N+ developers rail against glut of bad XBLA games [Joystiq]

[DP ServBot]

Filed under: Retro (http://www.joystiq.com/category/retro/), Microsoft Xbox 360 (http://www.joystiq.com/category/xbox360/), Online (http://www.joystiq.com/category/online/)

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Here at Joystiq, we think Metanet's sadistic platformer N+ (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/02/18/n-coming-to-xbox-live-arcade-wednesday/) is one of the best original games we've seen on Xbox Live Arcade for a while. So maybe it's not too surprising that the game's developers feel the same way. What is surprising is their willingness to diss the entire download service in public.

Talking to Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17960), N+ creators Raigan Burns and Mare Sheppard railed against Xbox Live Arcade's bloated catalog of copycat games. "The real problem, I think, is that the same people who are deciding what retail games get greenlit are deciding what Live Arcade games get greenlit," Burns said. "Those decisions that are ruining Live Arcade... it's like, who greenlit Word Puzzle? Who greenlit that hoverboard game that's just shit?" It wasn't always like this, according to Burns. "When we started out ... there were 30 games on Live Arcade. If N was one of them, it would stand out. Now there's like a hundred games, and they're all shit. ... If I was a consumer, I could see not even looking at Live Arcade games anymore if I had downloaded 10 or 20 demos, because at a certain point, you're like, 'Whatever. Maybe there's a good game in here.'"

The full interview (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3583/n_beyond_the_postmortem.php) contains more thoughts on the Xbox Live certification process, the effect of game demos on buzz, and the stupidity of charging for gamerpics and themes. A word of warning: Microsoft fanboys should take their heart medicine before clicking the read link.

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[Half Japanese]

I agree with pretty much everything they said in the interview. They almost come across in the charming, kidding-on-the-square way that Trey Parker and Matt Stone do in interviews.

Xbox Live Arcade really has become oversaturated with fluff and bullshit, and I fear that MS cutting the royalty rates is only going to increase the shit ratio. They have games like Ikaruga - which has to have been finished for months now - ready to go and they release bullshit like Bliss Island, Rocketmen and Boogie Bunnies. They're also mostly right when they attack releases like Double Dragon. It really is true: no one really needs to play it again. I'd also agree with the idea that themes/gamerpics should be free or at the very least publishers should be given the option to offer them for free. I've bought maybe 3 themes and one pack of gamerpics in the year and a half I've had my 360 (I regret two of the themes and only bought the Fatal Fury picture pack for that Terry pic).

I enjoyed the N+ demo but haven't bitten on the full game yet; it sounds like it's time to make that official.

[Poofta!]

yeah, xbla is full of shit, but its filled with great games too. everyone always wants less BS and more goodness, but the world doesnt work like that. if they are complaining about xbla, have they went into a gamestop lately?

and yes, theme/pics should be free.

[brykasch]

I guess it all depends on your point of view, I look at it this way, yes theres a decent variety but imho its a good thing. Are there gonna be some bad titles yep, but those dont last long. I purchased this week Castlevania SOTN, Galaga, Gauntlet, and TMNT. Next on my list are REZ, Puzzle Fighter HD, Triggerheart, and Pac-man CE.

If they limite dit to 10 games and those 10 games are crap its not gonna make much of a difference. It jsut sounds liek there afraid there game will get overlooked. myself I have my 360 set to always downlaod the new demos that are available and give em all a try.

[CartCollector]

They're also mostly right when they attack releases like Double Dragon. It really is true: no one really needs to play it again.

What about those who never got to play it when it first came out? An XBLA download would be cheaper and easier for them than buying the original arcade game or a MAME cabinet and more legal than downloading the ROM.

[Melf]

"The real problem, I think, is that the same people who are deciding what retail games get greenlit are deciding what Live Arcade games get greenlit," Burns said. "Those decisions that are ruining Live Arcade... it's like, who greenlit Word Puzzle? Who greenlit that hoverboard game that's just shit?"

Lol, this I can agree with.


It wasn't always like this, according to Burns. "When we started out ... there were 30 games on Live Arcade. If N was one of them, it would stand out. Now there's like a hundred games, and they're all shit. ...

If N+ is so great, then why doesn't it stand out, no matter how many games are there? Me thinks we have another case of a big-headed developer whining that his game isn't selling bucketloads (shades of Jeff Minter!). I love how they think this will be any different on other consoles. I"m sure everyone who owns a Wii sees how Sin & Punishment stands out among all the other crap, and PSN owners know all the good releases when they see them!


If I was a consumer, I could see not even looking at Live Arcade games anymore if I had downloaded 10 or 20 demos, because at a certain point, you're like, 'Whatever. Maybe there's a good game in here.'"

They say in the interview that they don't understand why so many "bad" games are selling despite having demos. Maybe it's because not everyone shares their definition of what's "bad?"


Then again, when you look at how many games are selling, like, who's buying Pinball FX? How many games have you bought on Xbox Live Arcade, seriously?

See? This is bullshit right here. Pinball FX rocks. I bought both it and the new table, and I play it a lot.


RB: It's like, how is Uno the best-selling game on there? That really... that doesn't make any sense. It really doesn't. Street Fighter II you can see, because everyone played it and it was popular. But Uno... I didn't realize the 360 was popular with that crowd.

Again, Uno rocks. So the majority of XBLA users don't share their tastes, and they're complaining. Maybe their game will do better on another platform, I don't know. It sounds like a lot of whining to me though. And LOL at them saying they own Alien Hominid on GC so they won't buy it. Isn't N+ a port of a free flash game?

