In Defense of Grinding

[James8BitStar]

NOTE: I'm sticking to my own pet term for RPGs, the "Character Growth Epic." Let's hope it catches on!

There are a few things that, every time CGEs are brought up (or near every) I see someone or sometwo complain about. It's about time someone stood up and defended it.

One in particular: Levelling.

Or, as some of you might say, "crunching" or "grinding." I say Levelling, one because it sounds somehow better and two because crunching and grinding are usually done by my teeth, not my characters.

Honestly, I kind of like levelling. For one thing, it is very relaxing. Just walking from town to town killing things is a good way to relieve stress (much better than FPSes which can be so fast-paced that they CAUSE stress), and its even better knowing that you're getting rewarded for it ("Oh yeah I have all this gold left over from yesterday when I went around pretending that orcs were my bitchy ex-girlfriend! I guess I CAN afford this armor after all! WOOHOO!") I'll admit its kind of tedious in MMORPGs where there's no ultimate goal to be accomplished so you're just grinding for the hell of it and the rewards are moot. Fortunately this isn't a problem in any single-player RPG that doesn't have "Elder Scrolls" in the title.

But there's another thing. No matter how you break it down, levelling up is what CGEs are about. That's why they're called Character Growth Epics. Complaining about there being too much of it is like playing a first-person shooter and complaining that there's too much shooting. Simply put, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the game. You don't buy cheese and complain that it tastes like cheese so why would you complain about an RP--err, CGE that plays like a CGE?

That's all for tonight. I wanted to defend other CGE Tropes and design conventions, but I couldn't think of any that were referenced enough.

[mailman187666]

I think levelling in RPGs is crucial for me to be able to get into it. Some RPGs such as Lost Odysey are ok by me although they make it a bit tougher when levelling your characters. Honestly though, leveling like older dragon warrior and final fantasy games have definately not lost its spark for me. I don't want any level caps, and I want to be able to destroy the game after enough playing time. I can't remember the last rpg that stuck to classic style gameplay. Maybe Blue Dragon?

[Daria]

I just want to say more RPGs (I defy your attempt to recatagorize a genre! :P) need Yangus's "whistle" command from Dragon Quest 8. Why waste time running in circles when you can summon a "random" battle at will. Makes the whole leveling process progress fluidly.

[FantasiaWHT]

I'm with you OP. The levelling/earning money is the best part of a good RPG. IMO, if you can, coincidentally, earn enough exp to be strong enough to beat the next boss and enough money to buy all the equipment you need just by walking from required-point-A to required-point-B, you might as well not even bother having levels and money. The extra effort it takes to be strong & rich enough is what makes it for me.

Take Chrono Cross. I absolutely hated that game. I thought it was a complete travesty because it destroyed the fun of leveling up.

[Ed Oscuro]

Lately my gaming has taken me far away from grinding (more towards "your every move counts" gaming), but it does provide some low stress entertainment, right, so it can't be all bad. Anybody who insists on calling it inferior has an axe to grind ;P

[Damaramu]

Yup. I love leveling up my characters. There's something relaxing about it.

[heybtbm]

IMO, level grinding is one of the main draws of a good RPG. There's something about gaining experience and increasing statistics that just sync's with my brain. I love it.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm not a big fan of grinding simply because I find it to be a waste of time. In fact, I find BioWare's growth system to be nearly flawless. But if there is a game that allows for absurd leveling there must be balance. Games need to have respect for the player's time and what that means is a player should be able to play through the game and not be forced to take time to power level just to be able to beat a boss. Basically, the game shouldn't force the player to grind.

[Ed Oscuro]

Yup. I love leveling up my characters. There's something relaxing about it.
That's what I was looking for.

Some people underestimate the potential of games to be relaxing...

Of course, I'd rather be relaxing in a game like Myst Online: Uru, without any need for levelling.

If you're relaxing with an RPG, any tranquil feelings usually are shattered when you go to the big boss fight, heh.

In my view, there's probably a big and mostly untapped market for pure adventure/exploration/"relaxing" games.

[strassy]

yeah, you're right...repetitive and mindless battles are WAAAAY more fun that progressing in the game and seeing it's storyline.

a little bit of leveling is to be expected, but to have to sit around for a couple hours killing goblins just so you become powerful enough to advance sounds like a game with a poor difficulty curve.

