HDTV and Online Gaming Lag

[The 1 2 P]

I just bought a brand new 32' LCD HDTV from Best Buy. The pictures great and it plays my games fine, but when I play online theres noticable lag. For instance, when shooting a gun in Halo 2 or even jumping, the shooting and jumping action are both delayed by atleast a half second. My tv set is in
720p and Halo 2 plays in 480p, like most xbox and PS2 games. My question: is there anything I can do to play my xbox 1 games online without them lagging? I heard that the 360 upconverts xbox 1 games but I don't have a 360 yet so I need an xbox 1 solution.

[evildragon]

If it only happens during online gameplay, perhaps you have a slow internet connection causing the problem? Comcast and Timewarner are doing some nasty "packet shaping", which is port capping in a nutshell.

We're talking about 90Kbit like caps...

[SkiDragon]

HDTV lag and internet lag are two separate things entirely. I thought you were describing HDTV lag at first, but if it only happens online, then perhaps your internet connection is the problem. Do the games play fine offline?

[The 1 2 P]

HDTV lag and internet lag are two separate things entirely. I thought you were describing HDTV lag at first, but if it only happens online, then perhaps your internet connection is the problem. Do the games play fine offline?

It's not internet lag. I never had lag with my other tv that I just replaced with this new one. My old tv wasn't an hdtv or lcd--it was a 27 flat screen sdtv. My internet connection works better than fine and I can connect to anyone at any fast speeds. But since I put my new hdtv up I just started experiencing lag, but only online. Theres got to be a solution to this.

[The 1 2 P]

If it only happens during online gameplay, perhaps you have a slow internet connection causing the problem? Comcast and Timewarner are doing some nasty "packet shaping", which is port capping in a nutshell.

We're talking about 90Kbit like caps...

Nope, it's not my internet connection. I've been on xbox live since 2005 and my 27 inch tv never had this probelm. It just started with my new 32 inch lcd hdtv and only happens online, not offline. So it's an online-hdtv-gaming problem. Now that this has been made alittle clearer, dose anyone have some helpful advise I could use?

[SkiDragon]

The only thing I can think is that the online mode of the game may switch the console to a different resolution, but I doubt it.

[isufje]

If it's HDTV related, why would you only experience it online? Maybe it's happening off-line too, but you just don't notice it? Maybe?

[The 1 2 P]

If it's HDTV related, why would you only experience it online? Maybe it's happening off-line too, but you just don't notice it? Maybe?

I played both online and offline to see if the problem was with both. Offline the game functions normally but online there is a delay from the time I push the buttom until the time my gun shoots or my player jumps. And this never happened online before, it just started with my new hdtv.

[evildragon]

If it happens online, it's obviously a console thing, not the TV.

[The 1 2 P]

If it happens online, it's obviously a console thing, not the TV.

I thought you guys could help but apparently I was wrong. Google has a bunch of related articles on this topic. However, they all mainly focus on hdtv lag period--meaning the lag is noticable online and offline due to playing games at 480p and lower resolutions on tvs at 720p and higher resolutions. The reason I came here seeking knowledge is because my lag probelm only happens online, just started happening with my new hdtv(not my other tv I've been using on xbox live for the past 2 years), and has nothing to do with my internet connection speed. Knowing all this(I've stated it about every other line in this thread) no one still seems to understand and you are all keep saying maybe it's the same thing over and over again. I'm not trying to sound mean, but it's not an internet connection problem, it's not a console problem, it's not a basic lag problem; it's a problem that is stated right there in the title: when I go online with my new hdtv I experience a timing delay lag. Is there a way to get around this? Perhaps a device to upconvert 480p games to 720p resolution to play porperly on an hdtv?

[evildragon]

Then just set it to the old resolution that the old TV used.

[The 1 2 P]

Heres an article for you guys to read:http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=614017. It will help you better understand the problem. However, you'll notice they don't even mention online lag--just normal lag. And online lag is the problem I need to get resolved.

[evildragon]

I know what your saying, I'm designing a game console myself.

But, if the HDTV issue is about resolution, set the resolution never to go above 480 lines. Problem solved.

The issue can't be the TV itself, it doesn't make sense.

[RyanMurf]

Im sorry but this problem doesnt seem to make any sense to me. If you get no lag in offline mode but then you get lag in online mode then it is either your internet connection or a resolution change from single to multiplayer gaming. I highly doubt that the resolution changes from single to online multiplayer. Have your tried hoking your old tv back up just to try?

[The 1 2 P]

Im sorry but this problem doesnt seem to make any sense to me. If you get no lag in offline mode but then you get lag in online mode then it is either your internet connection or a resolution change from single to multiplayer gaming. I highly doubt that the resolution changes from single to online multiplayer. Have your tried hoking your old tv back up just to try?

