ICED: Illegal Immigrants, thoughts?

[Kitsune Sniper]

As I've stated above, I have no problem with people trying to better themselves. However, illegals aren't coming into the country and providing anything but cheap labor. You stated above that many people wouldn't take the jobs given above, true in a sense but lets look at it in my perspective. Lets say magically all illegals were gone or became legal. Those more menial jobs might be able to get higher raises, benefits, unionize, and generate tax money for our government if they weren't being taken by illegals now. Your idea above wouldn't be bad (the one which groups could come in time to time), but it too has issues. Where are these people going to live, how much are they going to get paid, will they pay taxes, are they going to spend money to stimulate the American economy, how are you going to bring them back to Mexico, will they leave or will they stay, etc. Maybe there is a lot of "red tape" to get into the country, but wouldn't you state its worth it? You've lived in the states all your life, and know how it is to live in Mexico. Too me, illegals are basically convicts in a sense. If caught they can be deported/arrested. Wouldn't you want to come here, and have a "free" life? I appreciate your opinion, and hope you understand mine.

Those more menial jobs (crop picking, in my example) are minimum wage jobs, and they already have unions, and benefits. I don't know if illegals are unionized or not, I never asked my parents if that happened. Yep, I'm the child of two crop pickers, and damn proud of it.

And you misunderstood me, I've lived pretty much my entire life in Mexico, not in the USA.

As to leaving or staying in that dream work program I thought up, I'd do it this way:

When a worker is approved for the program, he gets a temporary work permit and work visa. Let's say the work visa is for... hm. Six months. The visa's validity begins the moment he steps into the US of A. He gets a job contract with a company, and the company notifies the government that the person is working for them.

A month or so before the visa expires, the company the person is working for has to notify the worker that his visa is about to expire so he or she can set up arrangements to return to his home country and file paperwork with the government that would tell them he or she is leaving on a certain date. Or, he could apply for an extended stay, depending on whether or not he got into trouble with the law, how good he is at his job, what the company says, etc. Also, depending on how he does, he might be able to apply for citizenship after a few trips or so.

If a person does not file the paperwork for leaving, or an extended visa, because they don't want to leave (not because of an emergency like being in the hospital - this would depend on the case, of course), once he's found out, he gets deported out of the country and not allowed to legally return for any reason (other than an emergency visit) for a few years. Let's say... two years punishment. Once those two years are up, he can apply for the work visa again, but the government will keep tabs on him in case he tries to pull this stunt again. And if the person crosses over illegally during the time he's supposed to stay out? Permanent expulsion from the US, and no more permits.

That's how I'd do it, but of course, this would vary depending on the case. *shrugs* There's lots of little details I don't know how would be handled, but this is how I'd start to work up a law to do this.

[mercarian]

It sounds like a "good" idea, but why would a person just illegally enter the country and not have to worry about applying for visa's/permits? I know your giving a best case scenario, but if a person enters the country, works and leaves illegally, they gained all benefits of your plan with no negative save for getting caught. This is one of those tricky situations.

[Kitsune Sniper]

It sounds like a "good" idea, but why would a person just illegally enter the country and not have to worry about applying for visa's/permits? I know your giving a best case scenario, but if a person enters the country, works and leaves illegally, they gained all benefits of your plan with no negative save for getting caught. This is one of those tricky situations.

Ah, but I did. Be able to work in the US and possibly apply for legal citizenship while they're working there.

Furthermore, any costs that this plan would entail could be absorbed by adding a small tax deduction to their paychecks.

[mercarian]

Ah, but I did. Be able to work in the US and possibly apply for legal citizenship while they're working there.

Interesting concept. I've actually privately thought of solutions for this issue in my spare time. I've always had a somewhat similar solution to yours, yet never considered the thought of maybe gaining legal citizenship. Very sound plan sir. I wonder if there are any true negatives to the plan. I'll have to think about it.