The Double Dragon quote was especially douchebaggy:


RB: The retro games thing I also don't get, because Double Dragon is not a game you ever need to play again. It was great. It was so good. But who's buying that if there's a demo? So many games since then... it's like, '40s movies you can appreciate, but when you get into the early '20s and the teens, it stops being...

OMG, old stuff sucks!

Fuck them and their game. I DLed the demo, but I think I'll play the free flash version instead just to spite these idiots.

[geneshifter]

Pretty much agrre with melf's comments above. These N+ guys are coming across as idiots in this interview. Sorry, but I think they are full of it.

[Bojay1997]

I don't get this continuing attack on Xbox Live Arcade by various developers. What do they want, the system Nintendo has where literally anyone can release a full retail game for either of their systems? That kind of lack of quality control has resulted in massive shelves of unsold games at major retailers and piles of crap games being gifted to unsuspecting gamers. I love Xbox Live Arcade and am smart enough to do a little research before I buy anything. Are people unaware that most of the major review sites also review Xbox Live games? I'm tired of the whining. There simply aren't that many games available on Xbox Live, certainly not when compared to how long the service has been running. What are there, maybe 70-80 total?

[Poofta!]

Pretty much agrre with melf's comments above. These N+ guys are coming across as idiots in this interview. Sorry, but I think they are full of it.

ditto. its like that moron who made space giraffe and was whining no one bought it -- listen, if you make a shitty or mediocre game, few people will buy it! stop whining that no one is buying your game, it has all the same exposure and chances as every other game on xbla. if no one is buying it, its obviously a flaw with your game, not the equal-opportunity market system.

[Half Japanese]

The way I took it (and I have a hard time taking it any other way) is that they're saying that so much bullshit and filler gets released on XBLA that people start to overlook things that they might otherwise enjoy. People aren't downloading demos for things they might be interested in because they just assume "Well, the last ten demos I've downloaded have been complete shit, why waste my time?" I know I've stopped downloading demos every week like I used to and mostly judge the game by word-of-mouth and what I can tell about it by looking at it.

I realize that every developer who has anything negative to say about XBLA is going to find comparison with Jeff Minter, but Minter's game was obtuse, nonsensical and I found it to be a bit condescending and out of date (particularly the tired Engrish memes). The N+ guys have a quality product, Minter does not.

[Rob2600]

if you make a shitty or mediocre game, few people will buy it! stop whining that no one is buying your game, it has all the same exposure and chances as every other game on xbla. if no one is buying it, its obviously a flaw with your game

That's not necessarily true. Sometimes a highly rated game just doesn't sell well. Zack & Wiki for the Wii comes to mind.

[roushimsx]

Fuck them and their game. I DLed the demo, but I think I'll play the free flash version instead just to spite these idiots.

Yea, fuck them! Go play the free version that they'd previously developed and get addicted to it...that'll show 'em! To save you the trouble, here's a link to the download page (http://www.thewayoftheninja.org/n_downloads.html). You go show those assholes who the boss is!

N was a hell of a lot of fun but I can completely see where they're coming from. There's so many copy cat games on the service that it's easy for something unique and original like N to get lost in the mix. Sure, people that have a clue will know about how great N was and might pick it up, but the average user (you know, the target demographic where all of the real money is) will just pass it over because they'll assume it's just another crummy knock off game.

[Ze_ro]

They're also mostly right when they attack releases like Double Dragon. It really is true: no one really needs to play it again.
And everyone's already played Super Mario Bros, so that shouldn't be available on the Wii Virtual Console, right? After all, who'd want to play that old shit again? Does no one else remember when XBLA was new, and more than half the games were actual ARCADE games?


I'd also agree with the idea that themes/gamerpics should be free or at the very least publishers should be given the option to offer them for free.
A lot of games DO give you free gamerpics. They don't even tell you, they just end up showing up in your list. Try changing your gamerpic some time and see what's in there, there's probably a bunch of stuff you didn't know about. I've got a bunch of shitty Amped 3 gamerpics in there that I sure as hell never paid for.

I don't get what all the criticism is about really. How is XBLA any worse than regular brick-and-mortar store releases? Some of them are bad, some of them are good, and a lot of them are in the middle. Every major console has had to deal with the problem of shovelware, and digital distribution (surprise, surprise) is no exception. As for games like Word Puzzle, sure, we didn't download it, but it's there for a reason, and it's not because Microsoft expects to make crazy money from it. Do you think Nintendo expected Donkey Kong Jr Math to be a best-seller?

Microsoft has sort of painted themselves into a corner with XBLA releases... everyone expects two games a week, and sometimes there just aren't enough quality games in the pipeline to make those two games great ones. And how can we complain? I certainly don't expect two A+ titles per week to hit the store shelves. People will complain more if they get nothing than if they get something that they don't intend to every play. Besides, if N+ is so great, and everything else on XBLA is shit, shouldn't that make N+ stand out even more?

--Zero

[Melf]

The way I took it (and I have a hard time taking it any other way) is that they're saying that so much bullshit and filler gets released on XBLA that people start to overlook things that they might otherwise enjoy. People aren't downloading demos for things they might be interested in because they just assume "Well, the last ten demos I've downloaded have been complete shit, why waste my time?" I know I've stopped downloading demos every week like I used to and mostly judge the game by word-of-mouth and what I can tell about it by looking at it.

