Deceptive ebay advertising

[rarebucky]

I am not going to post the user's name yet (they are a member here), but I would like to get everyone's thoughts here on this. I purchased a factory sealed game from a seller on ebay for a very large amount. Pictures were very detailed but the description failed to mention the discs were loose inside. Of course, I was not happy when I received the game and told the seller that I would like to return the game for a refund. This seller claims that he will not accept a refund because I did not purchase insurance despite the fact that a) the item was packed EXTREMELY well with bubble wrap and peanuts and b) after I won the item I told the seller I did not want the discs to arrive loose. Furthermore, the seller told me that the description was accurate because it did not state the discs were loose. This seller is DEFIANT about not accepting a return, which furthers my claim that this seller did this deceptively. What seller worth their weight would give a buyer such a hard time if they were not satisfied with the item? I would like to know everyone's opinion on this before I file a dispute with Paypal. Thanks.

[jonjandran]

My 2 cents.

Don't bother with a Paypal chargeback. They will NOT side with you on this one.

The item was new/sealed and it arrived new/sealed. So it was "as stated" in auction. Technically there was nothing the seller could do other than open it up and reseat the disc. Then it wouldn't have been new/sealed.

And I'm guessing they came loose in shipping. it happens all the time with games/movies I buy from Amazon despite how well they are packed.

[rarebucky]

My 2 cents.

Don't bother with a Paypal chargeback. They will NOT side with you on this one.

The item was new/sealed and it arrived new/sealed. So it was "as stated" in auction. Technically there was nothing the seller could do other than open it up and reseat the disc. Then it wouldn't have been new/sealed.

And I'm guessing they came loose in shipping. it happens all the time with games/movies I buy from Amazon despite how well they are packed.

No, you're missing the point here - this seller acknowledged to me through e-mail that he didn't put the loose discs in his description, which right then and there tells you he purposely did not put it in because otherwise the item would have gotten much lower bids. He DID NOT ONCE say to me "the discs were not loose when I had the item - it must have happened in shipping." In my opinion, this is the definition of deceptive advertising. I realize Paypal will not be of much use here but I am wondering what other recourse I have. My point here is that the seller is defiantly refusing to take this back. As a seller, I know if I have a dissatisfied customer I am going to go out of my way to satisfy them. To do otherwise reeks of deception. Even if I cannot get my money back I will make sure if this person does not make right here I will let the forum know to stay away from this seller. I am not a vindictive person but I do not like to see people being taken advantage of, especially fellow collectors and forum members.

[udisi]

well, it ma have been deceptive. To omit something that may have effected your purchasing decision, but then again ebay is buyer beware. People here are correct in saying that paypal won't side with you. Really, my suggestion is that if it bothers ou that much just leave a negative feedback, granted I believe you can still be revenge negatived for a bit longer. Really, up to you what to do.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Post the guy's name. What he did was inexcusable.

On a similar note, I sold a bunch of DVD sets and I let the buyers know the discs were loose right from the start. They all thanked me for being straight with them.

[jb143]

Not accepting a refund because you did not purchase insurance doesn't make any sense. I know that Ebay listings are set up so the buyer can select to pay for it but in reality it's only for the seller. They are the one shipping the item and they are the one responsible for making sure it arrives to you in the condition described in the auction. I would definatly try to work this out with the seller before leaving feedback. Unfortunatly though, if they don't cooperate, leaving a negative may be the only retribution you get :( ...outside of maring their name on here. As a seller I don't think twice about giving refunds and have only needed to twice.

[Vroomfunkel]

There's a couple of slightly weird things here. First of all, I would say that if you specified to the seller before they sent the item that you did not want the discs to arrive loose, and the discs were already loose then the seller was absolutely in the wrong - they should have informed you of the fact there and then, and you could have mutually agreed not to proceed with transaction.

But secondary to that, if you really did pay a 'very large' amount of money for a delicate item where condition is of utmost importance, then - as Stephen Fry would put it - why the yellow rubbery f*** did you not pay for insurance??

Agree with the others that you are unlikely to get anywhere with a Paypal claim, as there is no evidence that you did not receive the item described in the auction, in the condition described in the auction.

... incidentally, what would you have done if the discs had been fine before posting, but came loose during delivery?

It seems a little odd that this seller is deceitful enough to send you goods that they knew not to be in the condition that you wanted, but not deceitful enough to simply lie to cover it up. :confused:

[Cornelius]

Agree with the others that you are unlikely to get anywhere with a Paypal claim, as there is no evidence that you did not receive the item described in the auction, in the condition described in the auction.

Unless you were to open it up, and the disc is scratched to hell. In that case it could hardly be considered new. You'd be upping the ante quite a bit by doing that, though, and I don't know if it would change paypal's decision.

