Best Dungeons in Gaming History

[markeggertsen]

Hey all --

One of the best aspects of video games to me is atmosphere, both graphically and otherwise. With that in mind, I think many would agree that some of our best experiences in games involved dungeon-crawling, and I wanted to get feedback on what you think the best dungeones in gaming history are? I've heard the ice dungeon from Zelda: Phantom Hourglass tossed around as a great from time to time. I've even heard old-school hack and slash RPG players mention specific dungeons from Eye of the Beholder 1,2, or 3 mentioned. Who that has played any of the Dungeon Explorer games can forget some of those excellent dungeons? Ideally, these would be from RPG, action-RPG, hack and slash (Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder), or high RPG games, but any suggestions are welcome.

With that, I'd like to toss out the last, very loooong tower dungeon that took up the 2nd half of the original Y's (Ancient Y's Vanished). Epic dungeon with both inside and outside sections which had several challenging bosses and, of course, the final confrontation with Dark Fact.

[Steven]

This game gets hated on in general, but I enjoyed it and thought some of the dungeon/underground maps were fuggin' fun/awesome. Reminded me a bit of DOOM (in overhead hack n slash form, mind you) and that game would be BRANDISH on the SNES. There's a review on my site with plenty of pics for you to see.

Many folks were turned off by the admittedly disorienting "camera system" (though I adjusted to it after half an hour's play). Some of the later stages were really really cool. Unfortunately, I'm willing to bet most did not bother to stick with it that far to see what kind of game this really is.

[Viraneth]

Every dungeon in TES: Arena. Long, confusing, and creepy, even now, as there could be a strong enemy right infront of you but too far to see, all you'd be able to identify it by is it's noise making and possible "hitting-you-from-far-away-with-death" attacking.

The dungeon crawl before the fight in FFIII that lets you go to -spoiler- and you find out that the place you live in is really just -spoiler- in the -spoiler-.

:D Censored for those who never played the most frustrating FF ever.

[winona2k]

I thorougly enjoyed the first dungeon part of The Elder Scrolls: Arena. I never finished the game. Wish I hade the time to replay it.

[markeggertsen]

Never played any Elder Scrolls games, but, based on what I'm seeing here, it might be worth your finishing the game. Wow.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

the dungeon below the town of tristram (diablo) is still my favorite.

even though it's a randomized dungeon, the tension ramps up nicely and the atmosphere is perfect.

[Viraneth]

Dungeon Siege the original is always delicious.

[winona2k]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls:_Arena

"Arena is its tendency to be unforgiving towards newer players. It is easy to die in the starting dungeon, as powerful enemies can be encountered if the player lingers too long. However, this effect slowly withers away as the player becomes more powerful and more aware of the threats that loom everywhere. Even Ken Rolston, lead designer of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, says he started the game at least twenty times and only got out of the beginning dungeon once."

That would explain why I never made it out :)

[markeggertsen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls:_Arena

"Arena is its tendency to be unforgiving towards newer players. It is easy to die in the starting dungeon, as powerful enemies can be encountered if the player lingers too long. However, this effect slowly withers away as the player becomes more powerful and more aware of the threats that loom everywhere. Even Ken Rolston, lead designer of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, says he started the game at least twenty times and only got out of the beginning dungeon once."

That would explain why I never made it out :)

Wow. That's crazy. Makes we want to play it actually.

[Trebuken]

Bard's Tale 1-3, and the Gold Box AD&D games.

[Superman]

One of the few RPG's I've played is Phantasy Star for Sega Master System. There is just something about those dungeons.

[winona2k]

Bard's Tale 1-3, and the Gold Box AD&D games.

Ah yes, I knew Pool of radiance map by heart back then. I later played through the remake and it was nothing like the original. I finished it, but didnt like it much. Never played the bards tale except the remake and it was excellent.

[markeggertsen]

the dungeon below the town of tristram (diablo) is still my favorite.

even though it's a randomized dungeon, the tension ramps up nicely and the atmosphere is perfect.

Was this by chance one of the first dungeones that had the "butcher" in it as the boss?

If so, I totally agree. "Ahhh! Fresh meat!" Really had my skin crawling.

