Kojima: MGS4 too big for 50 GB Blu-ray disc [Joystiq]

[DP ServBot]

Filed under: Sony PlayStation 3 (http://www.joystiq.com/category/ps3/), Action (http://www.joystiq.com/category/action/)
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2008/03/gam_kojimaportrait_225.jpg (http://ps3.qj.net/Hideo-Kojima-Blu-ray-doesn-t-have-enough-space-for-Metal-Gear-Solid-4/pg/49/aid/114921)It's not much of a shocker to learn the latest (and final) installment in the Metal Gear Solid series is a sizable one -- MGS games have a history of being big (and beautiful) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcRiXOONqf0). However, a recent interview with series creator Hideo Kojima revealed a startling fact (http://ps3.qj.net/Hideo-Kojima-Blu-ray-doesn-t-have-enough-space-for-Metal-Gear-Solid-4/pg/49/aid/114921) about MGS4 (http://www.joystiq.com/tag/MGS4/) -- Kojima complained that a few features had to be cut from the game so it would fit on a Blu-ray disc. As format fanatics already know, that means the game takes up nearly 50 gigabytes of space.

If true, this is bad news for anyone who hoped to see anthropomorphic cow-bots (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/09/19/metal-gear-solid-4-trailer-leaks-onto-net/) on the 360 (unless that data was divided between about five dual-layer DVDs), but it could also mean a painfully long installation time for PS3 owners as well. We can only imagine that 49 of those gigabytes are taken up by thousands of variations on just three lines of dialogue -- "Snake? SNAKE? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE (http://mgbueller.ytmnd.com/)!?"

[Thanks, Beau Kebodeaux] (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45754)

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[Rob2600]

Wow. There's no practical reason why even a complex video game like Metal Gear can't fit on a 50 GB disc.

[RadiantSvgun]

Wow. There's no practical reason why even a complex video game like Metal Gear can't fit on a 50 GB disc.

Thats what I was thinking.

Instead of churning out more metal gear, where is the next in the Snatcher series?

[roushimsx]

Wow. There's no practical reason why even a complex video game like Metal Gear can't fit on a 50 GB disc.

The only thing I can think of is a bunch of 1080p prerendered videos or lots of redundant data to reduce loading and eliminate the need for installing. Other than that...shit...maybe someone just really loves using TIFFs for textures.


Instead of churning out more metal gear, where is the next in the Snatcher series?

He's probably waiting for another Blade Runner film to be made (perhaps based on Jeter's books) so he'll have something to rip from.

[PapaStu]

Wow. There's no practical reason why even a complex video game like Metal Gear can't fit on a 50 GB disc.

What are you talking about!?! MGS2 spent the last 30 minutes of the game in a cut scene after fighting the Metal Gears. I expect this the 'final' Metal Gear Solid game to easily be a 2 hour movie, just to 'wrap' things up.

[RadiantSvgun]

The only thing I can think of is a bunch of 1080p prerendered videos or lots of redundant data to reduce loading and eliminate the need for installing. Other than that...shit...maybe someone just really loves using TIFFs for textures.



He's probably waiting for another Blade Runner film to be made (perhaps based on Jeter's books) so he'll have something to rip from.

I hope so, I heard he didn't want to do anything more with the Snatcher/policenauts series.

I wonder what he had to cut out? All of the other games so far can be finished in one sitting.

[G-Boobie]

Wow. There's no practical reason why even a complex video game like Metal Gear can't fit on a 50 GB disc.

Yer nuts. With uncompressed art assets, cut scenes, and sound data, and including the Metal Gear Online starter pack or what have you, its perfectly reasonable.

[Rob2600]

Yer nuts. With uncompressed art assets, cut scenes, and sound data, and including the Metal Gear Online starter pack or what have you, its perfectly reasonable.

Why would art, video, or cut scenes be uncompressed? Like I said, there's no practical reason.

[kedawa]

Yer nuts. With uncompressed art assets, cut scenes, and sound data, and including the Metal Gear Online starter pack or what have you, its perfectly reasonable.

No, it's not.

50GB is more than four times the size of a Crysis install.

[Ed Oscuro]

I haven't yet seen a PC game that used more than 8 GB of uncompressed data.

