Ebay, Paypal, and the middle finger

[carlcarlson]

Alright, this is a rant, and a long one at that, so if you don't want to read it then please click your browser "Back" button and carry on. This has been building for a few weeks now, and I've just got to let it loose. Sorry if this isn't anyone's cup of tea, but it will make me feel better.

So like I said, this all started a few weeks ago. I recently found out that my Jeep needed a ton of repairs that I really couldn't justify. Because of this I had to go on an emergency car hunt. I found one surprisingly easily, but I still had to get rid of my Jeep. Enter ebay and their 4-day $1 listing special for ebay motors. Normally it's $40 to list a vehicle, so this is obviously a nice little discount. Needless to say, I jumped on that, listing my vehicle on the second day of the promotion. Within an hour I had an offer for $2500, not bad considering I was just hoping to get $3000. I let it ride though because I was getting a bunch of watchers, many more than I normally get. By the end of the second day I had over twenty watchers and three offers, the highest of which was $2900. I was ecstatic, I was going to sell my Jeep and the vehicle buy/sell stress would be over.

Then I got this lovely email from ebay telling me that my listing had been canceled because of misleading information in regards to the vehicle title. Now my Jeep has a salvage title, and I was very clear in stating that fact in the listing. VERY clear. So I emailed ebay right away asking what was wrong. The next day (Monday) was the last day of the promotion, so I wanted to get my listing back up right away. By late afternoon Monday I hadn't heard anything back so I figured I would just relist and be extra extra clear this time about the title. I even put a bit in the listing asking that any ebay reps please email me if I had left anything out or misrepresented something. I felt pretty good this time around, until I noticed a couple hours later that the title field was blank. "OHHHH" I thought, "that's what the problem was". So I went to revise the listing, only to discover that I had in fact filled that field in. I changed it anyway and saved the revisions. Still blank. Did it again, still nothing. So I got on ebay's Live tech support to see what was going on. It turns out that ebay is trying out some new listing software that is buggy as hell. So the tech rep makes the change for me and assures me I'm good to go. FINALLY, and relief washes over me.

Until the next day, around noon, when I get the exact same email. $!$&*!$. So then I tried for two hours to get back on ebay Live, with no results. Finally that night I got through and was told that, yep, buggy software, yada yada, oops. This time the rep gave me a direct link to the old listing software, so now it should be fine. "Ok great", I said, "but the $1 listing promotion is over. I want to relist for a $1". Long pause from the rep. "The promotion ended yesterday." Oh wow, now that's news to me, he's really earning his pay here. "I understand that, but my listing was canceled twice through no fault of mine. I think I deserve to list for $1." This went on for about ten minutes. Then I was transferred to billing, where I got to have the whole argument again. I lost, ebay won. Imagine that.

Part 2. This one is minor, but it pisses me off. I just sold about 30 things on ebay. I was in my Paypal writing down addresses and see something I've never seen before. There is a HOLD on one of my payments because my reputation is in question. I'm sorry? I have 99% satisfaction and all of my stupid ratings are above 4.6. On top of that, I've just received about 20 other payments this week, and those were all fine. Now I've got this hold on a payment until I either provide tracking info or the buyer leaves feedback. If neither of those things happen I have to wait 21 days to get my money. Thanks Paypal, for rewarding me for my six years of faithful business.

Part 3. A game I sold last month never got to it's destination (or at least that's what I'm told). Luckily I kept the receipt from the post office. I'm good to go right? Wrong. After talking to the buyer for a few weeks, she goes behind my back and files with Paypal. Ok, I guess that's fine, I'll just explain that I have the receipt and we'll settle this with a partial refund or something. Whoops, she escalated it to a claim. Ok... that's not good, but I've still got the receipt. Wait, my only options are to prove I submitted a refund, provide tracking, or issue a full refund?! I don't have any tracking information, it was an $8 game (I know many of you will frown on this, but I sell a LOT of stuff and getting tracking on everything really adds up). So I immediately emailed Paypal to explain my situation. I never got a response. Two weeks went by and I got nothing. Finally I just submitted the receipt number as the tracking number and told my story through the resolution center, hoping somebody would actually read it. Another week and half went by and nothing happened. Wow, maybe that actually worked. So on the 3rd I remember the claim and decide to check and see what's going on. It turns out that the buyer never responded, and her deadline was the 3rd. Sweet, I'm going to win by default! Wrong. I woke up on the 4th with an email stating that they had decided in favor of the buyer, DESPITE the fact that she had never responded. Then tonight I get on and she's left me negative feedback. And because of ebay's genius new feedback system, I can't even leave her a neutral. So to summarize, I had a receipt, I refunded the purchase price and shipping, I lost the game, I lost the cost to ship it to her, and I got a negative feedback.

Ok, I'm done. The thing that really pisses me off about all of this is that ebay/paypal is really the only way I can collect how I want. There isn't any alternative, so I just have to put up with this BS.

[layzee]

Part 1: I don't know how true it is, but in general, if one of your listings get cancelled, then it is due to a report made by another eBay member, possibly a competitor. The worst thing about this is that while one of your listings get taken off for a relatively insignificant reason, the thousands of clearly illegal items (e.g. PSP memory sticks, bootleg carts/CDs) are allowed to remain on eBay. eBay, at the moment, are in fact being sued for this reason.

