The double- edged Wii – Economic Success and Game Quality

[Neil Koch]

I hope you're right. I haven't been burned by many Wii games, but Need For Speed Carbon is pretty much unplayable once you progress a little in the game because of the bad Wii controls. If they'd allowed for the use of the classic controller, it'd be a perfectly fine street racing game.


For an application that would really benifit from the type of control offered but fails because the control is not precise enough, like Under the knife, I presume, then it could be considered a liability. (I am Presuming here and admitting it! Someone let me know how this game handles on the Wii, please. Kay? Thx.)


I don't have Under the Knife, but the control on Second Opinion is solid. I just didn't get into the game because of the dumb story and the anime-style graphics and got bored pretty quickly with it.

[lendelin]

If you don't like the Wii, fine, don't play it. If you like it, play it like its the last system you'll ever own.

This is childish nonsense. That means everything we play we have to like and produce positive reviews. Just read the excellent review section of this site, and if a game gets a bad review feel free to post the comment: if you don't like the game, fine, don't play it.

This is a site where gamers talk about various aspects of games and consoles, past and present. Among them the quality of games and consoles, and aspects of the industry.

The Wii is THE surprise of 2007, Nintendo is certainly the comeback kid of 2007, the Wii controller is a unique controller going mainstream, and the Wii broadened the demographics of gamers like no game system before. Do you think this is unimportant?


This thread sucks.

This is as enlightening as your estimation of the Wii. I go down to your level of your first sentence: if you don't like the thread, fine, don't read it. If you like it, read it like it's the last thread you'll ever read.

I'm afraid the last two sentences make sense to you.

[djbeatmongrel]

I'm not going to bother quoting you but my only reason in my post was to point out that this thread is at the point where everyone is rehashing the same things over and over and again. Its past the point of an enlightened conversation and is now at thepoint where everyone should agree to disagree on tha mtter because its not like anyones opinions going to budge until some major shift in the market comes about.

I'm out.

[lendelin]

I'm not going to bother quoting you but my only reason in my post was to point out that this thread is at the point where everyone is rehashing the same things over and over and again. Its past the point of an enlightened conversation and is now at thepoint where everyone should agree to disagree on tha mtter because its not like anyones opinions going to budge until some major shift in the market comes about.

I'm out.

In this case...it would have made more sense to let the thread die a natural death and give it a respectful funeral instead of posting nonsense.

The sentence "This thread sucks" isn't only w/o substance, it is counterproductive. It bumps the thread, and the provoked responses bump it again.

[John_Madden]

In order to play games you have to have the controller in your hand.

[MR.TI994A]

I'm tired of seeing this thread near the top of the modern gaming forum so I going to post this. If you don't like the Wii, fine, don't play it. If you like it, play it like its the last system you'll ever own.

This thread sucks.

Your statement ("I'm tired of seeing this thread near the top of the modern gaming forum") in relationship to your action (of bumping the thread to the top by responding) reminded me of one of my favorite movie quotes...


Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Oh the irony.

[Volcanon]

The only thing Nintendo hasnt done well is gotten the next Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy or Super Robot Wars on the Wii.

Remember, the best system is not always what wins.

VHS beat Beta
NES beat Master system
Genesis in some places beat SNES
PSX beat everything
and so on.

[lendelin]

The only thing Nintendo hasnt done well is gotten the next Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy or Super Robot Wars on the Wii.

Remember, the best system is not always what wins.

VHS beat Beta
NES beat Master system
Genesis in some places beat SNES
PSX beat everything
and so on.

First, this isn't the main focus of the thread. The central question was the gamequality of the Wii independently of the state of its competitors.

Second, this is an old argument. While there is no doubt at all that technoligical power is only one factor among others for the economic success of a console, it doesn't apply to the Wii and the PS3 and the 360.

The Master System wasn't 5 years behind the NES
The SNES wasn't 5years behind the Genesis
The PSX wasn't 5 years behind the N64 and Saturn
and so on.

...they were roughly in the same ballpark. The Wii is the first mainstream console which is technologically clearly inferior and was even marketed as such, a novelty in game history.

[djbeatmongrel]

The sentence "This thread sucks" isn't only w/o substance, it is counterproductive. It bumps the thread, and the provoked responses bump it again.

Next time I'll PM you abuout your thread perpetually sucking ok? Get over it.


Your statement ("I'm tired of seeing this thread near the top of the modern gaming forum") in relationship to your action (of bumping the thread to the top by responding) reminded me of one of my favorite movie quotes...

Oh the irony.

And to rectify the problem of bumping this thread i'll do a little somethintg I learned recently to fix that problem:

SAGE goes in every field

[MR.TI994A]

Next time I'll PM you abuout your thread perpetually sucking ok? Get over it.

How about getting over yourself and let it be?

If you don't like a thread, move along and be on your way. It's not like we need to know whether or not this thread is "djbeatmongrel approved". This thread was moving along quite finely until you dropped in and contributed absolutely nothing other than reveal to us your lack of intelligence and tolerance.

[lendelin]

Next time I'll PM you abuout your thread perpetually sucking ok? Get over it.


It isn’t “MY” thread, I merely started it, it is the thread of everyone who contributed, including you. The quality of this thread is as good as its contributions.

Let me just point out when this thread went downhill. It was an intelligent thread, focusing for the most part on the quality of the motion controls, and Rob2600, FrankieSaysRelax, and blissfulnoise and others had good arguments pro and contra the precision of the controls. Noone blamed a poster disagreeing with him, noone tried to introduce negative stereotypes in order to brand disagreeing posters.

The moment Wirestone and blue Lander introduced the election campaign rally level of reasoning, the substance of the thread was lost. Suddenly they grouped the gamers into open minded and closed minded/narrow minded, into flexible and inflexible ones, into gamers open for change and gamers who want it the old ways.

Logically and necessary, even reviewers were put into the same categories. Needless to say, the people who agree with you are in the positive category. 'Good gamers and reviewers' support the Wii remote, 'bad gamers and reviewers' are against it.

This creation of groups into “us” and “them” is not only nonsense and factually incorrect, it is very dangerous. It is the starting point of non-refutable reasoning. It is the mind set of educational dictators. It necessarily introduces intolerance. Very often it is followed by the accusation that the others with dissenting opinions are the intolerant ones. All of the above happened in this thread.

You tried to introduce this level very early, I ignored it for good reasons.


I hate to single you out Lendelin but I think people with your mind set are afraid to think outside of whats the norm in modern gaming.

There you have it. Mere criticism is smashed with single-mindedness. In order to be fair you have to assume that everyone is as open-minded as you are.