50 GB on a system with 512MB RAM (total, non-unified memory system)...ouch, lots of loading will be happening.

From the standpoint of the cost this development must be taking...is Metal Gear Solid 4 the new Shenmue? :P

[zektor]

The only reason they would need more than 50GB for the game would be if they got all loosey goosey, uncompressed everything, and simply wasted space like no tomorrow. These guys should try to fit a playable game inside of 4kb!

[Icarus Moonsight]

Maybe a money-hat from Sony was involved. Think about it, if the game can't be presented on a single dual layer BR disk then that greatly decreases the chances of a port. Of course, Konami could compress the resources to make it fit on less DVDs but, then the AV nuts, tech whores and Sony funboys (fanboys - that was intentional) will point out that it's an inferior version. If a port can be blocked, they gain. If a port is still made they don't really gain much but, they can claim victory in having the superior version. Then again, I could be out on my ear on this too so, make up your own melons m'kay? :p

[ProgrammingAce]

For resistance, uncompressed each level was over 20 gig. Compressed, the whole thing fit on a bluray with plenty of space to spare.

When your game has been in development this long, you need an excuse when you need to start cutting features. My bet is on the fact they need to cut features to make the launch date, space has always been the common excuse. It just sounds much more ridiculous when your platform offers 50 gig.

[Ed Oscuro]

When your game has been in development this long, you need an excuse when you need to start cutting features.
Heh, hadn't thought of that.

Wow, the ego-tripper himself going on a spin trip...I shall savor this thought o_O

[Daltone]

That's a whole lot of pretentious rambling. There's probably a 13 hour lecture about love blooming on the battlefield and an in-depth rendering of Snake's 'tasche... Why did MGS turn into such a joke?

[geneshifter]

For resistance, uncompressed each level was over 20 gig. Compressed, the whole thing fit on a bluray with plenty of space to spare.

When your game has been in development this long, you need an excuse when you need to start cutting features. My bet is on the fact they need to cut features to make the launch date, space has always been the common excuse. It just sounds much more ridiculous when your platform offers 50 gig.

I agree with this. This is just so stupid. Hasn't the guy ever heard of putting a game on 2 discs?? He's covering up something bad IMHO.

[Lothars]

I agree with this. This is just so stupid. Hasn't the guy ever heard of putting a game on 2 discs?? He's covering up something bad IMHO.

:roll:

Okay... why would it be covering up something bad? I think that your posts make no sense that it's something bad happening. with it

[heybtbm]

Hey, at least it's not coming out for the 360...

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8227/mgs4360ov1.jpg

[geneshifter]

:roll:

Okay... why would it be covering up something bad? I think that your posts make no sense that it's something bad happening. with it

Cutting out stuff so that it fits a disc is dumb. Especially with it being the culmination of the series. Just give us everything.

[Clownzilla]

Give me a break! We have come to a sad state of game production when a game can't fit into a 50GB space! I honestly think that the introduction of optical discs have been a curse on gaming, creating a programming culture of being lazy and using graphics as a crutch for poor game play. Any self respecting programmer would *gasp* SACRIFICE GRAPHICS FOR OPTIMAL CONTENT AND GAME PLAY! Of coarse, this has apparently became a thing of the past, even for a legendary developer like Konami.

[geneshifter]

Give me a break! We have come to a sad state of game production when a game can't fit into a 50GB space! I honestly think that the introduction of optical discs have been a curse on gaming, creating a programming culture of being lazy and using graphics as a crutch for poor game play. Any self respecting programmer would *gasp* SACRIFICE GRAPHICS FOR OPTIMAL CONTENT AND GAME PLAY! Of coarse, this has apparently became a thing of the past, even for a legendary developer like Konami.

This is exactly why I made my previous comment. I'm not the only one getting worried when I see BS complaints like "it won't fit on the disc." But, hopefully, it will be a great ending to the series. I'm waiting for the sweet MGS4 PS3 bundle in June.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Hey, at least it's not coming out for the 360...

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8227/mgs4360ov1.jpg

Individual disks are labeled after classic composers. How cryptic! :p

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Wait wait wait ... why would it have to "fit" on ONE disc??

It's 2008, it's not like we've never played through action adventure games that span the length of TWO discs ... sometimes even THREE or FOUR.

Is there some restriction I'm un-aware of with Sony not allowing multi-disc games on the PS3?