I will say that from what you've mentioned, it may have been implied that the discs were loose before shipment, but it doesn't seem solid enough to make any real claim.

[raregamergirl]

I am personally picky about this type of thing, so I would be upset too. If you file a paypal dispute, I don't really see how they could side with the seller. If the seller is being so ridiculous about you returning the item, something must be up.

[ryborg]

I don't know why everyone is telling you not to bother with a Paypal chargeback attempt. If you file a "Not As Described" dispute and escalate it, you will likely win and get a refund after you return the game. As a matter of fact, the buyer ALMOST ALWAYS wins these.

As a seller, I've lost many disputes more convoluted and ridiculous than the situation you're dealing with. There have been times when I've proven the buyer wrong without a shadow of a doubt, but still lost the dispute and was forced to give a refund after the item was returned to me. Give it a shot if the seller isn't being helpful.

[debian4life]

That's a thinker. Since the item was not damaged in shipping, insurance really doesn't apply. Is this for show or are you going to open and play the discs? If the disc's aren't scratched than I would chalk it up and let it go. If they are, leave negative feedback about this. Negative feedback is more harmful to an eBay seller than a refund. Just curious what was his feedback like? I will not buy from an eBay seller with feedback less than 99.0%.

Regards,

Brian

[DefaultGen]

.....

[jonjandran]

I don't know why everyone is telling you not to bother with a Paypal chargeback attempt. If you file a "Not As Described" dispute and escalate it, you will likely win and get a refund after you return the game. As a matter of fact, the buyer ALMOST ALWAYS wins these.

As a seller, I've lost many disputes more convoluted and ridiculous than the situation you're dealing with. There have been times when I've proven the buyer wrong without a shadow of a doubt, but still lost the dispute and was forced to give a refund after the item was returned to me. Give it a shot if the seller isn't being helpful.


I was a Power Seller for 3 years and never lost a case with the "Not as Described" excuse.

The buyer has to go to a third party for verification that the item is not as described. And in this case there is no possible way the item was not as described since it arrived new/sealed.

Paypal has changed a lot in the way they handle the "Not as Described" chargeback.

[TonyTheTiger]

I was thinking about you on this one too. The seller totally should've offered to reseat the discs or mentioned it.

Neg him since you can't be retalia...toried anymore.

How do you reseat a disc on a sealed item? That'd be some real talent there. Playing the maracas with your game until it grabs hold.

[thetoxicone]

How do you reseat a disc on a sealed item? That'd be some real talent there. Playing the maracas with your game until it grabs hold.

You can try to press it back onto the holder from the outside of the case but you also risk doing some more damage by doing that.

[rarebucky]

You can try to press it back onto the holder from the outside of the case but you also risk doing some more damage by doing that.

That would be impossible here - it's a double disc game and both are loose :) And since someone asked, no, I did not buy it to play otherwise I wouldn't care if the discs were loose. I have a feeling I will just end up selling this copy but fully disclosing to potential buyers that the discs are loose. Oh, and the seller is "ridiculously-high-bidder" on ebay and "psychic1" on this forum. Sorry, had to disclose it. I don't want other people to be taken like this.

[Clownzilla]

The seller was completely wrong for not stating a major flaw in the product. The seller has a moral responsibility to state everything wrong with the item. Unfortunitly, from a legal standpoint, as long as the seller didn't lie about the product, it would be the buyers responsibility to find out about the problem. Simply asking if there are any problems that would be considered significant would put the law on your side. Next time, just be sure ask the right questions before you purchase. It's sad the sellers are deceptive these days, but morals of people are getting worse and worse.

[ryborg]

I was a Power Seller for 3 years and never lost a case with the "Not as Described" excuse.

The buyer has to go to a third party for verification that the item is not as described. And in this case there is no possible way the item was not as described since it arrived new/sealed.

Paypal has changed a lot in the way they handle the "Not as Described" chargeback.

How many disputes overall of yours were Not as Described? I'm genuinely curious as to how you've won all of yours. I have many friends and colleagues who sell heavily on ebay and their story is the same.

Paypal records only go back so far, but I think the only times I've won my Not as Described disputes was when the buyer just didn't follow up in the process or refused to mail the item back.

Looking back, I've lost some ridiculous ones. Just a few months ago, some kid from Toronto bought an authentic Steve Nash jersey from me, got it, and like a month later, said the jersey had a huge hole in the middle. The extent of his dispute was "had a hole in it." He didn't have to provide any info or anything (he refused to take a picture of the holey jersey when I asked him about it), and when the jersey was returned to me, there clearly wasn't a hole. I lost the dispute and the full refund was processed even though I had done nothing wrong. I think this kid either ran into money problems or just wanted to wear the jersey to the Raptors-Suns game.