How dumb would it have been if I had stated that supporters of the Wii

- are inexperienced, therefore they like the Wii remote;
- are short-sighted consumers who just don’t know how great the standard controls are;
- are jaded gamers so desperate for change that they wear blindfolds;
- are jaded reviewers so desperate for change that they cannot produce unbiased reviews.

Do you really think (same goes for blue Lander and Wirestone) that someone who plays for 20 or 30 years desperately screams “Oh no, don’t give me something new, I want more of the same, I want to be bored?”

This is a terrible assumption in particular on a collector’s website where the majority of gamers like to play their older games for the sake of VARIETY and different game experiences and not for the sake to cling to the “old ways.” Side scrolling 2D-games can give you something the newer games just can’t, and vice versa.

djbeatmongrel, Wirestone, and blueLander, I stressed this dangerous reasoning of “us” and “them” because it applies to every area of life when someone disagrees with you; the same kind of nonsense you hear already from enthusiastic supporters in election campaigns with the elistist and demeaning attributes, and it will get worse until November.

I understand your enthusiasm, but don’t shut down every criticism. The latter makes radicals in some cases, and moreover it usually leads to mere bias, unfairness and nonsense.

Never follow this kind of thinking. Otherwise you could stand in a swamp and proclaim you are in a desert, and noone will be able to contradict you because your critics are just close-minded.

[blue lander]

Are you really condemning the wiimote as a failure when it's the first iteration of a new technology and they've only been trying to write games for it for a year? No offense, but the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

It's like comparing the 3D polygonal graphics of Playstation or Saturn games after just one year after its release to that of 2D sprite based games after they had been around for 15 years. Those early 3D Playstation/Saturn games mostly looked like total shit. Who'd rather look at some hideous crude blocky unshaded polygonal monstrosity compared to a beautify hand-drawn, high resolution sprite based game? And how many of those games were just rehashes of 2D ones with 3D graphics added as a gimmick when it would have worked in 2D?

How many of the of the arguments you're using against the wiimote technology in 2008 have been used against 3D graphics in 1996? If you wanted to time travel back to 1996 and debate somebody on the failure of polygonal 3D graphics, you'd probably win. And it would prove exactly what the debate you're having now proves: absolutely nothing.

I don't like making any crazy predictions, but I think more sophisticated motion controls will be as ubiquitous in 2018 as 3D graphics were in 2006, and traditional controls will be as superceded as 2D graphics are by 3D ones. I wouldn't be suprised if the next generation of gamers will look at a 360 control the same way kids these days look at an Atari joystick - as a relic.

edit: to clarify, my point here is that I don't have a problem with the technical arguments people are making for/against the wii, I have a problem with the premise of the thread itself. It just doesn't mean anything.

[blissfulnoise]

Are you really condemning the wiimote as a failure when it's the first iteration of a new technology and they've only been trying to write games for it for a year? No offense, but the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

The problem is that you're comparing development against functionality.

Yes, programmers can learn new tricks and methods to squeeze higher quality textures through compression or increase polygon count via reusable math, etc.

The Wiimote, on the other hand, will never be operationally "more functional" regardless of whatever the development houses come up with. No programming technique will result in better visibility between the sensor and the Wiimote.

They may come up with new, innovative ways to "waggle", but to program your way out of interference with the hardware is impossible.

[lendelin]

Are you really condemning the wiimote as a failure when it's the first iteration of a new technology and they've only been trying to write games for it for a year? No offense, but the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

It's like comparing the 3D polygonal graphics of Playstation or Saturn games after just one year after its release to that of 2D sprite based games after they had been around for 15 years. Those early 3D Playstation/Saturn games mostly looked like total shit. Who'd rather look at some hideous crude blocky unshaded polygonal monstrosity compared to a beautify hand-drawn, high resolution sprite based game? And how many of those games were just rehashes of 2D ones with 3D graphics added as a gimmick when it would have worked in 2D?

I don't like making any crazy predictions, but I think more sophisticated motion controls will be as ubiquitous in 2018 as 3D graphics were in 2006, and traditional controls will be as superceded as 2D graphics are by 3D ones. I wouldn't be suprised if the next generation of gamers will look at a 360 control the same way kids these days look at an Atari joystick - as a relic.

First, it is not too early to evaluate the precision of Wii remote; Nintendo released Wii Sports and Wii Play as demos of the abilities of motions sensing. It works fine for short limited gameplay, and reviewers pointed out that it works best even for these party games when the controls are accurate (Wii Bowling, with limits Tennis). Wii Play was a desaster.

We have a myriad of games where motion sensing failed terribly beyond the party game level for 15 months now. Assuming that developers got developments kits earlier, we are talking about roughly one year and 9 months.

I'm afraid that this is as good as it gets; if Nintendo didn't manage to produce more precise and more flexible controls in their showcase demos as incentives to sell the machine, I'm afraid other developers can't master them in a better way.

Second, the "premise" of this thread isn't "ridiculous" because we can only evaluate what is THERE, what IS, not what will be. I'm not discussing the potential of motion sensing, I never questioned that it holds great promises. But it is nonsense to evaluate present games and motion sensing based on their future potential. I can only discuss the quality of the Wii remote how it is, not how it might be in future iterations drastically improved ten years from now.

This would be as nonsensical as to discuss the motion sensing of the Wii hardware and its use in games assuming that it goes downhill from now on and in ten years from now it won't even exist.

How should I evaluate the motion sensing in No More Heroes today on the basis of its potential in 2012? Should I say that the Wii remote is fully implemented into gameplay because in 2012 it will (or might) happen?

I can, however say, that the game and its motion sensing has great potential and needs to be fully implemented instead of simplified...which is an indirect admittance that its motion sensing is limited.


How many of the of the arguments you're using against the wiimote technology in 2008 have been used against 3D graphics in 1996? If you wanted to time travel back to 1996 and debate somebody on the failure of polygonal 3D graphics, you'd probably win. And it would prove exactly what the debate you're having now proves: absolutely nothing.

You assume again that the future result of technology and accessories are indisputable. This shuts off criticism. This is hindsight analysis and/or strong belief in their potential. The latter isn't suited to evaluate existing hardware and games today.

If I had a discussion in 1986 with someone who strongly believed that our beloved NES-R.O.B. has fantastic potential, I'd be in the same situation as I am with you now. I'd evaluate the gameplay ROB is capable of as limited and shallow, despite the fact that electronics store managers love to showcase him and despite the fact that he was on TV praised as the possible future of gaming. (which was the case) You'd say it is new technology and it will be great, developers just have to learn how to make good use of it.