Part 2: This 21 day policy gives PayPal (and eBay) even more opportunity to make interest on the money market while at the same time, diverting even more of the risk to sellers, which links to:

Part 3: Buyers by default, usually win in PayPal disputes. In the world of PayPal, unless you spend extra for tracking or upgraded shipping methods, then sellers will mostly lose, since they are the ones who shoulder all the risk, not PayPal themselves. Even if the buyer claims to not receive the item even though they did, and thus initiates a chargeback, PayPal will allow money to be returned back to the buyer, using the seller's money. So now the seller is out of money and out of the item sold.

There's very little good to speak of about eBay these days.

[monkeychemist]

1) The other day I got this ALERT:



We recently learned that someone was using an account to bid on items without the account owner's permission. For this reason, we have canceled all bids on the following listing:

110263109625 - PSX Wild ARMs complete PS1 PSone Playstation

All associated fees have been credited to your account. Please note that we're working with the account owner to prevent any additional unauthorized activity.

Unfortunately, we're not able to automatically relist the above item for you. To relist the item, you'll need to use either the Sell Your Item process on eBay, or another listing service.

If you have any concerns or questions, you can contact us by clicking "Help" at the top of any eBay page.

We're sorry for any inconvenience, and we thank you for your patience and cooperation.

Sincerely,

eBay Customer Support

So by the time I got this alert, I had received the payment and sent the item. I wrote to them talking about what happened and no answer...So if they continue the claim with Paypal they will probably get their money back and I will loose my game. AWESOME!

2) A few years ago one of my credit cards expired. It was the primary on the Paypal account and so I added the new version and tried to delete the old one. Well, that was a huge mistake as that locked me out of my paypal account!! I had to call the morons at customer service fax a copy of my driver's license. Why? what does that prove? nothing.. and a month later I was able to access my account.

well, FUCK YOU paypal and ebay...unfortunately they are virtually a monopoly and all I can do is bend over and take it like a school girl.

I would love to use gamegavel but there's never anyone bidding it seems...

[carlcarlson]

So by the time I got this alert, I had received the payment and sent the item. I wrote to them talking about what happened and no answer...So if they continue the claim with Paypal they will probably get their money back and I will loose my game. AWESOME!


Pretty much the exact same thing happened to me a few years ago, except the item I "sold" was a PSP, so that was a pretty big hit. There are just WAY too many ways for sellers to get screwed. I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often.

[Dragon Warrior Jasen]

Monkey,

I think people dont bid because the prices start out so high at times. If you have good things... they get bid on. My Chase The Chuckwagon is sitting at $5.50 with 9 bids and plenty of time to go.

I have faith that it will end at a decent price.

Carl... I feel your pain. They are really overdoing it at eBay and it is time for a change, but WE have to be the folks to invoke the change. Between them and PayPal, it makes me sick at times. Unless I see the most awesome deal I can think of, I pass... I had someone sell me somthing then "mail it" but it never arrived. They claimed they used a mailing store, but didnt have a receipt. I (stupidly) waited till the 8 week point to raise a stink with eBay and PayPal, and they said too bad. I only waited that long because my mailing address is FPO and they sent it Priority whic does take that long at times to get her by the ship.

This why I made a point to have a lot of various payment options available when I sell, and for others when they sell at GG... that way you can really give them the FU and use Google Checkout instead!

[ryborg]

There is a HOLD on one of my payments because my reputation is in question. I'm sorry? I have 99% satisfaction and all of my stupid ratings are above 4.6.

This was one of ebay's changes two months ago. Your payment being held was most likely due to the category you listed it in. Ebay has a list of categories they deem "potentially unsafe" and ALL payments are held for 21 days or until the buyer leaves a positive.

Ebay/Paypal gets away with this BS due to their ridiculous user agreement all users had to agree to when they signed up. Basically, it allows ebay/PP to do whatever they want, whenever they want and customers have to take it, because they agreed to the user agreement.


Thanks Paypal, for rewarding me for my six years of faithful business.I'm an original member of Paypal, back in 1999-2000ish, when it was known as x.com. They still routinely screw with me and talk down to me over the phone, as if I have no understanding of their policies.


Part 3. A game I sold last month never got to it's destination (or at least that's what I'm told). Luckily I kept the receipt from the post office. I'm good to go right? Wrong. Unfortunately, this has been a rule forever. You're only covered if you have an actual tracking number, and more recently, the tracking number must show that it's been *delivered.*

Last week, someone scammed $60 from me using this method. I use Paypal shipping, which includes a DC number on all packages shipped, and I ship directly to the buyer's confirmed address, so you'd think I'd be covered if there was a problem, right? Nope.

The buyer said he never got the item, in writing similar to that of a 9 year old. The tracking number shows that the package was processed at the buyer's post office, but not delivered. Either the mailman forgot to scan the item at the point of delivery, or it's at the post office waiting to be picked up. I figured I'd be okay since it arrived at the buyer's zip code.

Not so much. I LOST the dispute, which means I lost the item and the money. About an hour after I lost the dispute, I also got a neg. This was clearly my fault, right? I left a positive feedback warning others about this guy, but ebay removed it a few minutes later, because sellers aren't allowed to leave "negative feedback comments" as positives. Later, I did a non-paying bidder dispute because I no longer had payment, but ebay canceled the dispute. Awesome.

I called Paypal, furious, and they were no help. Without much badgering, I got the phone rep to admit that anyone can win a Paypal dispute if there's a postal error like that. I really wish I had recorded that phone call. I also called the buyer's PO, and they weren't any help either.

Ebay has been a cesspool since their May 08 changes. This last month has been the worst for me in nearly 10 years of selling. People aren't paying in record numbers because there's no penalty, buyers are leaving retarded bad feedback in droves, ebay/PP raised fees making profit margins even slimmer, the economy is ass which means Americans aren't buying the entertainment-related crap I'm selling, etc etc etc.

