legally, and you entitled to one working backup copy. So...it's not bad form. Just do it.

-Rob

[MrSparkle]

just incase anyone was confused about the above posters dont copy that floppy reference figured id post a link to the video pretty damned funny the first time you see it. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837609090332617729

[JustRob]

Here's a better version of that video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-Xfqkdh5Js4

[Pete Rittwage]

I do restoration and preservation of C64 originals as a hobby (check out http://c64preservation.com) and we have rescued and verified over 2200 different titles (some on several disks, so thousands and thousands of floppies).

A small percentage of original disks that weren't well taken care of will be bad, mostly because of filth (mold, mildew) that grows on the disk surface or disk jacket, or else the disk got bent over or gouged, etc. Even if you did recopy the disk over top of this, it most likely wouldn't work. The disk is bad because the media has failed, most of the time. It's not usually a magnetic issue, but a physical one.

I would keep the original disk, box, and manual untouched and just play a remastered image of it on the real thing.

[Jorpho]

The disk is bad because the media has failed, most of the time. It's not usually a magnetic issue, but a physical one.

See, I'm thinking that in theory it ought to be possible to make some magical super-sensitive floppy drive capable of reading stuff that normal floppy drives would never be able to (even though it might be slower than heck and weigh twenty pounds due to the necessary shielding, or something). And who knows, maybe such drives might someday be made available to the public at a hideously inflated price.

[blue lander]

Such equipment already exists for people who restore disks professionally. I know a guy who built his own floppy disk controller that allowed him to manually control all aspects of reading a disk. Granted it was for commercial usage and read 8 inch floppies rather than the more common 5.25" and 3.5" ones, but it's the same idea.

[Jorpho]

Well, that's a floppy disk controller, right? Those are indeed readily available to consumers; I read a lot about the Catweasel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CatWeasel), for instance. But if I'm not mistaken, those just plug into a standard floppy drive with the same old read-write heads, motor, etc. as everything else.

[cyberfluxor]

Interesting to say the least. The main reason I'm upset is the Bard's Tale II I picked up had a corrupted 3.5" disk and I'm afrade to try the two 5.25" disks and would prefer to keep them in their current state. I found a ZIP of the floppy disk on a website and it matched the file directory and sizes on my disk so I presume it's good enough. The other issue was because I had this problem I passed up on The Laffer Utilities 4.01 since it's 5 floppy disks, but now I'm thinking about going back for it just for giggles. I usually don't mind picking up floppy games if I can trust the sources conditions, but once again I mainly get the physical copies for the inserts than just the software.