Yup and my old tv still works find both on and offline. My hdtv still lags online.

[The 1 2 P]

I know what your saying, I'm designing a game console myself.

But, if the HDTV issue is about resolution, set the resolution never to go above 480 lines. Problem solved.

The issue can't be the TV itself, it doesn't make sense.

My tv doesn't have any option on it to switch resolutions on the fly. It's a 720p tv but it also supports 480p, 480i, 720p and 1080i resolutions.

[evildragon]

My tv doesn't have any option on it to switch resolutions on the fly. It's a 720p tv but it also supports 480p, 480i, 720p and 1080i resolutions.
I'm talking about ON THE XBOX. This is obviously an xbox problem.

[The 1 2 P]

I'm talking about ON THE XBOX. This is obviously an xbox problem.

I couldn't find any option to change resolutions in the xbox menus. It only lets you change tv formats: either standard, letterbox or wide screen. Unless I'm missing something.

[isufje]

My tv set is in
720p and Halo 2 plays in 480p


It's a 720p tv but it also supports 480p, 480i, 720p and 1080i resolutions.

When you say supports 480p, do you mean it displays 480p natively or upscales 480p to 720p?

Can you give me the make and model of you HDTV just incase your not sure? I'd like to help, but I gotta know what HDTV you have so I can check out the specs.

I don't believe there should be any lag if your TV's resolution is set at 480p and Halo 2 outputs at 480p. Change your TV to 480p if you haven't already done so.

[evildragon]

WAIT a minute, I thought this was a 360, hold on, I'll get a pic of the menu you need.

[evildragon]

When you say supports 480p, do you mean it displays 480p natively or upscales 480p to 720p?

Can you give me the make and model of you HDTV just incase your not sure? I'd like to help, but I gotta know what HDTV you have so I can check out the specs.

I don't believe there should be any lag if your TV's resolution is set at 480p and Halo 2 outputs at 480p. Change your TV to 480p if you haven't already done so.
I'm sure the TV scales up. But the problem is that the Xbox is outputting so much detail, it slows down the CPU.

He needs to read the manual that came with the Xbox to change the resolution. It's in "Display" somewhere..

[evildragon]

Wait, I think I know your problem... Your not even using the HD cables. If you don't have the Component HD cables, you won't see these options.. You NEED that cable, and if your getting a 360, don't even bother...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/Evilweredragon/disp.jpg

Without that cable, your outputting NTSC, and are having your TV decode NTSC, run it through a comb filter, deinterlace it, and upscale it. Yea, that's a delay. And weather you notice it or not, that's also OFFLINE gaming too..

[The 1 2 P]

Wait, I think I know your problem... Your not even using the HD cables. If you don't have the Component HD cables, you won't see these options.. You NEED that cable, and if your getting a 360, don't even bother...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/Evilweredragon/disp.jpg

Without that cable, your outputting NTSC, and are having your TV decode NTSC, run it through a comb filter, deinterlace it, and upscale it. Yea, that's a delay. And weather you notice it or not, that's also OFFLINE gaming too..

Finally a step in the right direction. Thanks evildragon. But what cables do you recommend? Gamestop has a pair of HD component cables for $14.99. Will those do?

[evildragon]

In my tests, the ONLY cables that would activate that menu, is the official Microsoft HD Pack cables. It comes in two flavors, a breakout box (original model), and a sing cable with Xbox at one end, and RCA jacks at the other. (later model, the cable I used in that pic)

[The 1 2 P]

These are the cables: http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802795

[evildragon]

No, those are not Microsoft cables, and will not give you the resolution menu you need.

That cable will only deliver 480i. While that will reduce the need for NTSC decoding and comb filters, it still leaves the deinterlacer (the worst of the process), and upscaling..

[SkiDragon]

TVs should really have an option to NOT deinterlace. Just update half the lines every frame. Is there some reason that is not possible? That would get rid of most of the lag, I think. This doesn't actually address the problem, I'm just contemplating.

[evildragon]

TVs should really have an option to NOT deinterlace. Just update half the lines every frame. Is there some reason that is not possible? That would get rid of most of the lag, I think. This doesn't actually address the problem, I'm just contemplating.
If you did that, it would be 30fps and only 240 lines of resolutions.

TVs with deinterlaces interpolate the fields to give you 60fps and full 480i res (when static images)..

My TV does Per-pixel adaptive deinterlacing, and is only ONE "frame" behind.

[SkiDragon]

Can't a TV assemble a frame with black pixels in every odd/even line, and the picture's pixels in every even/odd line, and then display the frame? This is the fastest way I can think of without each line refreshing at a different time, like a normal CRT.

Lag is the reason I have not yet bought an HDTV.

[evildragon]

No, because it's an LCD, it doesn't produce scanlines. Besides, even a CRT HDTV has scanlines, but it's very small. Adding artificial scanlines would look like ass.