I don't even feel like updating my blog anymore. It used to be entertaining when I'd get stupid emails from dumbasses. Now damn near every customer is an illiterate mongoloid and now it's costing me time and money. What fun is that?

[carlcarlson]

This was one of ebay's changes two months ago. Your payment being held was most likely due to the category you listed it in. Ebay has a list of categories they deem "potentially unsafe" and ALL payments are held for 21 days or until the buyer leaves a positive.

Actually, every item I list is in the video game category. I know that is one of the "at-risk" categories, but that still doesn't explain why 20+ payments went through only to have the one be put on hold.

It's good to hear I'm not the only one getting hosed. Well, not "good", but you know what I mean. I guess I'm going to have to start charging extra and getting tracking on every item I sell. That is going to be really annoying.

As for that Paypal thing, that is total BS. I would have completely gone off. I mean what more can you do short of walk the package to their front door and take a Polaroid? I actually got an email from Paypal today with a little survey about how my resolution experience went. "Why thank you for asking, I would love to tell you."

[LucidDefender]

This was one of ebay's changes two months ago. Your payment being held was most likely due to the category you listed it in. Ebay has a list of categories they deem "potentially unsafe" and ALL payments are held for 21 days or until the buyer leaves a positive.

Ebay/Paypal gets away with this BS due to their ridiculous user agreement all users had to agree to when they signed up. Basically, it allows ebay/PP to do whatever they want, whenever they want and customers have to take it, because they agreed to the user agreement.

I'm an original member of Paypal, back in 1999-2000ish, when it was known as x.com. They still routinely screw with me and talk down to me over the phone, as if I have no understanding of their policies.

Unfortunately, this has been a rule forever. You're only covered if you have an actual tracking number, and more recently, the tracking number must show that it's been *delivered.*

Last week, someone scammed $60 from me using this method. I use Paypal shipping, which includes a DC number on all packages shipped, and I ship directly to the buyer's confirmed address, so you'd think I'd be covered if there was a problem, right? Nope.

The buyer said he never got the item, in writing similar to that of a 9 year old. The tracking number shows that the package was processed at the buyer's post office, but not delivered. Either the mailman forgot to scan the item at the point of delivery, or it's at the post office waiting to be picked up. I figured I'd be okay since it arrived at the buyer's zip code.

Not so much. I LOST the dispute, which means I lost the item and the money. About an hour after I lost the dispute, I also got a neg. This was clearly my fault, right? I left a positive feedback warning others about this guy, but ebay removed it a few minutes later, because sellers aren't allowed to leave "negative feedback comments" as positives. Later, I did a non-paying bidder dispute because I no longer had payment, but ebay canceled the dispute. Awesome.

I called Paypal, furious, and they were no help. Without much badgering, I got the phone rep to admit that anyone can win a Paypal dispute if there's a postal error like that. I really wish I had recorded that phone call. I also called the buyer's PO, and they weren't any help either.

Ebay has been a cesspool since their May 08 changes. This last month has been the worst for me in nearly 10 years of selling. People aren't paying in record numbers because there's no penalty, buyers are leaving retarded bad feedback in droves, ebay/PP raised fees making profit margins even slimmer, the economy is ass which means Americans aren't buying the entertainment-related crap I'm selling, etc etc etc.

I don't even feel like updating my blog anymore. It used to be entertaining when I'd get stupid emails from dumbasses. Now damn near every customer is an illiterate mongoloid and now it's costing me time and money. What fun is that?

This happened to me once. I actually called the Post Office and they had the package. They had attempted delivery multiple times, and the person never came to pick up the item. I had them send it back to me; the bastard didn't talk to me, never told me it didn't come, and filed a charge back against me. He had 0 feedback, so I suspect he was hoping it wasn't going to have DC and insurance, get the IPod then do a charge back.

[TonyB80]

I've just had this happen to me as well.

A French Buyer doesn't pay for the game until 2.5 weeks after the auction has ended (and on the last day of the non-paying bidder claim). The game sold for £2.50.

I posted the game the next day, mainly because i had other games to post. I only usually get a proof of posting to show that I've posted it.

7 days later I get a paypal claim saying it hasn't received the game. no communication as when I posted it or anything. I emailed through paypal stating when I posted and saying that it may take up to 2 weeks. The french post is suppose to worst the the UK post. He says fine. today i get an email from Paypal saying that the claim has been escalated. It's only 4 days after my last email.

I know there's no point talking to Paypal as they will just say that the buyer will win. But it F**ks me off that

a) buyers can take ages to pay and you can do nothing about apart from file a non-paying bidder alert and then wait 8 days before you can relist.

b) buyers can file paypal claims, and paypal / ebay won't take into account slow paying buyers, non-communicating buyers etc.

c) you can't leave feedback saying that a buyer is slow paying or anything anymore.

Sorry Rant over

[ryborg]

Sorry Rant over

Amazing, huh? You do nothing wrong, and you're probably going to lose the item AND your money. You might even get a neg for your trouble, too.

The truly incredible part of this all is that many ebayers who only buy still insist that the sellers have all the power in terms of a transaction. Give me a break.

[TonyB80]

You don't realise how stacked in favour of the buyer ebay / paypal really is until you start selling more than an a handful of items.

I wouldn't mind giving the guy a partial refund just for the value of the game is it hadn't turned up in say 4 weeks but it bugs me is having to refund the postage when I have a certificate of posting which proves I posted it and it has just got lost in the post. I can get the value of the game back from Royal Mail by filing an item lost in post form but you can't the postage back.

