RGB for the SNES

[guitargary75]

Is it really worth going to all the trouble? Does it really look that much better than your average analog tube with an S-video cable? Just wondering before I make the jump into the RGB world.

[Tetsu]

Yes, it is. And yeah, it does. Getting RGB from an SNES requires hacking a cable, building a board with three capacitors to boost the signal, and adding an LM1881N to strip the sync. Getting RGB from a Genesis is much easier: I suggest you start with that first and see if its worth the trouble to you.

[guitargary75]

Thanks for the info. I guess I will try the Genesis first then.

[Princess-Isabela]

it's night and day, quality is awesome.
rgb is the way to go on all oldschool systems.

[Soviet Conscript]

Yes, it is. And yeah, it does. Getting RGB from an SNES requires hacking a cable, building a board with three capacitors to boost the signal, and adding an LM1881N to strip the sync. Getting RGB from a Genesis is much easier: I suggest you start with that first and see if its worth the trouble to you.

hmm?

i thought they output RGB without anything else needed (except a RGB capable monitor or TV) through SCART.

i play my snes on a PVM monitor through a scart > 25 pin adaptor. i honestly didn't see a huge diffrence from S-video. from my experence and what i've read the snes outputs a decent S-video signal. i'm not saying there is no diffrence, cause RGB is noticbly better....i just didn't find it jaw drapping.

i've become slightly fanatical over the past few years about a/v quality so i put in alot of effort and cash to get a RGB setup...but if your just playing casual in my opion the S-video is pretty good from an SNES.

unless of course my monitor completely sucks or it doesn't look so much better cause my cable doesn't have the capacitors you mentioned.

[Trebuken]

I believe the old model SNES only requires a cable hack while the new model requires additional modification.

I feel the SNES RGB is superior, but not as dramatic as other systems, like the Genesis.

[ROTS MKII]

The SNES has an official RGB cable that can be hooked threw a regular RGB output.

The PAL SNES took advantage of this using the Super gun output. It is a jack that appears giant but is small in size.

Yes if your tele does not take an imported SNES. I have to hook it threw RGB then threw Video just to get a clear image.

No since the majority of SNES games while being in RGB format most people use Video.

S-Video is no substitute for RGB.

RGB is the highest anything can go by logic.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Soviet Conscript, is the SCART cable you use with your SNES a Gamecube SCART cable by any chance? Because those already have the capacitors in them.

This whole thing is always confusing because the PAL Gamecube and NTSC SNES output their RGB signal at the sam elevel and so can both use the same RGB cable (with caps on the lines), but the PAL SNES already has the caps built in since RGB was an established format in Europe when it was released, so the PAL SNES SCART cables don't have caps and so won't work with an NTSC SNES (or a PAL Gamecube!).

Then to make matters even worse, whether you need the caps on the RGB lines of a SNES seems to depend on what monitor you're using, in my experience. I never needed them on my 1084s, but I did with the XRGB2 and one multiscan computer monitor that I had briefly. I've never had a PVM monitor, so I don't know how they handle the SNES RGB.

And I'd be surprised if the LM1881N chip is really needed on any monitor. That chip seems to be needed to extract the sync signal from composite video, but in my experience *EVERY* RGB monitor is capable of just using a raw composite video signal as sync. There's bound to be some exceptions, of course, but I think with most monitors you wouldn't need an LM1881N chip at all.

Anyway, I agree that the s-video signal from a SNES is very high quality and there's not a really huge improvement when going RGB on the SNES, so it may not be worth the trouble depending on how much work would be needed. The Genesis is a much bigger improvement, in my opinion; not only because there you're going form composite as your best option to RGB, but also because the video encoder used in the Genesis (especially earlier models) seems poor quality.


...word is bondage...

[Tetsu]

Gamesx.com breaks it down here: http://www.gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

I know from personal experience that an american SNES (oldstyle) needs the caps for each of the color signals. The two monitors I tried this on were a 1084 and a Sony PVM-1910. I was mistaken about the LM1881N however, the SNES does output sync from its connector. Guess I was thinking about the PS1...

[Soviet Conscript]

Soviet Conscript, is the SCART cable you use with your SNES a Gamecube SCART cable by any chance? Because those already have the capacitors in them.


yhea, i beleive it is.

[StealthLurker]

Once you go RGB, you can't go back. But maybe ignorance is bliss because after you get one system on RGB.... you'll want to have them all in RGB.


.

[Cambot]

So then the real question is where to acquire a SCART cable for the SNES, and then how do you adapt that to an RGB cable I can plug into the back of my Bravia.

And what about audio?

[Rob2600]

Pardon my ignorance, but nobody has ever explained this to me:

TVs display video in RGB (not CMYK or LAB). So what's the difference, if any, between a normal TV and an RGB monitor?