The problem is that they're totally contradicting themselves. First they whine and moan about how people aren't going to be interested in DLing anything because there's so much crap. Then they cry about how well Uno and Pinball FX are selling. If no one is downloading the games, then why are they selling so well? Perhaps it's because people don't all share the opinion of these two about what's a good game or not, especially if it's old. The sales on the Wii's VC prove that these two are full of shit.


Yea, fuck them! Go play the free version that they'd previously developed and get addicted to it...that'll show 'em! To save you the trouble, here's a link to the download page (http://www.thewayoftheninja.org/n_downloads.html). You go show those assholes who the boss is!

Yeah! I'll do that! I'll play it for free and not give them my money! That will show them!


N was a hell of a lot of fun but I can completely see where they're coming from. There's so many copy cat games on the service that it's easy for something unique and original like N to get lost in the mix. Sure, people that have a clue will know about how great N was and might pick it up, but the average user (you know, the target demographic where all of the real money is) will just pass it over because they'll assume it's just another crummy knock off game.

This would happen no matter where the game is released. Do you think it would get more exposure sitting on a store shelf? How many awesome games rot in retail because they're overlooked by filler and shovelware? At least with the demo, people can try it for free and then decide to buy it. You can't do that at Gamestop or TRU.

[Tep]

Do members of the Microsoft cult usually yell at each other about money? I thought they were to steal it, give some to Gates, and share the rest.

[Half Japanese]

And everyone's already played Super Mario Bros, so that shouldn't be available on the Wii Virtual Console, right? After all, who'd want to play that old shit again? Does no one else remember when XBLA was new, and more than half the games were actual ARCADE games?


A lot of games DO give you free gamerpics. They don't even tell you, they just end up showing up in your list. Try changing your gamerpic some time and see what's in there, there's probably a bunch of stuff you didn't know about. I've got a bunch of shitty Amped 3 gamerpics in there that I sure as hell never paid for.

The difference is that Super Mario Bros. has aged well and Double Dragon hasn't. Yes, they both once represented the pinnacle of their respective genres (and SMB arguably still might), but times change and things age differently. I am not, nor have I ever been "old shit sucks," so I'm definitely not coming at it from that angle.

And as far as the free gamerpics go, they're generally one per game and that one isn't usually as appealing as the ones you're expected to pay for (obviously). What the developers are saying is that they can't choose to offer them for free if they so decide, that the freebies have to be paid for by marketing dollars, which sucks.

[boatofcar]

Pretty much agrre with melf's comments above. These N+ guys are coming across as idiots in this interview. Sorry, but I think they are full of it.


Seconded. This is Jeff Minter part II.

[Jon R.]

The difference is that Super Mario Bros. has aged well and Double Dragon hasn't. Yes, they both once represented the pinnacle of their respective genres (and SMB arguably still might), but times change and things age differently.

With Double Dragon aging really badly. The best proof of this is actually the GBA remake of Double Dragon, which makes the original completely obsolete.

Secondly, it seems like anyone who would immediately discount their claims of market dilution are too young to remember the crash of '84. It's not such a stretch to say that it harms XBLA when in the past something similar hosed the entire industry.

Third, if you want to see some evidence of what they're saying, all you have to do is look at the PC freeware scene. It's hard as hell to get a handle on what's worth playing, and it's hard for the exact same reasons. In fact, i'd say they have a pretty good idea about it since N comes from a scene that's utterly flooded with crap that most people have no chance of navigating. The difference here is that Microsoft actually has the option of being more selective.

[esquire]

The irony in all of this, IMHO, is that if Microsoft really limited the number and type of releases on XBLA to the extent these developers would like to see, there would be a very good chance their game would not even be released at all. Be careful what you ask for....

[Ze_ro]

The difference is that Super Mario Bros. has aged well and Double Dragon hasn't.
Well, that's your opinion. I'm not a big fan of Double Dragon, but my brother certainly is. He still plays it in MAME all the time, and if he had a 360, I guarantee he'd buy the XBLA version.

--Zero

[Ed Oscuro]

If N+ is so great, then why doesn't it stand out, no matter how many games are there? Me thinks we have another case of a big-headed developer whining that his game isn't selling bucketloads (shades of Jeff Minter!).
Truth. They realize their game doesn't have the graphics to stand out in a list of screenshots, so they make a high-falutin' paean to "quality" and hope THAT will be their ticket to success.

Frankly, the game doesn't look attractive at all.

[Berserker]

Frankly, the game doesn't look attractive at all.

Have you actually played the game though? It's pretty addictive; this is referring to the Flash version though, I've yet to try the 360 version.

Also, the comparisons made to Minter are way poor IMO. Minter BAW'D in a Livejournal post in the middle of the night. These guys were doing an interview, and seemed very down-to-earth about how they felt on things, surprisingly so.

[Bojay1997]

Have you actually played the game though? It's pretty addictive; this is referring to the Flash version though, I've yet to try the 360 version.

Also, the comparisons made to Minter are way poor IMO. Minter BAW'D in a Livejournal post in the middle of the night. These guys were doing an interview, and seemed very down-to-earth about how they felt on things, surprisingly so.

Did you actually read their comments? One of the guys claimed there are 100 games on Xbox Live and all of them are "s&%*". Is that how you define down to earth? There are a ton of good games on Xbox Live. Yes, there are some crappy ones too, but it's not most of them or even half of them. The fact that I can buy games like Triggerheart Excelica for $10 when getting the Dreamcast version (if you can even find it) is like 10 times that along with fun games like Catan, Exit and Rez HD for low prices is something I appreciate. Heck, even Space Giraffe is only $5 which is not too much in my opinion to support an experimental but flawed game. How about this, I think the real arrogance is in people taking Flash games that are available to anyone with a PC for free and then charging money for them on Xbox Live.