[Borman]

Is it really that ridiculous? Lost Odyssey on the 360 takes 4x DVD-DL

[ProgrammingAce]

Is it really that ridiculous? Lost Odyssey on the 360 takes 4x DVD-DL

That's just as ridiculous, if not worse. It's the strange japanese design philosophy that cutscenes have to be pre-rendered. American designers learned to work within the medium, japanese designers pre-render everything and sometimes take multiple discs.

It's one of the strange differences between eastern and western dev houses.

[Icarus Moonsight]

When a disk's capacity is 25-50GB then yes. I thought the appeal of the BR media was not needing more than one disk? I mean hell, pressing a dvd isn't much more expensive than pressing 5 or even a dozen. So what is the point of a 25-50GB disk when 5 to 10 4.8GB disks will do the same job with cheaper hardware components? It offers nothing in the gaming sphere over DVD IMO. Movies the difference is obvious with the proper set-up. Games not so much.

Installation of games on a console? Now can somebody tell me WTF is that about huh!? I'm fine with caching and paging using the HD as a buffer but, outright installs? It's blasphemy I tell you! :p Oh look! The consoles are acting so grown up playing house... it thinks it's a PC, isn't that cute. :D *sunshine*

[Rob2600]

maybe someone just really loves using TIFFs for textures.

Even TIFFs can be saved using lossless LZW or ZIP compression. :)


Is it really that ridiculous? Lost Odyssey on the 360 takes 4x DVD-DL

Four dual layer DVDs is 31.8 GB total. That's ridiculous. Metal Gear Solid 4 supposedly can't fit on a 50 GB Blu-ray disc. That's also ridiculous.


It's the strange japanese design philosophy that cutscenes have to be pre-rendered. American designers learned to work within the medium, japanese designers pre-render everything

Why do some developers record a real-time cut scene and then save it as a pre-rendered video file? Why not just let the scene play in real-time, like it did in the first place? I don't get it.

[ProgrammingAce]

Why do some developers record a real-time cut scene and then save it as a pre-rendered video file? Why not just let the scene play in real-time, like it did in the first place? I don't get it.

The answer isn't really going to solve the question...

Because japanese developers tend to farm out the cut scenes. They give the render farms access to the in-game models but since the engine isn't complete, they have to use a different method of rendering the scene. Or, sometimes the ingame engine isn't capable of moving the character models around like the developers want, so they use a different engine and pre-render the scene.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

When a disk's capacity is 25-50GB then yes. I thought the appeal of the BR media was not needing more than one disk? I mean hell, pressing a dvd isn't much more expensive than pressing 5 or even a dozen. So what is the point of a 25-50GB disk when 5 to 10 4.8GB disks will do the same job with cheaper hardware components? It offers nothing in the gaming sphere over DVD IMO. Movies the difference is obvious with the proper set-up. Games not so much.

Installation of games on a console? Now can somebody tell me WTF is that about huh!? I'm fine with caching and paging using the HD as a buffer but, outright installs? It's blasphemy I tell you! :p Oh look! The consoles are acting so grown up playing house... it thinks it's a PC, isn't that cute. :D *sunshine*

The massive capacity of Blu-Ray discs wasn't intended to prevent multi-disc games any more than CD or DVD based media were meant to relegate games to one disc if the developer chose not to go that route.

Media size should in no way "constrain" the size of a game if the game remains within a reasonable standard (I'd say 2-4 discs). Yes, the Blu-Ray Disc is the largest capacity optical media on a home gaming console, however, I see NO problem with a game like Metal Gear 4 spanning 2 or 3 discs for WHATEVER reasons it needs to.

Calling the need, the choice, or the desire by a developer to use multiple discs per game "ridiculous" is just silly.

As I stated (and people seemed to ignore) ... it's 2008. We've ALL played through games spanning multiple discs for whatever reason, why does it freaking matter if you you have to swap out ONCE (maybe twice) during a game that's going to take 40+ hours to complete ... and if you're looking forward to this games eventual release on 360, it should already be an expectation that it's going to be on multiple discs.

I'm sure as long as disc-based-media is used on consoles (especially ones with optional OR varying HDD sizes), that developers will find ways to exceed the limits of a single disc.

[Lothars]

That's just as ridiculous, if not worse. It's the strange japanese design philosophy that cutscenes have to be pre-rendered. American designers learned to work within the medium, japanese designers pre-render everything and sometimes take multiple discs.

