Nintendos Dirty Little Secret

[deejay726]

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/91615

very interesting article

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Wait wait ... it's a SECRET that the Wii catalog is full of low-rated shovelware junk??

[Oobgarm]

Yeah, I thought it was kinda obivious, even to the average untrained consumer.

[Xian042]

by the time a source like yahoo figures something out about the game industy its usually old hat to those that are keeping track

[TheDomesticInstitution]

I read this 2 or 3 days ago when it was one of Yahoo's featured headlines... and I immediately thought of all discussions ad nauseam here about this same issue. So thanks for posting something that's almost sure to start a pointless argument, by a blogger whose op-ed is no more important or valid than any of ours.

[NE146]

Wii pwnz da n00bz

[Buyatari]

The Wii is a $250 bowling machine.

[Snapple]

The Wii is a $250 bowling machine.

You're a $250 bowling machine.

Oh yeah, I went there.

[Captain Wrong]

Man, is this the internet meme of the month? I swear, in the last 30 days, I've seen this at least 20+ places. And yeah, I think a simply walkthrough at a Gamestop would pretty much have confirmed this.

[MrSparkle]

hmm this was the case with.... oh wait most systems ever released. NES has TONS of crap games, Atari 2600... Well i dont even need to go there. PSX probably about half of the games are just absolute garbage. Even your beloved ps2 is sporting a library of crap games and bad movie based titles. In this day and age its a consumers fault for getting crappy games when they dont research them first. The reason the wii has the most crap on it is because its selling the best making it the most lucrative platform to develop for (whether your software is good or not).

[Garry Silljo]

You're a $250 bowling machine.

Oh yeah, I went there.

OOOOH, BURN!!!

[Bojay1997]

hmm this was the case with.... oh wait most systems ever released. NES has TONS of crap games, Atari 2600... Well i dont even need to go there. PSX probably about half of the games are just absolute garbage. Even your beloved ps2 is sporting a library of crap games and bad movie based titles. In this day and age its a consumers fault for getting crappy games when they dont research them first. The reason the wii has the most crap on it is because its selling the best making it the most lucrative platform to develop for (whether your software is good or not).

Well, also Nintendo has no standards for who they will let develop for the machine and no standards for what third parties can release. That's the difference between the Wii and the other consoles, including the PS2. Even the crappiest game on the PS2 is miles better than a lot of the Wii shovelware which in some cases includes buggy conversions of Flash PC games and Playstation One style racing and platform games. I know Nintendo got burned by the lack of third party support in the N64 and GC days, but this isn't the way to make up for it.

[Push Upstairs]

Are they implying that "Petz Catz 2" isn't the single greatest game ever made?

[Nikademus1969]

Well, also Nintendo has no standards for who they will let develop for the machine and no standards for what third parties can release. That's the difference between the Wii and the other consoles, including the PS2. Even the crappiest game on the PS2 is miles better than a lot of the Wii shovelware which in some cases includes buggy conversions of Flash PC games and Playstation One style racing and platform games. I know Nintendo got burned by the lack of third party support in the N64 and GC days, but this isn't the way to make up for it.


Maybe it's time to bring back the Nintendo Seal Of Quality?

[DKTheArcadeRat]

You're a $250 bowling machine.

Oh yeah, I went there.

Your Mom is a $250 bowling machine.

Thats the obvious place to go after "You're a $250 bowling machine"

[Buns34]

Super Mario Galaxy was a Masterpiece! One of the greatest games ever created. But if it were not for the awesome Virtual Console, i would hardly ever play my Wii. Mario Kart is great as well, but come on Nintendo!

[ice1605]

Your Mom is a $250 bowling machine.

Thats the obvious place to go after "You're a $250 bowling machine"

Ah, you beat me to it. Your face is a $250 bowling machine. (Not the same :( )

[s1lence]

Your Mom is a $250 bowling machine.

Thats the obvious place to go after "You're a $250 bowling machine"

Best Come Backs EVAR!!!!!!

[YoshiM]

Your Mom is a $250 bowling machine.

Thats the obvious place to go after "You're a $250 bowling machine"

Followed by "Oh yeah, well I bowled your Mom last night..."

Yes..eh..maybe.

Anyway, what's interesting with these "[System X] has crap games....but [circa 1970's/80's/90's system] had lots of crap too" threads is that the sheer amount of crap games is probably horribly exaggerated. Yes these systems have their fair share of true junk but it seems as though the "average stuff" gets lumped into the "crap" pile. Personally back in the day when I rented a lot of NES and Genesis games I really didn't run into many games that I would classify as "crap" but many of the titles were average and good for a single go-through. It's easy to remember the peaks but not the valleys.

The Wii is in an interesting predicament not just because of its huge install base but because of its unique controller. Think back to when Playstation 2 was at the head of the class of its generation-did the media come down on Sony because of all the ports, movie titles and other wannabe games? Not much, at least that I can recall. The Wii's controller is in the spotlight and people want to see what can be done with it and thus far not many can really deliver beyond shoddy ports with motion control tacked on. I can't think of another console that had this much scrutiny placed upon it.