Motion sensing has great potential, and I'm sure Nintendo or someone else will improve it and implement it in games. That doesn't change a thing about the Wii motion sensing: marketed way too early, incapable delivering richer gameplay beyond party games, and dominating its competitors with a marketing gimmick.

The potential of motion sensing doesn't also change the positive aspects of the Wii remote: incredible instant accessibility, the broadening of gamer demographics which has a lot of positive aspects, the necessary correction of game development to make simplicity the golden rule if complexity can be avoided withot sacrificing gameplay.

I called the Wii a wake up call for game developers, and indeed it is.

[blue lander]

The problem is that you're comparing development against functionality.

Yes, programmers can learn new tricks and methods to squeeze higher quality textures through compression or increase polygon count via reusable math, etc.

The Wiimote, on the other hand, will never be operationally "more functional" regardless of whatever the development houses come up with. No programming technique will result in better visibility between the sensor and the Wiimote.

They may come up with new, innovative ways to "waggle", but to program your way out of interference with the hardware is impossible.

Are you really comfortable saying that, after just one year, there's no way to work around the wiimote's technical limitations in software? A lot of things many consoles achieve at the end of their lifetimes were considered impossible in the beginning, after all.


First, it is not too early to evaluate the precision of Wii remote; Nintendo released Wii Sports and Wii Play as demos of the abilities of motions sensing. It works fine for short limited gameplay, and reviewers pointed out that it works best even for these party games when the controls are accurate (Wii Bowling, with limits Tennis). Wii Play was a desaster.

So based on three games released within a year of the of the systems launch, you're sure you know exactly what the boundaries of the wiimote are as far as how they enhance gameplay? I really expected people on a classic gaming board to have more perspective than that.


We have a myriad of games where motion sensing failed terribly beyond the party game level for 15 months now. Assuming that developers got developments kits earlier, we are talking about roughly one year and 9 months.

What do you expect? The majority of launch games utilizing new technology are terrible failures, just like virtually every new technology ever developed? What kind of judgment can you possibly make from that?


Second, the "premise" of this thread isn't "ridiculous" because we can only evaluate what is THERE, what IS, not what will be. I'm not discussing the potential of motion sensing, I never questioned that it holds great promises. But it is nonsense to evaluate present games and motion sensing based on their future potential. I can only discuss the quality of the Wii remote how it is, not how it might be in future iterations drastically improved ten years from now.

There's nothing wrong with evaluating what's been released for the wii. But extrapolating from that the limitations of a one year old console is ridiculous. Sorry.



You assume again that the future result of technology and accessories are indisputable. This shuts off criticism. This is hindsight analysis and/or strong belief in their potential. The latter isn't suited to evaluate existing hardware and games today.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm certain it's too early to declare the wii a success or failure in terms of enhancing video games as a form of entertainment, which is what you're trying to do. However, it's my personal opinion, which may turn out to be right or wrong, that wiimote style controls will be ubiquitous in 10 years. Not on the strength or weakness of a couple of launch titles, but on the enormous enthusiasm from an enormous untapped market for what the wii promised, which may or may not be completely different than what it actually delivered, which makes me think there's a huge market out there for controllers that are more interactive than sitting on your butt and waggling a joystick and pushing buttons.


If I had a discussion in 1986 with someone who strongly believed that our beloved NES-R.O.B. has fantastic potential, I'd be in the same situation as I am with you now. I'd evaluate the gameplay ROB is capable of as limited and shallow, despite the fact that electronics store managers love to showcase him and despite the fact that he was on TV praised as the possible future of gaming. (which was the case) You'd say it is new technology and it will be great, developers just have to learn how to make good use of it.

I don't recall any actual consumers being enthusiastic about the R.O.B. but for the sake of argument (which I think is the sole reason this thread exists), let's say they were. Let's also assume, against all evidence, that the wiimote is just a trojan horse to get the wii on the shelves of toy stores and that Nintendo has no intention of supporting it. And let's also make the ridiculous assumption that the wiimote is a one trick pony like the R.O.B. that was fully utilized in every possible way with the two games that were released for it. And let's make the exceedingly ludicrous assumption that there was actually some sector of the market had a demand for more R.O.B. style games that Nintendo never tapped. And let's assume... you know what? I can't twist my brain enough to make a fair comparison of the wiimote to the R.O.B. Sorry, I'm just going to concede this point rather than risk losing what little grip on reality I have left.


Motion sensing has great potential, and I'm sure Nintendo or someone else will improve it and implement it in games. That doesn't change a thing about the Wii motion sensing: marketed way too early, incapable delivering richer gameplay beyond party games, and dominating its competitors with a marketing gimmick.

Thank you for distilling all the problems your argument has into a single paragraph. I wish the rest of this thread was as succinct.

Does motion sensing have great potential? Probably, sure.

Was it marketed too early? What does tha even mean? Too early to live up to your expectations? Unless you can prove your expectations are the same as everybody elses, who cares?

Incapable of delivering richer gameplay beyond party games and only a marketing gimmick? Impossible to say after just a year. This is where your argument has absolutely no legs and why this thread is ridiculous. You may very well be right, but then again there may be some equivalent of Donkey Kong Country or Star Fox that shows the wiimote is capable of far beyond what you expected. You're ready to write the final chapter on a console that's still in it's opening paragraph.

And even if it doesn't deliver a richer gameplay experience, it may still deliver one that's quite a bit more fun, especially for the casual gamer. Which was the whole point, by the way.

[esquire]

Are you really comfortable saying that, after just one year, there's no way to work around the wiimote's technical limitations in software? A lot of things many consoles achieve at the end of their lifetimes were considered impossible in the beginning, after all.

So based on three games released within a year of the of the systems launch, you're sure you know exactly what the boundaries of the wiimote are as far as how they enhance gameplay? I really expected people on a classic gaming board to have more perspective than that.

What do you expect? The majority of launch games utilizing new technology are terrible failures, just like virtually every new technology ever developed? What kind of judgment can you possibly make from that?

There's nothing wrong with evaluating what's been released for the wii. But extrapolating from that the limitations of a one year old console is ridiculous. Sorry.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm certain it's too early to declare the wii a success or failure in terms of enhancing video games as a form of entertainment, which is what you're trying to do. However, it's my personal opinion, which may turn out to be right or wrong, that wiimote style controls will be ubiquitous in 10 years. Not on the strength or weakness of a couple of launch titles, but on the enormous enthusiasm from an enormous untapped market for what the wii promised, which may or may not be completely different than what it actually delivered, which makes me think there's a huge market out there for controllers that are more interactive than sitting on your butt and waggling a joystick and pushing buttons.

