Psycho Fox superior to Super Mario Bros? :)

[JamieH]

Hi all,

First let me apologize if this has been raised before - I did use the search.

Just browsed another thread in which the merits of Alex Kidd, as is common, were used to defend the Master System against other machines' platformers.

I was curious as to why most people either only mention in passing, or don't mention at all, Psycho Fox on the Master System?

Having borrowed and played this solidly for a few weeks when I was young (along with the rather odd Time Soldiers) I have to say this is a better overall game than Sonic the Hedgehog on the Master System.

Strangely enough I find it an easier task to compare it with Super Mario Bros on the NES (and demonstrate the ways I find it to be better) than to Sonic.

I thought I'd address some of the negatives about the game and make some comparisons. I'd be interested to hear views on this.
********

Super Mario Bros needs no introduction, suffice to say when an argument is being made for which machine produced the best platform game, a certain sequel to the original usually ends it in one fell swoop. Fine, I'll concede for argument's sake that the Super Mario Brothers franchise wins as best platformer on an 8bit console, but if it had ended with the first sequel then this would be up for debate.




http://www.vgmuseum.com/pics3/Psycho%20Fox.gif


A common complaint (at least it was with some mags and critics) is that Psycho Fox is too easy. I think it's safe to say that the first 1-3 levels (or first world/map/zone) are generally fairly easy (Mega Man... I know) with most games in the genre. I don't think that Psycho Fox is any easier that Mario, if anything it's immediately hard to pick up due to the fact that the character you start as is not the fastest or best at jumping. Those who have played it recently should be able to vouch for the fact that traversing single block jumps can actually be a bit frustrating due to the fact that Fox is slow to build speed.

http://www.playright.dk/screens/psychofox_sms_02.gif

http://www.curtsheller.com/images_common/NES_Super_Mario_Bros.png

In all of about 5 minutes (possibly more if you’re not familiar with the genre) you can get a fairly good idea of the physics in Super Mario Bros, though the strange "floating" effect you sometimes suffer when your jump is off always comes at inconvenient times :)

This is simply a comparison of the characters (Psycho Fox has four, reminiscent of Super Mario Bros 2), the actual level design is far more complex in any given level of Psycho Fox. The structure and layout are actually similar to Super Mario Bros 3 in that they allow you to ascend fairly high at times, are multi- layered and have a mixture of invisible elements/secrets scattered throughout. Unlike Super Mario Bros 3, scrolling back is not possible.

Many of us have viewed players sprinting from one end of a level to the other (and this is not restricted to the first world), stopping for nothing and managing to get to the end without losing a life in Super Mario Brothers. I doubt, given the fact that latter levels require certain tasks to be carried out before continuing (breaking bricks with Hippo) that this would even be possible in Psycho Fox.

http://www.planetemu.net/php/articles/files/Image/zapier/psy/Psycho%20Fox%203.jpg

Boss battles vary only in platform layout in Super Mario Brothers; Psycho Fox bosses are more akin to the Robotnik Battles in Sonic on the Master System. No two bosses are alike and latter ones can certainly provide a challenge.

http://www.playright.dk/screens/psychofox_sms_03.gif

http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Super_Mario_Brothers_NES_ScreenShot2.jpg

As a result of the levels being more complicated, more interesting and harder, this naturally makes them more enjoyable. As mentioned, there are many secrets and they do provide a lot of replay value (I was never too concerned with missing a level in Super Mario Bros- with Super Mario Bros 3 however, it's much more fun to explore and examine each and every one as opposed to just skipping half of them). This applies to Psycho Fox too.

The other aspects I find Psycho Fox to be better in are easier to make a case for. The graphics are obviously better; this is true of the vast majority of Master System and NES games. Vivid colours, big sprites, varied enemies and not limited to one area of the screen (flying/jumping/springing is possible to reach higher platforms).

I am aware that this could be misconstrued as saying platform negotiation does not happen in Mario, as it obviously does -

http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Super_Mario_Bros._NES_ScreenShot4.jpg

But this is very linear, single tier stuff and there's little sense of exploration.

http://www.emucamp.com/reviews/sms/psycho6.gif

http://www.emucamp.com/reviews/sms/psycho8.gif

I understand that this may seem like a biased post, bear in mind I'm trying to make a case that this relatively unknown game is actually better than the one that made the biggest videogame franchise of all time. There are plenty of people that have and will have defended the Super Mario series, and I hold them dear as well, but as most people are aware - Sega were doing great platformers long before Sonic came along. I know Super Mario Bros has a couple of years on Psycho Fox though so it's not fair to compare graphics and sound.