Then again, a fleeting failure of anything that's at the top is big news anyway. Plus it's turkey and fanboi season, so why not stir the pot with a "Nintendoz is teh suxxors with krapp gamez" news bit.

[p_b]

can i haz $250 bowling machine?

[heybtbm]

Every system has tons of crap games. It happens every generation. Big deal. Just buy the good ones and stop crying.

[Gapporin]

Best Come Backs EVAR!!!!!!

Nah, I've heard better comebacks from a mailbox.

[kainemaxwell]

You're a $250 bowling machine.

Oh yeah, I went there.

and I went here.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/kainemaxwell/motivator6998602.jpg

[skaar]

I haven't turned my Wii on in months.

Hur hur.

[Gentlegamer]

I haven't turned my Wii on in months.

Hur hur.Ur m0m turnd 0n mah Wii.

[megamaniaman]

I think the Wii is starting to turn a corner on quality of games. At first many third party companies put their second or third tier teams on the job. But due to the huge success of the Wii many third party companies are starting to use their good programmers for the job.

[kainemaxwell]

I haven't turned my Wii on in months.
Hur hur.

Sounds like a personal problem.

[Push Upstairs]

Maybe it's time to bring back the Nintendo Seal Of Quality?

That seal did not guarantee that the game inside was "quality".

"Total Recall" had the seal of quality and it was excrement wrapped in plastic.

[swlovinist]

The Wii, like a bunch of systems before it, has a wide range of quality. It also has some great games mixed in with some budget crap. I have said this before, there will always be good games with bad. Buy the good games, avoid the bad.

[j_factor]

One man's trash is another man's treasure. As with other systems previously, I have been finding that not all of the Wii shovelware is really that bad. I picked up Octomania the other day on a whim. I'm sure a lot of people consider it part of the "Wii shovelware problem", but I think it's fun. Likewise, I have some games in my PS2/GC/Xbox/DC/PSX/Saturn collections that many would dismiss, but I have enjoyed. I mean sure, there are some games that no one could possibly enjoy, such as Kidz Sports International Soccer, but every system has those games. It seems that people are more keenly aware of their existence on Wii for whatever reason. But I don't think there's actually more of them than there was on PSX or PS2 or whatever. For every Kidz Sports game of today, there's an Army Men game of yesterday. For every Monster Trux Arenas, there's an L.A. Rush.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Haven't we already done this? Yes, I believe so. And, really nothing has changed since the last time this topic was kicked around. Or since the 70's for that matter.

Sometimes reviews just miss the mark, lay the blame on personal taste. Take Counter Force... it's near universally panned but, I tried, liked it and am now mad I didn't pick it up when it was $15 at TRU. Now I can't find it without resorting to the internets...

[VGfan]

edit.

[GarrettCRW]

Haven't we already done this? Yes, I believe so. And, really nothing has changed since the last time this topic was kicked around. Or since the 70's for that matter.

Sometimes reviews just miss the mark, lay the blame on personal taste. Take Counter Force... it's near universally panned but, I tried, liked it and am now mad I didn't pick it up when it was $15 at TRU. Now I can't find it without resorting to the internets...

Furthermore, some games fly under the radar, and aren't reviewed by as many people. If there's bitching to be done, it shouldn't be laid at Nintendo's feet, or even the shovelware makers (most of these companies are either small or just underfed arms of some corporate behemoth), but on the majors who haven't really devoted resources to the Wii.

[esquire]

Haven't we already done this? Yes, I believe so. And, really nothing has changed since the last time this topic was kicked around.

Not entirely true. Now there are even more piles of crap games, kiddie games, PS and GC ports and other shovelware for the Wii than the last time.

[Emuaust]

Ur m0m turnd 0n mah Wii.


Or at least something that came out the same hole....


Yeah I went there

[alexkidd2000]

So who has the most "Wii Crust" on their unused machines?

[Rob2600]

Not entirely true. Now there are even more piles of crap games, kiddie games, PS and GC ports and other shovelware for the Wii than the last time.

There are even more highly-rated games for the Wii since last time, too. It evens out.

[Famidrive-16]

Are they implying that "Petz Catz 2" isn't the single greatest game ever made?

man, these n00bs obviously haven't played ninjabread man, so great!!!1

[DeputyMoniker]

The Nintendo Wii remains the hottest selling console on the market, having shipped over 24 million units since its launch in November 2006. That's nearly double the PS3 and 5 million more than the Xbox 360, though the Xbox has been on the market for twice as long.

But behind the success of the Wii lies a dirty secret, says GameFunk: That very few quality games are being made for the console. In fact, if you look at the aggregate reviews, most of the games suck. Sure, Wii has some standout titles (Super Mario Galaxy is a classic, one of my favorite games in recent years), but most of the great games have come from Nintendo itself, not from third-party developers.