[markeggertsen]

Ah yes, I knew Pool of radiance map by heart back then. I later played through the remake and it was nothing like the original. I finished it, but didnt like it much. Never played the bards tale except the remake and it was excellent.

I have to give special mention to a game that was long forgotten on a number of systems, including my long-dored Amiga 500. It was called Black Crypt and while I can't remember a particular part or dungeon of the game, the enemies in said dungeons definitely made the game. Great game!!!

[Viraneth]

Wow. That's crazy. Makes we want to play it actually.

It is very difficult to find your way out. I've done it a few times, and there is a specific guide on how to do it, but it can be done. Also, if you put the wrong spell value in the exit door you die.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

Was this by chance one of the first dungeones that had the "butcher" in it as the boss?


i was referring to the entire dungeon. even though the levels were randomized, it still seemed as if they were designed to make you as a player go through the same emotions that your character was. by the end i was weary of the darkness and screams and fearful of what lay around the next corner, but i was determined to see it through.

[rbudrick]

Hydlide. Piss off. ;)

-Rob

[Cantaloup]

Since some of you are talking about Elder Scrolls: Arena, I thought I would mention that Bethesda offers it as a free, legal download if you want to play it:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/downloads_games.htm

It can be run under DOSBox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/).

[Soviet Conscript]

I have to give special mention to a game that was long forgotten on a number of systems, including my long-dored Amiga 500. It was called Black Crypt and while I can't remember a particular part or dungeon of the game, the enemies in said dungeons definitely made the game. Great game!!!

correct me if i'm wrong but i beleive Black Crypt was ONLY avalible on the Amiga

[Viraneth]

Since some of you are talking about Elder Scrolls: Arena, I thought I would mention that Bethesda offers it as a free, legal download if you want to play it:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/downloads_games.htm

It can be run under DOSBox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/).

For a few years now tbh. It runs terribly on XP and Vista, but it does run well on 98 and 2000.

[pseudonym]

I'm not sure about the best dungeon, but my most memorable is the Floating Castle from Final Fantasy.

*goes across bridge close to Tiamat*
*runs into Warmech*
*gets ass handed to him by constant Nuke spells*

That pissed me off the first time that happened when I was a kid.


Also, the Tristram dungeon is from Diablo 1? Isn't that the only dungeon in the game? I haven't played that game in forever... don't really regret it because of the hackers & lamers that appeared later on.

[Wraith Storm]

I'm not sure about the best dungeon, but my most memorable is The Sky Castle from Final Fantasy.

*goes across bridge close to Tiamat*
*runs into Warmech*
*gets ass handed to him by constant Nuke spells*

That pissed me off the first time that happened when I was a kid.

Yep!!! I know what you mean. The Ninteno Power Guide said that the chances of encountering the War Mech was like 1 in 60 if I remember correctly. So I pressed on with confidence and then ran into the dreaded War Mech, myself. I was handed the same fate as well. I curse the damn Nuke spell to this day... lol

[Wraith Storm]

Skies of Arcadia easily has the most creative, atmospheric and memorable dungeons that I have ever seen in a game.

All these years after beating it on my DC, I still can't forget the dungeon that was a city of ice hanging like icecicles from the celing of a cave. That game drew me into it's world like few games ever have.

A game like this, that re-invigorates my gaming spirit, only comes around once every 5 or 6 years. I'ts about time for another game to emerge and remind me why I play games.

[Viraneth]

And I will make it 8D

[cyberfluxor]

Was this by chance one of the first dungeones that had the "butcher" in it as the boss?

If so, I totally agree. "Ahhh! Fresh meat!" Really had my skin crawling.

Or you could have gone against King Leoric. So you get either a crown or butcher cleaver, and a mixture of a random encounter of a goat man in the tainted water supply. Yeah, Diablo is my bread and butter of the 90's and still prefer the Playstation version over the PC by just a little. The PS version had some bug fixes and more eyecandy but has some slow-down in multiplayer mode. Also the computer version has up to 4 players and every item in the game can be imported with trainers if you felt like it.

I like the dungeons in Black Thorne if that counts. And if it does then the first two Prince of Persia games have some cool crypts and whatnot going on. Oh, and let me throw in Descent as well, really great level execution/designs in the first and second, still haven't played the third installment.