It's one of the strange differences between eastern and western dev houses.

There's nothing wrong with multiple discs, I don't see what's wrong with that and I don't see why it's a strange difference, but multiple discs are not a ridiculous thing or a bad thing at all.

[Lothars]

Even TIFFs can be saved using lossless LZW or ZIP compression. :)



Four dual layer DVDs is 31.8 GB total. That's ridiculous. Metal Gear Solid 4 supposedly can't fit on a 50 GB Blu-ray disc. That's also ridiculous.



Why do some developers record a real-time cut scene and then save it as a pre-rendered video file? Why not just let the scene play in real-time, like it did in the first place? I don't get it.

Man that's I think that's just a bad stance, why is it ridiculous that it can be on multiple discs

I don't think more than one disc is a bad thing, heck for games like Lost Odyssey it's a good thing.

[ProgrammingAce]

Because in this day and age, if you can't fit your game inside 50 GIGABYTES of data, you're doing something wrong.

If you have to start cutting features, which is what kojima is doing, because your game is larger then 50 gig, you fail. You can have games larger then the disc size if you plan it ahead of time, but to be 4 months from release date and have to start cutting features due to *size* constraints, you fail as a game producer.

No ifs, ands, or buts.

I think kojima is better then that, which is why i think the size issue is a cover story.

You have to remember, video games are budgeted down to the CPU cycle. That includes memory requirements. Well before the art department started working on the game, they were given a chunk of the 50 gig to work with. If they've gone over that budget, then someone in the design team failed.

[cyberfluxor]

Where's the technology logic? If you give programmers that extra space, they'll use it. Boost the computation power, they'll use it. Increase the communications speeds, they'll use it. As supply increases the demand follows, and these trends will continue. Expect the 1TB HDDs comming out yesteryear to eventually be small. It's a crazy conception today by most but it'll happen.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Speculations abound, the only REAL QUESTION(s) I see here are :

WHY CUT FEATURES?

WHY SEMI-GIMP WHAT IS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE A LOCK FOR PS3 GOTY?

WHY NOT JUST ADD ANOTHER DISC TO THE GAME?

You can all sling mud at Kojima and company with your "UR NOT DOIN IT RITE!" all day long over disc capacity and compressed/uncompressed/real-time/pre-rendered whatnots ...

... but it seems that this entire thing could be solved by the addition of a second Blu-Ray in the package.

Is there any type of confirmation that Sony is blocking that from happening, or that Kojima has some type of strange pride-based-issue with it?

[evil_genius]

Could be bullshit. Just to get people talking about it.

[spoon]

Seems to me this story was brought about to hush the "It's coming to 360." rumors. This way people won't wait for the port and buy the game. More importantly, this title is obviously a system seller. Hell, it has it's own bundle.

This game has been delayed and hyped so long, you'd think it was coming out on a Nintendo console. :P

Also, remember when it was a big deal about Resistance not being able to fit on a 360 disc. I thought some of the files on that disc were there just to take up space anyhow. I don't remember how much was sad to be padding. First is was pretty damn high, then, it seemed to be a lot lower?

[mailman187666]

it could be that some of those features will be used as downloadable content or saved for when they come out with Metal Gear Solid 4: Substance Limited collectors yada yada. If space was really a major issue, why not put a little slip of paper in each copy of the game with a code or something and make all the missing features downloadable through PSN. The only feature I've heard of being cut out of the English and European versions so far was the Japanese dialouge. Don't know about you guys but if its little things like this that are being taken out, then who cares really? I personally don't need to play the game through without understanding what they are talking about.

[spoon]

...I personally don't need to play the game through without understanding what they are talking about.

That's gonna happen regardless.

[Clownzilla]

Gameplay and content should ALWAYS trump graphics. This is BS! This is a giant step in the wrong direction for Konami and the gaming industry as a whole. I don't think many people realize how much 50 GB REALLY is! How could anybody support this?

[Cryomancer]

it could be that some of those features will be used as downloadable content or saved for when they come out with Metal Gear Solid 4: Substance Limited collectors yada yada. If space was really a major issue, why not put a little slip of paper in each copy of the game with a code or something and make all the missing features downloadable through PSN. The only feature I've heard of being cut out of the English and European versions so far was the Japanese dialouge. Don't know about you guys but if its little things like this that are being taken out, then who cares really? I personally don't need to play the game through without understanding what they are talking about.