GameFunk's chart (scroll down a bit) is telling: According to GameRankings' reviews (which are drawn from major reviewing outlets), 26% of titles for the Xbox 360 were ranked as good (8 out of 10 or higher), and 33% of titles for the PS3 were ranked as good. On the Wii, just 11% got a good rating, measuring just 20 games total, four of which were ports of ancient PS2 or GameCube games.

The numbers hold up just as well at Metacritic. Visit the Wii page and you'll see a sea of yellow (mediocre) and red (bad) games in the "upcoming and recent releases" section on the left side of the page. As I write this there are only eight titles in the green (75 out of 100 points) or above. The 360 has 18 "good" picks to choose from.

What's going on here? For some reason, the creators of quick-buck shovelware titles have focused on the Wii. GameFunk notes that the "for all ages" marketing is what primarily predisposes developers to target the Wii, but I think there's somewhat less to it than that: The Wii is simply becoming a victim of its own success. The Wii is a phenomenon that now dominates the market. Why develop for the PS3 when you instantly attract twice the audience with a Wii game? The fact that Wii games take a fraction of the resources to develop (since they require only basic graphics work and gameplay is often simplistic) seals the deal.

Will Nintendo start to crack down on junk games and start enforcing quality control? Right now, Nintendo is relishing its position at the top of the charts, a place it hasn't been in over a decade. It's easy to say that responsibility lies with Nintendo to police the games on its console, but, really, if people are willing to buy a Hannah Montana game, how can Nintendo legitimately say no?

LINK: Wii Exposed: The Secret that Nintendo Tries to Ignore (UPDATE: As of Sunday night, the site is down due to the flood of traffic... try again on Monday morning.)

There.

[Icarus Moonsight]

But, but... it's all still the same. Nothing new. Honestly, I believe that some people have worse memory recall than goldfish do. Anyone here should already know the drill; dig up the gems, sidestep the poo. Again, no change.

Ok esquire, I admit, there is one slight difference. Sony domination is primarily because of awesome third party games where Nintendo domination is primarily because of awesome first party games. That is a difference but, not a change. Until recent properties like GoW, Sly and Ico/SotC Sony was a prime peddler of shovelware. Speaking of bad memories -- Enter Sony Imagesoft... bring a cyanide capsule, you'll need it.

Much ado about squat. ;)

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

i think a lot of you are missing the point (or obviously didn't read the article).

the author's argument was not that the wii had exclusivity on shovelware, but just that it has a higher incidence of it than other platforms, including platforms from previous generations like the ps2.

for comparison, here's the ps2 and wii data from metacritic:

ps2
good = 528 (34%)
average = 893 (58%)
poor = 130 (8%)
total = 1551

wii
good = 33 (17%)
average = 125 (63%)
poor = 40 (20%)
total = 198

[Greg2600]

Taking the previous generation, I would say that Gamecube trailed evenly the Xbox and PS2 in quality games and games people like/wanted (not the same as "quality"). This time around, Nintendo has obviously caught up, but still suffer from the lack of power in the Wii. However, the Wii is popular for its Wii Remote games, traditional Nintendo playability, and PRICE! Oh, and word of kiddie's mouths. Those darn runts go nuts over the craziest things after all! Look, the SEGA Genesis had a ridiculous number of bad games, as did the Playstation 1, maybe the most I've ever seen. Both dominated the market.

[Rob2600]

But, but... it's all still the same. Nothing new. Honestly, I believe that some people have worse memory recall than goldfish do. Anyone here should already know the drill; dig up the gems, sidestep the poo. Again, no change.

Ok esquire, I admit, there is one slight difference. Sony domination is primarily because of awesome third party games where Nintendo domination is primarily because of awesome first party games. That is a difference but, not a change. Until recent properties like GoW, Sly and Ico/SotC Sony was a prime peddler of shovelware. Speaking of bad memories -- Enter Sony Imagesoft... bring a cyanide capsule, you'll need it.

Much ado about squat. ;)

Bingo.


here's the ps2 and wii data from metacritic:

ps2
good = 528 (34%)
average = 893 (58%)
poor = 130 (8%)
total = 1551

wii
good = 33 (17%)
average = 125 (63%)
poor = 40 (20%)
total = 198

For a fair PS2 vs. Wii comparison, we'll have to wait until the Wii has been out for at least five years, not 18 months.

Also, are people counting average games as shovelware? When I think of shovelware, I think of 2.0 and 3.0, not 5.0 and 6.0.

[mailman187666]

Another thing you have to remember is this. Remember when we were all little kids and we saw a game based on a movie we really liked? we weren't aware that they just slapped a game together to make the movie liscense more money. So we'd go to our moms and say "hey, this looks cool mom" next thing you know, you have your total recall in the NES library. How many 11 year old girls are going to want to play things like the pet catz or Hannah Montana games, probably a lot of them because those are the kinds of games that they think would be fun for them. Since so many of those titles sell to the unsuspecting mothers of these 11 year olds, they will continue to release more of them because it makes them money.