[Natty Bumppo]

All those jobs that you claim illegal immigrants "stole"? Guess what? No Americans would take them. I have never seen any typical American-born person of American (not South American, or what is often called "Latino") descent work as a crop picker, except for one or two black people every so often. The fields are filled with Mexicans and South Americans because no American (I hesitate to use the word "white") will work picking fields.


Where to begin? ^___^

Here are just three non-agricultural areas that illegals have driven out much of the legal work force - not because "legit" folk of all stripe won't do them, but because they can't afford to do them at the rates (and benefits or lack of them more accurately) that the illegals have pushed the jobs down to:*

1) Construction - most of the semi-skilled and unskilled jobs are now filled by illegals - in the past these were filled by legit folks - often minorities of various stripes - but legit minorities.
2) Restauraunt - the fast food joints speak for themselves -but even in better restauraunts the staff you don't see is very often illegal - the visible staff is usually not illegal. (Our wonderful mayor of Denver had an illegal working in the kitchen of one his haughty taughty restauraunts who murdered a Denver police officer in cold blood and skipped to Mexico. Denver City officials had to kowtow to Mexico to get them to (sorta) honor their treaty obligations and extradite the s.o.b. back to denver to stand trial for his misdeeds.)
3) Landscaping - Another industry largely taken over by illegals.

Sorry - the idea that all of the illegals (or even most) are employed in agricultural pursuits is at best disingenuous - just doesn't wash.

Who do you think did these jobs before the milllions of illegals invaded? I am assuming you are just young and never saw legit folk doing these things? (I used to do construction in my youth - quite frankly I couldn't support myself on the wages/benefits that the industry now pays. Why not? - I gotta pay for my own health coverage (I don't get it free at the emergency room like the illegals do (thanks to that scalawag currently residing on Pennsylvania Avenue), I gotta pay a full tax load because I can't claim 12 deductions on my W-4 since I am using a legit social security number, I gotta pay auto insurance (I don't get free auto insurance where all I gotta do is get out and run if I get in an accident I cause - I however can get sued by an illegal though if I hit him/her), I don't live in a house with 30 other people (never mind the fact that it was built for maybe four people) and I somehow don't get to break virtually all the zoning/housing ordinance regulations designed to provide a safe environment for all citizens (and illegals too if you think about it). (And in a unique Denver twist, if I were to get charged with a major crime (such as dealing heroin), I wouldn't get charged with "agricultural trespass" and cut loose. - I have yet to figure out where the agricultural land is in Denver - (only the criminal illegals can seem to find it oddly enough) - it is very much an urban county - but maybe I am just being picky.))

As an added historical footnote, the main reason that Reagan backed the amnesty bill in 1986 was because of pressure from large California growers to break Cesar Chavez's United Farm Workers of America Union (Note that it was not the United Farm Workers of Mexico Union) by legalizing illegals. Despite the duplicitious propaganda put out by some advocates of illegal immigration, Chavez was very much opposed to illegals - his organizers carried pocketfuls of dimes to call INS (remember that this was before the days of cells phones - and when pay phones were common - and shockingly perhaps - INS actually usually showed up) and the UFW often resorted to direct violence against the illegals (whom they viewed as scabs). The UFW even offered to serve as auxiliaries on the border to help the border patrol (which back then actually was allowed to do its job).
Guess what though - the illegals became legal, they stole most of the UFW's members jobs, drove agricultural wages down and broke the UFW. Don't believe me? - do some research.


*If this isn't happening in your neck of the woods yet, just wait. The closer you are to the border (or in a major city) the more this has happened. May not be happening in Podunk ,Wherever, but it is on its way.

[Natty Bumppo]

Sorry for the double post - it was somehow duplicated - someone please delete if you would be so kind.

[G-Boobie]

I'm a manager at a metal fabrication shop, and the vast bulk of our workforce are either illegal immigrants or very recent legal immigrants, both groups of hispanic origins. I cannot even begin to explain how complicated this makes my life. I'll leave it at that.

