How long do CD-based games last?

[Cornelius]

So, do these discs with pinholes work, or not?

[LucidDefender]

So, do these discs with pinholes work, or not?

CDs have ECC*, so small errors can be corrected. As long as there's enough ECC data to correct the errors, the discs with the pinholes will be fine, unless it gets worse.


*Certain methods/modes of writing CDs do not contain ECC data, such as VCDs, which is why they may contain, for example, 800MB of data, vs 700MB.

[G-Boobie]

Gold will not oxidize, even on Earth. Gold is near the bottom of the activity series, and only oxidizes over very long periods of time, if at all (Gold and Silver are the only metals other than occasionally Copper that can be found pure in the crust). So, a gold record will still be fine here after 30 years, too.

Yeah, good call. Sorry; I just read my post you quoted and kicked myself in the ass. I can't seem to win in this thread... :frustrated:

What I meant was since there's no atmosphere or anything else in space that could be either reductive or oxidative, that record is A-OK and nevermind what it's made of.

[MrSparkle]

I can only assume that the CD still works, which makes it 14 years old, which means you'd better play it quick. You've only got a few months left to enjoy it.

The fact is, optical media is pretty fucking stable: the data is encoded into a non-degradable, crystalline, polymer surface. We're not talking punch cards or magnetized tape, here. We're talking high grade plastics.

Don't scratch your media, don't bake your media, don't submerge your media, and you'll be fine.

i mistakenly dropped my snatcher proto into a vat of boiling oil so i tried to bake and then scratch it off, i can has help?? </sarcasm> lol

[rarebucky]

I have a different problem with some of my US Saturn games that I don't believe has been mentioned here. Some of them over the years have gotten "cloudy" on the playing side and it is kind of rough to the touch. All of the work fine, save for one (Herc's Adventures) which has some pixellated menus. The discs otherwise are mint and were all bought new by me and stored in their cases. Is anyone familiar with this? It feels like one of the layers has separated slightly from the disc. If you need pics I can take but it basically looks like cloudy splotches.

[slackur]

Cornelius, the discs I have that did not originally have pinholes worked for years. Now, after the pinholes, some do not (and the ones that do, most of them I have not played all the way through to properly test them.)

So, it can and sometimes does create enough loss of data to be unplayable or at least effect the game (freezes, lost audio, etc.)

Rarebucky, I have noticed the clouding issue on Saturn games also. It seems to be the same issue you are describing. I also noticed a few Sega CD games with similar splotches. I'll have to research my collection and see if any of the clouded discs were purchased new.

[rarebucky]

Here are a few pics from my Daytona CE and Baku Baku, both of which I bought new and have been in storage. You will see the splotches I referred to. They have a different texture than the rest of the CD. It feels rougher than the rest of the disc.

http://i46.servimg.com/u/f46/11/66/25/34/th/img_2710.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=51&u=11662534)

http://i46.servimg.com/u/f46/11/66/25/34/th/img_2711.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=52&u=11662534)

[slackur]

Rarebucky, what kind of storage conditions were those discs in? Extreme temperatures, humidity, lava, death ray, normal storage? Anything that might be related?

[Icarus Moonsight]

Pro tip: Lava not good. If your Public Storage unit is inside an active volcano, consider relocating your stuff. ;)

[Bratwurst]

The clouding/texturizing is oxidization of the plastic. Not much you can do to prevent or treat it.

[G-Boobie]

The clouding/texturizing is oxidization of the plastic. Not much you can do to prevent or treat it.

It's not oxidization of the plastic. The kind of plastic used in CDs and DVDs is very, very stable(assuming it isn't heated, frozen or dropped in lava...). Even then it would be physical damage, not actual redox.

/End nitpick :-D

It looks like heat damage or a bad pressing to me. Anyone else?

[rarebucky]

It's not heat damage. They had been stored in cool, dry temperatures ever since I bought them (my closet actually). One day I decided to play some of my Saturn games and found about 1/3 of them had this clouding. I'd like to know if anyone else has seen this on their games.

[slackur]

Rarebucky, I've seen it before on a handful of discs, notably Saturn, but I think I already replaced those discs. In retrospect, I have seen more of this type of clouding on playstation (black) discs. In my retail experience I've seen the clouding issue but it is often from a buffed/resurfaced disc. I can say from personal experience that maybe half a dozen of my games (Saturn, Sega CD, and PSX games I think) clouded like that and I had to replace them.

Almost totally forgot about that, actually.

But yours sounds like a far greater epidemic. Did the games stop loading properly? You say the physical texture is different? And you don't know of any other environmental cause? How many discs are we talking about? Where were you on the night of January 10th, 1979? WHERE ARE THE CHILDREN?!?!

Er, sorry.

But now you have me curious/concerned.

