Would Super Mario Bros 3 be possible on the 7800?

[Mitch]

Stick the NES on something like RESCUE ON FRACTALUS or with a lot of moving objects and you'll see its own limits.


Even better compare 7800 Ballblazer to the Famicom version. It's not even close, the 7800 version wins easily.

Mitch

[7th lutz]

PacManPlus on Atariage has done a good amount of homebrew Atari 7800.

He said "FailSafe has 255 columns (8 pixels each) of scrolling. It used to scroll in both directions, but I didn't see the point of scrolling the screen backward so I took it out. When you have the 'SpeedUp' power up, it scrolls pretty quickly and smoothly.

The only two limitations I see for porting SMB3 on the 7800 is the number of colors per zone, and horizontal resolution (I would keep it at 160x2 instead of 320A or B mode - strictly for CPU time's sake). But that's it."

PacManPlus said that on http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/155049-could-super-mario-bros-3-have-been-possible-for-the-7800/page__view__findpost__p__1899676 .

[Rob2600]

Even better compare 7800 Ballblazer to the Famicom version. It's not even close, the 7800 version wins easily.

Mitch

You're right, the 7800 version of Ballblazer was much better:

Quick Clips - Atari 7800 - 003 - Ballblazer video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57t83OvRdZM)

NES:

lets play "ball blazer" (NES) video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PymhfyI5SA)


Even the 5200 version was better:

Atari 5200 Ballblazer video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXX_g7Au-5w)


It's a moot point for me though because I don't ever plan on playing any version of Ballblazer. It's just not my kind of game. It's a nice tech demo though.

[Steve W]

You're right, the 7800 version of Ballblazer was much better:

Quick Clips - Atari 7800 - 003 - Ballblazer video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57t83OvRdZM)

NES:

lets play "ball blazer" (NES) video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PymhfyI5SA)


Even the 5200 version was better:

Atari 5200 Ballblazer video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXX_g7Au-5w)


It's a moot point for me though because I don't ever plan on playing any version of Ballblazer. It's just not my kind of game. It's a nice tech demo though.
Wow, even the incomplete Atari 2600 version of Ballblazer looks smoother than the NES version. Dang, didn't expect that.

[Rob2600]

I just watched this YouTube user's series of 7800 game videos:

Atari 7800 Quick Clips playlist (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=245A2E26D7B04914)

My friends and I never had or played a 7800 growing up and I've only played it briefly as an adult, so my observations are based on the videos I linked to above and a couple others.

1. I don't know why people claim the 7800 handles scrolling poorly. Choplifter!, Commando, Dark Chambers, Desert Falcon, Ninja Golf, and Xevious seem to scroll perfectly fine. Am I missing something?

2. Some 7800 games look good, on par with (or fairly close to) early NES games: Asteroids, Commando, Desert Falcon, Donkey Kong, Mario Bros., Ninja Golf, Pole Position II, and Xevious. Dark Chambers and Scrapyard Dog look decent, but have that low-res/stretched-out/blocky 7800 and C64 look to them that I can't stand.

3. Ballblazer and Xenophobe actually look better than the NES versions. Title Match Pro Wrestling looks better than many NES wrestling games...in still shots. In motion, the animation is almost non-existent and the game itself is one of the worst. The background and sprites are impressive though.

4. Some games look acceptable, but fairly outdated, as if they were ported from the 5200 or ColecoVision: Centipede, Crack'ed, Crossbow, Dig Dug, Donkey Kong Junior, Double Dragon, Food Fight, Galaga, Hat Trick, Impossible Mission, Joust, Ms. Pac-Man, and Robotron: 2084. I'm not saying these games could've been done on those old consoles, but they have that old, outdated, low-res and/or low-color look to them.

5. Some games look downright horrible, like One-on-One Basketball and RealSports Baseball.

6. A few games I've seen, like Asteroids, Commando, Desert Falcon, and Xevious, don't have that 7800/C64 low-res, wide-pixel look to them. If more 7800 games looked like these, I'd be more impressed with the console overall.

7. The music and sound effects in almost every 7800 game are obnoxious and grating. If I had owned a 7800 growing up, my parents would've definitely forced me to keep the TV muted during game sessions.


So, would Super Mario Bros. 3 be possible on the 7800? I don't know, but I'm inclined to say no. However, based on games like Ballblazer, Commando, Desert Falcon, Ninja Golf, Xenophobe, and Xevious, I think the 7800 would've been able to handle respectable ports of some second or third generation (1986-1988) NES games, if Atari had put much more research, development, money, and support into the 7800. With some extra chips in each cartridge (like many NES games), I think the 7800 could've seen fairly respectable versions of third-party titles like Rush 'n Attack, Contra, Mega Man, Legendary Wings, Gun.Smoke, Ring King, etc. (assuming Nintendo didn't have exclusive deals with those third-parties).

It seems like the 7800 had a good amount of untapped potential...but maybe not quite enough to pull off those later, more advanced NES games like SMB 3, TMNT II and III, Track & Field II, and Castlevania III.

[Ed Oscuro]

Ballblazer on the NES just seems to be badly done (that, or the NES likes working with sprite objects much more than arbitrary lines). Anybody remember 3D Worldrunner / Tobidase Daisakusen, and its sequel JJ? There's even some scaling in that one if I remember. But the main thing is that there's no reason for the game to be so jerky from side to side. Another possibility was that perhaps the NES hardware isn't normally suited to having two graphical planes moving independently of each other, but that doesn't seem to wash wash; Metal Storm and other games have parallax with actual textured backgrounds. This game's playfield might make it more complicated to render than the usual one-way scrolling of a two-lane arcade racer's highway, but still...man that's slow.