[badinsults]

When I was younger, I spent countless hours grinding. However now, I feel it is a bit of a chore, and I tend to lose interest in a game. For instance in Dragon Quest Monster: Joker, in order to get a set of monsters that have a chance of beating the game, you need to do some grinding so that when you merge monsters, they have some good stats. And don't get me started on Final Fantasy III, where unless you grind to a high level, it almost takes pure luck to pass the game (as two well timed hits by the final few bosses can take out your healer, and it is near impossible to recover from that).

[Jorpho]

No matter how you break it down, levelling up is what bad CGEs are about.

Fixed.

If there is no reward for going through the same random battles over and over and over again, there isn't really much point.

It took Contact (DS) to drive that point home for me. I think of it as a good game to have in prison when you have nothing but endless amounts of time to slowly kill. Watching the Cooking animation alone over and over again might be enough to drive someone to madness.

[James8BitStar]

And don't get me started on Final Fantasy III, where unless you grind to a high level, it almost takes pure luck to pass the game (as two well timed hits by the final few bosses can take out your healer, and it is near impossible to recover from that).

Ya see, I LIKE stuff like that, because the goal of a CGE is to make you feel like you're living an epic adventure. And if you could just paddywhack every shmuck who raised his finger, its not epic. It's like the Shinra dudes in FF7--"Wait, my three guys are hacking this entire corperation to bits. WHAT is so dangerous about them again?"

the "epicness" is reinforced because levelling has precedent in other forms of art and literature--most mythological heroes did a lot of training before they set out to kick ass. Batman and Zorro for example. Or what about Musashi (a real person)? And what was the entire plot of the Karate Kid and Rocky? So I guess IMO the occassional "training session" makes me feel more like I'm living an epic story because I'm relating it to these people.

Also, that's the double-edged sword of the CGE genre: If a game is challenging, the players interpret it as "you need to level more[1]," but if the game is designed so that you don't need to level that much, players say its too easy or not as satisfying.

[1] Usually I find its more fun to try different strategies instead of just levelling up.

There's another trick too, to make levelling more "fun." Simply press on to the next dungeon or whatever, and retreat when your MP/restorative items get low, repeat as needed trying your best to explore and complete the place. This way even though you're technically grinding it FEELS like you're making progress.

[NE146]

What this always brings to mind is my first console RPG, SMS Phantasy Star and the experience with that.

Unlike a lot of RPG's, when you start out the lead character can barely beat the weakest enemies. Two battles in a row would almost always mean death, and you would literally have to retreat after every single battle to heal and replenish hit points.

I dunno but that rocked :p It made getting more powerful even more rewarding which I guess is the whole point... :D

[badinsults]

Ya see, I LIKE stuff like that, because the goal of a CGE is to make you feel like you're living an epic adventure. And if you could just paddywhack every shmuck who raised his finger, its not epic. It's like the Shinra dudes in FF7--"Wait, my three guys are hacking this entire corperation to bits. WHAT is so dangerous about them again?"

the "epicness" is reinforced because levelling has precedent in other forms of art and literature--most mythological heroes did a lot of training before they set out to kick ass. Batman and Zorro for example. Or what about Musashi (a real person)? And what was the entire plot of the Karate Kid and Rocky? So I guess IMO the occassional "training session" makes me feel more like I'm living an epic story because I'm relating it to these people.

Also, that's the double-edged sword of the CGE genre: If a game is challenging, the players interpret it as "you need to level more[1]," but if the game is designed so that you don't need to level that much, players say its too easy or not as satisfying.

[1] Usually I find its more fun to try different strategies instead of just levelling up.

There's another trick too, to make levelling more "fun." Simply press on to the next dungeon or whatever, and retreat when your MP/restorative items get low, repeat as needed trying your best to explore and complete the place. This way even though you're technically grinding it FEELS like you're making progress.

The thing is, that in FF3, I have got to the final boss twice without issues. But then the final boss kills off my healer with a couple of well place shots, and I cannot recover, even if I have the rest of the party using Phoenix Downs and Elixers. At that point, you realize you need to have another 1000 or so HP to ensure this would happen, and I can't be bothered. I mean, getting to the boss at the level I am at (around 50-53) is pretty easy, why should the final boss be such that you need to be at another 10 levels higher than the other enemies in the area?