[SpyHunter]

It always amazes me how people hate PayPal but continue to do business with them. Close your account and take money orders or continue to use PayPal and live with the bullshit. It doesn't seem that PayPal is going to change their policies, they have you over a barrel and they know it.

I closed my account a couple of years ago. Yes its a pain in the ass sometimes, but I never have to deal with petty shit like this.

End of my rant. LOL

[Vroomfunkel]

I know there's no point talking to Paypal as they will just say that the buyer will win. But it F**ks me off that

I had almost exactly the same experience with a french buyer, but the game was more like £20 than £2. I replied to the guy to say that I would submit a standard compensation claim to cover the loss if he would provide details for the claim form. He never replied.

Fortunately I withdraw all the money from my Paypal account as regularly as possible. So although he won the dispute, he never got the money - Paypal put my account in deficit and made all kinds of threats, but I just ditched the account and opened a new one - with a different credit card and different bank account. Have used this one ever since - but I still withdraw all my money regularly in case it happens again.

If there's one thing I despise, it's scammers - and I sure as hell will make it as difficult as possible for them to get anything out of me, try though they might.

[ryborg]

End of my rant.

Unfortunately, if you sell more than one or two things at a time, you HAVE to have PP. It's too ingrained as a way of life on ebay. What would a buyer rather do, click the mouse three times to pay, or write out a check, pay for a stamp, drop it off in a mailbox and wait an additional week for the item to arrive? If you sell and don't accept PP, you simply won't get the bids to make selling worthwhile. Not even close.

Just because PP is a necessary evil doesn't mean sellers can't bitch about them. They do some downright rotten things to customers that, user agreement or not, they should be called out on.

[SpyHunter]

Unfortunately, if you sell more than one or two things at a time, you HAVE to have PP. It's too ingrained as a way of life on ebay. What would a buyer rather do, click the mouse three times to pay, or write out a check, pay for a stamp, drop it off in a mailbox and wait an additional week for the item to arrive? If you sell and don't accept PP, you simply won't get the bids to make selling worthwhile. Not even close.

Just because PP is a necessary evil doesn't mean sellers can't bitch about them. They do some downright rotten things to customers that, user agreement or not, they should be called out on.

I absolutely agree. The problem is that people bitch but still use the service so PayPal doesn't care because they are getting paid. If enough people closed their accounts, they would be forced to change their bullshit policies.

[Scissors]

SpyHunter, do you realize that you're not allowed to sell video games on eBay without accepting Paypal? It's one of the changes they recently made. If people close their accounts, they won't be able to sell games anymore.

[SpyHunter]

SpyHunter, do you realize that you're not allowed to sell video games on eBay without accepting Paypal? It's one of the changes they recently made. If people close their accounts, they won't be able to sell games anymore.

Nope, I didn't realize that. I guess I should know what I am talking about before I open my mouth, huh? LOL

Its been a while since I sold a game on E-Bay. I guess I won't be selling any anytime soon since I refuse to do business with PayPal.

[ryborg]

If enough people closed their accounts, they would be forced to change their bullshit policies.

This would absolutely never, ever, *ever* work, because sellers are not going to lose 90% of their bids to further a cause that has no chance of succeeding. Ebay owns Paypal. They're not going anywhere. Until Google or some other huge internet entity opens up a legit auctionhouse competitor, the system is going to stay shitty the way it is.

[megasdkirby]

carlcarlson,

I am very sorry for everything you have passed, and I feel your pain. I hope you have not passed through that again. However, I will like to point out a few things. I hope you don't mind.

I don't have any tracking information, it was an $8 game (I know many of you will frown on this, but I sell a LOT of stuff and getting tracking on everything really adds up).

Always ask for Delivery Confirmation. ALWAYS. Let the buyer pay for it. Ask them for the $0.75 or so it costs to add it. NEVER send an item without it. This is your "security blanket", sort to speaks. I will mention, however, that even with this, things may get awry, but at least you have some proof in your favor.

Then tonight I get on and she's left me negative feedback. And because of ebay's genius new feedback system, I can't even leave her a neutral.

Why do you want to retaliate against her? True, you are not happy. I understand that completely. But you do know that it is because of retaliation feedback that Ebay changed the rules. Where I work, I get returns every day, and that affects my paycheck (I'm under commission). Yet I never want to take it out on the buyer. Just let it go: there is no need to ever retaliate (unless it's a deadbeat buyer, which then I agree you should).

So to summarize, I had a receipt, I refunded the purchase price and shipping, I lost the game, I lost the cost to ship it to her, and I got a negative feedback.

ALWAYS insure your package. Even if the item costs 5 cents, just ensure it. Tell the buyer to pay for it. Demand it. This is another protection blanket of yours. If something should occur, you can file a claim and get your money back. True, this won't protect you against negatives, but at least you don't loose your money.

Ok, even if you have Delivery Confirmation, you can still loose a claim. You can submit it, but you are not out of the woods yet. If the code does not tell Paypal it was delivered, you lost. This happened to me: I ordered an item and the DC code stayed at the "...left our facility..." message and never changed. It never arrived. The seller insulted me and said they would win because they provided a tracking number (DC number). Paypal ruled in my favor because of what I mentioned previously.

I know it sucks. Recently, I am very apprehensive of buying at ebay. That is why I rather stick to DP. :D:D:D

ruborg,

NEVER leave retaliation feedback. From what I can tell, the buyer did nothing wrong. Why warn others about his "practices"? He never got the item, at least regarding the status used with DC. You should not penalize him for that. You really can't prove he scammed you (maybe he did, but without concrete evidence, it's not possible). Also, doing this (leaving retaliation feedback) can hamper your own account if Ebay continues to edit your "positive negatives". I would just curse the buyer, voodoo him (lol) or whatever, but never leave that type of feedback, because it would then have the adverse affect. And unfortunately, nor can you file a NPB dispute, because the buyer did pay and it's in their (Ebay/Paypal) records.

