Could the Nes produce a Golden Axe like the SMS produced?

[8bitdude]

Not trying to start no war or nothing and I know Sega would not release a game to the Nes back then but

do you guys think the Nes could handle Golden Axe like the SMS did. We know its not as good as the Genesis version, but for a 8 bit system it was very impressive.

So was the Nes capable.

I would say yes, but it would be dull looking and probably the characters would be very small compared to the SMS size characters.

What you guys say?

[7th lutz]

I think it is possible. I am saying only due to the chip Kirby's Adventure used. The chip in Kirby's adventure is more advanced the chip in Super Mario 3. The chip Kirby's Adventure used is the MMC5.

Here is the info about the MMC5 chip: The MMC5 improved the battery backup feature so you wouldent have to push reset when you turn off the NES to prevent data loss. The chip also allows greater color deffinition and partial screen scrolling (not locked like SMB3). It
is also a customized mathematics module that took much strain off the CPU and took care of many tasks like the internal clock, and other repetitive functions.

The MMC5 also aloowed a vertical split screen scroll which means you can have a side bar of information while the scrolling action of the game continues. The chip has a memory capacity of 8 Megs (1,048,576 bits). Another MMC5 game, and probably the only one, is
Kirby's Adventure. A few games which this chip had a maximum game page size of 64x16kb.

I got that info from MNielsen nes faq with me finding from http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/916386/2946

The sms might have done a little bit better job of the game if they used the same size of sms carts as Brazil did later on with the carts being Megs.

The game would've been more truer to the arcade game by having all the characters with the game being that big.

The nes might've been even better then the sms version is right now if they used the MMC5 chip or create a MMC6 chip.

[tomaitheous]

Not trying to start no war or nothing and I know Sega would not release a game to the Nes back then but

do you guys think the Nes could handle Golden Axe like the SMS did. We know its not as good as the Genesis version, but for a 8 bit system it was very impressive.

So was the Nes capable.

I would say yes, but it would be dull looking and probably the characters would be very small compared to the SMS size characters.

What you guys say?


It couldn't make an exact copy, no. The SMS two 16 color sub palettes that either 8x8 tiles or sprites could use. The NES had four 3 color palettes for a single sprite and four 3color +1BG color for tiles, for a 16x16 tile area. Even with the MMC5 chip that allow the BG tiles of 8x8 to access one of four 3+1 color palettes, it couldn't retain the detail the SMS system had/has.

So it's not just that the SMS could push 32 colors on screen, but that the SMS could use more colors per sprite and tile than the NES.

[Leo_A]

This board is starting to remind me of many naval history message boards I've seen where people ask useless questions constantly like what if the US Navy had Corsairs at Pearl Harbor or what would've happened if the HMS Dreadnought had survived the prewar years and encountered the IJN Yamato during WWII...

Hope this isn't a trend.

[bangtango]

You could count on a ton of slowdown and flicker. I know that much.

The hardest things to reproduce on the NES would probably be the magic spells and the beasts you ride on. Just my completely uninformed guess (as a lot of my guesses are).

[TurboGenesis]

What is Golden Axe "Mega" cart size?

Sega Master System cartridge was 4 Mega max in those days so NES is capable to handle it -- but how good now?

How are the NES version of:
Fantasy Zone
After Burner
Alien Syndrome
Shinobi
?

[j_factor]

Not sure about the others, but the NES version of Shinobi is crap. Much worse than the SMS version.

[8bitdude]

All them games were better on the SMS, but hey they were supposed to be they were produced by Sega.

But most games on both systems were better on the Master System

and back to Golden Axe, i felt also that the Nes could probably pull it but it wouldn't be as detailed and the gameplay would be slow and there would be much more flicker also.

When I was younger and used to play the Nes at a friends house I always used to feel that the games looked washed out, due to the Nes's low color palete.

[theoakwoody]

I think TMNT II & III had rather large character sprites and good color.

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/original/1157325536-00.png

http://www.digitpress.com/dpsightz/segamaster/goldenaxe_2.gif

[boatofcar]

This board is starting to remind me of many naval history message boards I've seen where people ask useless questions constantly like what if the US Navy had Corsairs at Pearl Harbor or what would've happened if the HMS Dreadnought had survived the prewar years and encountered the IJN Yamato during WWII...

Hope this isn't a trend.


Um, without stuff like this, the classic gaming forum would be a pretty boring place. It's not a new trend. There's been questions like this since the beginning of this board.