In 2007, I lost one of these disputes because someone thought Snakes Revenge was the first Metal Gear NES game. They said somehow this was my fault, filed a dispute, and won it.

[Jdm101518]

Just a thought - you could initiate a partial chargeback, for 50% or so of the final price - the seller may agree to this if he doesn't want to risk losing all of the sale on a "not as described" chargeback.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Okay ... I re-read everything twice, but I still may have missed something ...

OP - Is this a game that you plan to keep in your collection "factory sealed" forever and ever and never open, or were you planning on opening the game and playing it, and you're just concerned that it will be too scratched/damaged in the event that you DO open it?

If you never plan to open the game ... while I understand your frustration, it's still considered grade-able as "factory sealed" regardless of whether or not the disc is on the spindle, and since you never intend to play it anyway ... it's not the end of the world no?

If you DO plan on opening the game, will the seller offer a refund IF the game does not play correctly upon opening and testing? Could this be the REASON for his/her defiance on offering a refund right now ... are they asking you to open it and try it out before they take the return? (As that would be reasonable.)

[Bojay1997]

How many disputes overall of yours were Not as Described? I'm genuinely curious as to how you've won all of yours. I have many friends and colleagues who sell heavily on ebay and their story is the same.

Paypal records only go back so far, but I think the only times I've won my Not as Described disputes was when the buyer just didn't follow up in the process or refused to mail the item back.

Looking back, I've lost some ridiculous ones. Just a few months ago, some kid from Toronto bought an authentic Steve Nash jersey from me, got it, and like a month later, said the jersey had a huge hole in the middle. The extent of his dispute was "had a hole in it." He didn't have to provide any info or anything (he refused to take a picture of the holey jersey when I asked him about it), and when the jersey was returned to me, there clearly wasn't a hole. I lost the dispute and the full refund was processed even though I had done nothing wrong. I think this kid either ran into money problems or just wanted to wear the jersey to the Raptors-Suns game.

In 2007, I lost one of these disputes because someone thought Snakes Revenge was the first Metal Gear NES game. They said somehow this was my fault, filed a dispute, and won it.

Unfortunately, Paypal has seriously reduced the claims they will actually get involved in. As I posted here a month or two ago, I had a seller send me a cheap knock-off version of a PC game that I bought mostly as a collectible. He had advertised is as the full retail version, mint/factory sealed, etc...I tried to get a refund and the best the seller would agree to was if I returned it, he would replace it with what he advertised in the first place. I did that at my own expense and he claimed that I sent him back some other item. In any event, I filed a not as described complaint and Paypal's response was that they don't get involved in those disputes. They said they would make a note in the seller's account and if more complaints came in, they might take action. Being a lawyer, I wasn't a big fan of this response and did some follow-up with the office of their general counsel. Essentially, their position is that as long as the seller has a valid form of proof that something was shipped to the buyer, they won't get involved. So, for all you buyers out there, a seller can basically send you an empty box as long as they buy tracking. Do I think this position would hold up in court? Probably not, but I'm not going to file suit over $50 and I doubt anyone else will either until it becomes a common problem and someone files a class action.

As for the loose discs issue, I can sympathize and as a sealed game collector, that's something I won't accept in my collection. Having said that, if it's a high price item, I always ask the seller if the discs are loose, if they are a smoker, if there are any case cracks, etc... before I bid. It's easier than dealing with it after the fact.

[Fuyukaze]

if they are a smoker

So, are you saying you dont buy from people who smoke?

[Kitsune Sniper]

So, are you saying you dont buy from people who smoke?

I can tell you as the son of a heavy smoker, the smell gets into EVERYTHING. Some people find this smell rather irritating. I don't really mind it at all, but I can't stand things that smell like perfume, so I know where he's coming from.

[Fuyukaze]

I can tell you as the son of a heavy smoker, the smell gets into EVERYTHING. Some people find this smell rather irritating. I don't really mind it at all, but I can't stand things that smell like perfume, so I know where he's coming from.

I ask because I know that some people dont care if they smoke around their own personal stuff. The catch is, some do and go to great lengths to not smoke around expensive electronics like gaming collections. I come from a household of smokers with my father being the only one who doesnt. That said, I refuse to smoke in my gaming room because smoke tends to leave a nasty sticky residue over years. I just wanted some clarification. I personaly dont like buying games off dirty people but have yet to refused to simply because most things made dirty can always be cleaned, even soda spills.

[Bojay1997]

So, are you saying you dont buy from people who smoke?
That's correct.

[rarebucky]

Okay ... I re-read everything twice, but I still may have missed something ...

OP - Is this a game that you plan to keep in your collection "factory sealed" forever and ever and never open, or were you planning on opening the game and playing it, and you're just concerned that it will be too scratched/damaged in the event that you DO open it?