Trust me, I know this all sucks. I know the recent changes are horrid at best, and are really making Ebay bad. Still, you can protect yourself a bit with insurance and stuff. And trust me...a Post Office does not like loosing an insured parcel...

But guys, don't worry...all this sillyness with Ebay/Paypal will end sooner than anyone thinks. Because the changes will backfire and they will loose millions...then they will take Donohue and prostitute him to get some cash back. :P (sorry for the vulgarity, but people really hate him...)

[Mayhem]

Then people just go for the similar item that costs much less to ship (because it doesn't have insurance costs lumped on top). Sad but true...

[megasdkirby]

So true.

I've been on the ebay community boards, and there are plenty of people who will refuse to pay extra for shipping. When told it was for USPS Insurance or a third party insurer, they protest and refuse to pay the extra amount, stating that "it's not needed".

Then something happens and they blame the seller. Most of the time, it's not the sellers fault: it's the cruddy USPS system.

But like mentioned, the seller can't blame the buyer for them not receiving the items either. True, the buyer could be mean and try to con the seller. But not every buyer is like that and obtaining evidence of fraud is needed to purely identify a con/fraud.

Still, all buyers should be forced into paying insurance.

Oh, and what about those buyers who agree to the shipping terms and then complain afterwards? Like a buyer who clearly saw that shipping was $5 then after he AGREES and pays, he leaves a negative for "high shipping cost".

Or the buyer that does not read the item description. One seller focuses only on selling box, manuals or the combination of both for video games, He clearly mentions that the game is NOT INCLUDED (in caps also) and even has an audio tune playing that says the same thing! Yet the buyers bid thinking the game is included? Then they neg the seller for their own mistake. Wha???????????

[monkeychemist]

SpyHunter, do you realize that you're not allowed to sell video games on eBay without accepting Paypal? It's one of the changes they recently made. If people close their accounts, they won't be able to sell games anymore.

Actually, I did not know that either. Maybe we could start a class action suit against eBay and Paypal for having a monopoly their videogame sales forcing us to pay them twice for the same sale. What do you think?

[megasdkirby]

I vote for Yahoo! Auctions triumphant return!

[Volcanon]

Yahoo Auctions here in Japan is SOOO much better than Feebay.

Even though the payment methods are less safe (yes there's credit card, no, they don't accept my canadian card, so everything goes through bank transfers and post office), I've never been ripped.

As a buyer and seller it's great.

[ryborg]

ruborg,

words words words

I pretty much disagree with everything you said here and in this thread. I'm not going to go on a point by point breakdown because that would take hours.

Insurance is roughly $2 an item. Buyers won't pay for it and won't bid if it's mandatory (jacking up shipping prices). Taking it out of my own pocket is ridiculous. I sell to make money, not throw it away on insuring $10 packages. I do make it mandatory for all items over $100, but that's not what most of my items sell for.

Thanks for telling me to never leave retaliation feedback for a buyer (not that I can anymore). Judging from your words, you've never sold anything on ebay before. If I sell a used jersey and clearly describe it as such, and a buyer buys it and leaves a negative feedback of "jersey wuz not new bad seller," I shouldn't be able to do anything back? Situations like this arise all the time, almost always because the buyer did not read my short, five line item description. Give me a break.

[Rev. Link]

That's not really true about having to accept PayPal if you sell games, is it?

If you all are having so many problems, then just stop using eBay, period. As long as people keep using their services, they keep making money and don't care one bit about how badly they're screwing you over. The only way to talk to businesses like that is with your money. That is, stop giving it to them! The more people that do, the less they make and eventually they'll be forced to make changes.

[ryborg]

That's not really true about having to accept PayPal if you sell games, is it?

Unfortunately, yes.


If you all are having so many problems, then just stop using eBay, period.

I still sell because I can make a good sum of money for very little work. I've been selling since 1998 and I have it down to a science. I have connections everywhere and my stuff basically sells itself. If there was a legitimate ebay competitor, you better believe I'd be there in a second.

These problems suck and it pisses me off short-term, but it's going to take more than a few minor scams and a bunch of stupid negs to get me to stop.

[Rev. Link]

It's not really the scams and negs that I'm talking about, but rather eBay's business practices. They know the way their customers get treated, both by them and by each other, and they laugh all the way to the bank thinking about it.

Don't get me wrong, I still use eBay, though really only to buy, mostly. But then I rarely ever have any problems. If I had the kinds of things happening to me that some of the folks here have been complaining about, you can bet I'd be doing more than complaining.

[gepeto]

On june 24 I won an auction for 33.95 Buy it now. I pay immediately. They had ID verified buy the sellers name. June 25 I get an email from ebay loss prevention Listing is removed.

I file a complaint with paypal. They say the standard were are investigating. We can't release info. I get the standard email today you won but we were unable to retrieve funds.

If they are supposidly holding funds 21 days how are funds unrecoverable? And what is ebays responsibility with the so called ID verified. The pull a listing and you hear nothing more about it like it never exsisted when they need to close it and preserve it.

I never got any money back from paypal in 3 previous incidents. What dam good is paypal. A total waste.

[megasdkirby]

Insurance is roughly $2 an item. Buyers won't pay for it and won't bid if it's mandatory (jacking up shipping prices). Taking it out of my own pocket is ridiculous. I sell to make money, not throw it away on insuring $10 packages. I do make it mandatory for all items over $100, but that's not what most of my items sell for.