[Trevelyan]

I've always loved Dungeoun Keeper (1 & 2) because you can build your own!

WoW is really what I am into at the moment.

[markeggertsen]

I don't make the rules here, but I totally think Blackthorne counts. It's definitely dungeon-filled. Excellent game, athough I never finished it. Diablo, of course, is seminal.

[winona2k]

Amusingly enough Ive been praising Daggerfall Arena to no end when it really was Elder Scrolls Battlespire I was thinking about :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uTafrh-ydUc&feature=related

[markeggertsen]

Amusingly enough Ive been praising Daggerfall Arena to no end when it really was Elder Scrolls Battlespire I was thinking about :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uTafrh-ydUc&feature=related

I've never seen the game in this video, but I never saw you mention Daggerfall. You weren't talking about Elder Scrolls the whole time?

[winona2k]

I get the titles mixed up. I think this one is called Elder Scrolls: Battlespire. Its an excellent title for its time. Still playable I think.

And no, I never played Daggerfall. My friend got a box of them sealed. I bought one for 8$. Pretty cheap for a PC game in 1999. Then my other friends borrowed it and played it a whole summer. I got bored watching and never tried it myself.

[markeggertsen]

Adding Eye of the Beholder I to the discussion, I want to sat that the first two dungeon maps were exceptional for their time. The use of the sloshing noises monsters made as they approached you kept you on guard and was very creepy for the time.

The dungeons of levels 3 and 4 were also memorable for the introduction of the very difficult spider enemies.

[FantasiaWHT]

Phantasy Star II. I love the dungeons in that game. INsanely convoluted - for every right way to go, there's probably 3-5 wrong ways to go. And the wrong ways? They're not usually dead ends, just twisted, convoluted spirals of HELL THAT WE ALL WANDER IN FOREVER!!!!....

Sorry... got carried away there.

My favorite is the one on Dezo where you have to fall over and over again.

[Viraneth]

I'd have to say Dark MEssiah M&M: Elements has some fantastically fun dungeon crawls.

[PresidentLeever]

Some dungeons I've enjoyed off the top of my head:

Dungeon Keeper :)

Catacombs - Diablo 1

Eagle Tower - Link's Awakening

King Nole's Palace - Landstalker

Tourian - Super Metroid

Gi Cave - FF7

Sierra Army Depot - Fallout 2

Cloakwood Mines - Baldurs Gate

[psychic1]

Really good list leever.

One game that springs to mind that hasn't been mentioned is Valkyrie Profile.

The dungeons were varied, atmospheric and the unique platform side-scrolling dungeon crawling was fresh and fun. The Seraphic Gate was particularly epic but all of the dungeons were memorable.

[markeggertsen]

Some dungeons I've enjoyed off the top of my head:

Dungeon Keeper :)

Catacombs - Diablo 1

Eagle Tower - Link's Awakening

King Nole's Palace - Landstalker

Tourian - Super Metroid

Gi Cave - FF7

Sierra Army Depot - Fallout 2

Cloakwood Mines - Baldurs Gate

Diablo's Catacombs are near legendary on this message board alone by this point.

Landstalker was a great game! Nole Palace was hard as hell, too.

Eagle Rock? Cool game but I can't yet remember the dungeon.

The Cave of Gi was very cool in FF7. I can't remember which village it stared in though . . . .

[markeggertsen]

Hydlide. Piss off. ;)

-Rob

Isn't Hydlide, like, one of the worst reviewed games ever? I know the NES version was supposed to be terrible, but it appears to have garnered some fans among MSX followers. Still . . . Hydlide? Is this guy serious?

What's with the attitude, dude?

[BydoEmpire]

How about the dungeons of Apshai - the room descriptions in the instruction book were certainly memorable. Creepy ant people, too!

Also, the amazing 3D dungeons of Phantasy Star - gorgeous and fiendish, too, especially that one with all the pits.

[rbudrick]

Isn't Hydlide, like, one of the worst reviewed games ever? I know the NES version was supposed to be terrible, but it appears to have garnered some fans among MSX followers. Still . . . Hydlide? Is this guy serious?

What's with the attitude, dude?