Anyway, wasn't exactly "in-depth" just a few things that I always thought were great about this game. Cheers.

[digitalpress]

*ducks for cover*

(yet loves post) :)

[rkotm]

edit:nm.i'll try it when i can.

[TheRedEye]

Interesting post, but you more or less admit that Super Mario Bros. 3 is a superior game, yet fail to mention that it also came out before Psycho Fox. Psycho Fox is a fairly average platform game by today's standards, and while it has more depth than the original Super Mario Bros., it also has the advantage of four years, an eternity in game development advances. To put that into perspective, there were only three years in-between the original Grand Theft Auto and Grand Theft Auto III.

No offense, but this all seems apples and oranges to me. You have proven that a game has more depth and mechanics than a game that came out four years before it. What's your point? I've played both Psycho Fox and Super Mario Bros., and at the end of the day, Mario's the one I'm significantly more likely to play again. I'm sure most people without some strange agenda to prove the legitimacy of a failed console would probably agree.

[OldSchoolGamer]

I was a big fan of Psycho fox, I felt it was the hidden gem nobody knew or talked about but I cannot say it was better than Mario Bros............

[ssjlance]

I played Psycho Fox and never much cared for it. The control seemed stiff.

[Dr. Dib]

Thanks for the information, and people answered some of my questions in later post (my main question being when it was released). Now, I've never played Psycho Fox or even heard of it which is probably due to me not having a Master System.

Anyway, to answer your question, there is a very simple reason why Psycho Fox is not usually mentioned, no nostalgia.

The Master System got the back seat everywhere besides Europe, so it is no wonder Super Mario Bros. is mentioned a lot. People grew up with the game and remember it fondly. With Psycho Fox that is not the case, although their possibly are people who did play the game as a child. It probably doesn't help that Sonic became SEGA's platforming mascot after Alex Kidd either.

If we are lucky this game could be remembered via the VC.

[ShinobiMan]

Cool post. Psycho Fox is an excellent game. If you want to play an excellent game on the Sega Genesis that copied the Psycho Fox engine (same developers) check out Decap Attack.

http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Decap_Attack_GEN_ScreenShot1.jpg http://www.emunova.net/img/tests/1594.jpg

I always thought Decap Attack was better than Psycho Fox, so that must mean it's better than Super Mario Bros!

[JamieH]

Thanks for the replies; I'll address a few things -

RedEye you're absolutely right, Mario does have some time on Psycho Fox, though I think the GTA comparison is slightly unfair as The Mark III wasn’t exactly the technological jump from the NES that the PlayStation 2 was from the PlayStation.

The main reason for the post was not to compare an old game with a very old game and prove it was better - you could do that with any number of games. I've seen so many argue that Super Mario Bros was the best 8bit platformer outright, so I thought I'd mention mine.

Super Mario Bros 3 is a better game than Psycho Fox, I was just trying to understand why the same argument with the original Mario seems to be almost immune from debate for a lot of people.

Ultimately Dr. Dib you are correct - nostalgia. I suppose it was the difference between the Master System and the NES - most of the US probably didn't even get nostalgic about SEGA until the Genesis!

You're right about Decap Attack ShinobiMan, though games mags at the time were so vague about the connection (some didn't even mention it) I had no idea and it just passed me by. I only realized when I saw a screenshot in SEGA Power that showed the same springs you used to launch yourself.

And if you're wondering what Psycho Fox may have looked on the NES:

http://bit16.narod.ru/nes/scrins/k/kid_kool.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d3/Kidkool_Title.gif

[MacNes]

I appreciate your passion man - you obviously dig that game and that is cool. I'll try it out later but I get the feeling it won't connect with me, probably because its an average game and I'm not nostalgic about it.

But thats what I love about my collection, when I get to see other people become nostalgic about some completely random game. Someone once came over and saw my collection and demanded to play street fighter 2010, he proceeded to beat the game in front of me and show me a lot about the game I probably never would have digested since I didn't have that connection to it. All in all, that game is pretty bad in my opinion but it was good fun seeing someone enjoy the hell out of it.