[Jimid2]

And don't get me started on Final Fantasy III, where unless you grind to a high level, it almost takes pure luck to pass the game (as two well timed hits by the final few bosses can take out your healer, and it is near impossible to recover from that).
That's one of the things I loved about FFIII - that old school feel where you could get your ass handed to you in a dungeon, but you knew exactly what to do about it! I went up and down the Crystal Tower three or four times just leveling before facing the final few bosses when I played the DS version a few months back, and I enjoyed the challenge immensely... There's something cathartic in wandering the halls, knocking the spit outta this or that monster, avoiding the boss that kicked your butt a couple hours before just long enough for one more level-up!

[Trumpman]

Ya see, I LIKE stuff like that, because the goal of a CGE is to make you feel like you're living an epic adventure. And if you could just paddywhack every shmuck who raised his finger, its not epic. It's like the Shinra dudes in FF7--"Wait, my three guys are hacking this entire corperation to bits. WHAT is so dangerous about them again?"

the "epicness" is reinforced because levelling has precedent in other forms of art and literature--most mythological heroes did a lot of training before they set out to kick ass. Batman and Zorro for example. Or what about Musashi (a real person)? And what was the entire plot of the Karate Kid and Rocky? So I guess IMO the occassional "training session" makes me feel more like I'm living an epic story because I'm relating it to these people.

Also, that's the double-edged sword of the CGE genre: If a game is challenging, the players interpret it as "you need to level more[1]," but if the game is designed so that you don't need to level that much, players say its too easy or not as satisfying.

[1] Usually I find its more fun to try different strategies instead of just levelling up.

There's another trick too, to make levelling more "fun." Simply press on to the next dungeon or whatever, and retreat when your MP/restorative items get low, repeat as needed trying your best to explore and complete the place. This way even though you're technically grinding it FEELS like you're making progress.

I don't know - I feel like when I'm level grinding that I'm wasting time. Maybe that's why I've never been able to get into Final Fantasy games. You guys say that it's relaxing - for me I just get pissed that I have to fight another stupid random battle against another stupid generic monster. That's why I like Oblivion so much - you can see what you are facing. I much prefer American RPG's - in fact, besides Paper Mario and Pokemon I have yet to find a JRPG that I like.

[boatofcar]

The only RPGs I play are the ones that make you grind. If there's no grinding, why not just watch a movie? You get the same amount of interactivity.

[FantasiaWHT]

I'll say it another way:

If the trip through the required dungeon gives you exactly enough gold & exp to buy everything you need & be strong enough for the next battle, what's the point of even having battles? At that point I honestly would rather just watch all the cutscenes and have the game be just a movie.

For those of you bashing all the excess fighting, what if the battles aren't dull repetitions (I'm sorry, I think Oblivion has just as many "dull repetitions" of fights as any JRPG) but fights where the possibility of death is real with every fight?

[Jorpho]

the "epicness" is reinforced because levelling has precedent in other forms of art and literature--most mythological heroes did a lot of training before they set out to kick ass. Batman and Zorro for example. Or what about Musashi (a real person)? And what was the entire plot of the Karate Kid and Rocky?

All those movies only featured ten-minute training montages. If the movie took six hours or something to show the protagonist going through the same training exercises over and over and over again, no one would watch!


For those of you bashing all the excess fighting, what if the battles aren't dull repetitions (I'm sorry, I think Oblivion has just as many "dull repetitions" of fights as any JRPG) but fights where the possibility of death is real with every fight?

Sounds like the SaGa/Final Fantasy Legend games.

[TonyTheTiger]

The only RPGs I play are the ones that make you grind. If there's no grinding, why not just watch a movie? You get the same amount of interactivity.

Tell that to Mass Effect. I find that mission based growth (even where no actual fighting is involved, just problem solving) allows the freedom to build your characters as much or little as you want since you don't have to actually do the missions if you don't want to, but also makes things more interesting because it's not "Enter battle, fight monsters, rinse, repeat." There's just as much interactivity. It's just coupled with the plot instead of removed from it.


NOTE: I'm sticking to my own pet term for RPGs, the "Character Growth Epic." Let's hope it catches on!

I realize what you're aiming at but I think that your CGE term is actually just a way of putting a positive spin on something that's actually just a result of poor game balance where a game puts the player in a situation where he or she has no choice but to spend a half hour or more fighting random battles before entering each dungeon in order to be prepared to fight in that dungeon.

Think of a fighting game with horrible character balance. Most people would say that's not a good thing. But imagine if someone said "Well, I call those games Uphill Strategic Fighting Games because it's fun trying to win tournaments with the gimped fighters." Regardless of whether or not it's fun...it's probably not the way the game was necessarily intended to be designed.