The average age at DP is general mid 20s. We've all been gaming for a long time, so we have a pretty good idea of what our taste in games is, and a general idea of what kinds of games not to trust. Are we going to be buying Hannah Montana? not unless our daughters/neices/whatever have their hearts set on it for thier birthday or a holiday or if we are going for a 100% complete wii collection. We'll be buying the Mario Karts, Metroids, Zeldas ect. mainly because we know what we like, and we are of that age group where we know not to waste our time with kiddy games or other random budget titles. How many of us remember playing horrible games over and over again when they were really young but the fact of the matter was that we didn't care or realize it, we were just playing. I know I played Friday the 13th for the NES a lot just because I was young and thought it was cool anyways.

[YoshiM]

Also, are people counting average games as shovelware? When I think of shovelware, I think of 2.0 and 3.0, not 5.0 and 6.0.

The general Internet consensus is that generally anything below a "7" is considered "crap". Not sure of the mindset here at DP but that's the mindset at places like IGN or 1up.

[Buyatari]

The great thing about the wii is also the worst.

It is the controller.

Like the NES which had a light gun AND a controller the wii should come packaged with a stanard controller. The standard games from yesterday just were not made for this controller. A game created with this controller in mind can be fun but a "standard" game translated to accept this controller often just doesn't work.

However, I can not argue against it being a very popular $250 bowling machine!

[swlovinist]

The controller doesnt bother me. The Wii takes Gamecube controllers, and many first pary games utilize this feature, as well as the Wii store ones. I disagree that it is just a bowling machine, it is much more. I know that some people here will probably always dislike Nintendo and its direction it takes. I personally cannot think of another time(or game system) that I played video games with my wife as much. For that I am very happy with my Wii and the good games that I have played in it. As time goes on, I think that we will see other uses of the control scheme that make it a stand out system. For me personally, I am very happy with it.

[Rob2600]

I personally cannot think of another time(or game system) that I played video games with my wife as much. For that I am very happy with my Wii and the good games that I have played in it.

Yes, my girlfriend didn't care about video games until I got a Wii. Now, she plays Wii Sports, Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection, Link's Crossbow Training, Wii Play, Zack & Wiki, and Kororinpa Marble Mania all the time. Once I buy Mario Kart Wii, I'm sure we'll be playing that a lot, too.

She also likes Karaoke Revolution Presents: American Idol Encore and will probably want Wii Fit and Rock Band when they come out.

EDIT: I should also mention that her mother, sister, and aunt and uncle also bought Wii consoles and several games each...and they never cared about video games before, either.

[Gentlegamer]

How many of us remember playing horrible games over and over again when they were really young but the fact of the matter was that we didn't care or realize it, we were just playing. I know I played Friday the 13th for the NES a lot just because I was young and thought it was cool anyways.I finished Total Recall back in the day.

[DeputyMoniker]

Until recent properties like GoW, Sly and Ico/SotC Sony was a prime peddler of shovelware.

You're talking about a hardware company. Of course their games aren't very good. They're better suited to publishing and licensing...which they are very good at. Arguably the best.

[Rob2600]

You're talking about a hardware company. Of course their games aren't very good.

Icarus Moonsight was talking about Sony's games before the PlayStation existed: Last Action Hero, Hook, Cliffhanger, Bram Stoker's Dracula, etc.

[DeputyMoniker]

Icarus Moonsight was talking about Sony's games before the PlayStation existed: Last Action Hero, Hook, Cliffhanger, Bram Stoker's Dracula, etc.

TV's, CD players, tape players...that's the hardware I'm talking about. I guess that era you mention actually makes his point. A hardware company peddling crap software. Okay. I get it.

[incubus421]

Another thing you have to remember is this. Remember when we were all little kids and we saw a game based on a movie we really liked? we weren't aware that they just slapped a game together to make the movie liscense more money. So we'd go to our moms and say "hey, this looks cool mom" next thing you know, you have your total recall in the NES library. How many 11 year old girls are going to want to play things like the pet catz or Hannah Montana games, probably a lot of them because those are the kinds of games that they think would be fun for them. Since so many of those titles sell to the unsuspecting mothers of these 11 year olds, they will continue to release more of them because it makes them money.

The average age at DP is general mid 20s. We've all been gaming for a long time, so we have a pretty good idea of what our taste in games is, and a general idea of what kinds of games not to trust. Are we going to be buying Hannah Montana? not unless our daughters/neices/whatever have their hearts set on it for thier birthday or a holiday or if we are going for a 100% complete wii collection. We'll be buying the Mario Karts, Metroids, Zeldas ect. mainly because we know what we like, and we are of that age group where we know not to waste our time with kiddy games or other random budget titles. How many of us remember playing horrible games over and over again when they were really young but the fact of the matter was that we didn't care or realize it, we were just playing. I know I played Friday the 13th for the NES a lot just because I was young and thought it was cool anyways.