I don't recall any actual consumers being enthusiastic about the R.O.B. but for the sake of argument (which I think is the sole reason this thread exists), let's say they were. Let's also assume, against all evidence, that the wiimote is just a trojan horse to get the wii on the shelves of toy stores and that Nintendo has no intention of supporting it. And let's also make the ridiculous assumption that the wiimote is a one trick pony like the R.O.B. that was fully utilized in every possible way with the two games that were released for it. And let's make the exceedingly ludicrous assumption that there was actually some sector of the market had a demand for more R.O.B. style games that Nintendo never tapped. And let's assume... you know what? I can't twist my brain enough to make a fair comparison of the wiimote to the R.O.B. Sorry, I'm just going to concede this point rather than risk losing what little grip on reality I have left.

Thank you for distilling all the problems your argument has into a single paragraph. I wish the rest of this thread was as succinct.

Does motion sensing have great potential? Probably, sure.

Was it marketed too early? What does tha even mean? Too early to live up to your expectations? Unless you can prove your expectations are the same as everybody elses, who cares?

Incapable of delivering richer gameplay beyond party games and only a marketing gimmick? Impossible to say after just a year. This is where your argument has absolutely no legs and why this thread is ridiculous. You may very well be right, but then again there may be some equivalent of Donkey Kong Country or Star Fox that shows the wiimote is capable of far beyond what you expected. You're ready to write the final chapter on a console that's still in it's opening paragraph.

And even if it doesn't deliver a richer gameplay experience, it may still deliver one that's quite a bit more fun, especially for the casual gamer. Which was the whole point, by the way.

Do yourself a favor. Replace "Nintendo" with "Sony","Wii" with "PS3", and "Wiimote" with "Sixxaxis control". Now please tell me honestly whether you could not say the same thing?

My point is that if this thread was about Sony and the failure of the Sixxaxis, I don't think we would see many defenders based upon the same arguments you are making for the Wiimote, i.e. "It's still new", "There are only a few games that utilize it correctly" and "No one can tell what the future has for the Sixxaxis". Moreover, I think the passion for all things Nintendo would not transfer over to the PS3 and the Sixxaxis. If anything, this board has been very critical of Sony of late, and perhaps rightfully so. Moreover, its not likely that people would dispute the failure of the Sixxaxis controls after 14 months on the market.

But when we make the same argument as to the flaws of Nintendo and its Wiimote, people seem to take a different approach.

Just for the record, I am not comparing the Wii to the PS3 whether in functionality, popularity or volume of sales. Nor is anyone here saying the Wii sucks. This thread was never a Nintendo bashing thread, or meant to be a discussion on which system is better or which system sells more worldwide. It was meant to discuss the technical shortcomings of a piece of hardware and its supporting technology. That is the basis for my comparision. Both consoles were released around the same time. both consoles introduced a new technology that affects gameplay.

[blissfulnoise]

Are you really comfortable saying that, after just one year, there's no way to work around the wiimote's technical limitations in software? A lot of things many consoles achieve at the end of their lifetimes were considered impossible in the beginning, after all.

You're still not grasping the issue here. The technical issues are tantamount to a hardware flaw; not a software one. No amount of programming savvy is going to prevent sunlight (among many other issues) from blocking the IR reception back to the remote nor will it negate the need to stand between X and Y feet to enjoy your games. The issue lies in the design of the hardware.

I'm not above the possibility that some degree of "error" correction could be programmed into the games. For example, should the sensor lose site of the remote, for whatever reason, instead of shooting the cursor across the screen randomly, the game could use some sort of logic to center out the cursor. This could correct some of the issues with the IR sensor bar in some cases (clearly not all - and it may just create new issues), but it would simply be masking the underlying issue and not addressing the core problem that Nintendo's engineers created.

I asked once before in the thread; have you played the Wii beyond just a passing level (occasionally at a friend’s house, kiosks, what-have-you)? I ask again because I'm curious as to if you've experienced the sensor issues I've cited all over the thread. (If you have a Wii and I'm mixing you up with another poster, I apologize)

At this point in the discourse first hand experience is pretty important in continuing the discussion. Speculation and argument for the sake of itself don't seem to be moving the rock any further up the hill.

[John_Madden]

The thing with the Wii is the more you move your arms around, the more you move on the screen.

[lendelin]

In order to play games you have to have the controller in your hand.

The next Wii game is always the most difficult.

(Paraphrasing old German soccer coach Sepp Herberger: "The next game is always the most difficult.")

The Wii Remote is rectangular.

(Paraphrasing old German soccer coach Sepp Herberger: "The soccer ball is round.")

Please John, don't yell: GO. BACK. TO. GERMANY.

[blue lander]

Do yourself a favor. Replace "Nintendo" with "Sony","Wii" with "PS3", and "Wiimote" with "Sixxaxis control". Now please tell me honestly whether you could not say the same thing?

I'm perfectly comfortable saying the same thing about the PS3. I think people are counting it out too quickly. Personally, I think since PS3 games are incredibly expensive to produce, you'll be less likely to see developers as willing to experiment as much with the Sixxaxis as they do on the wii. And since the PS3 is such a graphical powerhouse, I'd imagine developers concentrate more on pushing the hardware to its limits than experimenting with new ways to use the controller.



You're still not grasping the issue here. The technical issues are tantamount to a hardware flaw; not a software one. No amount of programming savvy is going to prevent sunlight (among many other issues) from blocking the IR reception back to the remote nor will it negate the need to stand between X and Y feet to enjoy your games. The issue lies in the design of the hardware.

Point taken, but what do those limitations have to do with the controller only being good for gimmicky party games like whatshisface says? Would the wiimote provide a "richer game experience" (whatever that means) than a traditional controller if you could stand as far away from the screen as you'd like or play in a room where there's sunlight? Is it a "dissapointment on all fronts" because it doesn't work right all the time?

What you call flaws could also just be called limitations, which come with the territory when you introduce new technology into consumer electronics. In that case all first generation hardware is flawed, and you're back to this discussion being ridiculous.

All hardware design is a compromise between what's ideal and what's practical. If Nintendo had to use hardware that wasn't 100% perfect in every single way to come in at a price point (IE: Less than you'd be willing to pay) that would appeal to casual gamers (IE: not you) yet still provide them the functionality they need (IE: less than you need), why should we consider it a failure?

My experience with the wii has been casual, just at friend's houses (all non-gamers) and all the problems they've had have been annoyances, not crippling flaws. Sure, they don't play the wii that often, but they don't play any video game that often nor do they want to. Personally I'm not interested in any of the games enough to actually buy one yet, if at all.

[djbeatmongrel]

The wii has a lot of hidden potential and a lot of quality games that are already making innovative use of the technology provided. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential for the controllers and sensor bar.