Also, if I connect my SNES to my TV via S-video, the video is being displayed in RGB, right? (because TVs display video in RGB)

What's the difference? Why is using an RGB cable supposedly so much better? After reading about RGB on these message boards, I'm trying to learn more about it. Is RGB similar to component, where each color channel is carried over its own separate wire? What's the difference between RGB and component?

[Soviet Conscript]

some people can expalin this ALOT better. but i have to run to work so i'll give you a quick answer.

when you send a siganl from a system to a TV it gets "compressed" and the quality suffers. in RGB there is no screwing with the signal so it looks excellent. S-video is inferior in picture quality to RGB, so is componant but not by much. some people think componant and RGB are the same they are NOT. the signal is still slightly degraded through componant.

heres the connection types from worst to best quality

RF
Composite (RCA, yellow, white)
S-video
Componant (red, green, blue wires)
RGB

most TV's in the US do not have a means to accept RGB, those in Europe do by means of a RGB SCART connector that is popular over there. thats why in the US were uaually forced to use a RGB monitor that has a connection for RGB input and is capable od displaying it.

VGA and RGB are basicly the same quality wise but use a diffrent khz frequency. thats why you can't hook a SNES up to a regular PC monitor.

as i said i wrote that in a rush...i'm sure someone here will explain it better for you.

[Rob2600]

most TV's in the US do not have a means to accept RGB, those in Europe do by means of a RGB SCART connector that is popular over there. thats why in the US were uaually forced to use a RGB monitor that has a connection for RGB input and is capable od displaying it.

VGA and RGB are basicly the same quality wise but use a diffrent khz frequency. thats why you can't hook a SNES up to a regular PC monitor.

Thanks for the explanation. So an RGB monitor is just a normal TV that has an RGB input?

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

What's the difference? Why is using an RGB cable supposedly so much better? After reading about RGB on these message boards, I'm trying to learn more about it. Is RGB similar to component, where each color channel is carried over its own separate wire? What's the difference between RGB and component?
RGB video does indeed have each color carried on its own separate wire plus one more for the sync signal needed to display everything properly (and actually one more for ground and sometimes even one more if you're dealing with separate horizontalk and vertical sync). This is the the ideal way of delivering video between something like a video game console or a computer and a CRT monitor because consoles render their graphics internally using RGB signals and as you said, the TV displays the picture int he same way, so you're getting the signals displayed exactly as they are generated. More or less, of course.

As Soviet Conscript mentioned, VGA is a type of RGB, but it's non-interlaced (progressive) while the RGB output from a console is interlaced.

Component video is actually more similar to s-video than RGB. An s-video cable actually carries separate wires for color and intensity (which includes the sync signal, I believe). Component just takes it one step further by delivering the color on two separate lines and then luminance on the third. The color signals in component are what's known as color difference signals which means that they're mathematically derived from RGB signals in some way that I don't fully understand and then RGB can be reconstructed at the display end using the same formula. DVDs and maybe some other video formats actually store their data in this color difference format, not RGB, so component is the ideal way of sending a signal from a DVD player. It will still need to be converted to RGB at the display, but if the DVD player was outputting RGB, it would be a signal converted from color difference in the player, so there's really no advantage (unless your TV has a crappy RGB seperator, I guess).


...word is bondage...

[Cambot]

So then the real question is where to acquire a SCART cable for the SNES, and then how do you adapt that to an RGB cable I can plug into the back of my Bravia.

And what about audio?

Still a mystery then?

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Do Bravia TVs have 15kHz RGB input? From the Wikipedia article it sounds like they're just standard LCD TVs, most of which don't take RGB I don't think.

If it does do RGB and your SNES is NTSC, then look for a Gamecube SCART cable. Should be very easy to find. SCART cables carry audio as well as video.

Then you'll either want to cut off the SCART end of the cable you buy and splice in plugs that match the RGB input on your Bravia (assuming the input isn't already an SCART plug) and audio. Either that or make an SCART-female-to-whatever-input-you-have-male adpater. There should be details on the pinouts available somewhere if you search Google a bit.

Either that or have someone else build the cable and/or adapter for you.


...word is bondage...

[ccovell]

Once again, I'd like to plug my RGB page. It doesn't give answers about the cables for the SNES (sorry), but it does have some screenshot comparisons for several systems between composite and RGB (sorry, no S-Video).

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html

[Soviet Conscript]

Thanks for the explanation. So an RGB monitor is just a normal TV that has an RGB input?

yhea, usually these monitors were used for displays in hospitals or professional broadcast studios so they usually do not have a TV tuner built into them or speakers (though some do). they also tend to have more display abilities and are usually considered to have good quality display.

the thing is since there was no RGB conector standard in the US the connections are not always the same. my PVM has a 25 pin connector but others have a variaty of diffrent shaped inputs for RGB. so when your useing a video game system on them you need a special cable made.