I am in 100% agreement with you mailman. I'd like to add a bit more to your post.

I too am upset with the low quality of games I see coming out more and more for the Wii...but at the same time I can understand it completely. Game consoles for the the past couple generations has been geared, I would say, mostly at 15-35 year olds. Even most of the games for 360 and PS3 today are aimed towards that age group.

What bastardly Nintendo has done has put all their efforts on attracting the "non-gamers" (7-12 years and 50+). Being that these are groups that are made up mostly of people who are uneducated and know little to even nothing about games, it takes very, very little to impress and entertain them.

So, Nintendo may as well release all the lame mini-game complilations and movie/tv show/cartoon games they can, because that is what their main age groups are buying up and loving. Companies and magazines dedicated to gaming will keep giving those types of games their 2 to 5 (out of 10) ratings and the people in these age groups will never see those reviews nor care that they even exist.

While it sucks for most of us fans of Nintendo out there...Nintendo knows exactly what they're doing, and has found a way to make just as much as they can on their new found audience...atleast for the time being.
So, as it has been said before, if you are a hardcore gamer and you follow the reviews and are looking for the good stuff...just make sure you ignore and pass on the heaps of "not so good stuff".

[j_factor]

For a fair PS2 vs. Wii comparison, we'll have to wait until the Wii has been out for at least five years, not 18 months.

Agreed. The PS2 really had mostly crappy games early on, and then got better.

Also, it's possible that reviewers don't inflate their scores as much as they did 5 years ago, or maybe they're just tougher on the Wii, or something. I mean, Evergrace (ps2) has a 59 on Metacritic. If that was a Wii game instead, there's no way it would have more than a 30.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

For a fair PS2 vs. Wii comparison, we'll have to wait until the Wii has been out for at least five years, not 18 months.

see the ps3 vs wii figures in the original article for a comparison of two consoles with equal time on the market.

same results.

not try to start a wii vs the world flamewar here, but just pointing out that the data from the article shows a definite trend vs other consoles and isn't to be dismissed offhand. what that data means is up for discussion.

[ShinobiMan]

Yeah, the only game I play on the Wii these days is Super Smash Bros. Brawl with my buddies. Ace game really. Only game worst the time of day if you ask me.

In fact, the only games I've ever played on the Wii were 1st party titles. Shame really.

[Buyatari]

The controller doesnt bother me. The Wii takes Gamecube controllers, and many first pary games utilize this feature, as well as the Wii store ones. I disagree that it is just a bowling machine, it is much more. I know that some people here will probably always dislike Nintendo and its direction it takes. I personally cannot think of another time(or game system) that I played video games with my wife as much. For that I am very happy with my Wii and the good games that I have played in it. As time goes on, I think that we will see other uses of the control scheme that make it a stand out system. For me personally, I am very happy with it.

I wouldn't say I dislike Nintendo but I haven't agreed with many of the choices they have made since the N64. Mostly the lack of 3rd party support and the hardware direction they went with. The Wii has both. I am sure this is seen by some as a "We will do what we want and don't need anyone" attitude. That doesn't bother me but I think they could do so much more.

The Wii does bring in a new audience and many of them are hooked by the bowling game. Some of them buy it JUST for that and never purchase anything else. These new customers do not have a gamecube controller and most publishers are leary of putting out software that can not be played day 1 without additional requirements. I do think it is a mistake to force 3rd party developers to adapt to this new controller scheme or take the risk of selling a game that can not be played without additional hardware. The end result will be poorly crafted software in many cases.

For the past 2 generations (n64,gamecube) I'd say Nintendo had the best ratio of crap to great games. This was the defense used by those defending the lack of games for those 2 systems. Now you still have the limited 3rd party support and you have games that are poorly designed for this system. Sure Nintendo can crank em out but it would be better with 3rd party support and the ability to play the "standard" games without buying a new controller.

[unwinddesign]

Agreed. The PS2 really had mostly crappy games early on, and then got better.

Also, it's possible that reviewers don't inflate their scores as much as they did 5 years ago, or maybe they're just tougher on the Wii, or something. I mean, Evergrace (ps2) has a 59 on Metacritic. If that was a Wii game instead, there's no way it would have more than a 30.

The difference is that Nintendo has already unleashed most of its main franchises early in the Wii's life cycle. The PS2 friggin' sucked before MGS2, GTA3 etc. came out. I should know -- I bought one at launch, and was playing Smuggler's Run (argghhh) for like a year.

Metroid, Smash Bros., Mario Party, Mario Kart, Zelda, Mario (Platformer), Big Brain Academy, Super Paper Mario, Mario Strikers, WarioWare, Fire Emblem -- these have already all seen the light of day on the Wii. As for third parties, you have No More Heroes and Zack and Wiki, which are the only real (quality) IP designed for the Wii. Maybe Boom Blox (arguably). RE4, Okami -- both ports. Bully -- also a port.