Besides, it's practical to just deinterlace, it looks far better than trying to emulate 480i interlacing as you suggest.

Lag on an HDTV is non-existant if you match up to the native res. For LCD's this is usually 720p, even if not exact, as no deinterlacing is needed, only scaling, and show image...

[The 1 2 P]

No, those are not Microsoft cables, and will not give you the resolution menu you need.

That cable will only deliver 480i. While that will reduce the need for NTSC decoding and comb filters, it still leaves the deinterlacer (the worst of the process), and upscaling..

Well it's a good thing I haven't opened them yet. Tomorrow I'll go back to get the official used ones. I really didn't want to get the HD pack ones because they are huge, clunky and cumbersome looking. But I know they have those used. I'll look for the other ones. Do you have a picture of the newer/later model?

[evildragon]

Well, you did get an HDTV, not getting the HD cables is, no offense, stupid. ;) (i say that jokingly)

But still, you should get the HD cables. IF the problem persists, there's nothing I can do. But set it for 480p and 720p. Do not select 1080i if the LCD is natively 720p. Even though it can take in 1080i, it's useless and won't be seen, and would also require deinterlacing, and that's far more bandwidth than 480i.

[The 1 2 P]

Well, you did get an HDTV, not getting the HD cables is, no offense, stupid. ;) (i say that jokingly)

But still, you should get the HD cables. IF the problem persists, there's nothing I can do. But set it for 480p and 720p. Do not select 1080i if the LCD is natively 720p. Even though it can take in 1080i, it's useless and won't be seen, and would also require deinterlacing, and that's far more bandwidth than 480i.

It would be stupid...if I actually had something to plug the cables into. My cable box is connected to my tv thru a normal cable wire. But thats because I had a normal standard def tv before. I need to call them about upgrading. As for all my systems, some can take component cables and thats what I'm upgrading now. But for now the cables will run from my xbox to my system selector. If that doesn't work I'll run it directly into the tv.

[The 1 2 P]

Do you have a pic of your xbox component cables? I want to see what the newer/later model looks like.

[evildragon]

Um, they are strapped down...

But here's what they look like from web searching: http://media.teamxbox.com/faq/hd_av.jpg

That's one type.. The other type is a single cable from MS...

http://www.buynshop.com/images/products/505-07003.gif

(look closely at the connector style...)

I can get a closeup pic of the ends on mine (the second small pic), if you want me too..

[The 1 2 P]

Um, they are strapped down...

But here's what they look like from web searching: http://media.teamxbox.com/faq/hd_av.jpg

That's one type.. The other type is a single cable from MS...

http://www.buynshop.com/images/products/505-07003.gif

(look closely at the connector style...)

I can't see the first image because I'm not a member of that web site. But the second image will do.

[DJ Daishi]

Well, you did get an HDTV, not getting the HD cables is, no offense, stupid. ;) (i say that jokingly)

I second that....minus the joking.

[evildragon]

I can't see the first image because I'm not a member of that web site. But the second image will do.
That's totally weird, I'm not a member there either and didn't need to. Lets just say it's a black box.. that's a breakout box from Microsoft called the "HD Pack".

Do you need my pic of the second cable?

[The 1 2 P]

That's totally weird, I'm not a member there either and didn't need to. Lets just say it's a black box.. that's a breakout box from Microsoft called the "HD Pack".

Do you need my pic of the second cable?

I'm going to try and find one tomorrow. I know I can get the bulky one but I'm hoping to find the other one.

[The 1 2 P]

Ok, I got the official cable and it works like a charm. My online gaming is back to normal. Thanks again evildragon for all your help.

[evildragon]

Glad ditching NTSC worked good.

Which type did you get? Breakout box model, or straight cable?

Heh, only thing now is you gotta remember those "5" wires now :p (white/red for audio, and red/green/blue for picture)

[The 1 2 P]

Glad ditching NTSC worked good.

Which type did you get? Breakout box model, or straight cable?

Heh, only thing now is you gotta remember those "5" wires now :p (white/red for audio, and red/green/blue for picture)

I got the one without the big ass box. They had both used but I got the less bulky one. And now I can finally kill people on time.

[evildragon]

I got the one without the big ass box. They had both used but I got the less bulky one. And now I can finally kill people on time.
Haha, and you made sure to check off 480p and 720p, but not 1080i, correct?

[The 1 2 P]

Haha, and you made sure to check off 480p and 720p, but not 1080i, correct?

Actually I only checked off 480p, but I'll go back and check of 720p as well. But I think Soul Calibur 2 is my only 720p game anyway.

[evildragon]

Ok. Well, don't forget, 480p isn't an HDTV mode, it's an EDTV mode.

If a game supports 720p, the native res of your panel, it will then be in HDTV only as long as you checked it off...