[Berserker]

I did, and I'm not sure if you could've actually missed the point more, which as I took it is simply this -- There's good stuff in there, but there's also a lot of noise. That's it.

This kind of kneejerk polarizing demonstrated here by yourself and Melf is precisely the reason why PR guys were hired to blow smoke up our collective ass, and why most gaming interviews and press of this kind is so boring, uneventful, saying and accomplishing nothing. Also Known As -- Fluff. Yay, fluff. Wherein we walk on eggshells, watch our every word, and try really really hard not to make waves or offend anybody.

No thanks.

I would much rather have more developers simply speak their minds, regardless of whether or not I agree with their opinions.

[roushimsx]

How about this, I think the real arrogance is in people taking Flash games that are available to anyone with a PC for free and then charging money for them on Xbox Live.

Sounds like you're shitting on a majority of XBLA titles there. After all, plenty of those games are just copy cats of already established titles but with oh-so-minor tweaks to the gameplay. Hell, Popcap has been doing it for years on the PC (and now consoles) and has created some extremely profitable knock off franchises (the biggest of which is most likely Zuma).

In contrast, the N+ developers created their own unique game, released a version for free (with support for user made levels, even!), and eventually were able to secure a contract to produce a commercial version. Hell, the free version is still being actively supported and updated (1.5 soon!) and has a few hundred levels to play around in. The XBLA version has 400 new levels, upgraded graphics, online multiplayer, etc.... not a bad addition to an already addictive, challenging and highly enjoyable game.

[Bojay1997]

Sounds like you're shitting on a majority of XBLA titles there. After all, plenty of those games are just copy cats of already established titles but with oh-so-minor tweaks to the gameplay. Hell, Popcap has been doing it for years on the PC (and now consoles) and has created some extremely profitable knock off franchises (the biggest of which is most likely Zuma).

In contrast, the N+ developers created their own unique game, released a version for free (with support for user made levels, even!), and eventually were able to secure a contract to produce a commercial version. Hell, the free version is still being actively supported and updated (1.5 soon!) and has a few hundred levels to play around in. The XBLA version has 400 new levels, upgraded graphics, online multiplayer, etc.... not a bad addition to an already addictive, challenging and highly enjoyable game.

Well, I'm not going to pay to purchase a game on Xbox Live that is available on my PC for free. I will, however, pay for commercial quality games in niche genres (shmups, arcade classics, experimental titles). I personally like N+, but I don't think it's the most innovative game I've ever played, nor do I buy that Xbox Live was their window to the big time, particularly since a PSP port was already announced before the Xbox Live version was even available.

[blissfulnoise]

Let's be honest though; XBLA isn't taking nearly the chances that PSN is.

XBLA bread and butter is in established classics and flawed, but functional, ports. Even N+ is just an expanded version of the free flash game. Likewise E4 (which was ultimately disappointing given how beautiful and hypnotizing E3 is on the PSP).

I wouldn't call the majority of releases on XBLA "crap", but I will say that content is disappointing as a whole. I'm still waiting for XBLA to have their breakthrough original content that will finally take off the gloves and show that XBLA is a serious platform for serious games. Though I suspect that the XNA project, if done well, may fill that void.

Well, that and the super pricey PS2/Arcade Cave shmups that are getting ports!

[Bojay1997]

I did, and I'm not sure if you could've actually missed the point more, which as I took it is simply this -- There's good stuff in there, but there's also a lot of noise. That's it.

This kind of kneejerk polarizing demonstrated here by yourself and Melf is precisely the reason why PR guys were hired to blow smoke up our collective ass, and why most gaming interviews and press of this kind is so boring, uneventful, saying and accomplishing nothing. Also Known As -- Fluff. Yay, fluff. Wherein we walk on eggshells, watch our every word, and try really really hard not to make waves or offend anybody.

No thanks.

I would much rather have more developers simply speak their minds, regardless of whether or not I agree with their opinions.

First of all, it's not knee jerk. I took the time to read the interview and frankly, these guys don't have a track record nor any kind of existing credibility since other than this game which I just heard about and played month or two ago, I know nothing about them or their work. In my book, they are hardly seasoned developers and so, I took everything they said with a grain of salt. As far as I'm concerned, developers are free to say whatever they like. Of course, as a person who buys far more games than the average consumer, I'm entitled to hold what I perceive as arrogance or stupidity against them and not buy their work. I don't think developers have been restrained in their opinions, but it seems like they get upset whenever a reviewer or anyone else disagrees with them. Anyone recall the scandals with Kane & Lynch (let's pull our ads and get people fired for not kissing our ass), Lair (everyone in the world is stupid, the controls take a while to get used to), and the list goes on. I'd love to see the list of what they consider to be "s$#@" on Xbox Live as I would strongly disagree that the market has difficulty regulating itself. People aren't morons and if a game is no good, people won't pay to download it. It doesn't matter if there are 5 games on Xbox Live or 5,000. Give the public a little bit of credit for crying out loud.

[Half Japanese]

I did, and I'm not sure if you could've actually missed the point more, which as I took it is simply this -- There's good stuff in there, but there's also a lot of noise. That's it.

This kind of kneejerk polarizing demonstrated here by yourself and Melf is precisely the reason why PR guys were hired to blow smoke up our collective ass, and why most gaming interviews and press of this kind is so boring, uneventful, saying and accomplishing nothing. Also Known As -- Fluff. Yay, fluff. Wherein we walk on eggshells, watch our every word, and try really really hard not to make waves or offend anybody.