Thats classic gaming for me - childhood memories.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

As far as SMS games go, I LOVE Psycho Fox.

And in the echelon of 8-bit (or any era) 2D platformers go, it's fun, well designed, nice looking, challenging, and overall memorable, however, IMO, I don't think it's a superior game than any of the 8-bit Super Mario games ... not Super Mario Brothers 1, 2 JAP, 2 US, or 3.

BUT, if you think it is - more power to you and don't let anybody tell you that you can't think that!

[boatofcar]

But thats what I love about my collection, when I get to see other people become nostalgic about some completely random game. Someone once came over and saw my collection and demanded to play street fighter 2010, he proceeded to beat the game in front of me and show me a lot about the game I probably never would have digested since I didn't have that connection to it.

That rules.

[Wraith Storm]

Psycho Fox was a fun game, though I never got to play it for more than a few hours.

Decap Attack rocks!!! I remember getting it from my brother for christmas and then years later him telling me the only reason that he got it is because it was marked down to 9.99. lol!

Guess i'm lucky it turned out to be a really fun game :)

[blue lander]

Has anybody played the Japanese version of Decap Attack? Magic Turban something something. People say it's better than Decap Attack (easier to control, better graphics, better level layouts), which would make it the best of the whole Kid Kool/Psycho Fox/Decap Attack trilogy.

[Push Upstairs]

The difference I saw between "Decap Attack" and Magical Whatever-it-is-called is that decap has that "horror" theme and that in the original Japanese game it is one hit deaths.

I prefer "Decap Attack" myself.

On to the thread topic.

I don't care much for the stiff controls of SMB. SMB3 being its sequel (obviously) has better control.

[bangtango]

I don't care much for the stiff controls of SMB. SMB3 being its sequel (obviously) has better control.

Yes it does, Raccoon Mario controls like a dream.

Of course this is all in hindsight......

Simply imagine if the original Super Mario Bros. had the same smooth control as SMB3 and the ability to scroll backwards in a level.


I've seen so many argue that Super Mario Bros was the best 8bit platformer outright, so I thought I'd mention mine.

The original Super Mario Bros?

For reasons such as those posted above by both myself and Push Upstairs, I've never heard anybody say that the first Super Mario Bros. was the best of the NES Mario games. When people discuss the best Mario game on the NES, they always say 3.

The control is better, you can scroll both backwards and upwards, you pick your levels from a world map and you've got better power-ups.

You've said you think Mario 3 is the better game between SMB1, SMB3 and Psycho Fox but again, I don't know of anyone who says SMB1 is better than SMB3. Not even web sites or magazines who run "Top 100 Games of All Time" countdowns will say that :)

Actually, I bet I have Psycho Fox on my SMS emulator somewhere. Because of your thread, I'll be giving it a try soon. Never played it before. So your thread has served its purpose.

[ooXxXoo]

While my family and I were living in Brazil back in the late 80's, Everything was Psyco Fox, 8-bit Sonic and Alex Kidd.....So I heard did Europe too....Great games indeed!.....I got into the Nintendo scene years later,they definately did a smart move by strongly focusing into the Japanese and American market....I guess everything depends in the more popular and common things available to you when growing up.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

For reasons such as those posted above by both myself and Push Upstairs, I've never heard anybody say that the first Super Mario Bros. was the best of the NES Mario games. When people discuss the best Mario game on the NES, they always say 3.

The control is better, you can scroll both backwards and upwards, you pick your levels from a world map and you've got better power-ups.

You've said you think Mario 3 is the better game between SMB1, SMB3 and Psycho Fox but again, I don't know of anyone who says SMB1 is better than SMB3. Not even web sites or magazines who run "Top 100 Games of All Time" countdowns will say that :)
The original SMB is better than Super Mario 3, in my opinion. I would not say that the control is better in SMB3. It is more fluid and complex, but that doesn't necessarily make it better. The control in the original SMB is very restrained, but I love that. The limited nature of the control means that you can very easily internalize all the physics and focus more specifically on playing the game. The same argument applies to the powerups in SMB3. Sure, the tanooki suit or the sock are fun, but they just complicate matters. Super Mario Bros. 1 is simple, direct and to the point. It's the best platforming game ever, in my opinion.