[Ed Oscuro]

This board is starting to remind me of many naval history message boards I've seen where people ask useless questions constantly like what if the US Navy had Corsairs at Pearl Harbor or what would've happened if the HMS Dreadnought had survived the prewar years and encountered the IJN Yamato during WWII...
Classic. Too bad this message is wasted on yet another one of these threads. We should take this post and put it somewhere special.

By the way, I can definitely see that sort of thing happening on a naval history message board. Or a Civil War message board. Or...well, anything-board.


Hope this isn't a trend.
It's been like this as long as I'm around. You do get some interesting technical posts out of it, though, like 7th Lutz's post, and besides, there's always people coming into the hobby who just MUST know the answers to such questions.

So, moving on...

My opinion? With expansion chips, anything is possible (except for the graphics). That said, Golden Axe Warrior was playing catch-up to LoZ, and that's what ultimately mattered.

[InsaneDavid]

Not sure about the others, but the NES version of Shinobi is crap. Much worse than the SMS version.

Remember, it wasn't developed inhouse nor were the other games mentioned. No way Sega games would be allowed to "legally" be developed for the NES under the rule of Nintendo. Same thing with the US NES version of Fantasy Zone, the Famicom release was a different and while it didn't look as nice as the SMS version it played just as well. After Burner wasn't bad at all though.

I've reviewed all the Tengen NES arcade ports (and a few of them were Sega games) against their original arcade counterparts over at Retrogaming Times Monthly over the years.

[Graham Mitchell]

Remember, it wasn't developed inhouse nor were the other games mentioned. No way Sega games would be allowed to "legally" be developed for the NES under the rule of Nintendo. Same thing with the US NES version of Fantasy Zone, the Famicom release was a different and while it didn't look as nice as the SMS version it played just as well. After Burner wasn't bad at all though.

I've reviewed all the Tengen NES arcade ports (and a few of them were Sega games) against their original arcade counterparts over at Retrogaming Times Monthly over the years.

You know, it's been a long time since I've compared the 2 versions of After Burner really closely, but I do remember being very disappointed by SMS After Burner basically due to the choppy framerate (which plagues most SMS arcade ports, really) yet being impressed by the Tengen NES version. I think NES After Burner may be BETTER than the SMS version, in fact. I certainly played the NES version a lot more.

[boatofcar]

Not trying to start no war or nothing and I know Sega would not release a game to the Nes back then but



I'm not usually a grammar nazi but you've managed to concoct the rare and exotic quad negative sentence. Very impressive.

[xaer0knight]

Remember, it wasn't developed inhouse nor were the other games mentioned. No way Sega games would be allowed to "legally" be developed for the NES under the rule of Nintendo. Same thing with the US NES version of Fantasy Zone, the Famicom release was a different and while it didn't look as nice as the SMS version it played just as well. After Burner wasn't bad at all though.

I've reviewed all the Tengen NES arcade ports (and a few of them were Sega games) against their original arcade counterparts over at Retrogaming Times Monthly over the years.

I just say that Shinobi for the NES did suck. It's like some crazy company bought rights for it and released a crap Shinobi on the NES.

(Atari owned) Tengen did make some great Arcade ports.. I think that they would be the only ones that could of pulled off something like Golden Axe for NES.

[Rob2600]

Not sure about the others, but the NES version of Shinobi is crap. Much worse than the SMS version.

The Sega Master System version of Shinobi (Sega) looked much better than the NES version (Tengen) is still shots, but the NES version scrolled more smoothly and felt more robust.

Shinobi for the NES was actually pretty decent, but the boss battle graphics were watered down.


I think TMNT II & III had rather large character sprites and good color.

Yes. Look at NES games like TMNT II: The Arcade Game, Track & Field II, Double Dragon II, and Batman: Return of the Joker. Games like that feature large sprites and great, detailed graphics overall.

[boatofcar]

Yes. Look at NES games like TMNT II: The Arcade Game, Track & Field II, Double Dragon II, and Batman: Return of the Joker. Games like that feature large sprites and great, detailed graphics overall.

According to the Retronauts podcast, TMNT II also used a special chip, mostly for the iron balls that bounced down the stairs in the first level. If you go back and look at them, that animation in itself darn impressive for a NES game, and it's not hard to see why a special chip would be required.

[Rob2600]

According to the Retronauts podcast, TMNT II also used a special chip, mostly for the iron balls that bounced down the stairs in the first level. If you go back and look at them, that animation in itself darn impressive for a NES game, and it's not hard to see why a special chip would be required.