Nor should you use your own money to pay for it. That is not what I said earlier. You can add insurance as part of your shipping fee automatically, which protects you from unfortunate events. Even if the buyer does not like it, though for them. The important thing is for you to protect yourself.


Thanks for telling me to never leave retaliation feedback for a buyer (not that I can anymore). Judging from your words, you've never sold anything on ebay before. If I sell a used jersey and clearly describe it as such, and a buyer buys it and leaves a negative feedback of "jersey wuz not new bad seller," I shouldn't be able to do anything back? Situations like this arise all the time, almost always because the buyer did not read my short, five line item description. Give me a break.

I've never sold on Ebay, but that does not mean I know nothing from the business world, because alas, that is my job! To sell! And any return affects my paycheck.

And I am not talking about buyers who won't read the description, since there are many of them around. There is nothing you can do about that.

What I am trying to say is that there is no need to leave retaliation feedback only because they left you a negative or neutral. If a buyer does leave you negative feedback (an honest one) for an error made on your part, and you acknowledge fault, should the buyer be reprimanded with a negative as well?

[ryborg]

You can add insurance as part of your shipping fee automatically, which protects you from unfortunate events. Even if the buyer does not like it, though for them.

No, not tough for them. Tough for me, the seller. Higher shipping costs means fewer bids at a lower cost. This is the third time it's been mentioned in this thread. Why is it so hard to understand?


If a buyer does leave you negative feedback (an honest one) for an error made on your part, and you acknowledge fault, should the buyer be reprimanded with a negative as well?

Of course not, and no one's arguing that. But how often do good sellers make legit mistakes? I think in 10 years of selling and tens of thousands of items shipped, I've only shipped the wrong item once or twice, and it's never ended with negative feedback on either end. I can't remember a time where I've shipped an item late either.

[Press_Start]

Then why not take your businesses to DP and other gaming forums?

I've bought and sold many items on here and had not so much a speck of trouble.
1. Every customer on here is a friendly, open-minded, familiar face you can trust.
2. No middleman to take a cut when posting or making a sale.
3. You make the rules as to how sales will be done without paying a penny.

Have you guy thought about selling on Craigslist?

[unwinddesign]

The reason to sell on eBay is it's fast and convenient. Selling on DP is a major pain in the ass, since it takes like 5 PMs per transaction, and a lot of people can't get all the details straight...plus on top of that, everyone wants a bargain. No offense to anyone here, but unless I'm high as shit on crack I'm not going to take a $20 note for Mars Matrix.

...but that's the type of offers you get on here. Not a criticism, just a fact that you get more money on eBay with less time.

That being said, I've sold some 500 items on eBay the past two months, and have had three problems:

1) Someone didn't read my desciption and thought a game disc described as "ugly" somehow equated to being in average condition (neutral feedback).
2) Someone who didn't speak English bought my game, and then made up a bunch of BS about the condition and left me neutral feedback...in Spanish (on eBay US)
3) Someone just left me negative feedback because they told me that "my return policy meant jack to them" and that I would "force them to send the item back on their own dollar" (mind you this was without consulting me). I refunded their money even after they left me a negative.

I've never, ever gotten a chargeback filed against me, and I've gotten one Paypal claim filed against me that was my own fault (not shipping an item out for over a month -- not proud of that, but w/e being at college makes some things a bitch sometimes). Paypal does screw you and eBay has nixed some of my listings before, but it all goes with the territory. I think if you work with these "idiot" buyers instead of being exasperated with them, it does wonders...I receive tons of stupid questions/requests etc. but I just try to answer them as seriously and nicely as possible. I don't require insurance, I just use Paypal shipping for everything (which has its ups and downs, that's for sure...) and get the delivery confirmation. I think one package has been lost in transit out of 2000 I've sent via USPS...either I'm damn lucky or other people are doing something wrong.

I mean seriously, if I don't have that many problems with eBay, Paypal and eBay members (and I'm VERY confrontational -- believe me on that; although I've reduced it a lot through this selling business), I don't see what the problem is with your stuff. Different markets, perhaps?

And to the people who keep suggesting insurance: lol, no. No one will bid if your shipping is past a certain threshold...don't ask me why, but the sweet spot on N64 is $4...any more than that and it's a bitch to unload them. Now, mind you, they weigh as much as a Sega Dreamcast game...but I can charge $5 on the shipping for a Sega Dreamcast game with no problem. I have no idea wtf that's about.

On a final note, eBay will change. Their growth is slowing and Wall Street is iffy on their future prospects. The Skype purchase did jack for them, and while Paypal basically mints money, eBay can't keep growing at astronomical rates...especially when it seems like about 50% of the new eBayers never pay for auctions (seriously, I wish I could just ban the assholes from buying my shit).

[carlcarlson]

Whoa, lots of input since I last checked this thread.


I've never sold on Ebay

Ok, no offense kirby, but you don't really know what you're talking about here. If I was to start adding in extra charges on my shipping my sales would tank. Period. I can't just "make the buyer pay for it", because the buyer will just opt to purchase somebody else's game. I've got a great reputation and that does help, but the reality is that most people aren't going to choose a $20 game when they can get it for $18.

As for the retaliatory feedback, it's true that you shouldn't automatically leave a negative if you receive one. That really is just retaliation. But do you really think this buyer deserved a positive? Did I deserve a negative? I just wanted to leave a neutral explaining the situation. "buyer got full refund and left neg despite PO reciept" Something to that affect. It's not her fault the package didn't arrive but it's not mine either. Basically she seemed to fail to understand that, which is why I felt she deserved a neutral.