Even games that are known for grinding like Disgaea aren't really the problem because the grind is actually not required to complete the game. The real problem is when, because of the way the numbers are curved, you exit a dungeon at level 10 but the dungeon right after requires you to be at least level 15. Then you exit that dungeon at level 20 but the next one requires you to be at least level 30. So in between every plot point, you have this down time where you're not really doing anything productive.

[James8BitStar]

I don't know - I feel like when I'm level grinding that I'm wasting time.

<snip>

in fact, besides Paper Mario and Pokemon I have yet to find a JRPG that I like.

That's kind of paradoxial: you dislike levelling but you like Pokemon?

But then my tastes have weird contradictions too so I won't make an issue of it.


The only RPGs I play are the ones that make you grind. If there's no grinding, why not just watch a movie? You get the same amount of interactivity.

Depends on the CGE. Around the time of the PS1 era I started to get sick of them because they were becoming more movie than game, and I never beat FFX for that very reason. But a lot of ones before that (and some of the better ones from that same era, such as King's Field) have a lot of interaction outside of just battling.


I realize what you're aiming at but I think that your CGE term is actually just a way of putting a positive spin on something that's actually just a result of poor game balance

Actually I was originally gonna go for the term "Statistics and Exploration Game," but decided that sounded too, well, mechanical, and chose CGE instead. Both terms come from the idea that the central component of any RPG is the statistical growth and development of in-game characters. It's not an attempt to justify anything (though I can see why it would look that way).

[RPG_Fanatic]

Yup. I love leveling up my characters. There's something relaxing about it.


I'm a "Level Up Whore" when it comes to RPG's. I just love doing it, when a strategy guide or someone online says you should be at level 10 to beat the next boss I'll level up 5 or 10 more levels to just kick the shit out of that boss. :devilish:

[TonyTheTiger]

Then you must loathe games that scale up bosses based on your level. LOL

[BHvrd]

They need to make a Gears of War rpg.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Then you must loathe games that scale up bosses based on your level. LOL

That's why i don't like Lunar SSC for the PSone (I love the story) I level up a lot and then you fight a boss and they are the same level as you.

[Trumpman]

I like Pokemon rather than other RPG's because most areas you can choose whether to engage in battles - and battling trainers is more interactive than generic baddies. It's not like FF's, where if you leave the town you're fair game.

[dgdgagdae]

So, what do some of you think of Diablo, where the grind IS the game? To me, it's the classic "one more level" game, and it's hella addictive.

[j_factor]

I prefer RPGs where you don't have to spend time grinding, but only if you're good. Like, to beat the boss, you either have to grind, or be smart enough to have the right equipment/spells/abilities and use them right in the battle. Final Fantasy Legend II was a great example of this. The first time I played it, I had to spend a lot of time grinding to beat the bosses. The most recent time I played it, I spent almost zero time grinding, because I knew how to work the battle system, what abilities to obtain, who to give the right equipment to, etc. This is possible because there's a lot of variation in the items and abilities available in the game. When an RPG has it so all you can do is beat the boss in the dungeon to go to the next town where they sell slightly better versions of all the equipment you bought in the last town, and each of your characters is restricted to one specific type of weapon, a helmet, and a particular type of armor... the game has to either be very easy, or fall back on grinding. While I can still enjoy an RPG with a simplistic battle system and level grinding, I don't enjoy them as much.

[p_b]

The thing is, that in FF3, I have got to the final boss twice without issues. But then the final boss kills off my healer with a couple of well place shots, and I cannot recover, even if I have the rest of the party using Phoenix Downs and Elixers. At that point, you realize you need to have another 1000 or so HP to ensure this would happen, and I can't be bothered. I mean, getting to the boss at the level I am at (around 50-53) is pretty easy, why should the final boss be such that you need to be at another 10 levels higher than the other enemies in the area?

This! It happens ever so often, and it's about the most frustrating thing an RPG can trhow at me! Obviously, the final boss should be harder than a random monster, but sometimes it's simply ridiculous. I always think of the designers sitting around a table going "Oh, the potential player might kill the boss after 40 hours...let's make the game longer and level up the final boss, MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA".

