What if 2D Gaming was still King?

[Juskin]

I know many of us here are classic gamers, like myself.

I always wondered what it would be like if the industry never fully embraced 3D, and kept its 2D roots. Some game types work best or only work in 2D, I see the positives in them. I definitely miss series like Super Mario Bros. Sure, Galaxy is a fantastic game, but it will never be exactly the same thing as its 2D brothers.

Would you guys want 2D over 3D in these days, or are you glad that it's the way it is currently?

[MrRoboto19XX]

Although I think things aren't that bad right now, I do wish we hadn't left 2D gaming totally behind. We could be seeing some truly beautiful sprites on the hardware we have now, but there are problems in this scenario:

1) We would have a glut of truly terrible side scrollers, imagine the library of gba crap titles, but for each current gen system and handheld. Ugh.

2) Truly in-depth games would tend to be either RPGs or Metroidvania type titles. There wouldn't really be any room for Gran Turismos, and sports games would be far more arcadey. "Serious" action games, like Call of Duty and the GTA series would be either Doom like or stuck in their early stages (like GTA 1 and 2).

It would be an interesting world, maybe there'd be more Earthbound love....

[strassy]

2D all day, every day. the whole reason that NES, SNES, and Genesis are my favorite systems is because they are more accessible. 3D games tend to get too overwheming for my simple mind to handle.

[Atari 5200]

Playing Goemon's Great Adventure in 2.5D was awesome and wish that there were more games like it. I really do miss 2D. Hmmm.....

[Juskin]

Playing Goemon's Great Adventure in 2.5D was awesome and wish that there were more games like it. I really do miss 2D. Hmmm.....

If you haven't yet already, check out the Klonoa series.

[Atari 5200]

If you haven't yet already, check out the Klonoa series.

Will do!

[Smashed Brother]

Growing up in the era of the NES and the like, and inspite of the revolutionary advances in the realm of laser-scanned hi-res facial features, bump-mapped buttocks and complex algorithms precisely calculating at which angle those tits will bounce upon pushing down-right X, my first love will ALWAYS be 2D gaming!

2d games, while somewhat limited and linear in nature compared to their 3D counterparts (like the GTA comparison mentioned earlier), convey a sense of emotion and depth in their animation that 3D is still unable to match, IMO. How would Castlevania SOTN fare in 3D? Would it keep all of those subtle little nuances in the animation of it's characters? Even Valkyrie Profile 2, with it's pretty little polys and 60fps animation, is still graphically inferior to the nearly 8 year old PSX original, simply because it's missing 'character'.

I suppose that this topic could (and probably will) be argued ad-nauseum from both sides of the camp and rightfully so. But, I'll tell ya, when I first played Odin Sphere, I almost cried tears of joy for that bygone era. :(

[emceelokey]

I don't care much about the whole 2d being king but I just feel that 2d could have progressed so much more if it were only utilized more often through out each generation since the SNES days. Odin Sphere is a fantastic work of 2d art but before that there was really only the Guilty Gear games and before that the only games that kept 2d alive were Capcom and SNK fighting games. Look at how 3D progressed since the PS1 days. If 2d were practiced as much in the past 2 generations I seriously think there could be some really awesome 2d games.

I don't think the fact that 2d would necessairly limit any gameplay. If 2d were just as viable as 3d diring the past 2 generations then I think that developers would think in 2d and develop games working around that but Sony always had something against 2d games and if a developer was going to be hindered by that for the most popular system of the past two generations then why would they even go in that direction in the first place.

[tom]

Didn't we go back? All these titles on DS are 1D, learn English, teach your brain, sudoku, better math, etc...

[Ed Oscuro]

Contra
4

2D is still pretty close to king, in my view.

[James8BitStar]

While I prefer 2D to 3D, the problem IMO doesn't have to do with 3D at all--or at least, not entirely.

The main thing I dislike about 3D games is their slowness. It seems like a boss fight that would've taken me thirty seconds in a 2D game takes an hour in a 3D one. However, this isn't 3D's fault--this is just an artifact of game design's changing mentalities. For example: in the time it takes to just beat the first boss in Strider 2, you could've beaten the original Strider. Or how long it takes to cross the overworld in Zelda: LTTP compared to OoT. Or the original Final Fantasy's "X cast FIR2, Y takes 35 damage! Terminated!" versus the mini-cutscenes magic illicits in the more recent Final Fantasy games.

But I don't think this is an inherent flaw of 3D games, mostly because I've seen a few that aren't slow--namely, Mega Man Legends, which is a perfect example of a 3D game with 2D design mentality.

[Kevincal]

The Sonic series sure took a dump with the move to 3d. It was atleast 10 times better in 2d. After so many 3d Sonic fails, why in the hell has Sega not tried to go back to a 2d Sonic? Makes no sense... They haven't even tried once...

[Nitrosport]

The Sonic series sure took a dump with the move to 3d. It was atleast 10 times better in 2d. After so many 3d Sonic fails, why in the hell has Sega not tried to go back to a 2d Sonic? Makes no sense... They haven't even tried once...




Kevincal, Checkout the new Sonic game: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8JhZOfgj7Qc

I think it may turn out good.