No thanks.

I would much rather have more developers simply speak their minds, regardless of whether or not I agree with their opinions.

Yay! This is basically what I've been trying to say for the whole thread thus far, but with the added bit about how fucking boring most developer interviews are.


Let's be honest though; XBLA isn't taking nearly the chances that PSN is.

[...]

Though I suspect that the XNA project, if done well, may fill that void.

This is a good point, as in some ways it represents the opposite end of the spectrum, but the PSN store still has its crap. Based on what I played of the XNA demos, I don't have much hope in that being XBLA's salvation, as the cream of the crop of those games were at best heavy on style and lacking substance.

[blissfulnoise]

This is a good point, as in some ways it represents the opposite end of the spectrum, but the PSN store still has its crap. Based on what I played of the XNA demos, I don't have much hope in that being XBLA's salvation, as the cream of the crop of those games were at best heavy on style and lacking substance.

Well style and experimentation can work to build upon solid game foundations down the line. N, Every Extend, and flOw being perfect examples of games that started out as tech demos and game theory ideas but blossomed into full-blown realizations on their respective console releases.

My hope is that XNA will breed some great new ideas now that the approval process will be passed over. And hopefully these ideas can later be fleshed out with larger releases on XBLA proper.

As far as PSN goes, don't get me wrong, I just said they were taking chances, I didn't necessarily say that they were succeeding at every corner. There are some pretty awful games on there and a healthy amount of arcade "cash-in" ports. It's just that Sony is starting to really lay their online presence on the line and, so far, I'm highly impressed with the results.

All that said, I have 9 PSN games but some 50 XBLA games. Read into that what you will.

[Jon R.]

I'd love to see the list of what they consider to be "s$#@" on Xbox Live as I would strongly disagree that the market has difficulty regulating itself. People aren't morons and if a game is no good, people won't pay to download it. It doesn't matter if there are 5 games on Xbox Live or 5,000. Give the public a little bit of credit for crying out loud.

Dude, the freeware scene they come from is proof of what they say. You can pare it down to just one genre and still have a problem manually sorting out the chaff from the wheat, as is immediately obvious to anyone who's tried browsing Shoot The Core. The biggest problem that scene is facing right now is specifically that there's so much crap you have to wade through just to find something interesting. It has nothing to do with whether or not people are morons.

You even said yourself that you had no idea N even existed until a few months ago; it's been going for nearly 3 years now. Is that sinking in at all?

[esquire]

You even said yourself that you had no idea N even existed until a few months ago; it's been going for nearly 3 years now. Is that sinking in at all?

I thought he was referring to the version on XBLA, not the PC. In either event, even if it was the PC version he was referring to, I think that still says a lot about the game and the developers that a game which has been out for 3 years now and there's still a significant portion of mainstream America that either does not know it exists or simply does not care, myself included. I did not know about their flash flash game until it got all the press for its XBLA release in magazines like OXM, EGM and Game Informer. Seems to me they want to bite the hand that feeds them. They can leave the XBLA and go back to making flash games and I would not care, even if N+ is the greatest game ever for XBLA.

As to the overall picture here, it's not just the developers who are crying, but also magazine writers and game publishers. The same thing happens when a game like Okami does not do well in the US market, or a multi-platform game like Beyond Good & Evil fails to sell a lot. There are two ways to address this as far as I know: either everyone tells us we are stupid for not buying these games, or simply tell us what we are missing out on and that we need to go out and buy these rare gems. Frankly, I think the latter course works better, as the former (telling everyone they are idiots) only seems to piss people off. The old saying goes, "you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar".

Had these guys told us why their game is great, or recommend that we try the free game first and then move on to the XBLA game if we liked it, I am sure they would be doing their work more justice. Rather, they come off as a bunch of whiny bitches blaming someone else for their (economic) misfortunes.

[Gabriel]

The fact they say all adaptations of classics are crap and dismiss Pinball FX and Uno completely out of hand while propping up Street Fighter II as an example of the kind of game which they approve of tells everything you need to know about these guys.

It's all especially silly since N+ is something akin to a new adaptation of Lode Runner.

I'll be honest. I didn't even bother trying the demo of N+. I'm probably not going to. The first, and least, reason is that I loved Lode Runner in my youth, but found "it doesn't age well." I don't feel the need to play Lode Runner or even a remixed version of it again.

The more substantial reason is that I have over 40 games paid for and downloaded to my 360. I don't have to worry about their unattractive flash game port. I'm still playing Triggerheart Excelica and Commanders: Attack of the Genos. I'm looking forward to Assault Heroes 2. As a old school D&Der, Talisman is coming soon and interest me. Omega Five is still awesome. And I still haven't even gotten a chance to play Puzzle Quest yet!

It's not that there's so much crap that I'm overwhelmed. It's the opposite. I'm overwhelmed by all the good stuff. There's so much good stuff I don't have time for a game like N+ which can't stand out from the crowd on it's own. The bar is set much higher, not lower. Which, of course, is the real reason for the developers' rant.

[Jon R.]

Jesus christ, what the hell. Lode Runner?

No one's crying about anything, either. It's not like Minter's whining about how no one cares about his burnout crap anymore. I absolutely get the resentment for devs that blame customers for their failures (especially after a few recent projects), but i didn't get that at all from these guys. What i got from it wasn't that no one bought it, but that the sheer amount of crap greenlit makes it harder for people to weed through it all on their own in order to make their own decision based on the demo. I can anecdotally add that this rings very true for me, since i log ago got tired of randomly downloading stuff from ShootTheCore, and not only are those small, but installing them is usually as easy as extracting a folder from an archive.