Personally I think dubs are kind of a pain in the ass. It adds extra costs and delay to a release, when (let's say we're talking about an RPG or something) much of the audience who wants the game doesn't want english voices to begin with. If they got 50 gigs, there should at least be some damn language options.

[Nick Goracke]

Where's the technology logic? If you give programmers that extra space, they'll use it. Boost the computation power, they'll use it. Increase the communications speeds, they'll use it. As supply increases the demand follows, and these trends will continue. Expect the 1TB HDDs comming out yesteryear to eventually be small. It's a crazy conception today by most but it'll happen.

Probably the only post in this thread that's based in reality.

Now lets calmly address the other complaints brought forth in this thread:

1) Why cut features? What percent of games do you think haven't cut features due to space, time, budget, or hardware constraints in the past 20 years? 0. The fact that this is even news has everything to do with a perfectionist producer ruminating on what could have been done in a perfect world, and nothing to do with a failing of his team.

2) Why not add a second disc? The reality is, it's not a trivial fix. What impact does this have on testing? A big one. Programming? A big one. What data is mutually exclusive from Disc 1 to Disc 2? Voice data? Pre-rendered cut-scenes (all are supposed to be done with the in-game engine and interactive, so this may be a moot point)? Select textures? Is splitting that data up between two discs actually going to free up enough space for whatever is being cut? Probably not. If a game is 60 gigs, you CANNOT simply put 30 gigs of data on each disk and call it a day. People need to understand this.

[robotriot]

I still vividly remember juggling with Monkey Island 2's 12 floppy disks (including savegame disk), so two BRs should be reasonable to handle for gamers today. However, considering that you can fit an entire first person shooter in 96kb (http://kk.kema.at/files/kkrieger-beta.zip), it's a really lousy job by the programmers if 50GB are insufficient.

[Rob2600]

in this day and age, if you can't fit your game inside 50 GIGABYTES of data, you're doing something wrong.


I don't think many people realize how much 50 GB REALLY is!


considering that you can fit an entire first person shooter in 96kb (http://kk.kema.at/files/kkrieger-beta.zip), it's a really lousy job by the programmers if 50GB are insufficient.

Exactly. 50 GB is huge. Four years ago, that was an entire computer hard drive! 6,400 copies of Super Mario 64 could fit on a 50 GB disc.

To me, a 50+ GB video game is the ultimate in bloatware. Talented developers, programmers, and artists should know how to optimize data. I support progress...I really do...but I also support tight programming and audio/video optimization.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Probably the only post in this thread that's based in reality.

Now lets calmly address the other complaints brought forth in this thread:

1) Why cut features? What percent of games do you think haven't cut features due to space, time, budget, or hardware constraints in the past 20 years? 0. The fact that this is even news has everything to do with a perfectionist producer ruminating on what could have been done in a perfect world, and nothing to do with a failing of his team.

2) Why not add a second disc? The reality is, it's not a trivial fix. What impact does this have on testing? A big one. Programming? A big one. What data is mutually exclusive from Disc 1 to Disc 2? Voice data? Pre-rendered cut-scenes (all are supposed to be done with the in-game engine and interactive, so this may be a moot point)? Select textures? Is splitting that data up between two discs actually going to free up enough space for whatever is being cut? Probably not. If a game is 60 gigs, you CANNOT simply put 30 gigs of data on each disk and call it a day. People need to understand this.

All PS3's have a minimum of 20 Gigs of HDD space right out of the box, and a majority of them have 60 Gigs or more.

Any number of program objects (textures, audio, music, etc.) can be sent there on initial install to load as needed.

Sorry, I'm just not buying that the extra 50 Gigs of space in a second Blu-Ray wouldn't alleviate whatever issues they're having with space.

Would that mean more development time? More delays? Maybe ... but if Kojima is publicly bitching about having to cut things, there's no reason why extra discs aren't a viable solution.

And, as far as what responses are grounded "in reality" ... the fact that we know little to nothing about WHAT is being cut and WHY means that every response here isn't grounded in anything "real" or otherwise ... until we get more info.

[geneshifter]

As a dev myself (not games) I don't buy any of this. Splitting up content and programming for 2 discs is not THAT big of a deal. Unless, of course, they seriously suck at programming.


Probably the only post in this thread that's based in reality.