Xenophobe looking better on the 7800 is no surprise either considering that it's essentially a single-screen game that in its original arcade version had a deeper color palette and very detailed artwork - here the extra colors of the 7800 helps make the various gameplay items and the background stand out. It loses most of that detail in both of the console versions, but early Sunsoft's graphical "overhaul" of the NES version didn't help out any. Both ports are lousy games. The original isn't the greatest either.

[DracIsBack]

I just watched this YouTube user's series of 7800 game videos:

Atari 7800 Quick Clips playlist (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=245A2E26D7B04914)


[QUOTE]1. I don't know why people claim the 7800 handles scrolling poorly. Choplifter!, Commando, Dark Chambers, Desert Falcon, Ninja Golf, and Xevious seem to scroll perfectly fine. Am I missing something?

I think the question is whether it can scroll as smoothly as competitors when there's a detailed tiled background, lots of colors, high resolution and a lot of moving objects, given that its focus is on moving objects and not on tiles.

Not the same thing as - say - the Colecovision - where it lacks hardware assisted scrolling.

But I think some interpret the 7800 as being "unable to scroll".


Title Match Pro Wrestling looks better than many NES wrestling games...in still shots. In motion, the animation is almost non-existent and the game itself is one of the worst. The background and sprites are impressive though.

It's a pretty awful game, IMO.


4. Some games look acceptable, but fairly outdated, as if they were ported from the 5200 or ColecoVision: Centipede, Crack'ed, Crossbow, Dig Dug, Donkey Kong Junior, Double Dragon, Food Fight, Galaga, Hat Trick, Impossible Mission, Joust, Ms. Pac-Man, and Robotron: 2084.

Centipede, Dig Dug, Galaga, Joust, Ms Pac-Man and Robotron were from the original 1984 lineup.

Double Dragon is what I call a "C+" effort. It's fun, but it's got a lot of flaws too. The graphics (especially the characters) suck in spots. It does get better looking as the game goes on, but I always hope a homebrewer will go back and do it right.

Crack'ed looks ok in the underwater level but is also a pretty poor game, I think. It was meant for a mouse.


6. A few games I've seen, like Asteroids, Commando, Desert Falcon, and Xevious, don't have that 7800/C64 low-res, wide-pixel look to them. If more 7800 games looked like these, I'd be more impressed with the console overall.

Some games are better than others. Examples below



7. The music and sound effects in almost every 7800 game are obnoxious and grating. If I had owned a 7800 growing up, my parents would've definitely forced me to keep the TV muted during game sessions.

I wouldn't say "almost every" but a lot of them. The sound chip is weak. And to be honest, I think programmers didn't do a good job with the hardware here either. There are many 2600 games with better sound using the stock TIA, IMO.

[Rob2600]

Basketbrawl, like Title Match Pro Wrestling and Fight Night, is one of those 7800 games that looks good in still shots, but is horrible in motion. Maybe if the sprites were smaller and a bit less detailed, Basketbrawl would've been smoother and more playable.

[DracIsBack]

Basketbrawl, like Title Match Pro Wrestling and Fight Night, is one of those 7800 games that looks good in still shots, but is horrible in motion.


Not sure I agree there ...

[Greg2600]

Quite a number of 7800 games look better than they play. Especially with the native 7800 joystick, which is horrible for many of the games. I never got around to getting one of the homebrewed D-pads though. I've always found the lack of colors, and blotchy characters on many 7800 games. NES/SMS much better in those regards. Sound is not even close, the 7800 sound stinks.

On the topic, SMB3 possible? I think if someone wanted to, back then, they could have, but it would have required additional hardware in the game cartridge probably. I mean, that's what they did on the NES.

Should someone try porting it? Good grief I hope not, the amount of effort would be absurd. Frankly, I say why not try and prove Super Mario Brothers 1 is possible on the 7800?

[jb143]

Should someone try porting it? Good grief I hope not, the amount of effort would be absurd. Frankly, I say why not try and prove Super Mario Brothers 1 is possible on the 7800?

They did for the gameboy so it should be possible. The gameboy has hardware scolling capabilities though, I've never really looked much into the 7800 hardware, everyone seems to have their own opinoins on the matter and very little by the way of facts.

[PacManPlus]

This:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-1787-125955226361_thumb.png

http://www.atariage.com/forums/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-1787-125955226815_thumb.png

vs. this:

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/en/a/ac/SMB3-gameplay.gif

http://www.bowsershrine.com/Images/Media/Screenshots/smb3_bowser.jpg

The 7800's scrolling capabilities may be fine, but it obviously needs to be able to do more than just that.

This is nowhere near a fair comparison regarding graphics, as I was trying to come close to the 5200 version of Countermeasure, graphics-wise. I was *not* pushing the system in that department.

Using GrovyBee's Apple Snaffle is a better indicator in that area.

Bob

[Ed Oscuro]

[five screenshots]
I'm intrigued. What are the first three games? Double Dragon, something that looks like Platoon, something that looks like what I always thought Guardians of the 'Hood would?

[Mitch]

I'm intrigued. What are the first three games? Double Dragon, something that looks like Platoon, something that looks like what I always thought Guardians of the 'Hood would?

The first two are Double Dragon the third is Basketbrawl.

Mitch