Each of those first party releases (Mario Party not included) saw but one or two iterations on the N64 and Gamecube. About the only franchises Nintendo hasn't covered are Mario Tennis and Mario Golf (both of which will probably be great, and work well with the Wii Remote). They've unleashed all their biggest guns early. 3rd Party support has, thus far, been very weak in terms of quality. Hopefully it will pick up, but there's not much in the pipeline to support that argument.

[Rob2600]

The difference is that Nintendo has already unleashed most of its main franchises early in the Wii's life cycle. ...

About the only franchises Nintendo hasn't covered are Mario Tennis and Mario Golf (both of which will probably be great, and work well with the Wii Remote). They've unleashed all their biggest guns early.

F-Zero, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Wave Race, Excitebike, and 1080 Snowboarding haven't been released yet.

Also, supposedly a Legend of Zelda sequel is in the works. And there are new Nintendo series like Wii Sports and Wii Fit.


3rd Party support has, thus far, been very weak in terms of quality.

Really? I think the third-party support has been good so far:

Boom Blox
Bully
Call of Duty 3
Castle of Shikigami III
Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 3
Elebits
Geometry Wars: Galaxies
The Godfather
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core
Guitar Hero III
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
Lego Star Wars
Madden NFL
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Medal of Honor Heroes 2
Mercury Meltdown Revolution
Metal Slug Anthology
MLB Power Pros
Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution
No More Heroes
Okami
Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008
Rayman Raving Rabbids
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Resident Evil 4
Rock Band
The Sims 2: Castaway
SSX Blur
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
Super Swing Golf
Tiger Woods PGA
Tomb Raider: Anniversary
Zack & Wiki
etc.

Not to mention games like Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games and Trauma Center, which were published by Nintendo, but developed by third-parties.

Some members here seem to forget that a bunch of great third-party games have been released for the Wii in addition to the many average and horrible ones.

[kedawa]

Many of those games are just quick ports.

I can't beleive how many Wii games I see in bargain bins. I've seen only first-gen 360 games and almost no PS3 games on clearance, but the Wii libarary is just a shitfest.

[Rob2600]

Many of those games are just quick ports.

So what? A good game is a good game, right?

How come to some people, games like Bully and The Godfather are awesome on the PlayStation 2, but are worthless on the Wii just because they're ports? That doesn't make any sense.

To people like me who don't own a PlayStation 2 or an Xbox 360, ports are a good thing.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

So what? A good game is a good game, right?

How come to some people, games like Bully and The Godfather are awesome on the PlayStation 2, but are worthless on the Wii just because they're ports? That doesn't make any sense.

To people like me who don't own a PlayStation 2 or an Xbox 360, ports are a good thing.

Being a multi-console, multi-handheld owner, I also have a difficult time understanding exactly what the case against well-made ports is. (With the Wii, the PSP and the PS2 clocking in with the most "ports" and/or games that were not developed with those systems' originally in mind.)

Yes, exclusives are nice and still a key factor in console longevity/supremacy, but in this day and age, the floodgates on multi-platform-releases (read - ports) are wide open and there are no signs of them ever being closed ... and as long as they're not crap, spread the love around via ports and let everybody enjoy the latest Need for Speed or Tony Hawk game no?

[Press_Start]

The Wii does bring in a new audience and many of them are hooked by the bowling game. Some of them buy it JUST for that and never purchase anything else. These new customers do not have a gamecube controller and most publishers are leary of putting out software that can not be played day 1 without additional requirements. I do think it is a mistake to force 3rd party developers to adapt to this new controller scheme or take the risk of selling a game that can not be played without additional hardware. The end result will be poorly crafted software in many cases.


The Wii technology is new for home consoles and will take time to adjust, that I'll give you. But the only thing that's forcing 3rd party developers to do is use their brains for once and stop relying on the old formula of military/FPS + generic "anti-hero", with the only inspiring thought that can come to mind is "is this the 99th or 100th game I played as a macho, gun-wielding, violent-prone, 5'o clock shadow <insert tough guy's name here so I won't look like a sissy in front of my friends while playing this>, 'cause I lost count."

Nintendo is raking in millions and there's plenty of room for more, all 3rd party developers have to do is use the ace that's been collecting dust for years, their IMAGINATION!

[j_factor]

The difference is that Nintendo has already unleashed most of its main franchises early in the Wii's life cycle. The PS2 friggin' sucked before MGS2, GTA3 etc. came out. I should know -- I bought one at launch, and was playing Smuggler's Run (argghhh) for like a year.

Metroid, Smash Bros., Mario Party, Mario Kart, Zelda, Mario (Platformer), Big Brain Academy, Super Paper Mario, Mario Strikers, WarioWare, Fire Emblem -- these have already all seen the light of day on the Wii. As for third parties, you have No More Heroes and Zack and Wiki, which are the only real (quality) IP designed for the Wii. Maybe Boom Blox (arguably). RE4, Okami -- both ports. Bully -- also a port.