Now lets calmly address the other complaints brought forth in this thread:

1) Why cut features? What percent of games do you think haven't cut features due to space, time, budget, or hardware constraints in the past 20 years? 0. The fact that this is even news has everything to do with a perfectionist producer ruminating on what could have been done in a perfect world, and nothing to do with a failing of his team.

2) Why not add a second disc? The reality is, it's not a trivial fix. What impact does this have on testing? A big one. Programming? A big one. What data is mutually exclusive from Disc 1 to Disc 2? Voice data? Pre-rendered cut-scenes (all are supposed to be done with the in-game engine and interactive, so this may be a moot point)? Select textures? Is splitting that data up between two discs actually going to free up enough space for whatever is being cut? Probably not. If a game is 60 gigs, you CANNOT simply put 30 gigs of data on each disk and call it a day. People need to understand this.

[Nick Goracke]

Sorry, I'm just not buying that the extra 50 Gigs of space in a second Blu-Ray wouldn't alleviate whatever issues they're having with space.


Maybe you get it and we're just talking over each other, but I have to say it again: an extra disc is not an extra 50 gigs of space. It is not as simple as splitting data between 2 discs - most, most, MOST of it will be redundant.

Back to the "reality" comment, though. Those who say "50 Gigs is huge! Other games have been done with much left space! They're doing it wrong!" simply don't get it. They don't.

[Nick Goracke]

As a dev myself (not games) I don't buy any of this. Splitting up content and programming for 2 discs is not THAT big of a deal. Unless, of course, they seriously suck at programming.

I'll just copy, paste, and add underlines to my first post, then, and let you refute the key points.

2) Why not add a second disc? The reality is, it's not a trivial fix. What impact does this have on testing? A big one. Programming? A big one. What data is mutually exclusive from Disc 1 to Disc 2? Voice data? Pre-rendered cut-scenes (all are supposed to be done with the in-game engine and interactive, so this may be a moot point)? Select textures? Is splitting that data up between two discs actually going to free up enough space for whatever is being cut? Probably not. If a game is 60 gigs, you CANNOT simply put 30 gigs of data on each disk and call it a day. People need to understand this.


And I'll add this - is it financially wise to introduce this risk 3 months before release? It's not a trivial fix, and not likely to increase sales...

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Nick,

I never denied the potential for it to require further delays or more development to split the game onto two discs. In fact, if you re-read my responses I clearly speculate that point.

I've waited this long for the game, another few months isn't going to kill me.

People will buy this one WHENEVER it comes out.

BUT, since you're so confidently knowledgeable about how the PS3's data usage both on disc and via HDD works, as well as the process of taking a game that's close to complete and re-coding it to span two discs, might I ask where this wealth of knowledge stems from?

Are you a game programmer/designer/coder? And if so, what have you worked on for PS3?

[Poofta!]

For resistance, uncompressed each level was over 20 gig. Compressed, the whole thing fit on a bluray with plenty of space to spare.

When your game has been in development this long, you need an excuse when you need to start cutting features. My bet is on the fact they need to cut features to make the launch date, space has always been the common excuse. It just sounds much more ridiculous when your platform offers 50 gig.

i agree with this 100%.


if not, then the disc is filled with 1080p videos and TIFFs (as mentioned)

[Berserker]

I also think it's more than likely just HD video. There's a reason they had to invent such a high-capacity media to store this stuff.

A PC install of Oblivion is somewhere under 10gb, so 50 would be over five Oblivions. This logic's sketchy because we're talking about different games, but I think the point stands well enough regardless. There's no way that's pure game content.

[G-Boobie]

Of course, we've wasted hours of combined time here, talking shit about some off the cuff, random comment that no one can actually place in proper context.

[Nick Goracke]

BUT, since you're so confidently knowledgeable about how the PS3's data usage both on disc and via HDD works, as well as the process of taking a game that's close to complete and re-coding it to span two discs, might I ask where this wealth of knowledge stems from?


I do this for a living... but don't take my word for it - think about it yourself! When developing a game, you have "x" amount of data that is guaranteed to be only used once. This data can be spread out among multiple discs. You have "y" amount of data that could be accessed at any time. This data is required to be on each disc. Data stored on 1 disc is "x + y". Move the game to two discs and you have "50GB - (x/2 + y)" of extra free space. If "x" isn't a big number, you really haven't gained much.