I insist the you, Lendelin in particular, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Your point of view on the subject matter seems to only be formulated from the playing of some of the basic party games and reading the reviews of jaded gaming journalists. As a member of the boards I would think someone would be above that and be able to provide a view based off first hand experience instead of some formulated collage of industry types reviews. Its the gamers that matter, not some silly reviewer.

Edited for grammatical reasons.

[lendelin]

So based on three games released within a year of the of the systems launch, you're sure you know exactly what the boundaries of the wiimote are as far as how they enhance gameplay? I really expected people on a classic gaming board to have more perspective than that.

Nonsensical misrepresentation. Your next quote by me refers to the “myriad of games in which motion sensing failed” since launch time.


What do you expect? The majority of launch games utilizing new technology are terrible failures, just like virtually every new technology ever developed? What kind of judgment can you possibly make from that?

Judgement calls about the technology and games in the last 16 months. Based on the experience so far, blissfulnoise and me made careful predictions about the quality of motion sensing short term, nothing more. We don’t know how motion sensing looks in Wii games three years from now, we are careful skeptics. You are a careless strong believer.

I wouldn’t call games released 15 months after release launch titles. But since you give so much leeway to the Wii and introduce euphemisms, you might regard the entire Wii era as a launch time for something much bigger.

Your answer again: judgement calls about the Wii motion sensing are pre-mature, give it more time. Noone can argue with that, noone can work with thin air or punch a ghost.


There's nothing wrong with evaluating what's been released for the wii. But extrapolating from that the limitations of a one year old console is ridiculous. Sorry.

see above


That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm certain it's too early to declare the wii a success or failure in terms of enhancing video games as a form of entertainment, which is what you're trying to do. However, it's my personal opinion, which may turn out to be right or wrong, that wiimote style controls will be ubiquitous in 10 years. Not on the strength or weakness of a couple of launch titles, but on the enormous enthusiasm from an enormous untapped market for what the wii promised, which may or may not be completely different than what it actually delivered, which makes me think there's a huge market out there for controllers that are more interactive than sitting on your butt and waggling a joystick and pushing buttons.

Motion sensing is a failure SO FAR beyond the party game level, nothing more and nothing less. We stressed the limitation of the technology, not the alleged fault of developers. Hundreds of developers weren’t able to make the Wii motion sensing in a way accurate so it can enhance gameplay beyond party games or in dumbed down trivial ways used in great games. In this thread we focused on specific games which is only possible if we look at EXISTING games.

Your answer again: give it more time, evaluations are pre-mature. Noone can argue with that, noone can work with thin air or punch a ghost.


I don't recall any actual consumers being enthusiastic about the R.O.B. but for the sake of argument (which I think is the sole reason this thread exists), let's say they were. Let's also assume, against all evidence, that the wiimote is just a trojan horse to get the wii on the shelves of toy stores and that Nintendo has no intention of supporting it. And let's also make the ridiculous assumption that the wiimote is a one trick pony like the R.O.B. that was fully utilized in every possible way with the two games that were released for it. And let's make the exceedingly ludicrous assumption that there was actually some sector of the market had a demand for more R.O.B. style games that Nintendo never tapped. And let's assume... you know what? I can't twist my brain enough to make a fair comparison of the wiimote to the R.O.B. Sorry, I'm just going to concede this point rather than risk losing what little grip on reality I have left.

Thanks for your critique of my comparison because it applies to your comparison of the Wii remote with 3D as well. I wanted to show that both are the same nonsensical reasoning. I couldn’t have done a better response pointing out the differences between 3D and the Wii remote which you introduced.

Look, Rob2600 tried to make the same argument with the NES controller and the N64 analog stick, now you with 3D. It just doesn't work.


Thank you for distilling all the problems your argument has into a single paragraph. I wish the rest of this thread was as succinct.

Does motion sensing have great potential? Probably, sure.

Was it marketed too early? What does tha even mean? Too early to live up to your expectations? Unless you can prove your expectations are the same as everybody elses, who cares?

Incapable of delivering richer gameplay beyond party games and only a marketing gimmick? Impossible to say after just a year. This is where your argument has absolutely no legs and why this thread is ridiculous. You may very well be right, but then again there may be some equivalent of Donkey Kong Country or Star Fox that shows the wiimote is capable of far beyond what you expected. You're ready to write the final chapter on a console that's still in it's opening paragraph.

And even if it doesn't deliver a richer gameplay experience, it may still deliver one that's quite a bit more fun, especially for the casual gamer. Which was the whole point, by the way.

We are way beyond every response you just delivered and they were refuted many times.

Look, first you escaped in branding dissenting posters in just plain inflexible, past-oriented gamers and reviewers disregarding their opinions. Every dialogue ends right there as I pointed out. Now you escape into the future where also no critique is possible.

Your answer to flaws and limitations of the Wii remote is a simple one – it is new technology, give it more time, developers will make better use of it, evaluations about the Wii if it is a success or failure are pre-mature. Again you refer to the future, lots of people think the motion sensing is a failure based on what was delivered so far.

If you emphasize future possibilities, noone can argue with you and it is besides the criticism of specific present games. The Wii motion sensing might work terrific in one or two years from now because developers learned to work around its severe limitations. We don’t know, let’s hope this is the case.

So far, all we can say is that the most successful system centered around motion sensing is a disappointment if we demand more precise controls surpassing the need of party games and the implementation of this technology in great games beyond trivial ways. Where the latter was tried, it just failed. Some think the Wii remote (not motion sensing in general) has still untapped potential, others are more skeptical. I think we can agree about the last paragraph, can’t we?

[lendelin]

The wii has a lot of hidden potential and a lot of quality games that are already making innovative use of the technology provided. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential for the controllers and sensor bar.

I insist the you, Lendelin in particular, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Your point of view on the subject matter seems to only be formulated from the playing of some of the basic party games and reading the reviews of jaded gaming journalists. As a member of the boards I would think someone would be above that and be able to provide a view based off first hand experience instead of some formulated collage of industry types reviews. Its the gamers that matter, not some silly reviewer.

Edited for grammatical reasons.

Daria already linked to this video because I stressed that motion sensing has great potential and we deserve much better than the motion sensing the Wii remote delivers. I responded to Darias' post.

How often can we stress that we don't dispute the potential of motion sensing at all? Is it so hard to understand nuanced positions? We evaluated the Wii remote as it is now and how it is used now in games. The video shows possibilities of the Wii remote used in a different technological way. You can't play something like that on the Wii.

We might get something like that with the Wii 2 or 3. I'd stand in line to play with motion sensing like that. It doesn't change the evaluations of the Wii remote and Wii games with motion sensing at all.