The two groups are defined thusly: Recent immigrants want to be citizens of the USA. The illegals do NOT want to be citizens: they want US dollars. That's a pretty important difference, and one that idiots on CNN often forget about when they discuss the immigrant 'problem'. If these people wantedto become Americans and join the population as legal citizens, I'd be far less totalitarian with my opinions. But they don't. They want our money, and they want to keep their identity as a citizen of Mexico, Ecuador, etc. etc. etc... Our country is a means to an end, and that is a HUGE fucking problem.

It's impossible to have a conversation about this subject on a message board without generalizing, so here are my two general cents: The recent immigrants are learning the language. They attempt to adopt what little culture we have here in the USA. They pay their taxes, and don't send all their cash to Mexico. They drive legal vehicles and are properly licensed and insured. In short, they are my kind of people, and I am perfectly OK with their existence. Welcome aboard.

On the other hand, we have the illegals: the non-citizens. They refuse to even try to speak the language. They make a point of refusing to adopt the culture, going so far as to refusing to flush fucking toilet paper. They work in the USA for a few years then return to their country of origin with all the money they've made, which is economically problematic for us here. They take jobs from real, legal citizens. I have seen this firsthand.

This is a problem: don't let idiots on the news tell you otherwise. Immigration laws are there for a reason.

To bring this back into the realm of video games, this is just another example of the media making a proverbial mountain out of a molehill. The game sucks: find it here (http:///www.icedgame.com/) and play it. It's a bad game. No one will learn anything from it other than they should play games that are good. All this article has done is ruffle the feathers of the people reading it, which is exactly what they wanted in the first place. Mission accomplished.

[bangtango]

May I ask you a question based on your thoughts? Why should people who live in a country, have a certain set of morals/codes/ethics, have to adapt to "immigrants." I get the point that schools are starting to push second languages at younger ages, being able to speak Spanish is a skill you can put onto a job application, and were becoming more dependent on cheap labor, but you really think I personally should coddle someone else? Just curious on your though train.

I don't know what you got out of my post but you must have misread it.

My point was it is stupid that people living in the US have to adapt to the Spanish language just because immigrants coming in here don't want to learn to speak English.

When I said, "We have to adapt to them", I was describing the current state of affairs as they are today. That was how I wanted it to come across. It wasn't a call to action saying all of us have got to start adapting.

[FantasiaWHT]

Thanks Bumpoo, for the correction. I was misled by the fact it's in Title 8 and not Title 18 (the criminal provisions of the US COde)

[cyberfluxor]

But pro-immigration groups disagree, saying the game could create intelligent and appropriate chatter. "I think this game could really be a useful tool to help people think about what the current immigration system is like," says Norman Eng of the New York Immigration Coalition.

I've been reading this thread off and on since it's original posting. It brings radical thinking out of the woodworks. Not neccessarily a "leftist view," just demand for massive rehaul of the current system in place. I would find it amusing a pro-immigration group would even begin to use this game as a political platform for discussion. It's games like this at faul that other titles like Zoo Race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVfV2OzEHwg) are made. /end bad joke

Other users like G-Boobie and Natty Bumppo I agree with quite a lot on.

Kitsune Sniper, you touch on some very good points, however to claim illegals takes jobs most US citizens won't is quite disrespectful. My brother lost his job as a landscaper twice (different companies) due to a lack of work that "side-laborers" were doing. And with crops behind my house and up the roads it's a "pick your own" situation. Most of the larger fields have an upkeep by machines and not mass labor, so I'll agree it's just a different environment than that of south/southwest states/regions. I've yet to even see an advertisement for working in the fields and throughout public school we had a demographic of farm boys that were to inherit the family farm. I recall them not caring much about advancing their education afterwards because learning to fly planes, work machinery, driving trucks, and many other tasks were what their family wanted them to know and be prepared to deal with. But this topic does go father and beyond what a simple forum board can read as, so I'll just end there before I bore others (who's even read this much).