Of course TMNT II used a special chip. Almost every NES game did.

Check out this page:

The Games That Pushed The Limits Of The NES (http://www.racketboy.com/retro/nintendo/nes/2007/12/best-nes-graphics-sound.html)

[boatofcar]

Of course TMNT II used a special chip. Almost every NES game did.

Check out this page:

The Games That Pushed The Limits Of The NES (http://www.racketboy.com/retro/nintendo/nes/2007/12/best-nes-graphics-sound.html)

Um, the page doesn't even mention TMNT II. In fact, it doesn't even mention that SMB 3 used a special chip.

[tomaitheous]

TMNT 2 didn't use a special chip, it used an MMC3 chip. That's a pretty standard later gen mapper. It was used in SMB2 and SMB3 and a lot of other games. These mappers don't add increased sprites or sprite sizes. They increase the amount of video ram/rom available by swapping out portions of VRAM or VROM as it was mostly used. The NES was designed around having the video memory as part of the cartridge. That's why on an NES cart, you have PRG-ROM(program rom) and CHR-ROM(character rom). Mappers aren't new, 8bit CPU systems have been using mappers for years and years before the NES even came out.

[Rob2600]

Um, the page doesn't even mention TMNT II. In fact, it doesn't even mention that SMB 3 used a special chip.

I know. I just meant that it was an interesting, albeit uninformed, article about impressive-looking NES games.


TMNT 2 didn't use a special chip, it used an MMC3 chip. That's a pretty standard later gen mapper.

Yes, you're right. The chips are called MMCs. I think it's okay to call them "special chips" though.

For more information about MMCs in NES games:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Memory_Controller

http://emu-docs.org/NES/Mappers/nesmapper.txt

[XYXZYZ]

If a good company was behind it, an NES Golden Axe wouldn't look half as good as the Master System port, but they'd redesign it into a great game on it's own to make up for the lack of power needed to do a faithful port of the arcade game.

Anything would be better than that garbage on the PC Engine.

[ROTS MKII]

yes maybe the NES did have the capability to have better sounds and graphics threw the cart interface.

[tom]

Sega could have pulled it of if they weren't so silly with cross-licensing in those days

[Rob2600]

an NES Golden Axe wouldn't look half as good as the Master System port

I just watched two videos of Golden Axe for the Sega Master System on YouTube:

Golden Axe - Level 1 (Sega Master System) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWwNauNaN1U)

Golden Axe - Level 2 (Sega Master System) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPGSSkW7zYU)


What is so great about the graphics? The characters look good standing still, but the animation is choppy and the backgrounds are pretty simple and bland, not to mention they disappear entirely during special attacks. (The music is horrid, too.) Overall, Golden Axe looks okay, but games like Sword Master, TMNT II: The Arcade Game, Contra, and Joe & Mac for the NES look just as good, if not better:

Sword Master playthrough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM5jhZ9JTJk)

TMNT II: The Arcade Game - NES Gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24nGCZzrfpM)

Contra (NES) - Part 1 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWMyoNhGHbk)

Joe & Mac NES (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Lf8-dz6vY&feature=related)

[tomaitheous]

What is so great about the graphics?


Well for one, those aren't sprites in the game. They're dynamic tiles. That's pretty damn impressive for a system that has no hardware assist for uploading new tiles and two, it still pushes more colors per sprite/tile than the NES can do. You can't do this trick on the NES because of the 3color+1BG color limit per tile on the NES. They did this because if they used sprites, you can only have 64 pixels in a horizontal row per line, before the rest of the sprites on that line disappear. 64 pixels is 1/4 the screen width and the system counts the pixels underneath the overlapping sprites too, in the 64 pixel limit.


Overall, Golden Axe looks okay, but games like Sword Master, TMNT II: The Arcade Game, and Contra for the NES look just as good, if not better


And those games are designed around limitations, giving you the impression that the system could do those effects any where/way without limitation. Those games are great because the hide the limitations of the system, not to mention the production value of those games. That's what made NES so great, the production value and level of quality of its games.

In other words, just because the system looks like it can handle something similar or some other impressive looking game, doesn't mean it can handle X game. Take for instance Sword Master first leve as just one examplel. Those mountains behind the trees looks like the NES can handle *basic* multiple plane backgrounds. It can't though. Those mountains are animated tiles that fit neatly between the 1 tile wide trees and 2 tile wide trees. Notice none of the broken branches of the trees overlay the mountains? And because animating tiles take up alot of space, as well as tile slots (only 256 tiles in VRAM/VROM at one time), the pattern is small and repetitive.