Storing data on the HDD is also a possiblity, but you are limited in how much data can reside there by the lowest common denominator (20GB minus OS/App install space in this case) and other game installs. Plus, a good portion of what you put onto the HDD will be reserved data which you want to access quickly...

And finally, when you start removing data from a disc and putting it onto other sources (a separate disc or HDD), you open yourself up to all sorts of new testing AND regression testing... and potential defects. Degree of difficulty is low, but the threshhold for what goes in and what stays out gets higher and higher as the release gets closer and closer.

The point?

Don't assume that adding a second disc solves the space problem (although it could, depending on what is taking up all the space)
Don't assume that storing data on the HDD solves the space problem (although it could, depending on how much space you need)
Trying to solve the space problem with the 2 methods above just 3 months before release so you can fit in some extra content is not smart.

I think you get this already; I just want to make sure I'm being clear. ;)

And folks, 50 GB games are going to be par for the course by the time next generation systems arrive - just because we spend more time playing SNES than XBox 360 doesn't mean we can't be forward thinkers!

[Nick Goracke]

Of course, we've wasted hours of combined time here, talking shit about some off the cuff, random comment that no one can actually place in proper context.

Wasting time posting about other people wasting time is usually a waste, but maybe not in this case! ;)

When was the last time you saw the gaming media really delve into one of these off-the-cuff comments during an interview? Next Generation had a knack for it something like 10 years ago... but there was never really anything like it before or after.

(Disclaimer: I seem to remember Dan Hsu doing this recently with Sony and Microsoft reps, and both interviews were very interesting reads)

[Wraith Storm]

Hey, at least it's not coming out for the 360...

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8227/mgs4360ov1.jpg

^
HOLY CRAP that is AWESOME!!!!! If it came out on the 360 in a 20 disc set like that I would buy it in a heart beat. PS3 owners might brag that ALL of their game fit on one disc... but it certianly wouldn't look half as intimidating setting on the shelf.

[DonMarco]

three thoughts:

Even if Lost Odyssey was on 4 DVD DLs, I would still imagine that it costs less that one DL Blu-ray discs or two regular discs. If it is a matter of packaging the game with two Blu-ray discs, it would be nearly impossible for the price to stay under $60. Add that to the billion pre-orders and hype, I don't think it would be that popular a move on their part. Either they take a cut off their profits or they charge $65-70 for the game.

As for the eventual 360 port... Even without the same storage capacity, the game could easily be ported. The 360's drive loads much faster and what some would call better architecture. Furthermore, a MGS was released for the GBC and there have been three MGS games on the PSP. Complaining about the PS3's media three months before the game is "due" out doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in either the game or Konami.

While it's funny to joke that he's using TIFFs and Red Book audio formats, unless MGS4 is a 120-hour game I have no idea how the team over at Konami filled 50GB. Most companies take the engine, music, sound effects and voice work and plot out the space used. While the game is tested, almost all the remaining space is dedicated to CGI. Why order more than you could use, right? ...Besides to pad out sequences that usually could be handled by the in-game engine with better-looking CGI.

[Melf]

Kojima is such a putz. He said about eight years ago that he wouldn't go back to Snatcher because he "wanted to concentrate on new games." Then he goes and makes three sequels to MGS. LOL.

About the game size, they could have made the cut scenes using the game's engine. Why the obsession with CG?

And what would be so bad about it being 2 discs? The first Solid was and no one complained.

[DonMarco]

And what would be so bad about it being 2 discs? The first Solid was and no one complained.
There's a big difference in packaging two CD ROMs and two BD ROMs. CDs had been in mass production for well over a decade before MGS's release, meaning it was an extra dime on production costs. Also, it wasn't the first multi-disc game for the system. Going beyond the capacity of one CD had been done dozens of times before with the PlayStation and PC games.

What ever happened to MGS4 in 2007? Oh, it got pushed back to winter 2007, then spring 2008 and now summer 2008. And now, after developing the game for fthree years, with only a few months left Kojima is stating that the game they have made is too large for the disc they knew they would have to use.

[thedeityofhardcore]

My take:

Kojima is full of it. He should stop making games and just do movies like he always wanted to.

[rbudrick]

Wow. There's no practical reason why even a complex video game like Metal Gear can't fit on a 50 GB disc.

Seriously, and no one should ever need more than 40k of RAM.

-Rob