That would include Psyco Fox as well. I like Psyco Fox a lot, but I'd take SMB1 any day. The better comparison would be U.S. SMB2, that's a much more appropriate match up and I'd say the Psycho Fox certainly does come out on top in that one. A few people in this thread have suggested that Psycho Fox is only an "average" platformer, but that's definitely not the case, Psycho Fox is totally a top tier platformer. Whether it's compared to other SMS platformers or NES platformers, it would definitely beat out 95% of them. Like JamieH pointed out, the level design in Psycho Fox is particularly good.

Psycho Fox was released in the U.S. in 1989, but from what I understand, it had been developed as much as two years earlier and was even released in Europe earlier as well. That's no surprise since we all know that the SMS was totally mismanaged in the U.S., especially prior to 1989.


...word is bondage...

[Rob2600]

The original SMB is better than Super Mario 3, in my opinion. I would not say that the control is better in SMB3. It is more fluid and complex, but that doesn't necessarily make it better. The control in the original SMB is very restrained, but I love that. The limited nature of the control means that you can very easily internalize all the physics and focus more specifically on playing the game. The same argument applies to the powerups in SMB3. Sure, the tanooki suit or the sock are fun, but they just complicate matters. Super Mario Bros. 1 is simple, direct and to the point. It's the best platforming game ever, in my opinion.

I completely agree. I prefer Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2 (U.S.), and Super Mario World. Super Mario 3 is very good, but it was way too long and difficult to beat in one sitting. If Nintendo had included a save feature like in Super Mario World, I might have enjoyed it more.

[Push Upstairs]

I always found SMB3's length to add to its "epic" feel. I wish some things would have been done in 3 that were in World (save game, return to levels if you want), but other than that I don't have any complaints.

"World" plays fine, but I've never been able to see it as anything more than an inferior (gameplay-wise) copy of SMB3.

[Wraith Storm]

"World" plays fine, but I've never been able to see it as anything more than an inferior (gameplay-wise) copy of SMB3.

My thoughts exactly.

And what was Nintendo thinking??? The "Cape" was quite underwhelming compared to the "Racoon Suit" in part 3.

[guitargary75]

Psycho Fox is a great game. But, SMB kills it in almost every way. If not for the music alone.

[bangtango]

My thoughts exactly.

And what was Nintendo thinking??? The "Cape" was quite underwhelming compared to the "Racoon Suit" in part 3.

Not to mention it was more difficult to control. Trying to fly with it was a headache.

The original SMB did have the best music, though. I always thought the simple look of the underground levels (1-2) was awesome. I wish they'd used a simple style like that again, in later games, with the dark blues and the fairly limited background. Then there were the night levels, particularly 6-1 and 6-2, which had a great atmosphere with the black background.

Lastly, there was a greater feeling of being underwater during the SMB water levels than any of the later 8-bit (or 16-bit) games. Just a different aura, with the greens and blues which were a realistic color scheme and the Bloopers (?) which looked like a realistic undersea creature. Plus it made for more of a challenge where you weren't able to hit any bricks or collect power-ups while under the sea.

[Push Upstairs]

And what was Nintendo thinking??? The "Cape" was quite underwhelming compared to the "Racoon Suit" in part 3.

I've never got the hang of using the cape. I have to agree with bangotango
about it being hard to control.

I Also take offense to the "back to basics" power ups. I liked being able to collect power-ups and I liked having a choice when it came to what I could use and on what level. Simply saying "hey, you can carry and extra feather/mushroom/fireflower with you into the level" just isn't the same. I like that you can switch power-ups in level, but having only three choices really blows.

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

Not to mention it was more difficult to control. Trying to fly with it was a headache.
The advantage of having the cape be skill-based rather than just run-and-push-a-button like the raccoon suit was that they were able to remove the restriction on how long you could fly. Someone who was good at using the cape (I got pretty good at it when I was playing SMW a lot) could fly indefinitely, which was pretty cool. Also, a sense of accomplishment is a nice thing in itself.

I also think Super Mario World has much better level design than Super Mario Bros. 3. In fact, I'd say SMW has the best level design of any Mario game including Yoshi's Island and New Super Mario Bros. (which is somewhat disappointing in terms of level design despite being a great game in my opinion). Generally speaking, Mario games don't really have impressive level design for some reason, though, which is why I prefer playing hacks based on the original games' engines. SMW hacks with excellent level design like The Castle or Mario's Keytastrophe really put the original to shame.


...word is bondage...