I think it's okay to call them "special chips" though.
Why? I mean, what makes them special in comparison to a normal/standard mapper chip? MMC5, now that's a special chip ;)

[Rob2600]

Well for one, those aren't sprites in the game. They're dynamic tiles. That's pretty damn impressive for a system that has no hardware assist for uploading new tiles and two, it still pushes more colors per sprite/tile than the NES can do.

As I wrote in my previous post, the characters in Golden Axe look good standing still, but in motion, the animation and scrolling are choppy. The backgrounds are pretty simple and bland too, not to mention they disappear entirely during special attacks. In well-produced NES games, such as Contra, Mega Man II, and Joe & Mac, the backgrounds are more detailed and the games scroll more smoothly than in well-produced Sega Master System games, such as Golden Axe and Shinobi.


And those games are designed around limitations, giving you the impression that the system could do those effects any where/way without limitation. ... Take for instance Sword Master first level as just one example. Those mountains behind the trees looks like the NES can handle *basic* multiple plane backgrounds. It can't though. Those mountains are animated tiles that fit neatly between the 1 tile wide trees and 2 tile wide trees.

Who cares how it's done? As long as the games look great, that's what counts.

[tomaitheous]

As I wrote in my previous post, the characters in Golden Axe look good standing still, but in motion, the animation and scrolling are choppy.

Yeah, a draw back from using that trick. Still impressive though.



The backgrounds are pretty simple and bland too, not to mention they disappear entirely during special attacks. In well-produced NES games, such as Contra, Mega Man II, and Joe & Mac, the backgrounds are more detailed and the games scroll more smoothly than in well-produced Sega Master System games, such as Golden Axe and Shinobi.

The background would be just as bland (if not more so or generic), but neither system could display the magic effects without removing the BG at the same time.

The SMS can scroll just as smooth as the NES and also doesn't have the same horizontal+vertical scrolling issue that the NES has. Any detailed background the NES can do, the SMS can do better with more color. A lot of the early SMS titles weren't so impressive, but take a look at the library and you'll see some amazing titles/work. Here's some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7gAjwMu7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-CMqe3Aa9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77lqP9zj6-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAObRxHWefE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gNm07UfzJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZbbKnbT-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAeAcyGFoGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gF1huLaMYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LSS2ryLyhU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKf48VkxntE

Also, while this is a GG game, it's the same hardware as the SMS with an additional palette. There have few GG to SMS conversions with reduced palette, and they look amazing still. It's the SMS hardware that's pushing that game...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXwOlTyLoco



Who cares how it's done? As long as the games look great, that's what counts.

Well, because comments like NES can do that effect/game, just look at these other games that are impressive as proof, etc.

[Rob2600]

The SMS can scroll just as smooth as the NES and also doesn't have the same horizontal+vertical scrolling issue that the NES has.

The NES has scrolling issues? I was just playing Super Mario Bros. 3 and it scrolls perfectly fine in all directions.


Any detailed background the NES can do, the SMS can do better with more color. ... Here's some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7gAjwMu7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-CMqe3Aa9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77lqP9zj6-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAObRxHWefE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gNm07UfzJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZbbKnbT-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAeAcyGFoGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gF1huLaMYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LSS2ryLyhU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKf48VkxntE

Thanks for the videos. Yes, those Sega Master System games feature impressive graphics, but I think some NES games are comparable. Again, games like Contra, the Mega Man series, the Battletoads series, Life Force, Double Dragon II: The Revenge, Track & Field II, Kickmaster, Sword Master, Kirby's Adventure, and Batman: Return of the Joker feature equally impressive graphics on the NES.

Deep Duck Trouble Starring Donald Duck for the Sega Master System is really impressive though.

Regarding Sonic Blast's rendered graphics, there were a couple of impressive bootleg Donkey Kong Country games for the NES. Check out the rendered graphics:

Donkey Kong Country on NES (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0IkNugZ3jI)

Donkey Kong Country 2 on NES (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0efyEdGSiI&watch_response)

[ROTS MKII]

A SMS if deved for on a same level basis with the same game would allways win. A SMS could run PCE and SNES games given the chance.

The NES could do it with special chips and add-on's but stand alone with no special tricks and only flash storage no way and no how.

Could it produce a Golden Axe that is up to par with the SMS. Yes it can and I am sure somebody out there already most likely in Japan but I have yet to seen one game that is of the same status.