Each of those first party releases (Mario Party not included) saw but one or two iterations on the N64 and Gamecube. About the only franchises Nintendo hasn't covered are Mario Tennis and Mario Golf (both of which will probably be great, and work well with the Wii Remote). They've unleashed all their biggest guns early. 3rd Party support has, thus far, been very weak in terms of quality. Hopefully it will pick up, but there's not much in the pipeline to support that argument.

Sure, Nintendo has most of their big franchises represented on the Wii pretty quickly. So what? Maybe that means some of their lesser franchises will see the return and attention they deserve. Maybe it means Nintendo will actually throw us a few original developments. Or maybe it means we'll have far too many Zeldas. Either way, I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of Nintendo's first-party franchises that you've listed, except Metroid (and I believe they've said Prime 3 will be the last Prime, and the last Metroid for a while), Paper Mario (which may very well be over with), and Wario Ware (ditto). I did enjoy Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy, but I don't like every Zelda or Mario game. I don't care for Smash Bros., Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario sports games, or Big Brain Academy one bit. I would be interested in a new Kirby, Pikmin, or Chibi-Robo (or EarthBound or StarTropics or Wario Land), but that's about the extent of my Nintendo fandom. In short, I am far from the biggest fan of Nintendo's games, although I don't dislike them either. The majority of my affection towards the Wii comes from its third-party software.

I stand by my assessment that the scores are lower because the games are being scored differently. Speaking of ports, DOA2 Hardcore has a 91 on Metacritic. A port of that quality on Wii would have no chance of scoring anywhere near that range.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Speaking of ports, DOA2 Hardcore has a 91 on Metacritic. A port of that quality on Wii would have no chance of scoring anywhere near that range.

I think it's fair to say that any game that's close to 10 years old and has had two semi-evolutionary sequels on different consoles runs the risk of being ranked differently, likely lower, if it's suddenly ported to a current gen console.

[Buyatari]

F-Zero, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Wave Race, Excitebike, and 1080 Snowboarding haven't been released yet.

Also, supposedly a Legend of Zelda sequel is in the works. And there are new Nintendo series like Wii Sports and Wii Fit.



Really? I think the third-party support has been good so far:

Boom Blox
Bully
Call of Duty 3
Castle of Shikigami III
Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 3
Elebits
Geometry Wars: Galaxies
The Godfather
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core
Guitar Hero III
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
Lego Star Wars
Madden NFL
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Medal of Honor Heroes 2
Mercury Meltdown Revolution
Metal Slug Anthology
MLB Power Pros
Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution
No More Heroes
Okami
Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008
Rayman Raving Rabbids
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Resident Evil 4
Rock Band
The Sims 2: Castaway
SSX Blur
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
Super Swing Golf
Tiger Woods PGA
Tomb Raider: Anniversary
Zack & Wiki
etc.

Not to mention games like Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games and Trauma Center, which were published by Nintendo, but developed by third-parties.

Some members here seem to forget that a bunch of great third-party games have been released for the Wii in addition to the many average and horrible ones.


Nothing wrong with a port when the systems use the same hardware.

How many of those games use the motion controller that creates for a better game? In the cases I have seen the ports over to Wii have been horrible because the original did not have the motion controller in mind when it was developed and really how could they?

[Buyatari]

I think it's fair to say that any game that's close to 10 years old and has had two semi-evolutionary sequels on different consoles runs the risk of being ranked differently, likely lower, if it's suddenly ported to a current gen console.

I disagree as the Resident Evil ports scored higher on the cube and even on the N64.

[j_factor]

I think it's fair to say that any game that's close to 10 years old and has had two semi-evolutionary sequels on different consoles runs the risk of being ranked differently, likely lower, if it's suddenly ported to a current gen console.

I wasn't talking about if that exact game were ported to Wii. I meant a port of similar quality in a similar situation as DOA2 Hardcore was. And I feel I should reiterate that a game of Evergrace's quality would never get anywhere near a 6/10 if it were on Wii.


How many of those games use the motion controller that creates for a better game? In the cases I have seen the ports over to Wii have been horrible because the original did not have the motion controller in mind when it was developed and really how could they?

It depends on the game, but I think Tomb Raider Anniversary is a good example of a port that's enhanced by the Wii controller. Also RE4 and Ghost Squad. You're right that a lot of Wii games have frivolous motion control aspects, but they're not all like that.

[mregashu]

This is a problem that will always be present for the system that has the most market share. The difference is for some reason it's being beaten to death on the Wii.

There are people out there who's entire PSX collection consisted of Simpson's Wrestling, Hooters Road Trip, Kurt Warner's Arena Football Unleashed, and Who Wants To Be a Millionaire. These types of people are, to put it delicately, misinformed. These same people are now playing a lot of Anubis II on their Wii.