If you never plan to open the game ... while I understand your frustration, it's still considered grade-able as "factory sealed" regardless of whether or not the disc is on the spindle, and since you never intend to play it anyway ... it's not the end of the world no?

If you DO plan on opening the game, will the seller offer a refund IF the game does not play correctly upon opening and testing? Could this be the REASON for his/her defiance on offering a refund right now ... are they asking you to open it and try it out before they take the return? (As that would be reasonable.)


I bought it for my collection to keep sealed, so yes, a loose disc inside does bother me and it is certainly worth less because of that. Any sealed collector will tell you that. The seller knew this too and this is why he won't take it back.

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

The same thing just happened to me. I just received a sealed PS1 game, 2 disc, and both are loose inside the case. The only difference is, I got this for a fraction of what the game normally sells for because the auction ended at a strange time (around 4:30am) and it was part of a bigger lot which was mostly worthless. I intended to keep it sealed too, as it's a fairly valuable piece, but I got it cheap enough that it isn't worth dealing with the seller.

[Nes]

Not disclosing the item comes from the home of a smoker is definitely deceptive. I've luckily only purchased a couple items that obviously came from smokers. Unfortunately one was a PS3. I've thoroughly cleaned it multiple times with Orange Glo and the smell is mostly gone but still...

[Steven]

Didn't read the whole thread but general rules of thumb:

1). Always ask the seller any questions you may have that they do not explicitly state in their auction. Just to be safe since they can always play the "Well you didn't/should have ask" hand.

2). Always get insurance on high ticket items

In the end, dunno what else to say but always ask questions you want clarified. You can't bank on telling the seller "You should have said this or that in your auction."

Sometimes, deceptive seller will state "Any questions ask before you bid." Usually it means nada but other times it means there is certain pertinent information they chose not to disclose publicly in hopes of higher bids.

You just gotta use your head on eBay and it will save you a lot of worries. (not directed at OP but said in general)

[bunnybum]

I don't get this and people will most likely want to kick my ass for saying this, but I work at a record and dvd store, and yes, we too get craploads of sealed, brand spanking new dvds where the discs are flopping around inside because the postal workers have tossed the boxes around like they tend to. Sure, the seller should acknowledge that this phenomenon could occur and, I dunno, accept a 50/50 thing. However, I don't really see how this is entirely his problem. When he has shipped the goods, he has no idea what's going to happen to them.

Give him a call and let him assure you the discs were in their rightful place and if so, send the bill to the postal service since it's most likely their fault for not handling the box properly.

Sorry for letting out steam. I just don't see the point in starting a mob against him here because of something that most likely isn't his fault.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I don't collect sealed games. For all I know all those snassy sealed FFVII games could contain Teletubbies dvds. And you'll never know!

And another thing, how is it deceptive not to write that an item comes from the home of a smoker? Because of the smell? Then isn't it deceptive not to write that the item comes from someone living in the city? There's smog all over the place! I guess we all just want our money back at the end of the day.

</RANT>

Yes, I know you all want to attack me for being neutral, but I guess someone had to be.

[rarebucky]

Thank you for those very uninsightful comments.

[TonyTheTiger]

Didn't read the whole thread but general rules of thumb:

1). Always ask the seller any questions you may have that they do not explicitly state in their auction. Just to be safe since they can always play the "Well you didn't/should have ask" hand.

2). Always get insurance on high ticket items

In the end, dunno what else to say but always ask questions you want clarified. You can't bank on telling the seller "You should have said this or that in your auction."

Sometimes, deceptive seller will state "Any questions ask before you bid." Usually it means nada but other times it means there is certain pertinent information they chose not to disclose publicly in hopes of higher bids.

You just gotta use your head on eBay and it will save you a lot of worries. (not directed at OP but said in general)

I don't think that's entirely fair though. "Buyer Beware" is in theory a sound doctrine. If there's an obvious question to ask then the buyer should ask it. But it's just plain unrealistic for a buyer to know specifically the right questions to ask about every little detail. "Are the discs loose inside?" might not be the most obvious thing to ask because it's not the first thing that might come to mind when considering if something is "wrong" with the item. What if you order a pizza and it shows up at your door with a cockroach on it? You can't just say "Well, always ask the questions about what you buy. If they don't explicitly say that their pizzas have bugs on them you should ask in advance."

A thousand and one things can be wrong with an item when you buy it. Suggesting that the buyer ask the right questions isn't going to solve the problem when issues come out of left field.

[rarebucky]

Guys, you are not thinking about this logically. This here was a seller, collector, and FORUM MEMBER, just like us, who obviously knew what he was selling and that a mention of a loose disc would have gotten him lower bids. This was intentional hiding of details that pertained to the item. There is no debating this point further - THE SELLER IS AT FAULT.

[evil_genius]

What game is it?