I still don't know why a RGB standard was never developed here. even Japan had a version of SCART for RGB though i hear it wasn't widely used.

why we had to go through the rf > composite > s-video > componant and still no RGB standard other then VGA mess is a mystery to me. to expensive? lack of consumer careing?

what truely frightens me is that this is the second RGB topic i read in the past few months that Anthony1 has not posted to. i think thats one of the signs of the end of the world.

[FABombjoy]

Couple additions to this thread:

-A TV is really an RGB monitor with a tuner section added

-RGB is probably more common elsewhere because it bypasses broadcast standard incompatibilities

-The RGB signal sent by pre-PSX & Saturn game consoles is indeed a non-interlaced signal, with a few rare exceptions (Sonic 2 on the Genesis uses an interlaced mode).

-Component is more common because DVD players aren't allowed to output analog RGB. An RGB signal cannot easily carry Macrovision or other signal-based copy protection signals. Sony got into some trouble with this and the PS2. Obviously DeCSS has rendered this limitation obsolete, but it was a big deal back then.

[guitargary75]

Does anybody know of a link or a person that has or can make a cable that will hook up my geneis to an RGB? I read somewhere you just need an adapter to hook it in to the rgb cable. Because there is know way in hell I will be able to do it myself.

[Rob2600]

-A TV is really an RGB monitor with a tuner section added

-The RGB signal sent by pre-PSX & Saturn game consoles is indeed a non-interlaced signal, with a few rare exceptions (Sonic 2 on the Genesis uses an interlaced mode).

In that case, are RGB monitors interlaced or progressive? Or are there both types?

How much better would an RGB connection look vs. a component connection? Major or very minor? How about RGB vs. HDMI?

[FABombjoy]

Most RGB monitors, including computer monitors, can display non-interlaced & interlaced signals, provided the signal is within the monitor's displayable frequency ranges.

The difference between RGB & Component comes down to the quality of the circuits that convert RGB->YUV and vise-versa, both in terms of parts & circuit design. Done correctly, they're nearly identical.

HDMI is digital, and should be completely transparent to signal transmission. HDMI is also a balanced signal, so don't buy expensive, gold plated HDMI garbage unless you like making other people's yacht payments.

[MarioMania]

some people can expalin this ALOT better. but i have to run to work so i'll give you a quick answer.

when you send a siganl from a system to a TV it gets "compressed" and the quality suffers. in RGB there is no screwing with the signal so it looks excellent. S-video is inferior in picture quality to RGB, so is componant but not by much. some people think componant and RGB are the same they are NOT. the signal is still slightly degraded through componant.

heres the connection types from worst to best quality

RF
Composite (RCA, yellow, white)
S-video
Componant (red, green, blue wires)
RGB

most TV's in the US do not have a means to accept RGB, those in Europe do by means of a RGB SCART connector that is popular over there. thats why in the US were uaually forced to use a RGB monitor that has a connection for RGB input and is capable od displaying it.

VGA and RGB are basicly the same quality wise but use a diffrent khz frequency. thats why you can't hook a SNES up to a regular PC monitor.

as i said i wrote that in a rush...i'm sure someone here will explain it better for you.

So you're saying RGB is better then Componant

[Rob2600]

Once again, I'd like to plug my RGB page. It doesn't give answers about the cables for the SNES (sorry), but it does have some screenshot comparisons for several systems between composite and RGB (sorry, no S-Video).

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html

Cool page. Thanks for putting that together.

Here is a Sega web page comparing the graphics from RF, composite, S-video, component, and RGB:

http://www.sega-16.com/Seeing%20is%20Believing-%20Video%20Connections%202.php

[Soviet Conscript]

So you're saying RGB is better then Componant

yes, but barely.

[Trebuken]

Once again, I'd like to plug my RGB page. It doesn't give answers about the cables for the SNES (sorry), but it does have some screenshot comparisons for several systems between composite and RGB (sorry, no S-Video).

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html

Is it me or do the emulator screenshots look the best for the most part?

Is it time to ditch the RGB and make controller cables to connect to my PC?

[Rob2600]

Is it me or do the emulator screenshots look the best for the most part?

Is it time to ditch the RGB and make controller cables to connect to my PC?

I agree that playing old games via an emulator on a computer results in the clearest graphics, but I think some people prefer the warm glow of a big CRT TV.

The colors seem to be different too, when using an emulator. Why is that?

[guitargary75]

I agree that emulators look more clear than a RGB or Analog tube. However, it's also like comparing CDs to LPs. CDs sound more clear and crisp, but they lack the warmth of LPs. Emulators are almost too clear and also lack warmth.

[Soviet Conscript]

Is it me or do the emulator screenshots look the best for the most part?

Is it time to ditch the RGB and make controller cables to connect to my PC?

there is also the fact that the pics from the PC are straight screenshots where as the others were taken by a digital camera pointed at the screen. its not really a completely fair Comparison.

there is a reason for the colors being off.....i don't know what it is but i remember it was disccused on these boards under something like "is my pc playing games in RGB?"