[DarthKur]

What if 2D Gaming was still King?

I'd still be interested in new games and systems.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Well, it may no longer be "king" ... but at least in the niche it currently resides in, when it IS executed as a gameplay style it's (usually) done with a respectable amount of style/care. (Castlevania, Contra, Super Mario etc.)

And as long as we're on the topic - for any 2D junkies that missed it on PS1 (but still have a PS2 or a PS3) - track down a copy of SkullMonkeys. Awesome (and ridiculously challenging) 2D platforming.

[Superman]

If 2D gaming was still dominant, I would be happier with more of the current games.

That would also be a downside, since I would have a lot more games that would be needed for my collection.

[Trevelyan]

Its an interesting question...! I say the king is dead, long live the king, whatever that means!

I suppose 3d (or whatever) games rule, but do they hold a candle to SMB 3 for example!?

I say peace & one love! Let us all game on & embrace the new as long as its fun!!

:villagepeople::band:

[kedawa]

I would love it if there were modern 3D games that used the kind of graphics engine used in games like Afterburner and Turbo Outrun.

[Kevincal]

Kevincal, Checkout the new Sonic game: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8JhZOfgj7Qc

I think it may turn out good.

Ya I know about this game and have seen this vid. It still looks mostly 2.5d and 3d...

[Juskin]

Its an interesting question...! I say the king is dead, long live the king, whatever that means!

I suppose 3d (or whatever) games rule, but do they hold a candle to SMB 3 for example!?

I say peace & one love! Let us all game on & embrace the new as long as its fun!!

:villagepeople::band:

I agree, the simplicity that makes many 2D games so great just can't be recreated in full 3D, and that's why 2D needs to make a comeback. These shallow 2D downloadable games we're getting just aren't satisfying enough for the 2D gamer in me.

Super Mario 3 is still my favorite game of all time. Both dimensions are equally great in their own ways from where I'm standing.

[Kevincal]

Mario 3 is pure gaming bliss. :D

[Juskin]

Mario 3 is pure gaming bliss. :D

Quoted for quotability.

There will never be a game as great as Super Mario Bros. 3 was...is. I guess I can live with that though, it's just that awesome!

[Iron Draggon]

The Sonic series sure took a dump with the move to 3d. It was atleast 10 times better in 2d. After so many 3d Sonic fails, why in the hell has Sega not tried to go back to a 2d Sonic? Makes no sense... They haven't even tried once...

what I don't understand about all the 3D Sonic games is why the hell does the camera always change to a different perspective when you run through the loops? we all wanted a 3D Sonic, because we all thought that it would allow us to run through the loops in first person perspective, and yet with all the hardware of the last 3 generations being more than capable of that, stupid Sega still has yet to see fit to grant us such a simple pleasure... they even could've done it for us on the fucking Genesis, and the bonus stages in Sonic 2 seemed to indicate that eventually they would let us do it, but NO!!! so we could drive through loops in first person perspective in games as old as Hard Drivin and Race Drivin on the Genesis, but stupid Sonic still can't run through a loop in first person perspective yet, despite the ability of the latest hardware to make it possible for him to do so while spinning on multiple axes? WTF is wrong with you, Sega? he should be blazing through loops while doing the Tazmanian Devil spin by now, you stupid lazy fucks! program him to do it!

[NayusDante]

2D games definitely have a greater degree of accessibility. Try getting the average person to sit down and figure out Oblivion, and odds are that they'll get somewhat confused, disoriented, and generally lost. If it were in the same perspective as say, classic Zelda and Final Fantasy, the gameplay remains the same and the game becomes much more easy to comprehend, visually. In a 2D game, you can't get an object stuck under a rock.

Now that I think about it, something like a 2D overhead Oblivion would be very interesting.

[Juskin]

2D games definitely have a greater degree of accessibility. Try getting the average person to sit down and figure out Oblivion, and odds are that they'll get somewhat confused, disoriented, and generally lost. If it were in the same perspective as say, classic Zelda and Final Fantasy, the gameplay remains the same and the game becomes much more easy to comprehend, visually. In a 2D game, you can't get an object stuck under a rock.

Now that I think about it, something like a 2D overhead Oblivion would be very interesting.

Hmm I love the 2D zeldas, but I think the series just works better in 3D. I can't really put into words why, but to me those types of overhead games already felt somewhat 3D in the beginning, so they might as well just be 3D.

But yeah, like you said, they definitely would prove to be more accessible in that way. And who knows maybe I'm wrong, and there's still other potential lingering around there too.

With other games though, like your Castlevanias, Street Fighters, and Super Mario Brothers, I still see some valid potential in 2D.

[NayusDante]

Not sure if you guys have noticed it or not, but gaming isn't the only media where 2D is going out the window. If you're old enough to read a forum, then I think you'll understand the point I want to make.

Cartoons have taken a cue from games and gone 3D. If you think about it, the costs of doing a series in CGI would be CHEAPER than traditional animation. With CGI, all you have to do is use recycled models and move them around differently for each episode. The same concept is applied to current "2D" cartoons, which are really Flash-style animation. Why draw frame by frame when you can use dynamic vector-based animation? This generation of kids is going to grow up not knowing what traditional animation is.