[djbeatmongrel]

i have one simple question for you. exactly what games have you played on the wii?

[lendelin]

i have one simple question for you. exactly what games have you played on the wii?

I don't own a Wii. I know three people who own one, among them neighbour whose adult children long left the house, and a befriended family with a 13 year old boy, and two daughters (16 and 18). The boy has a GC, a PS2, and now the Wii.

I mention this because it explains the games I played which are very different from my preferences.

Since I was very curious about the Wii I invested much more time playing with these guys than I usually do.

I played so far since the Wii was released

Wii Play
Wii Sports
Tiger Woods (08 or 07, can't remember)
Need for Speed Carbon
Table Tennis
Rayman Raving Rabbids
Mario Party 8
Pokemon Battle Revolution
Super Swing Golf
Red Steel
Soulcalibur Legends
Twilight Princess (just tried some motion sensing out, I played it on my GC)

and then one or two other games I can't remember at the moment.

Games on my must-have list are

Wii Play
Wii Sports
Zelda: Twilight Princess (G)
Super Paper Mario (G)
Metroid Prime 3 Corruption (G)
Super Mario Galaxy (G)
Endless Ocean
Zak and Wiki
Nights Journey into Dreams XX
Dragon Quest Swords
No More Heroes

RPGs
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn XX
Battalion Wars 2 XX


What is your point? (I suspect what's coming...in your own interest please think before you post.) :)

[blue lander]

Judgement calls about the technology and games in the last 16 months. Based on the experience so far, blissfulnoise and me made careful predictions about the quality of motion sensing short term, nothing more. We don’t know how motion sensing looks in Wii games three years from now, we are careful skeptics. You are a careless strong believer.

BS. You started this thread out by calling the wii a "Tragedy for game quality", the wiimote a dissapointment on all fronts, and the only reason the wii is succeeding is because of a marketing gimmick. That isn't skepticism, that's condemnation. You've already reached your conclusion a year into the system's life. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you're some scientist carefully debating the technical pros and cons of the wiimote, this thread is just a more wordy version of the ones 10 year olds post on a gamefaqs board saying "wii is teh suxxorz".


Your answer again: judgement calls about the Wii motion sensing are pre-mature, give it more time. Noone can argue with that, noone can work with thin air or punch a ghost.

No, specific judgment calls about the wii motion sensing aren't pre-mature. But making sweeping conclusions like "the wiimote is only good for simple party games" or "The wiimote is a dissapointment on all fronts" are.



So far, all we can say is that the most successful system centered around motion sensing is a disappointment if we demand more precise controls surpassing the need of party games and the implementation of this technology in great games beyond trivial ways.

You can say that in the same way that you can say a station wagon is a disappointment if you demand it to win the Indy 500, or in the same way you can say an Indycar is a disappointment if you demand it to carry groceries home or take the kids to soccer practice. It was designed for casual gamers who are into quick party games! Why can't you grasp that this console wasn't designed for you or your requirements?

[tom]

Hey Kid Ice, did you know that there is a spelling mistake in your avatar?

[blissfulnoise]

Point taken, but what do those limitations have to do with the controller only being good for gimmicky party games like whatshisface says? Would the wiimote provide a "richer game experience" (whatever that means) than a traditional controller if you could stand as far away from the screen as you'd like or play in a room where there's sunlight? Is it a "dissapointment on all fronts" because it doesn't work right all the time?

No, there is definately a potential in using the Wiimote for deeper interactions in games, but to a limited degree.

As Rob has already pointed out, playing games that require you to do excessive hand movements to play (e.g. the internet's holy grail Wii game - the lightsaber game) would be exercises in tedium.

No, the middle ground lies in subtle integration and clever implementation. A game I'd argue that only No More Heroes has gotten right so far. Super Mario Galaxy and Zelda come in a very close second.

As far as FPS games go, I haven't played Medal of Honor or Farcry on the Wii, but playing Metroid was very painful for me. The control scheme was way too cumbersome and the combination of pointing, moving, and random sensor interference ended up with me unintentionally running in circles ad nausum. Anyone who says that Metroid Prime 3 controls better than Call of Duty 4 on the PS3/360/PC with a straight face is a bold faced liar. I'm open to trying new types of FPS control schemes (though I think the Wii is best suited to raiil shooters) that the Wii comes up with, but from where I stand, MP3 was a outright failure.

And, no, the Wii isn't a total failure or a total disapointment. I'm very happy with a small number of games on the system despite techinical issues with the hardware. In the interest of full disclosure I'll cap up what I've played on the Wii.

Own:

Wii Sports, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, Dragon Ball Z 3, WarioWare: Smooth Moves, Metroid Prime 3, Super Paper Mario, NiGHTS: Journey in Dreams, Super Mario Galaxy, No More Heroes, and Endless Ocean

Played:

Madden 07, Tiger Woods 08, Super Swing Golf, Wii Play, Rayman: Raving Rabbids, ExciteTruck

It's also worth noting that I have a Xbox 360 (about 50 games/30 arcade games) and a PS3 (2 games/8 downloadable games).

Look, again, I like my Wii. And it doesn't really bother me that there is so much shovelware out there that makes very poor use of the controller (though it should bother Nintendo). And, yes, I think there are a very small handful of games that are using the Wiimote for something (slightly) beyond a simply gimmicky experience. Though they're rare, and none of them are really doing anything revolutionary.

[Volcanon]

Can somebody give me the tech specs for:

Wii
GC
PS3
XBOX360?

[blue lander]

I really don't feel like reading back through all your posts, Blissfulnoise, but I think we agree on pretty much everything. The wiimote has limitations (it apparently can't do a lot of things people were hoping it could, but good enough for the casual gamer), isn't utilized to its fullest potential by most titles (not suprising since it's been around for such a short time), and there may be many clever and entertaining ways the wiimote could be utilized that nobody here's even thinking of. On the other hand, there are a lot of insurmountable limitations that some people just can't live with, and it's possible developers will never learn how to develop for it. After all, it requires developers to be innovative and clever every time they make a game, and these are guys known for rehashing the same old crap year in and year out with slightly updated graphics.

The whole success/failure question isn't one we should be asking until the console really hits its stride, which is certainly not after one year. Even a conventional console like the PS3 or 360 shouldn't be judged at that point, let alone one that's gone in such a radical new direction.

[djbeatmongrel]

What is your point? (I suspect what's coming...in your own interest please think before you post.) :)

First of all, fuck you for saying that. I thought heavily about how to respond to it and I realized I don't like taking shit from a holier than thou ignoramus.