Just my brand of sarcasm, Mark. ;)

I actually like Hydlide....it's so low tech in the graphics and sound, but I guarantee if this came out on say, the Atari 2600 back in the day, it would have been considered one of the most fun, awesomely engaging games ever (even with worse graphics and sound). I firmly thought this game was a lot of fun, though relatively easy for an RPGish game. Seriously, once you start leveling up and getting somewhere, it's pure ghetto fun.

-Rob

[ErmangelnSeelen]

Yep!!! I know what you mean. The Ninteno Power Guide said that the chances of encountering the War Mech was like 1 in 60 if I remember correctly. So I pressed on with confidence and then ran into the dreaded War Mech, myself. I was handed the same fate as well. I curse the damn Nuke spell to this day... lol

O_o

I don't understand you guys... I was going through there, and accidentally ran into warmech, and I tossed his shit. Of course I had a full party of 30's, but I mean, this guy was EASY.


Ok, my vote goes to the first pendant dungeon in Zelda: A link to the past. Maybe it's because every tiem I go back and play it, the nostalgia doesn't really kick in until I walk in those doors, then all of a sudden it's a million memories

[Soviet Conscript]

Just my brand of sarcasm, Mark. ;)

I actually like Hydlide....it's so low tech in the graphics and sound, but I guarantee if this came out on say, the Atari 2600 back in the day, it would have been considered one of the most fun, awesomely engaging games ever (even with worse graphics and sound). I firmly thought this game was a lot of fun, though relatively easy for an RPGish game. Seriously, once you start leveling up and getting somewhere, it's pure ghetto fun.

-Rob

Hylide was one of if not my first RPG

it almost single handedly turned me off to the entire genre. then after voicing my dislike to my neighbor he proudly proclaimed that "let me try it, i love any game". it was back in my hands the next day proveing that indeed, he did not love any game.

coincidently i went back and beat Hydlide a year or so ago as my "100th RPG beaten" (yes, i keep track, even have a chart for overall total, how many i've beaten on a individual system and how many i beat in a given year). and i still disliked it though not as much as i used to.

[Viraneth]

Can all of Castlevania: Lamnent of Sorrow considered a dungeon? That's what it feels like. :3

[Mercapto]

I haven't played many games with Dungeons, so uhm, I'd go with Anarchy Online's TotTW.

[Viraneth]

AO classic never really worked on my pc. Oh well.

[jupitersj]

The many, many, many dungeons of

EverQuest - PC :bday:

[purenergy]

As mentioned in the first post,
Dungeon Explorer and Dungeon Master managed to use hours (days?) of time for me.
:)
Also,
The Apshai series was excellent (haven't played them for years!)
And, Solstice on the NES. Simple, but fun (and loose track of time so easily!)
:-D

[Wraith Storm]

And, Solstice on the NES. Simple, but fun (and loose track of time so easily!)
:-D

Too true! Solstice is a fantastic game. I still remember going through the castle, garden, and catacombs for the first time. I never knew what to expect in the next room. But now I know most of the game second nature and can navigate its corridors better than the ants that always seem to find my cats food bowl.

Another game that has some fantastic dungeons is Shining the Holy Ark on the Sega Saturn. This game was phenomenal for its time and still holds up well today. Some of it's dungeons were HUGE and had some very clever puzzles. Thank GOD for the auto mapping.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Phantasy Star's 3D dungeons floored me in my youth. They are very bland in retrospect but, at the time they were pure awesome and it was the first time the underworld of a game truly felt like it you were literally underground. First console RPG that I dedicated a tablet of graph paper too. :)

Diablo's randomness ensures that we all will be playing this game, intermittently, for a very long time. Yay for replay!

The 2d Metroids and the Metroidvania's for the discovery of secrets and finding of hidden things.

Zelda is in a league all on it's own.

Finally Neverwinter Nights for the DM client/editor. :D

[Nikademus1969]

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

Hehe...that count?

[Nebagram]

The Cave of Gi was very cool in FF7. I can't remember which village it stared in though . . . .

Cosmo Canyon iirc.

Discounting just about every Zelda dungeon ever from this argument, from recent games I'm kinda fond of the 'Mehrune's Razor' dungeon from Oblivion- simply because of the sheer size of it. Took me absolutely hours to crack that one.