[Nodtveidt]

That's why i don't like Lunar SSC for the PSone (I love the story) I level up a lot and then you fight a boss and they are the same level as you.
I SO agree with this. Level-scaling in an RPG completely destroys the feeling of power you get in normal RPGs where you can power up and walk all over their asses. It's closer to real life, I think...when you go to the gym to work out, you get stronger and healthier...do the slugs who don't work out get stronger and healthier? Of course not! But if games like Lunar SSS reflected real life, you're working out for nothing...you will never improve because everyone around you becomes stronger along with you. You never gain the advantage. With that in mind...I've played through Lunar SSS a grand total of once...and Lunar TSS dozens of times...I'm actually in the middle of a game right now, just starting Grimzol's Cave actually...the most annoying part of the game.:shameful::whip:

[Ed Oscuro]

So, what do some of you think of Diablo, where the grind IS the game? To me, it's the classic "one more level" game, and it's hella addictive.
Diablo II is all about finding that small item or gem to socket and give yourself a boost against one monster or another.

[James8BitStar]

re: Diablo
I only played it once and briefly. No opinion at this time.

re: Level-scaling
I never played Lunar: SSSC but I did play FF8 and the early Elder Scrolls games and yeah, Level-scaling when done wrong can be one of the stupidest ideas in the world. If you're going to have a game where the Slime is always just as powerful as the hero you might as well just take out levelling.

There are some ways to do scaling right though. Some of the early Ultimas and the NES (not PC) version of Might and Magic: Secret of the Inner Sanctum for example. In those games monsters would start to attack in bigger groups, and in the former more powerful monsters would start to show up on the overworld. But there was nothing rediculus, no orcs who could kill a level 50 character or red dragons showing up on the first dungeon level.

[Jorpho]

In FF8 you can spend an eternity drawing spells over and over again from monsters and fighting over and over to get particular items you need. That's what I call grinding.

[Cornelius]

One thing on this issue I think a lot of people tend to forget is that without having played a particular classic RPG before, and with no guide, by the time you figure out what to do next, or how to get to the next town, you've usually leveled up enough so that you don't have to grind. I guess when exploring new areas of a game with new, harder monsters, the 'Role-playing' part kicks in for me and it just makes sense that I'll be beaten back a few times until I figure how to deal with those monsters. Sometimes it is a matter of actually figuring out the right equipment, spells, etc, to use, and sometimes it is more imagining that your character is doing that more automatically, as reflected in higher levels.

It is only really grinding if you know what you have to do, but can't. Seems like everyone uses a guide these days, though, so for most people it is grinding.

I will give an exception to some of the early RPGs, where to step out of the first town at level one is practically instant death. To me that seems unnecessary.

[heybtbm]

One thing on this issue I think a lot of people tend to forget is that without having played a particular classic RPG before, and with no guide, by the time you figure out what to do next, or how to get to the next town, you've usually leveled up enough so that you don't have to grind.

That's a really good point. It rings true with most of the old school RPG's I've played.

[FantasiaWHT]

That's a fantastic point. I always used to play through Phantasy Star II with a guide and I'd have to stop and grind to buy equipment at each new town and had to do the same for the game's three real bosses (although if you can beat DF you can beat MB, no questions). I tried it without a guide last year and, although it took me probably three times as long to beat in the end, I never had to level up or save for equipment.

[kainemaxwell]

I just want to say more RPGs (I defy your attempt to recatagorize a genre! :P) need Yangus's "whistle" command from Dragon Quest 8. Why waste time running in circles when you can summon a "random" battle at will. Makes the whole leveling process progress fluidly.

Agreed. There was also that flute item in DW3 that made you encounter a fight at every step when you had it with someone in your party.

I don't mind grinding, it is pretty relaxing at times now that i think about it. Never had issues with FF3/6 though. ^^

[James8BitStar]

I don't mind grinding, it is pretty relaxing at times now that i think about it. Never had issues with FF3/6 though. ^^

I think the people here who mentioned "FF3" were talking about the Famicom one, the one with the Onionkids and the class system, not FF6 with the Espers and Kefka.

Responding to other posts: yeah the part about guides is a good point. Grinding used to be acceptable in the old days because you really weren't--all the levelling was a by-product of figuring out what to do next (which in itself was fun and helped the whole "epic quest" aspect). Today everyone just goes to GameFAQs, then they wonder why they're not enjoying the games. Bah. If I ran the country, GameFAQs would be outlawed.