Then why not take your businesses to DP and other gaming forums?

I've bought and sold many items on here and had not so much a speck of trouble.
1. Every customer on here is a friendly, open-minded, familiar face you can trust.
2. No middleman to take a cut when posting or making a sale.
3. You make the rules as to how sales will be done without paying a penny.

Have you guy thought about selling on Craigslist?

I'm guessing you haven't sold much on ebay, or at least not with the intent to turn a profit. Yes DP is friendly, but it is almost impossible to get a good price for your stuff here unless it's something really niche. And craigslist... don't even get me started. Everyone on craigslist is looking for a deal. Actually, make that a STEAL. Nobody wants to pay the price you are asking. I have successfully sold a few games there, but mostly you'll get offers of $150 for your $300 Xbox 360. Believe me, I've tried both DP and Clist and there really is no comparison to ebay.

[megasdkirby]

Carlcarlson,

I agree that with you on not forcing insurance unto shipping costs. But with recent half-thought Ebay changes, there has to be a way for a seller to protect themselves. I always thought that if a buyer rejects shipping, then Paypal/Ebay would side with the seller if the item arrives damaged or lost in the mail. But I found out that it's quite the contrary: no matter what the buyer decides, it's always the seller's fault, which I find totally unfair. I always add insurance in case of an unforseable event. But I can't honestly blame the seller for something the PO did. Yet there are many buyers who do. I understand about sales in general, but it seems Ebay does not. This is why I mentioned about adding insurance to all packages (make the buyer paid for it), because even though the seller won't be able to escape the unfair negative, at least they can recoop their lost money.

It is also true that the buyer does not deserve a positive feedback rating if something should go awry. Although many would state that the buyer's duties are finished when he/she pays (and thus seller should leave feedback immediately), I don't because as a buyer, I feel it is my responsibility to let the seller know everything arrived intact. If something happened, I need to isolate the cause, not play the "blame-game" right away. But many buyers seem to do this frequently, and I think this will cost Ebay it's own demise. I would not leave feedback, but that's just me. And I do like your neutral feedback thing, but with Ebay's neutral definition now being a negative (which is dumb), nothing is fair anymore.

For some reason, I can't stand CraigList. It looks so generic and I keep hearing bad things about it. DP has been fantastic so far, so I can't really say anything negative for the time being, but Ebay and DP are two totally different things. So I agree with you, carl.


No, not tough for them. Tough for me, the seller. Higher shipping costs means fewer bids at a lower cost. This is the third time it's been mentioned in this thread. Why is it so hard to understand?

It's not that it is hard to understand. I do so perfectly. What I am trying to imply is that sellers should be able to protect themselves against bad situations, and insurance is the key. And like I mentioned previously, even though it won't protect you from a negative, at least you can get your money back (that is, if your PO helps out...).


Of course not, and no one's arguing that. But how often do good sellers make legit mistakes? I think in 10 years of selling and tens of thousands of items shipped, I've only shipped the wrong item once or twice, and it's never ended with negative feedback on either end. I can't remember a time where I've shipped an item late either.

Totally agree. You should not be punished, because something bad happend during route. But ever since the change in Ebay policies, bad buyers have become rampant and resorting to fraud. Yet on the Ebay message boards, I have seen posts over posts of sellers giving negative feedback to good buyers when they leave honest negatives. It's sad that some would stoop so low, but if the buyer deserves the negative for bad actions, they I agree. Sellers should be able to leave negative feedback for deadbeats, but not for honest buyers.


And to the people who keep suggesting insurance: lol, no. No one will bid if your shipping is past a certain threshold...don't ask me why, but the sweet spot on N64 is $4...any more than that and it's a bitch to unload them. Now, mind you, they weigh as much as a Sega Dreamcast game...but I can charge $5 on the shipping for a Sega Dreamcast game with no problem. I have no idea wtf that's about.

unwinddesign,

There is nothing wrong with suggesting insurance. You can place it as an option so that the buyer can decide whether or not to add it in. It's for everyone's protection (but mainly sellers). The problem here lies with Paypal/Ebay, as stated previously. No matter if the buyer adds insurance or not, the seller is responsible, which I find wrong. Not the seller's fault for USPS mistakes. But for physical damage? That is to the eye of the beholder. If the buyer does not add insurance, he/she takes the risk. The seller should not be penalized for that.

[ryborg]

Then why not take your businesses to DP and other gaming forums?

Mostly because I, and many other sellers, don't *just* sell video game stuff. Recently, video game related sales have been around 5% of what I sell. I post on a million message boards and I don't check them all every day. Having a selling thread everywhere could really get chaotic.


Have you guy thought about selling on Craigslist?

I've still never had a successful transaction on CL, buying OR selling. I've posted some really good items with no serious offers, and whenever I've noticed a cool item, the seller wanted beyond top dollar for it. I like the CL concept (especially the lack of fees), but it's just not practical to post a lot of stuff there.

[unwinddesign]

I do have optional insurance. But what you were suggesting before, i.e. mandatory insurance, would be suicide for my business. And anyone else's. That $1.50 is something most are unwilling to pay...

...and then there are those folks who buy a $2 game and insure it. Who knows why.

[megasdkirby]

True there.

The problem with buyers is Ebay itself. Ebay does not teach buyers about the ins and outs of Ebay. True, buyers must accept a "policy", but that hardly is equivalent to giving buyers lessons.

Ebay will pay for their new "revised" rules. Just give it time...