Back on topic, from what i have played through on the wii which is damn near everying you have listed so far i'll say with full confidence that most of what you have played really arent the best offerings of what the wii has in terms of quality. No More Heroes, Zak and Wiki, and Metriod prime corruptions are probably the best games on the system that make special use of the controls withough feeling tacked on. while there are other good games on the system, these three seem to go beyond my expectations in quality for the wii and heres why:

No More Heroes: Overall a fine tuned hack and slash game where the motion sensitive controls are only required for doing the wrestling grapples, your special ending sword swings and recharging your beam katana. But one of the innovative things i have seen is that before every boss you get a phone call the plays through the wiimote and out of reflex you end holding the controller to your ear like a phone to hear it clearly.

Zack & Wiki: Its a cool point and click movement styled adventure with a lot of puzzle solving elements. The controls range from a numerous amount of movements that naturally make sense when playing.

Metroid Prime 3 Corruption: the game is not only beautiful but is a fantastic FPS/FPA experience. Theres some nice little touches like tracing to wield destroyed circuits, pulling off shields with your grappling hook and other small things.

[lendelin]

BS. You started this thread out by calling the wii a "Tragedy for game quality", the wiimote a dissapointment on all fronts, and the only reason the wii is succeeding is because of a marketing gimmick. That isn't skepticism, that's condemnation. You've already reached your conclusion a year into the system's life. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you're some scientist carefully debating the technical pros and cons of the wiimote, this thread is just a more wordy version of the ones 10 year olds post on a gamefaqs board saying "wii is teh suxxorz".

This is your response (“BS”) to my statement that I evaluated the Wii motion sensing ONLY based upon games we have in our hands 16 months after its release? Didn’t you read that in my OP? Again, you are making up distracting scapegoats.

I said in my OP: “16 months after its release we can certainly say that the new control scheme is an utter disappointment on all fronts.” Did you read anything about predictions of the quality of Wii games three years from now? And if not, how is it possible for me to condemn the Wii too early as you allege?

All of the things I wrote aren’t FINAL judgement calls of the entire Wii life span of probably five years. They are judgement calls of the last 16 months.

You were clearly contradicted, and again, you shift to another issue and bring up the whole condemnation thing. Does this make sense to you?

You said it is pre-mature to judge the technology so early because “utilizing new technology are terrible failures...What kind of judgement calls can you possibly make from that?” I said the judgement calls of games released in the last 16 months.

You call it BS. Am I missing something? Your response is completely besides the point. You can disagree with me because I was too harsh with the Wii, but the alleged “condemnation” is based on games which were so far produced! I evaluated in every post only what is there! I’m not dealing in hopes or religious experiences, I deal with reality.

How long should I wait to evaluate the first 16 months of the Wii? One or two years from now? Am I allowed to say in two years that the motion sensing of Wii games were disappointing in the first year after its release but developers were able to work with it and implemented it in a fantastic way since then? OR that the motion sensing of Wii games were disappointing in the first year after its release and it never changed or even got worse since then?

Are we allowed to evaluate the motion sensing in Tiger Woods 08 or should we wait one year because the game hasn’t reached its full potential yet?

No matter how the Wii motion sensing will develop, no matter how motion sensing in general will develop, it doesn’t change ZILCH about the quality of motion sensing of the Wii so far.

You are overly enthusiastic and in constant defense mode. On the one hand you admit the technical limitations of the Wii mote (nothing else is the focus of the thread, nothing else was criticized by me and others), on the other hand you demand understanding for a “first iteration of new technology” which will be in 2018 THE “ubiquitous” standard of controls.

This is your problem right there. You believe so strongly in the Wii motion sensing as the first step on a glory road that it skews dissenting opinions. You cannot understand nuanced positions. You distract from responses. You are in a defense mode. You engage in circular argumentation and fall constantly back on your statements already made and present it as NEW responses.

If you can agree with blissfulnoise, you can also agree with me because I say nothing else.

Get it out of your head that I condemned the future of the Wii. I don’t know about the quality of future releases like House of The Dead 2 and 3 and so many other games on its list of future releases..

Lets forget about the nonsensical Indy car comparison. The wii is judged by what it is supposed to do, not what the PS3 is supposed to do or a rice farmer in Vietnam; otherwise you wouldn’t 1) admit that there are limitations of the technology, 2) developers wouldn’t try to do something with it and fail for the most part, 3) Miyamoto wouldn’t demand that motion sensing should be fully implemented.

Yeah, I’m afraid your response will be that developers just don’t try hard enough and are simply out to make a buck or just like it the way it is or are not open-minded enough or just need more time to discover the full potential of the new technology or that Miyamotos standards and intentiuons are not mine.

[lendelin]

First of all, fuck you for saying that. I thought heavily about how to respond to it and I realized I don't like taking shit from a holier than thou ignoramus.

Back on topic, from what i have played through on the wii which is damn near everying you have listed so far i'll say with full confidence that most of what you have played really arent the best offerings of what the wii has in terms of quality. No More Heroes, Zak and Wiki, and Metriod prime corruptions are probably the best games on the system that make special use of the controls withough feeling tacked on. while there are other good games on the system, these three seem to go beyond my expectations in quality for the wii and heres why:

No More Heroes: Overall a fine tuned hack and slash game where the motion sensitive controls are only required for doing the wrestling grapples, your special ending sword swings and recharging your beam katana. But one of the innovative things i have seen is that before every boss you get a phone call the plays through the wiimote and out of reflex you end holding the controller to your ear like a phone to hear it clearly.

Zack & Wiki: Its a cool point and click movement styled adventure with a lot of puzzle solving elements. The controls range from a numerous amount of movements that naturally make sense when playing.

Metroid Prime 3 Corruption: the game is not only beautiful but is a fantastic FPS/FPA experience. Theres some nice little touches like tracing to wield destroyed circuits, pulling off shields with your grappling hook and other small things.

I dislike the f-word, and all the other points you make were made days ago and got responses. There is absolutely nothing new there. In my OP I specifically addressed No More Heroes.

You can save valuable time to respond if you read what others said. It also makes for good responses; and if responses or the entire thread are too long to read, it still doesn't make sense to post in this case.

[blue lander]

Heh, you know a thread has gone down the crapper when people start nitpicking things other people said 20 posts ago, but here we go...


All of the things I wrote aren’t FINAL judgement calls of the entire Wii life span of probably five years. They are judgement calls of the last 16 months.

Because you're such a good writer, you put a summary of what your argument was in the third paragraph, just like I used to do when I had to write essays in high school...


I content that the economic success of the Wii is a tragedy for game quality and the popularity of games but has also some positive aspects for game development.