So my view is that there does need to be change in immigration, some stricter and some more laxed rules. A better worker program would also be a great opportunity for not just South Americans, but other world-wide countries. The larger issue is if politics abroad in these other countries can work out deals that'll satisfy these changes, as the scope of change is more than just "oh, let them come" or "darnit, keep them away," which is what most popular views are.

[Kitsune Sniper]

cyberfluxor, please don't take offense at what I said. My examples were for jobs that really, almost no American would take. I wasn't taking jobs like landscaping into consideration. You made a good point, and I apologize if I seemed disrespectful at your brother's situation.

Your location says that you're in Virginia. Things are very different up there, I imagine. Down here there isn't a, well, "family" mindset to crop picking and whatnot. This is why my view of this is different... down here lots of companies advertise that they need crop pickers and whatnot everywhere using bulletins and even ads in the paper. Fields are owned by medium and large companies, not individuals.

Again, apologies.

[cyberfluxor]

It's all good. He now works at an auto shop, which is more so of where he wants to be. He didn't mind the work and pay, but cars are his hobby so he would have left at some point.

A larger concern that goes on regardless is payment under the table, or unrecorded expenses and/or revenue. This gives employers the ability to cheat taxes and employee benefits in addition to phasing legal citizens out and using cheaper, illegal workers. This is another topic all together but it does entice more illegals to migrate to a region.

[Ed Oscuro]

Politics + braindead game design = perfect fit! Someday people are going to realize that you either make games or you make movies. Or maybe people will stop reporting the appearance of social engineering as gaming as "interesting" - that's probably not going to happen since game sites like gamepolitics started taking gaming seriously.

p.s. America is a nation of immigrants, all of us are, but the real issue is that there might be an upcoming resource crunch and we'll all have to learn to cope.

[noname11]

I was wondering why people seem to focus on the lower paying jobs immigrants take.


personally, the only time my friends ever come across competition for jobs from any immigrants is when they apply to engineering/tech jobs. some people work for visas and like 2/3 the pay, and that is scary ...


that and the fact that xray interpretation is sometimes outsourced to other countries ... us doctors just ratify what they observe.

honestly, why worry about food service/lanscaping? I think there are bigger issues [globalization, the state of the US economy] in which immigration, although it catches most of the headlines, is only a part of the issue.

[G-Boobie]

p.s. America is a nation of immigrants, all of us are, but the real issue is that there might be an upcoming resource crunch and we'll all have to learn to cope.


We're all a nation of immigrants, huh? PC cop out. You have to stop being an immigrant and start being a citizen at some point. Otherwise no one in England would cop to being English: they'd all claim to be Normans. The US is the only country where you get an ancestral roll call when you ask a 'citizen' what nationality they are; for some reason only Militia types proudly say "American", and they're fucking crazy.

Here's the less than radio friendly version of our current 'culture war'. We moved here and killed the people who lived here before us. If we didn't kill them, we killed their culture. We did this because it's human nature. Now, our culture is under attack. Some call it karma or just desserts. I call it pretty much inevitable: our culture is so transparent, over stimulated and shallow that we've taken to glorifying the worst parts of our own ghetto subculture for fun. That, my friends, is fucked up by anyone's standards.

Has anyone else even played this game? It's so removed from the reality of the situation that it mocks itself, as you play it, because the people who made it have no idea about the reality they're representing with their game. No one who's crossed the border in a van with a false door or at night over the river would even touch that shit: they don't have any idealistic illusions about their lives. THEY know they're criminals, and they don't care. They make three or four times what they would in their own country in conditions that are far better, all the while living like kings. Honestly, if our positions were reversed, I'd be doing the same thing.

But that doesn't make it right. It just makes me an asshole.

/rant. Sorry bout that. Let the recrimination begin!!