The thing is, when you strip things down like with XBLA games, you can't get too much of a feel from a screenshot. Afterall, the point with these games, more than with the current mainstream big titles, is that the focus is more on the gameplay. Right? And the way to check that out is via demos. Surely people on this forum, of all places, can see this point.

This works fine if there's some manner of quality control going on, but if there isn't, the game of ratios goes completely out of whack. 10 games total, 3 are truly crap, no big deal. 100 games, 30 are crap, that starts to screw things up. Worst case, like with the current freeware scene, the act of randomly downloading demos on a lark just becomes a complete waste of time. Cho Ren Sha 68k is the most perfect videogame ever created, but it's still relatively unknown simply because it gets lost in this sea of crap.

[mailman187666]

these downloadable console games are all kind of a new thing in console gaming right now. Yeah you were able to download PC games in the past but they are trying new things with things like the virtual console with wiiware, PSN, and xbox live arcade. Not everything is going to be perfect and they are trying to come up with new ideas and see what people like. Do you think they expected Geometry Wars to sell so well? thats the kinds of risks you have to take and the N+ guys are trying something new also. If people like shooters like Geometry Wars, other companys are most likely going to do some form of shooter thinking that its what people want. I think most of the XBLA games are acctually pretty good games. I haven't tried Space Giraffe or N+ at all so I can't say much on that. With games like Castlevania, Puzzlequest, and Rez....I think people may overlook games like N+ because there are ones that people KNOW are good that they'd rather spend thier money on.

[esquire]

Jesus christ, what the hell. Lode Runner?

No one's crying about anything, either. It's not like Minter's whining about how no one cares about his burnout crap anymore. I absolutely get the resentment for devs that blame customers for their failures (especially after a few recent projects), but i didn't get that at all from these guys.


Raigan: "Oh my god. Exactly! That's the whole thing. They all suck. It's like, when we started out, we were excited, just like with N. There were 30 games on Live Arcade. If N was one of them, it would stand out. Now there's like a hundred games, and they're all shit."

...

RB: It's like, how is Uno the best-selling game on there? That really... that doesn't make any sense. It really doesn't. Street Fighter II you can see, because everyone played it and it was popular. But Uno... I didn't realize the 360 was popular with that crowd.

If that's not whiny, then at the very least its arrogance. Just as Minter was bitching about how Frogger was outselling Space Giraffe, these guys can't figure out how games like Uno are popular. Frankly, if they can't figure that out, maybe they shouldn't be developing games. As I said in my post in the "Space Giraffe" thread, it is the developers job to make sure we get it. If we don't, it is their fault, not ours. (See also Lair and the Sixxaxis controls).

The interviewer briefly touches on it, and the developers simply blow over this, and that is that XBLA is only releasing 2-3 games per week. That provides plenty of spotlight for new games to be seen before they are mixed with the hundred shitty games according ot the developers. On top of that, this game got plenty of coverage in the gaming mags. I remember reading about it in OXM, EGM and Game Informer.


What i got from it wasn't that no one bought it, but that the sheer amount of crap greenlit makes it harder for people to weed through it all on their own in order to make their own decision based on the demo.

Maybe so, but it is implied. If the numbers were there would they even be making this argument? My guess is they wouldn't care.


The thing is, when you strip things down like with XBLA games, you can't get too much of a feel from a screenshot. Afterall, the point with these games, more than with the current mainstream big titles, is that the focus is more on the gameplay. Right? And the way to check that out is via demos. Surely people on this forum, of all places, can see this point.

Ahh, but that's not what the developers are saying. They are saying demos should be enough for you, and that you don't need to download the game, at least if its not their game...


RB: The retro games thing I also don't get, because Double Dragon is not a game you ever need to play again. It was great. It was so good. But who's buying that if there's a demo?

N+ may not be a retro game, but it takes its inspiration from retro titles.

This leads me to wonder if these guys even play any XBLA games, especially the demos. A demo does not give you the full experience of the game. Most demos last like 1 maybe 2 minutes. Even the Retro title demos are brief, and have you wanting more. Playing the demo of Double Dragon will not satisfy your desire to play a retro beat 'em up.


Mare: People are used to seeing crap on there.

Raigan: If I was a consumer, I could see not even looking at Live Arcade games anymore if I had downloaded 10 or 20 demos, because at a certain point, you're like, "Whatever. Maybe there's a good game in here.

Moreover, how hard is it to scroll through X amount of games listed and download a demo in the first place? I don't think the number of releases are the problem. Part of their problem is marketing. If you give your game some obnoxious name that has been used over and over, like "Xtreme Whatever", or a bland or generic name like "N+", what do you expect?

[Tep]

Another reason why only Japanese homebrew is called doujin...

[skaar]

The dismissive comments "Oh I'm not even going to bother trying it" are what get to me the most out of this thread. The game actually reminds me more of a really upgraded Jumpman more than Lode Runner. Seriously, Lode Runner?

It seems people are perfectly willing to voice a strong opinion while being ignorant of facts. The fact that they'll say something along the lines of "Well I don't really know anything about this but this is what I think" boggles my mind.

I bought N+ the other day on a friend's recommendation (I had downloaded the demo a week prior and liked it, was just waffling on buying more points)

And it's a very fun, very creative piece of work. Props to the devs for a solid title. And boo to anyone who feels the need to subject others to a worthless and foundless opinion.

Go team Venture.