[Iron Draggon]

CGE's... I love it... and I love leveling up too, but I hate it most when every other step you take generates a random encounter... yeah, leveling up is what it's all about, but I prefer to do it at a leisurely pace, so I can relax and enjoy it, instead of feeling like I'm being forced to do it... although inevitably I am being forced to do it, no matter how leisurely it is, I still don't like to feel like that's all I'm doing... I wanna enjoy some exploration, and maybe even a little bit of puzzle solving too, not just endlessly fight every single step of the way... it becomes way too tedious then, and I'd rather do something else...

[dgdgagdae]

I SO agree with this. Level-scaling in an RPG completely destroys the feeling of power you get in normal RPGs where you can power up and walk all over their asses. It's closer to real life, I think...when you go to the gym to work out, you get stronger and healthier...do the slugs who don't work out get stronger and healthier? Of course not! But if games like Lunar SSS reflected real life, you're working out for nothing...you will never improve because everyone around you becomes stronger along with you. You never gain the advantage. With that in mind...I've played through Lunar SSS a grand total of once...and Lunar TSS dozens of times...I'm actually in the middle of a game right now, just starting Grimzol's Cave actually...the most annoying part of the game.:shameful::whip:

Well, ok. But we don't really have a good idea of what the skeletons and green slimes are actually doing during their down time. Maybe they're fighting each other and getting stronger, too. They're getting that gold they drop from SOMEwhere.

[James8BitStar]

Well, ok. But we don't really have a good idea of what the skeletons and green slimes are actually doing during their down time. Maybe they're fighting each other and getting stronger, too. They're getting that gold they drop from SOMEwhere.

Honestly, some things just don't need to be explained.

After all these are often the same games that allow characters to carry millions of gold coins, even though in real life that would be too heavy even for He-Man to lift.

Gary Gygax actually made a point about this back when writing D&D, pointing out that some of his rules were blatantly unrealistic, but needed to be done in order to not hamper the game.

[p_b]

They're getting that gold they drop from SOMEwhere.

We always assumed that they get paid by someone for hanging around in the woods/landscape. If they manage to kill the party, they'll probably have tons of gold which is then given to that "someone"...So it just might work out, hehe....

[TonyTheTiger]

What I think is more annoying than grinding are time sucking fetch quests.

"I would take you across to the next continent but my ship's sail was stolen. Go find the monster responsible and retrieve it for me."

"I would take you to see the king but I lost my royal crest. Go into the monster infested cave to the south and get it for me."

It's like the developers kept thinking "Hmm...the game's still too short. How can we extend it?" or "Hmm...the world map seems kind of barren. We need some more dungeons to explore and simple ways to incorporate them into the plot."

[Jasoco]

I just want to say more RPGs (I defy your attempt to recatagorize a genre! :P) need Yangus's "whistle" command from Dragon Quest 8. Why waste time running in circles when you can summon a "random" battle at will. Makes the whole leveling process progress fluidly.

I'll drink to that.

I just wish I could assign Whistle to a button press.

[Fuyukaze]

In some games, leveling up isnt so bad. In others, it's a total pain in the a$#. 7th Saga for the SNES was the worst though as it required you to Lvl Up your charcters with the right amount of points gained or else as every single boss in the game gained levels right along with you. Too slow? They also got key items before you then. For about a month I was keeping records of my levels gained. I gave up after coming to the conclusion that one had less then a 10% chance of getting the max number of points gain per level. Fun game but I can only handle it so long.

[Jorpho]

Well, there are other RPGs (FF7 and Tales of Phantasia immediately come to mind) where there are items that can be used to increase the encounter rate to crazy levels for as long as you want. That's got to be almost as good.

[WanganRunner]

I'm playing FFIII right now and I <3 it. The character development is fun, it's about as good as a grindfest gets.

I wish there were more secret spots with high level enemies to level in, but I still enjoy it.

For what it's worth, I also play for 100% completion in every RPG I touch. Every item, maxed stats, maxed levels, etc. Thus, I obviously don't mind a little grind.

[gewky]

anyone who has played end game world of warcraft will agree that grinding on there is ridiculous. i was in the top raiding guild on my server pre-tbc and if we were not raiding we were grinding for items that would help in the raid. just for anyone who played i was on dentarg in expletus ( we cleared 3 wings in naxx ). in pre-tbc there was also a lot of rep grinding for certain items which was also very repetitive and tedious. as far as rpgs i feel like leveling is a part of the game in itself and without social interaction you are quite free to go at your own pace so it's fine...