[markeggertsen]

Ok. I just thought of a load more.

The Necrohol of Nabudis from Final Fantasy XII kicks ass.

The Necroplis from ahem . . . . . Quake I had "dark, moldy, decaying dungeon" written all over it. My favorite is still "The Crypt of Decay." Amazing map. I know it's not an RPG, but those maps are dungeons in every sense of the word and that one is AMAZING.

The Tower of the Gods from Windwaker is a dungeon remember being particularly cool, partly because of the dungeon itself, and partly because as I recall, you see the boss, Gohdan right as you enter. He is like a statue brought to life as you make your way through the dungeon.

Any Twilight Princess dungeon, but I especially liked the music is "The City in the Sky." Very cool level.

Also the coolest part of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was the Forest Temple dungeon in which you fight Phantom Ganon. That was like the coolest fairytale boss fight brought to life EVER.

That is all.

[markeggertsen]

Phantasy Star's 3D dungeons floored me in my youth. They are very bland in retrospect but, at the time they were pure awesome and it was the first time the underworld of a game truly felt like it you were literally underground. First console RPG that I dedicated a tablet of graph paper too. :)

Diablo's randomness ensures that we all will be playing this game, intermittently, for a very long time. Yay for replay!

The 2d Metroids and the Metroidvania's for the discovery of secrets and finding of hidden things.

Zelda is in a league all on it's own.

Finally Neverwinter Nights for the DM client/editor. :D

When you guys say "PHantasy Star's 3D dungeons," are you referencing PSO or did PHantasy Star have 3D dungeons in the Genesis versions?

Also, did you just use the term "Metroidvania?!" Hahahah! I thought I was the only one who used that!

[diskoboy]

Woah! Not one mention of Inty AD&D Cloudy Mountain? I know it's old, but it still kicked ass.

You're in the final mountain... Hearing that dragon growling nearby, knowing you only have something like 2 arrows left, and while searching for more, you run into a rat which manages to steal all the arrows you had left, then running into a demon, and having it chase you like a maniac through the maze, with no way of killing it???


And you people call yourselves gamers.... ;)

[markeggertsen]

Woah! Not one mention of Inty AD&D Cloudy Mountain? I know it's old, but it still kicked ass.

You're in the final mountain... Hearing that dragon growling nearby, knowing you only have something like 2 arrows left, and while searching for more, you run into a rat which manages to steal all the arrows you had left, then running into a demon, and having it chase you like a maniac through the maze, with no way of killing it???


And you people call yourselves gamers.... ;)

(Hanging my head in shame)

[Sothy]

The dungeons in "The Haunting" for Genesis were pretty cool. hated those arms that grabbed at you from the walls.

[Viraneth]

Metroidvania?

[Sudo]

Metroidvania?

Metroidvania is the term used to describe Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and the GBA/DS games that follow it, as they mix Metroid-style level exploration with Castlevania gameplay.

[LucidDefender]

Woah! Not one mention of Inty AD&D Cloudy Mountain? I know it's old, but it still kicked ass.

You're in the final mountain... Hearing that dragon growling nearby, knowing you only have something like 2 arrows left, and while searching for more, you run into a rat which manages to steal all the arrows you had left, then running into a demon, and having it chase you like a maniac through the maze, with no way of killing it???


And you people call yourselves gamers.... ;)

Props to you, except bats stole your arrows, if I recall. That game had atmosphere, considering the technical limitations of the platform.

I also loved AD&D Treasure of Tarmin and Tower of Doom. All phenomenal, and criminally under-rated titles.

[FantasiaWHT]

Shining in the Darkness. I prefer that dungeon to those in Phantasy Star by quite a bit.

[BydoEmpire]

When you guys say "PHantasy Star's 3D dungeons," are you referencing PSO or did PHantasy Star have 3D dungeons in the Genesis versions?The original Phantasy Star on the Master System had absolutely amazing 3D dungeons, which didn't reappear in the Genny games.

I should probably also mention Treasure of Tarmin, since it was so far ahead of its time.