[Gabriel]

And boo to anyone who feels the need to subject others to a worthless and foundless opinion.


You mean like the developers in this saga?



The dismissive comments "Oh I'm not even going to bother trying it" are what get to me the most out of this thread. The game actually reminds me more of a really upgraded Jumpman more than Lode Runner. Seriously, Lode Runner?

It seems people are perfectly willing to voice a strong opinion while being ignorant of facts. The fact that they'll say something along the lines of "Well I don't really know anything about this but this is what I think" boggles my mind.

I bought N+ the other day on a friend's recommendation (I had downloaded the demo a week prior and liked it, was just waffling on buying more points)

And it's a very fun, very creative piece of work. Props to the devs for a solid title.


Personally, I don't care about the title. It didn't grab my attention before and it doesn't grab my attention now. I have no opinion about the game beyond the fact that the videos remind me of Lode Runner, and the visuals are of the quality of a simple flash game. It could be the greatest game of all time, and I simply wouldn't care.

And that's the crux of the matter. The developers in this story are saying they can't get exposure for their game, because it doesn't stand out amidst the sea of "crap." I'm just saying that's not actually the case. It's not a shit sargasso N+ floats amongst. For someone like myself, the apathy regarding N+ is not caused by lots of other bad games, but because the other games are so cool that it dims any lustre which N+ might have.

It's one thing to not care. It's quite another to condemn all other games as shit. N+ is irrelevant. The commentary on other games was what I was addressing. By their own admission, the developers in the interview don't bother playing anything.

[blissfulnoise]

It didn't grab my attention before and it doesn't grab my attention now. I have no opinion about the game beyond the fact that the videos remind me of Lode Runner, and the visuals are of the quality of a simple flash game. It could be the greatest game of all time, and I simply wouldn't care.

You're certainly welcome to play the game or not; but to deny yourself a solid, unique gaming experience baffles me. Even if you ultimately don't like it, you've at least tried something new. And the fact you can enjoy (or not) what it has to offer for free in about 10 minutes is even more encouragement to do so. In fact it takes as much time to watch a video of it on YouTube as it does to go play the flash game itself (which you can do here (http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=12114)).

The visuals look like a simple flash game because it is a simple flash game.

Though I am curious; how does this game remind you of load runner? It plays nothing like it, it looks nothing like it, and the game concept sounds nothing like it. Perhaps you don't recall what Load Runner plays or looks like; it's like saying that BurgerTime reminds you of Q*Bert.

[Gabriel]

You're certainly welcome to play the game or not; but to deny yourself a solid, unique gaming experience baffles me. Even if you ultimately don't like it, you've at least tried something new. And the fact you can enjoy (or not) what it has to offer for free in about 10 minutes is even more encouragement to do so. In fact it takes as much time to watch a video of it on YouTube as it does to go play the flash game itself (which you can do here (http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=12114)).

The visuals look like a simple flash game because it is a simple flash game.

Though I am curious; how does this game remind you of load runner? It plays nothing like it, it looks nothing like it, and the game concept sounds nothing like it. Perhaps you don't recall what Load Runner plays or looks like; it's like saying that BurgerTime reminds you of Q*Bert.


As I was typing this, I did check out the flash version you linked to. I would definitely say my comparison to Lode Runner is accurate. It's an "Xtrem" version of Lode Runner, but the general gameplay is similar enough.

The goal appears to be to collect gold items and the visuals certainly are reminiscent of Lode Runner. Then there's the level editor, which is another close similarity to Lode Runner. The appearrance of a stick figure exploring a platforming world has definite ties to the classic Lode Runner. The play itself is based around puzzles and herding enemies to help solve those puzzles, just like Lode Runner. So, despite what you say, it shares a few key distinctive similarities with that older game. I really don't think anyone who has played Lode Runner on the Apple II would miss the resemblance.

Definitely not anything I'd care to play again, and definitely not anything I'd pay to download. If you like it, more power to ya.

Incidentally, the Wikipedia article on the game says it was inspired by Lode Runner.

Edit: And the official homepage of N says "N is an award winning 2d action/puzzle platformer reminiscent of Lode Runner." So, I guess the creators of the game thought it played a bit like it too.

[ProgrammingAce]

I find it strange when game developers forget that this is still an entertainment medium. If you don't spend money on advertising, then nobody is going to hear anything about your game after the first month.

If you don't have money for advertising, too bad. Come up with venture capital like everybody else. Making games is dificult, expensive, and it's easy to loose your shirt. If you don't like it, go back to making freeware PC games like everybody else.

Remember, just getting a game rated by the ESRB is $80,000. Getting through microsoft's certification is more then that. If you're going to spend that kind of dough on your game, you had better put some cash aside for advertising...

N+ doesn't stand out because the developers made no attempt to make the game stand out. It has simple visuals, a difficult name to search for, and is made by a company with no history in console development. Again, this is an entertainment medium. You have to make people want your product, they won't come searching for you.

[blissfulnoise]

Incidentally, the Wikipedia article on the game says it was inspired by Lode Runner.

Then maybe I'm the daft one because I don't really see it.

After all, a core element in N/N+ is the ability to jump, something completely missing from Load Runner. And likewise, a core ability in Load Runner is to dig holes to trap monsters, this is also missing from N/N+ in all forms; you can simply avoid the MOBs, not herd or contain them (though, to be fair, this is possible with the level editor). The environment you navigate is also entirely different substituting ladders and rope hangs with jump boxes, geometric objects, and trampolines.

I guess in a very loose way the level framework is similar to Load Runner as are collecting "gold objects", but beyond that, similarities seem superficial to me.