It stinks that some people don't spend time figuring out what's good and bad in entertainment. In a perfect world, Norbit bombs, reality TV disappears, and the Backstreet Boys are waiting tables in Orlando. And, yes, no one buyz a game that spellz an animalz name with a z. But it's not a perfect world, so ignore the crap and play the good. There's plenty of it. There is no finite number of titles available so that when a crap game comes out a good one disappears; there is plenty of room for both.

I've never understood people griping about the dearth of good games on a system anyway. There are currently 33 games rated as good on the Wii on Metacritic. Most people won't buy anywhere near 33 games over the course of the Wii's lifetime. Even those who do can surely agree that if they never released another good game for the system (not bloody likely), 33 quality titles would be a lot of good times and worth the 249.99 the system was released for, right?

[kedawa]

maybe if you love every single genre of gaming

[Icarus Moonsight]

If you "love" a genre you give passes to and can enjoy the lesser quality titles in that genre. A quality title has to have near universal appeal correct?

I avoid RPG's and FPS these days and yet, I really enjoy Etrian Odyssey, the Metroid Primes and Portal just floored me with it's awesomeness. I fail to see where extreme genre appreciation relates to the quality of specific games.

[unwinddesign]

In response to Rob and jfactor, all that I was saying is that Nintendo already has a lot of their great stuff out. I don't see that much good stuff on the horizon. Is there anything of MGS4 caliber coming out for the Wii? No. People talk about all the great games the Wii has, but that's because Nintendo axed Gamecube support and started developing these games early on. There's not a ton of quality stuff in the pipeline. That's no secret at all.

As for the 3rd party situation, it sucks. Completely. Rob, most of the games you mentioned were either ports (of old games, no less), bad (Madden, Call of Duty), budget titles or better on other systems (GH3). The number of multi-platform games that are superior on the Wii is low. Very, very low. How many truly quality, deep games have been released by 3rd parties? The Wii has multiplayer "lite" games in spades, but no deep single player type of stuff coming from the third parties. All the simple 10 minute pick up and play games are great at first, but they've started to blur together at this point.

[Buyatari]

This is a problem that will always be present for the system that has the most market share. The difference is for some reason it's being beaten to death on the Wii.

There are people out there who's entire PSX collection consisted of Simpson's Wrestling, Hooters Road Trip, Kurt Warner's Arena Football Unleashed, and Who Wants To Be a Millionaire. These types of people are, to put it delicately, misinformed. These same people are now playing a lot of Anubis II on their Wii.

It stinks that some people don't spend time figuring out what's good and bad in entertainment. In a perfect world, Norbit bombs, reality TV disappears, and the Backstreet Boys are waiting tables in Orlando. And, yes, no one buyz a game that spellz an animalz name with a z. But it's not a perfect world, so ignore the crap and play the good. There's plenty of it. There is no finite number of titles available so that when a crap game comes out a good one disappears; there is plenty of room for both.

I've never understood people griping about the dearth of good games on a system anyway. There are currently 33 games rated as good on the Wii on Metacritic. Most people won't buy anywhere near 33 games over the course of the Wii's lifetime. Even those who do can surely agree that if they never released another good game for the system (not bloody likely), 33 quality titles would be a lot of good times and worth the 249.99 the system was released for, right?

You are a gamer and will play ANY type of game if you are willing to play any game labeled as "good" and most consumers do not. Some of the genres are well filled on the wii. Mostly by 1st party titles and its the same genres that were filled by 1st party titles on the last two systems. So if you like the N64 and the cube you might even see the wii as an improvement over the last two systems in these genres.

If you are a consumer who looks only for the other genres that were not covered well with 1st party titles on the N64 or the cube then you are going to think this system is worse as the limited 3rd party support on those genres is not good as the hardware ignores those genres with this new controller.

Nintendo is not being picked on just for being #1 try not to be so close minded. Wii is a great system that has done new things never done before. My biggest beef is the limitations that could have been so easy to fix and all they needed was an extra "normal" controller in the box to go along with everything.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I disagree as the Resident Evil ports scored higher on the cube and even on the N64.

I initally believed that response (no reason not to), and was only looking for the exact percentage of HOW MUCH higher the ports all scored over their original releases ...

but when I checked out the historical data on the overall average rankings I found that RE 1-3 scored generally higher for PS1 across the board than on Gamecube (and only point-six percent higher for the GC RE-Make) or N64 (in the case of RE2) acording to Gamerankings.com.

Were you citing one specific game rating outlet that scored them in the inverse?


I wasn't talking about if that exact game were ported to Wii. I meant a port of similar quality in a similar situation as DOA2 Hardcore was. And I feel I should reiterate that a game of Evergrace's quality would never get anywhere near a 6/10 if it were on Wii.

It depends on the game, but I think Tomb Raider Anniversary is a good example of a port that's enhanced by the Wii controller. Also RE4 and Ghost Squad. You're right that a lot of Wii games have frivolous motion control aspects, but they're not all like that.

I had a feeling you weren't specifically citing DOA, but I just couldn't help playing devil's advocate. ;)