[rarebucky]

There could be no other cause other than just deterioation over time due to the discs not being produced properly. They have been in boxes since I have owned them, so no odd environmental conditions at play. And yes, the spots that are cloudy feel different when you run your finger over them. They load fine though. As I said, they all seem to play fine except for Herc's Adventures which has some glitchy graphics on some screens.

[The Manimal]

Any optical media will be rendered a coaster through other means (scratches, spontaneous disk drive explosion or a microwave sparkler) long before it physically degrades into one. From what I recall, optical disks can last hundreds of years if nothing unfortunate occurs.

As long as they've been properly manufactured.

[The Manimal]

There are only a couple of things I can think of to account for your problem. One, is that something is wearing away at the top of your discs, which can lead to problems with the discs being read by the laser and would also account for the visible 'holes' you've discovered; the holes themselves would then be, in reality, spots worn thin in the decal. Another possibility is that you've been repeatedly screwed into buying really crappy pirate 'burn' discs and the dye is breaking down en masse, and it's taking the actual physical part of your discs with it out of spite.

Any game that's a genuine, factory-made disc is going to be a 'pressed disc'. This means that the CD or DVD is created by imprinting the data on to the disc using hydraulic pressure. The problem with the idea of visible 'bit rot' in factory pressed discs is therefore pretty straightforward: pressed discs cannot degrade the way you've described. They can't. Pressed discs are made of aluminum and very pure polycarbonate plastic: two very stable materials with shelf lives measured in decades(proper storage allowing, of course). There is absolutely no organic matter to degrade: this is the magic of technology. There are a few blatant examples of manufacturers screwing up and causing physical breakdown of pressed discs-Flack mentioned the dreaded CD bronzing incident already- but those are well-known and to my knowledge have not been repeated. The dye in rewritable media is an entirely different story, however, so I suppose that could be your problem.

I hang out with, know, work with, and am generally aware of literally hundreds of professed media junkies. I myself have thousands of pressed discs and have never encountered your problem: in fact, I just checked two hundred discs from my collection from all eras of disc-based media and didn't encounter a single 'pin hole'. A quick click on AIM and the IM network at work confirms that no one else I know has ever had this problem.

The orientation of the discs in storage, horizontal or vertical, is irrelevant. The residue left by humidity or chemical exposure would affect the discs in a far more obvious and blatant way... DO you work with a lot of chemicals?

Not trying to blow you off here, but are you looking closely?


I've read a lot about the pin holes deal, and for years panicked about it. At this point, I'm thinking that perhaps these pinholes may have been there from the beginning. You don't notice them on newer discs because there's labels on them covering them. From what I understand about how CDs are made (in a oversimplified way), the impressions are pressed into the polycarbonate, and then the layer of aluminum is then applied into those pits and across the disc, and then a protective lacquer is then applied on top. Depending on how well the aluminum was applied to disc, this could account for the pinholes. Some discs have aluminum layers which have no pinholes but are almost see through - I'd assume these had a very thin layer of aluminum applied. At this current time, I save my panic for things like chips on the outside of the disc (if the lacquer is chipped, it will continue to flake off!), scratches on the label side which could then expose the aluminum layer to the elements and thus oxidation. I do look for pinholes though, but won't pass up a disc if they're very very minor. Heck, sometimes you'd buy a disc after closely examining under light in the store thinking is perfect, and months later, notice some really tiny hole you somehow missed. But for really large ones or lots of holes, I'll wait for another copy. As far as people saying these discs worked years ago but dont' work now. Are you using the same player? Different players have different levels of error correction. My newish Marantz CD burner skips if you even have a spec of dust on the disc - and it skips on so many Metal Blade CDs!

[The Manimal]

Here are a few pics from my Daytona CE and Baku Baku, both of which I bought new and have been in storage. You will see the splotches I referred to. They have a different texture than the rest of the CD. It feels rougher than the rest of the disc.

http://i46.servimg.com/u/f46/11/66/25/34/th/img_2710.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=51&u=11662534)

http://i46.servimg.com/u/f46/11/66/25/34/th/img_2711.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=52&u=11662534)

I'd guess that is oxidation. Probably bad lacquer application. Aluminum tools and other things created in high school shop class out of aluminum oxidize and look that whitish color.

[Cauterize]

Although this is not going to be the most helpful post ever... Doesnt this make a lot of you please that cartridges are somewhat longer lasting! (I hope im not wrong saying that!)

Unfortunately though, this is the way the world works... Find a cheap method to distribute, find a cheaper medium, keep going till profits are the highest possible...
Weve all seen/witnessed first hand the 360 Deaths, its about time games companies took their hands out of their wallets and designed something robust that can actually be played!

And on that note, why is it the 360 i owned died within 2 years (of not much play)
Yet the Sega CD, 3DO, PCE-Duo and CD32 all seem to be fine running day in day out a good decade on?

[Joe West]

what i heard & read, in the rite temperture 8-10 years