[The 1 2 P]

Ok. Well, don't forget, 480p isn't an HDTV mode, it's an EDTV mode.

If a game supports 720p, the native res of your panel, it will then be in HDTV only as long as you checked it off...

I know what SDTV and HDTV stand for. Whats the "E" in EDTV stand for?

[evildragon]

I know what SDTV and HDTV stand for. Whats the "E" in EDTV stand for?

Enhanced. It was before HDTV, but after SDTV.

[The 1 2 P]

Enhanced. It was before HDTV, but after SDTV.

I see.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

In my tests, the ONLY cables that would activate that menu, is the official Microsoft HD Pack cables. It comes in two flavors, a breakout box (original model), and a sing cable with Xbox at one end, and RCA jacks at the other. (later model, the cable I used in that pic)

I know you said "in my tests" but those component cables WILL work for an HDTV, and will output in 480p. I know, because I just bought them 3 weeks ago for our new 1080p set and a second XBOX in the house. I went and activated all the menu options for 480p, 720p, 1080i... and played several games just fine. In fact in the top corner of the television- it shows the signal is in 480p. The only problem with these cables, is that the XBOX connector doesn't have an optical out (only the 360 connector does)- which isn't good if you plan on hooking it up to a digital surround system. I also have another 1080i set in the house with a 2nd XBOX and the official XBOX component cables (non-breakout box). I know the problem has been resolved- but just wanted to add my experience with those cables.

Edit: I just tested a 720p (Hulk Ultimate Destruction) game on the set with the gamestop cables (a 1080p TV)... and in the top corner of the screen I got 720p... The game played just fine in 720p with those cables. Also you should check all the HDTV resolution boxes 1080 720 and 480p, if you want to experience a game at a higher resolution... because even if the TV doesn't display in that resolution most sets will will support it. Now... I don't know if that causes a problem in online gaming, but I don't think it would. You could always test it to be sure. Every now and then I have gotten a game, that would not work correctly with my console set to anything but 480i... they may have been bad games... so if you get a game that won't play (this has been on my 1080i set with the official XBOX cables)... try turning off all the settings but 480i and it should work- but you may never have to do this.

[evildragon]

The last time I got Component cables that weren't official, it wouldn't trigger the HD mode. It would just be Component, but 480i only...

Perhaps they finally fixed that..

[The 1 2 P]

The last time I got Component cables that weren't official, it wouldn't trigger the HD mode. It would just be Component, but 480i only...

Perhaps they finally fixed that..

Well after you told me to get the official cables I never even opened up the Gamestop version. I just returned them. But the official cables work great and there is no more lag when I play online or offline(though I never experienced lag offline). However, hopefully I can say the same thing once I start playing my NES, Genesis and Super NES games on it.

[evildragon]

Well after you told me to get the official cables I never even opened up the Gamestop version. I just returned them. But the official cables work great and there is no more lag when I play online or offline(though I never experienced lag offline). However, hopefully I can say the same thing once I start playing my NES, Genesis and Super NES games on it.
Ehh, those are NTSC.

Thing is, the TV has no idea they are 240p, and not 480i, so it still goes through the whole deinterlace routine. What you get is a big pixelated mess (along with a delay possibly).

Best advice: Stick those machines on an old TV..

[The 1 2 P]

Ehh, those are NTSC.

Thing is, the TV has no idea they are 240p, and not 480i, so it still goes through the whole deinterlace routine. What you get is a big pixelated mess (along with a delay possibly).

Best advice: Stick those machines on an old TV..

I sold my old tv. But I played Double Dribble on my NES and it didn't lag so things might be ok on that front.

[evildragon]

Just remember this though: There IS lag, just perhaps not noticeable. But your Xbox was obviously lagging more online than offline.. With your old TV you just wouldn't notice this.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Although there is no noticable lag on an HDTV for an NES... you will not be able to play any light gun games. If you don't plan on playing Duck Hunt or Hogan's Alley, you'll never know the difference. And I have a CRT HDTV and there is no pixelization... and it looks nearly the same as on an analog set. On the other hand if you have a plasma or LCD TV, you may notice some drop in quality vs. an analog set.

[evildragon]

Although there is no noticable lag on an HDTV for an NES... you will not be able to play any light gun games. If you don't plan on playing Duck Hunt or Hogan's Alley, you'll never know the difference. And I have a CRT HDTV and there is no pixelization... and it looks nearly the same as on an analog set. On the other hand if you have a plasma or LCD TV, you may notice some drop in quality vs. an analog set.
Well, considering most HDTV sets upscale 240p/480i to 540p, there would be pixilation, you just may not notice the "doubled scanline" appearance.

THAT'S where the small lag comes from, de-interlacing for the upscaling.. No CRT HDTV today can do 240p/480i natively, due to price for parts. So they are instead 540p/1080i...