But who am I to argue with the official web site.

I am glad you checked out the game for yourself though; sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it. Personally, I think it’s a strong evolution to physics based platforming pioneered by games like Prince of Persia.

[Jon R.]

If that's not whiny, then at the very least its arrogance. Just as Minter was bitching about how Frogger was outselling Space Giraffe, these guys can't figure out how games like Uno are popular. Frankly, if they can't figure that out, maybe they shouldn't be developing games. As I said in my post in the "Space Giraffe" thread, it is the developers job to make sure we get it. If we don't, it is their fault, not ours. (See also Lair and the Sixxaxis controls).

The interviewer briefly touches on it, and the developers simply blow over this, and that is that XBLA is only releasing 2-3 games per week. That provides plenty of spotlight for new games to be seen before they are mixed with the hundred shitty games according ot the developers. On top of that, this game got plenty of coverage in the gaming mags. I remember reading about it in OXM, EGM and Game Informer.

Well, i think that's actually part of the context of their gripes. I have zero interest in spinning anything any developer says, but they also did mention how a racer in the vein of Off Road was turned down because MS felt there were too many racing games. They seemed to find this absurd, since in their opinion all the available racing games that were supposedly saturating the XBLA market were shit.

"Nick has this racing...do you know Iron Man Off-Road Racing, like the old arcade game? It's four-player, and a little isometric. Nick made a racing game like that, and Microsoft was like, 'Well, racing is too saturated on Live Arcade.' But that's because they've greenlit like ten really shitty racing games. There's no good racing games."

The lead-in to that was:
"RB: I think the thing with Live Arcade, though, is that I remember the last year and the year before. Two years ago was when we were first talking with Microsoft about doing it, it was really exciting, because Live Arcade had just came out, and they were like, 'Oh, it's new. It's not going to be like retail. There's not going to be all this crap. There's going to be all these small, great, fun things.'

But now it's exactly the same. There's all these big-budget ones with big publishers making them, and the real problem, I think, is that the same people who are deciding what retail games get greenlit are deciding what Live Arcade games get greenlit."

So it would seem that even with the 1-2 releases per week, the way things are greenlit is screwy. From that, it sounds like MS doesn't care about the quality of the games, but the quantity. To me it seems absurd that you can't even make a game that rises above the rest if some nimrod already greenlit too many inferior games in the same genre.


Maybe so, but it is implied. If the numbers were there would they even be making this argument? My guess is they wouldn't care.

I don't know, but that's sort of the catch with the interview. It was given before N+ was release over XBLA. http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2008/03/24/n-creators-stand-behind-their-anti-xbla-rant/


Ahh, but that's not what the developers are saying. They are saying demos should be enough for you, and that you don't need to download the game, at least if its not their game...

I didn't see that at all. Maybe it's my own experiences bleeding through, but what i ultimately saw was them saying that demos are actually the best way for people to decide, but that you get a problem with "demo fatigue" if you greenlight too much garbage.


This leads me to wonder if these guys even play any XBLA games, especially the demos. A demo does not give you the full experience of the game. Most demos last like 1 maybe 2 minutes. Even the Retro title demos are brief, and have you wanting more. Playing the demo of Double Dragon will not satisfy your desire to play a retro beat 'em up.

I know exactly what you mean there, as i just recently spent some time looking over that exact issue for PC demos. But what i took from it is that most people already know what the deal is with Double Dragon. They also said something about how things aren't broken up between retro re-releases and original XBLA games.


Moreover, how hard is it to scroll through X amount of games listed and download a demo in the first place? I don't think the number of releases are the problem. Part of their problem is marketing. If you give your game some obnoxious name that has been used over and over, like "Xtreme Whatever", or a bland or generic name like "N+", what do you expect?

Well, that gets into the issue of just what XBLA is supposed to be. Is it supposed to be an avenue for cheaper indie games, or is it supposed to be the same sort of "marketing blitz or die" rigamarole as with mainstream releases, but with crappier games? And the thing about scrolling through the listed games for demos gets a bit harrier depending on the size of that list.

[CartCollector]

The problem with XBLA is that if it proves to be profitable, then it will eventually be like brick and mortar stores. A whole bunch of clone games will flood the market. However, the situation could be improved if Microsoft has a gamerankings-type system where one can get an average review score (both average professional and average consumer) for each game, along with reviews. Also, there could be a search engine where one can search based on average score, minimum amount of reviews, etc. This would make it hard for indies to get started, but profit has never come easy to the average indie. I also doubt whether Microsoft would have the audacity to list what reviewers think of each game right next to it when it would benefit them to sell it, but it would help build consumer trust. No matter what, the indie paradise that XBLA started out as can't continue indefinitely.

[Leo_A]

There's only been 4 or 5 racing games on XBLA, though they all sucked. I wish they had approved that project, it sounds like it was heading in a good direction that might've been a lot of fun.

[skaar]

I still say it's way closer to Jumpman. Screw Lode Runner.

[Melf]

I read somewhere (don't remember where) that N+ had exceeded sales expectations. If that's true, then I'd like to see the developer's reactions. I'd also like to see sales numbers, so that we can compare them to how well N+ does when it's released for the PSP and DS. That way, we can truly see if the developers are right or just whining excessively.

And for all the complaints about the shovelware on XBLA, why are the confined to there? PSN will have more as it picks up steam, and WiiWare already has cell phone ports lined up, and it's not even released yet. If the N+ guys have a problem with releasing their games on platforms with lots of crap, they might as well get out of the industry now.