There was a joke in an episode of The Simpsons a while back relating to animation, in which a child asks Krusty if the Itchy and Scratchy special would be done live, to which the response is that last time was too much of a strain on the animator's wrists. Today, such an idea is entirely possible, and it should be noted that The Simpsons is now animated with the same modern animation techniques as other series.

So it's not just games, it's media. There's more profit in something easier to do, because it takes less talant to create it. Anyone can do vector animation or move a 3D model, but it takes talant to draw animation frames or create decent-quality sprites.

[Juskin]

Not sure if you guys have noticed it or not, but gaming isn't the only media where 2D is going out the window. If you're old enough to read a forum, then I think you'll understand the point I want to make.

Cartoons have taken a cue from games and gone 3D. If you think about it, the costs of doing a series in CGI would be CHEAPER than traditional animation. With CGI, all you have to do is use recycled models and move them around differently for each episode. The same concept is applied to current "2D" cartoons, which are really Flash-style animation. Why draw frame by frame when you can use dynamic vector-based animation? This generation of kids is going to grow up not knowing what traditional animation is.

There was a joke in an episode of The Simpsons a while back relating to animation, in which a child asks Krusty if the Itchy and Scratchy special would be done live, to which the response is that last time was too much of a strain on the animator's wrists. Today, such an idea is entirely possible, and it should be noted that The Simpsons is now animated with the same modern animation techniques as other series.

So it's not just games, it's media. There's more profit in something easier to do, because it takes less talant to create it. Anyone can do vector animation or move a 3D model, but it takes talant to draw animation frames or create decent-quality sprites.

Yup, this I know.

There's something about 2D animation that still has yet to be topped by full 3D graphics. Until they can top it, back off 3D media!

[Rob2600]

With 2D gaming, I really enjoyed the cool tricks developers would come up with to make the games more 3D sometimes, like the final boss battles in Super Mario World and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, the spinning blue hallway in Super Castlevania IV, the airplane flying towards the screen in the first level of Contra III, the ability to throw foot soldiers at the screen in TMNT IV: Turtles in Time, the rotating spiral staircase in Mega Man X4, etc.


The Sonic series sure took a dump with the move to 3d. It was atleast 10 times better in 2d. After so many 3d Sonic fails, why in the hell has Sega not tried to go back to a 2d Sonic? Makes no sense... They haven't even tried once...

Actually, from 2001 to 2004, Sega released three highly-rated 2D Sonic the Hedgehog games for the Game Boy Advance.

[FrakAttack]

If you haven't yet already, check out the Klonoa series.

Would also recommend Tomba! 1 & 2.

[Juskin]

With 2D gaming, I really enjoyed the cool tricks developers would come up with to make the games more 3D sometimes, like the final boss battles in Super Mario World and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, the spinning blue hallway in Super Castlevania IV, the airplane flying towards the screen in the first level of Contra III, the ability to throw foot soldiers at the screen in TMNT IV: Turtles in Time, the rotating spiral staircase in Mega Man X4, etc.



Actually, from 2001 to 2004, Sega released three highly-rated 2D Sonic the Hedgehog games for the Game Boy Advance.

No offense, but the Sonic Advance games were very mediocre.

[Rob2600]

No offense, but the Sonic Advance games were very mediocre.

How can something be very mediocre? :)

Anyway, I'm not offended. I'm just going by the review scores:

Sonic Advance - 8.4 overall
Sonic Advance 2 - 8.3 overall
Sonic Advance 3 - 7.9 overall

Also, I was responding to what Kevincal wrote. "After so many 3d Sonic fails, why in the hell has Sega not tried to go back to a 2d Sonic? Makes no sense... They haven't even tried once..."

I proved that Sega did indeed try...and more than once.

[Berserker]

I really can't even seem to make myself envision this "what if". Sorry, but with technology moving as fast as it has in the last 20 years, even if the industry was still clinging to 2D, someone would've taken it upon themselves to try and make a 3D game, it would've caught on in the industry, and we'd be where we are now, or maybe a little behind.

Thankfully though I don't really need to entertain any pipe dreams, because the one wish I had for 2D gaming, that it would be able to carve out some kind of niche in which to exist, has already been granted.

[Kevincal]

How can something be very mediocre? :)

Anyway, I'm not offended. I'm just going by the review scores:

Sonic Advance - 8.4 overall
Sonic Advance 2 - 8.3 overall
Sonic Advance 3 - 7.9 overall

Also, I was responding to what Kevincal wrote. "After so many 3d Sonic fails, why in the hell has Sega not tried to go back to a 2d Sonic? Makes no sense... They haven't even tried once..."

I proved that Sega did indeed try...and more than once.

Ya, that's true I had forgotten about those. I don't know much about the Sonic Advances because I don't like portable systems much... :( What I really meant is another major 2d Sonic game on a console...

[Juskin]

Ya, that's true I had forgotten about those. I don't know much about the Sonic Advances because I don't like portable systems much... :( What I really meant is another major 2d Sonic game on a console...

As long as Sonicteam is making their main sonic titles, there's just no hope...