[Lady Jaye]

I just got Dungeon Explorer for the DS (hey, it was a cheap title at $20 new, so even if it's nothing to write home about, as long as it's ok, I won't complain). I heard that the new Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles for DS has a good dungeon crawl -- is it so?

Oh, and no love for Dungeon Siege?

[AB Positive]

Shining in the Darkness is a favorite of mine... it took me forever to figure out the 'living door' puzzle in the first dungeon... and even longer to defeat it as a kid. But wow did I love the game - especially the sound! To this day one of my favorites. :)

I second Landstalker - another Genny classic.

And with all the diablo love, I'm surprised not so much for Diablo II - Act IV Hell was always a crazy fun time online, and when the expansion pack came out and the COW LEVELS? Ahhh... I almost want to load it up again and do some cow runs :P

[Haoie]

This is a good topic, I'm surprised I missed it.

Well I vote for Lufia 2's Ancient Dungeon.

100 levels of randomly generated madess.

[parker619]

Definately Phantasy star 2,, even the first dungeon you can get very easily mixed up,, i think the hardest one is the one on Dezo,, cant remember the name,, maybe naval or Ikuto.
Where you have to fall down lots and lots of pits to get a couple of nei items.. :O VERY HARD!

[Raedon]

The classics are the best!

Dragon's Lair - It had electric floors, killer dropping platforms, and a sewer ride!
Zork - XYZZY and all that
Bards Tale - more past the basement wine cellar then any other game in history!

[RegSNES]

The dungeon that holds the first pendant in Zelda: A Link to the Past has always been pretty special to me. Not only was it my first exposure to the Light World dungeon music, I thought the all the rolling balls were pretty cool and the dungeon itself has a magnificent design.

[sonoranreptile]

The many dungeons under Skara Brae in the Bard's Tale series, and I second Skies of Arcadia for the DC. Very well developed and beautiful places to explore......and die......

[gdement]

Ultima Underworld is the best dungeon I've ever seen.

My favorite dungeons in a 2D console game would be Legend of Zelda. The dungeon in Shining Darkness was also good but it got a little repetitive.

I didn't really notice it at the time, but I think Sega had a penchant for smooth scrolling 3D dungeons in the days when other companies generally weren't doing it. Of course you still had to walk on a grid, but they always made the effort to scroll smoothly: Phantasy Star, Sword of Vermilion, Shining Darkness. I can't think of any other applicable games. It was especially impressive in Phantasy Star. They never settled for those unanimated choppy steps like other developers would use.

[BydoEmpire]

Ultima Underworld is the best dungeon I've ever seen.Ah, great call. What an amazing game, and a fantastic dungeon.

[Raedon]

Ultima Underworld is the best dungeon I've ever seen.




If only I could get UU to work on a modern PC. Last time I tried was with win98 and the sound didn't work.

[gdement]

If only I could get UU to work on a modern PC. Last time I tried was with win98 and the sound didn't work.

You probably knew this was coming but... it'll run on DOSBox. Setting that program up can be confusing though.

But personally, when I'm in the mood to play an old DOS game, I like to set up a real machine for it.

[Raedon]

You probably knew this was coming but... it'll run on DOSBox. Setting that program up can be confusing though.

But personally, when I'm in the mood to play an old DOS game, I like to set up a real machine for it.

I know I'm just really lazy.:frustrated:

[MrSparkle]

final fantasy 2 (aka 4 in jpn) the final dungeon on the way to zeromus rocks. has a few side paths, a few truely killer enemies, and a DAMNED hard final boss if your not leveled up correctly for him (big bang for 9999 damage every few rounds!!!) plus the crystal tile scheme of the floor is really cool looking. other than this the first dwemer dungeon you have to explorer from a storyline perspective in TES: morrowind was awesome with its strange mechanical monsters, and art deco-ish dwarven design, not to mention its filled with strange contraptions that look way ahead of the time period the rest of the game takes place in, it makes you feel as if your exploring something that would advance the entire game world that your in. and finally the desert maze in magic of scheherazade (world 2) because who else in their right minds would think to put an invisible pit into the damned dungeon that you fall in and makes you rework your way all the way through the dungeon just to fall in it 20 more times!.

[AB Positive]

Oh... I forgot the best dungeon in all of gaming. Nethack. :D