And that, not an evaluation of how the wiimote has been used in the last 16 months, is what this thread was about. And that's what I'm calling BS on.

And to further contradict your attempts to backpedal from the untenable position your OP put you in, you go on to say the wiimote is a marketing gimmick and nothing else. That is a final judgment call. If it's just a marketing gimmick and nothing else, then that's what it was conceived of, that's what it was when it was designed, that's what it is after 16 months, and that's what it is at the end of its lifespan.


You are overly enthusiastic and in constant defense mode. On the one hand you admit the technical limitations of the Wii mote (nothing else is the focus of the thread, nothing else was criticized by me and others), on the other hand you demand understanding for a “first iteration of new technology” which will be in 2018 THE “ubiquitous” standard of controls.

See above on the whole focus-of-the-thread thing. I don't blame you for trying to shift it to something less ridiculous, but there it is. And I base my personal opinion on the future of motion controls on the reaction by the public to the wii, not on the wii itself or its first 16 months games or it's wiimote. If I thought I could scrutinize a handful of launch titles and come to a conclusion about what games would look like in 2018, I'd be as mistaken as you are.


Lets forget about the nonsensical Indy car comparison. The wii is judged by what it is supposed to do, not what the PS3 is supposed to do or a rice farmer in Vietnam; otherwise you wouldn’t 1) admit that there are limitations of the technology, 2) developers wouldn’t try to do something with it and fail for the most part, 3) Miyamoto wouldn’t demand that motion sensing should be fully implemented.

Exactly, what it is supposed to do, not what you wish it did or what you expected it to. And while I'm beating this dead horse, 1) all new technologies have limitations making them less than ideal, 2) Developers always fail for the most part at first when they try something new, and 3)... well, I'd have to read the interview or wherever you're taking that from to make any remark on it.

And while I don't have a problem with swearing per se, I do have a problem with getting so upset about what some guy wrote on a message board, especially about a child's toy, especially about a child's toy that's such a raging success that it doesn't matter what any of us think about it, that I feel compelled to use them.

[djbeatmongrel]

Blue lander, you've gained my respect.
Lendelin, not so much.

[blue lander]

Woohoo! I wonder if the designers of the wii knew that something they created to help people have fun (the real mark of success, rather than just pushing as many polygons as possible) would lead to so much anger.

[djbeatmongrel]

Woohoo! I wonder if the designers of the wii knew that something they created to help people have fun (the real mark of success, rather than just pushing as many polygons as possible) would lead to so much anger.

I have this theory: the cuter, simpler, generally pure fun type of games/consoles cause you to become more irate at the drop of a hat. Just think of it next time you are cursing off a E rated platformer or something.LOL

[lendelin]

bluelander and djbeatmongrel, I once apologized for saying that you two hit the ignorant fanboylevel, which is different from calling someone an ignorant fanboy.

After I read your enlightening and emotional contributions, I call you two just little ignorant fanboys.

This is it for me, reasoning with you is futile.

I leave it to everyone who has the misfortune to read your posts to come to their own concluson and treat you in the future as such -- ignorant fanboys who delve into the resentment business, dividing gamers in good ones and bad ones, deflecting from the reaoning of others becasue they run out of arguments.

You made the DP site a very uncomfortable experience, and I think I'll not log as noften as I used to.

Intellectually you suffer from autism. I suggest you create your own thread praising Wii games and the glorious future of it in three years on the road to a even brighter future for gaming in 2025. And if someone dares to disagree with your group, you should just personally attack him and just ignore what he actually has to say. It is always good to read something into opinions which were never expressed in order to save your own.

Your reaction is only explainable because you lost hands-down a debate and can only delve into personal attacks.

Sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker and didn't grow up in America. But at least I have much more to refer to than High School essays, and unlike you I didn't stay on this level but moved on to College, two PHDs, and teaching experience in various Colleges for twenty years now. If you offer me to proof read one of my papers and articles, I politely decline. I leave that to others.

Talking to you two is like talking with someone about religion. The Wii seems to be a religious experience for you with hopes, dreams, and a future which promises paradise. You two are little missionaries who take gaming way too serious -- a suspicion I had when you attacked others as taking little toys too seriously. You are way too emotional -- a suspicion I had when you attacked others as being upset. You two are also intolerant -- a suspicion I had when you blamed others of intolerance.

You two cannot 1) think, 2) be fair, 3) pick up core points of others and respond in any meaningful way. I'm afraid with your learning curve and intelligence level that it will stay this way for a very long time.

I suggest to a moderator that this thread should be locked before I'm called an old videogame nerd again.

It was a good discussion until immature boys tried to deal with adults.

[blue lander]

You're right, this discussion is pointless. Finally we agree on something! Not because I'm an immature fanboy (I haven't actually liked a Nintendo console since the SNES, the N64 probably being my least favorite console ever), but because I read that other thread from three years ago where you predicted the demise of Nintendo with the same certainty and technical precision as you're proclaiming the failure of the wii now. Sad, but reality. This isn't speculation, no fanboy babble, it is the writing on the wall.... that's classic Lendelin! History has shown how disjointed your reality is from the one the rest of us live in.

[djbeatmongrel]

Fanboy no, someone who thoroughly enjoys the Wii, yes. I see the benefits and negatives of each system out now but the wii caters to my tastes overall. All i have been saying is try certain games out before you come to your conclusions that seem slightly short sighted given nintendo's surprise success with their other "gimmick" console the ds.

You have an incredible ability to spin around a persons post and make them seem wrong even when it's there personal view. It's almost as if you are the crappy clone of Bill O'Reiley.

Don't use your education to make a point in a conversation when its totally unrelated to it. It again not only makes you look like a holier than thou ignoramus but now you looks likea pompous ass. Good for you.

I would not call you an old videogame nerd because 1) it's a lame insult and most people who know me know i can do much better than that. 2) I wouldn't even call that an insult, and old videogame nerd would probably be more positively excitable and accepting of anything videogame related and refrain from doom saying like the crazy man on a soap box. Theres is no 3rd point although I know three seems to be the magic number for solid reasoning or atleast looks better in writing.

Really this thread shows that you have a noose around your neck and your soap box is creeking. How much longer till you hang yourself with your weighty words?

[PapaStu]

I suggest to a moderator that this thread should be locked before I'm called an old videogame nerd again.


I've heard worse than being called an old videogame nerd, but you guys are going around in a circle about opinions and nothing is going to change your opinions on this.

Yes this is new tech, yes this has some serious potential, yes its currently being poorly managed by many developers/publishers and yes there are games out there that are doing it correctly, right now.

Hows about we all take the high road on this as adults should do.

**Lockerooni**