[Cornelius]

I
...and then there are those folks who buy a $2 game and insure it. Who knows why.
Ha! I was thinking the same thing. These people always leave me scratching my head. I've taken to 'self' insuring these.

[carlcarlson]

Ha! I was thinking the same thing. These people always leave me scratching my head. I've taken to 'self' insuring these.

Those are the people who think that buying something from another person (as opposed to a store) is likely going to end in a scam. I have a couple friends like this and it drives me crazy. I have probably spent close to $15k on ebay and have lost maybe $100 out of all of that. And they know this, heck they see me buying and selling stuff all the time. Yet they refuse to believe it. I show them the prices, walk them step by step through the process, but nope, no dice. Gah, I'm getting frustrated just thinking about it!

[megasdkirby]

...and then there are those folks who buy a $2 game and insure it. Who knows why.

It might be silly if a game is really cheap...definetly not worth insurance.

But when it is an item that you know is of high value, insurance is definitely a must.

For example, if you were lucky and scored a brand new copy of a rare video game, one that goes much higher, wouldn't you insure it even though it cost you around $3?

I know I definitely would.

[unwinddesign]

We're talking insurance on stuff like Powerpuff Girls Chemical X-traction, cart only. Buy it now. I don't run auctions (generally).

[carlcarlson]

From an email I just received:

"Improved seller protection from PayPal will soon provide all eBay sellers the same great coverage currently offered only to PowerSellers. Starting in September, all sellers will be protected on eligible transactions against claims, charge backs and reversals for unauthorized payments, and merchandise not received for items they ship to buyers in 190 markets worldwide--all at no extra cost. Even better: no more coverage limit. Plus you're covered for any shipping address--confirmed or unconfirmed--for items sold on eBay as long as you ship to the address on the transactions details page."

But then this (https://www.paypal-promo.com/protection/terms/#Seller) page says "Seller protection does not provide protection for Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals or for items that you deliver in person."

Hmm... so what does all of that mean? Who do we believe? Or maybe I'm just missing something...

[y-bot]

My work account has been a Power Seller for years and Paypal takes our money all the time because of claims from international buyers. I'm not sure what protection Power Sellers are supposed to have but we have not been receiving it. The whole Power Seller system is a joke and always has been.

y-bot

[megasdkirby]

We're talking insurance on stuff like Powerpuff Girls Chemical X-traction, cart only. Buy it now. I don't run auctions (generally).

True! I would use that as a door stop! :)


Starting in September, all sellers will be protected on eligible transactions against claims, charge backs and reversals for unauthorized payments, and merchandise not received for items they ship to buyers

Interesting, but I doubt Ebay will do that. Or they will find some kind of loophole to fall through.

[monkeychemist]

I have to say the main difference between eBay and DP is that with eBay you don't have to name a price. You just put 99C and it will go to what it's worth. With DP you have to come up with a price and name it. So if you go to low you get ripped off and if you go with what you think it is worth, you get laughed at...so it is very intimidating..

Now, that being said, eBay sucks. I have been selling off my stuff to get a PS3 lately. So everything so far has been great. However on one of my auctions, something bad happened. The winner had 0 feedback and joined about a week before the auction. No money, no email. I sent him 3-4 messages and nothing. I called for an unpaid auction refund and he has 7 days to reply. So hopefully he does, then pays and everything is all cool...but most likely not. So I will have to relist, wait another 3-4 days, maybe it won't go as high as the last, who knows? And the bastard will probably leave me my first negative feedback. yes, that is 1 bad out of 111 good. It's not a big deal, but it F@#%ing sucks... and I can't do anything about him. I can't say he's a deadbeat seller or anything.

well, maybe i'll give gamegavel a try after all...

[carlcarlson]

And the bastard will probably leave me my first negative feedback.

If he's a non-paying buyer he can't leave you a negative. If he does ebay will remove it. Of course you can't leave him a negative either, which makes absolutely no sense.

[channelmaniac]

If you pay by PayPal then fund your purchases by credit card. If you get scammed as a buyer then do a chargeback through your CC company.

*note* I've seen posts on forums claiming the Discover Card won't do this chargeback - YMMV

As for selling, eBay has turned into such a shithole that I stopped selling as soon as they announced their feedback policy changes. I still buy things there as they still have some great deals, but screw selling there anymore.

My website is getting enough traffic that I can sell there now. The only slow part is selling refurbished game boards. eBay was a great place for that but not anymore.

[kainemaxwell]

These new policies suck. Sold an item, buyer never paid and filed a dispute, still no contact from the buyer. Closed the dispute and now I'm apparently getting a final fee credit and the buyer gets an unpaid item strike (dunno how that works or where that is shown on the buyer's ebay info page). Relisted item and realized I can't even leave neg feedback because of this either.

[ryborg]

...the buyer gets an unpaid item strike (dunno how that works or where that is shown on the buyer's ebay info page). Relisted item and realized I can't even leave neg feedback because of this either.

Supposedly, if you get three unpaid item strikes from three different sellers, you're suspended. This is not public information, so there's absolutely no way to tell the world that the buyer is a deadbeat. You can't even leave a false positive, because ebay will remove it. This is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about in the big ebay thread in Off-Topic.

[Kaboomer]

Come try out http://www.ChaseTheChuckwagon.com where there is lots of bidding and selling activity.

Since launching only 5 months ago we have listed over 7,000 items and sold over $21,000 in merchandise. And currently we have over 1,000 listings.

Check out this thread to learn all the reasons why you should be using the Chuckwagon :)

http://www.chasingthechuckwagon.com/upload/forumdisplay.php?f=17